Unless customers complain loudly and with their pocketbooks, a public company in an unregulated industry is extremely unlikely to do anything. I think we can realistically only expect PSA to make improvements to catch what these guys are doing if not catching it hurts the bottom line more than the expense of developing methods to detect the alterations. PSA May start to feel that pressure through public complaint from its customers but will only really feel it when the bottom line moves.
If we want a better PSA we have to demand it loudly and clearly.
I don’t think we are that far apart. All I am saying is that there is a difference between 1) voicing proper concern, making constructive suggestions and advising the company that until we see what they come up up with you will probably be limiting additional business and 2) calling for the company to be “punished”, suggesting the company is complicit/uncaring about the issue, stirring up a mob mentality against the company that will only feed on itself, geometrically increase damage and divert the company’s attention from working on some of the issues that need to be addressed.
The vast majority of what has been seen on the message boards so far consists of things in the latter vein, rather than the former. The more that continues the more damage that gets done.
My comments are general and not directed at specific individuals. I’m with 1951wheaties....until evidence to the contrary arises against PSA or until PSA takes woefully inadequate actions and callously blows off feedback complaining about it i will continue to give PSA the benefit of the doubt.
I am as upset by this as the next guy, but I think it is a little silly to think a TPG will get it right 100% of the time. I think the best way to restore confidence is to release a "recall" list. Similar to a car manufacturer. peel the band aid off fast.
@craig44 said:
I am as upset by this as the next guy, but I think it is a little silly to think a TPG will get it right 100% of the time. I think the best way to restore confidence is to release a "recall" list. Similar to a car manufacturer. peel the band aid off fast.
A "recall list" needs to be created, but who's going to do it? PSA may have "missed" a few cards, but they don't know which ones they are.
Who is going to create the list?
Some of these "investigators" have no knowledge of the printing process and are working with some POOR scans.
First of all, I suggest ebay require a high resolution front and back scan of any cards worth over $100.00 (put your own number in here if you don't agree with $100).
While they are at it STOP with the bid retractions!
Here's two reasonable suggestions to help the collector.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Maybe it’s silly to say that PSA will get it right on the first try 100% of the time. It’s not silly to say that PSA should be held accountable for 100% of its misses, because it says it can catch alterations, and doing so is part of its core mission and guarantee. I’m trying but apparently failing to say the latter.
That whole discussion is really a distraction though. Does anyone really think that what has been revealed so far doesn’t require a major response from PSA, both to address what happened and how they intend to prevent it in the future?
On the recall list, that would be comprised of the entire submissions of known card doctors. Pretty sure that’s information PSA possesses.
@graygator said:
It’s silly to say that PSA will get it right on the first try 100% of the time. It’s not silly to say that PSA should be held accountable for 100% of its misses, because it says it can catch alterations, and doing so is part of its core mission and guarantee. I’m trying but apparently failing to say the latter.
That whole discussion is really a distraction though. Does anyone really think that what has been revealed so far doesn’t require a major response from PSA, both to address what happened and how they intend to prevent it in the future?
On the recall list, that would be comprised of the entire submissions of known card doctors. Pretty sure that’s information PSA possesses.
I don't know what kind of job you have, but not too many people or companies can achieve 100% quality. PSA already says it will "fix" the problem of a card that is slabbed with a grade that has been altered. The accountability is there, all you have to do is identify the problem card after they couldn't. Good luck!
I don't even know how PSA exactly looks at cards. I have heard they don't spend a lot of time looking at them. Do they spend more time on "high end" cards than the not so valuable ones? I will agree that it would be nice to understand the grading process in greater detail.
PSA's graders are not supposed to "know" who submits the cards, in reality there has to be an information "trail", but I doubt that they have a list of known card doctors. If they do, sharing it with the public could get them sued.
PSA and the other TPG's are NOT in business to "clean up" the hobby. They are in business to make a profit and they are certainly not going to radically change things and end up losing money.
Try to be realistic. There are ways that cards can be "conserved" that are undetectable. How is anyone supposed to be able to detect the undetectable?
YES any company can and should constantly be trying to improve their service/product.
Let's be a little patient and see what happens.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@doubledragon said:
I think the reason people are upset with PSA is because PSA is a trusted company. People put their hard earned money into that trust. Then they discover that something they spent hundreds or even thousands of dollars on is altered. Where does that leave them now? If I had spent thousands on their cards, I would be angry too. They are trusted. If they did it on purpose or not is irrelevent. There are a lot of people that are hurting right now because they trusted the PSA brand. Yeah, they have a right to be angry. They trusted their brand.
How is it irrelevant whether they colluded with fraudsters or not?? You couldn’t be more wrong.
The 100% thing is a distraction and I’m sorry I brought it up. It obscures the main point, which is that the known alterations to this point are of sufficient number and importance to be concerning on their own, regardless of what you think an acceptable error rate is. The apparent circumstances surrounding their submission are such that it’s reasonable to think, at the very least, that more precautions could have and should have been taken by PSA. Given those things, PSA’s representation that “PSA has created a market in which collectors can participate with complete confidence and trust” no longer rings true to me and a lot of other collectors. It’s up to PSA to restore that confidence and trust. We’ll see what they do.
@craig44 said:
I am as upset by this as the next guy, but I think it is a little silly to think a TPG will get it right 100% of the time. I think the best way to restore confidence is to release a "recall" list. Similar to a car manufacturer. peel the band aid off fast.
A "recall list" needs to be created, but who's going to do it? PSA may have "missed" a few cards, but they don't know which ones they are.
Who is going to create the list?
Some of these "investigators" have no knowledge of the printing process and are working with some POOR scans.
First of all, I suggest ebay require a high resolution front and back scan of any cards worth over $100.00 (put your own number in here if you don't agree with $100).
While they are at it STOP with the bid retractions!
Here's two reasonable suggestions to help the collector.
I think it’s incorrect to try to cast doubt on the work these investigators are doing. They’re finding cards bought by someone that has been known to alter cards for at least the past 15 years. These cards all magically show back up in PWCC auctions in different holders a few months later. All with aligning print marks on the front and pulp marks on the back. for any of the ones that they may get wrong there are so many more that they don’t post because it’s inconclusive or they haven’t run across yet.
This is happening and there isn’t any doubt about it.
First of all, I suggest ebay require a high resolution front and back scan of any cards worth over $100.00 (put your own number in here if you don't agree with $100).
While they are at it STOP with the bid retractions!
Here's two reasonable suggestions to help the collector.
I concur. At minimum, ebay should restrict bid retractions to maybe 1 every 90 days. This stops a large portion of the nonsense virtually overnight. But ebay wont do this because they know what bid retractions are used for and it nets them more revenue. Ebay is a HUGE part of the problem.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
@mexpo75 said:
I really do not think PSA has in cahoots with this whole thing. I do hope there is some way to find out which cards are in question. If this is done I know PSA will do the right thing.
This
You are really adding alot to this conversation, one word at a time.
The people who think that a mob is going after PSA, have probably never bought a thousand dollar card in a PSA holder, only to find out it has been altered.
I will open with a few caveats. First, I have been far more of a frequent reader than poster in these forums. Second, I am not personally going to be substantially financially impacted as my personal PSA involvement is for my collection and is far from high dollar and I would be truly shocked to learn anyone spent the time to attempt alterations to those items. Last, this will be somewhat lengthy and the folks who will feel the pain from following any of this will be the vast majority of us who are not the crooks who are the root cause of this issue.
Seeing this “scandal” now in non-collecting forums and into the investment arena with financial analysts discussing the company itself with potential liabilities (leading to some level of drop in the stock price in recent days) is certainly not the type of press any company wants.
My personal feeling is that PSA remains the unquestioned industry leader and the fact that they are not perfect does nothing to change that. What I do expect (and I think is all that we can reasonably expect) is that they continue their relentless pursuit of perfection and continue to look for ways to remain ahead of those con artists trying to rip off folks and giving our hobby a bad name.
I do think there may be some steps that PSA can announce they are taking in an effort to prevent recurrence of these issues. All of these suggestions vary in degrees of draconian nature (and may be wildly unpopular with some). All of these will negatively impact honest submitters - but that is the nature of so many things in society - the innocent customer suffers due to the nefarious actions of a minority. A theme from the below will in many ways be the end of the “crack and resubmit” practice (under the assumption that anyone who cracks and resubmits only does so because they have altered the item in some way), and if any of the below were implemented it would likely lead to higher costs and longer grading periods due to the greater levels of scrutiny.
On to the proposals – realizing that we as customers either have the option to allow PSA to implement changes to curb alterations or do nothing and complain they are not perfect:
It seems that this may already be in place as more recent submissions now have scans available when executing the search via the PSA certification tracker, but make and maintain a scan of the front and back of all PSA encapsulated items as part of the submission process.
Many of the cards at the heart of this (it appears to me) are numbered, low pop cards. This makes sense since those are easier to be certain that you are looking at the same, exact item. First step would be to determine if PSA has graded the specific card already. If so, then this is clearly a crack and resubmit. PSA then does not re-grade/encapsulate the card – returned as “previously graded.” Passing that review, there would need to be research done on said item. That research would include sales records from auction houses, web-based sellers, etc all searching for images of the specific card in hand in an effort to compare those images to the item submitted looking specifically for evidence of alterations. Any possible evidence (as it does now) results in the item not being graded. Only after that review has been passed does the item move in to the actual grading process.
As part of the grading process, implement some sort of micro imprint not visible without special equipment/knowledge of location (similar in concept to watermarks in currency) that is applied immediately prior to encapsulation. Looking for such an imprint would be the way PSA would determine prior review for cards not in the numbered/low-pop category. If the card has been graded, it does not get reviewed as above – and then follow those steps above – though the research aspect is virtually impossible in most cases. In some cases of “new-to-the-TPG world” cards, perhaps requiring the submitter to provide some sort of providence of the item being submitted is in order. There are no new 1952 Mantles. If one is submitted that has the appearance of being high-grade, then PSA reaches out to the submitter to determine the history of the card. If there is a doubt as to validity for any reason, card is not graded.
If an individual feels that a card was incorrectly graded, the only recourse (since crack and resubmit is no longer an option) is to use the already existent process to have the grade reviewed. PSA would only do that if the item is sent to them in the original, encapsulated form.
Create an analytics team who begins looking for possible negative trends and looks for explanation of such. An earlier post mentioned something like keeping track of submitters with a larger number of submissions rejected. Determine a threshold (as a percentage of total submissions, or percentage of items on a particular submission, or something else) and any submitter who exceeds that threshold is contacted before encapsulation. Should the explanation not be sufficient (defined in whatever manner), then entire submission is rejected out of an abundance of caution. A certain number of such issues (or a particularly egregious one) and you are banned from submitting.
a. A similar analytics review could be done based on submission “type.” As I mentioned at the beginning, I am not a high-dollar submitter. If I suddenly submitted a Mantle, Ryan, Jordan, Brady, etc rookies – maybe that triggers a review.
b. Same type of concept on a new account. Err on the side that a new account coming on board could possibly be someone previously banned just coming in under a new email. Compare names, addresses, and other info on that new account – particularly if that new account immediately submits high-dollar items. Unacceptable results from that review also results in rejection.
None of what I address above will stop trimming (or other alteration) of items that have never been submitted for grading (except possibly those same low-pop, numbered cards that seem to be the ones used as examples of the issue in many cases). BUT, if those alterations are so good that there is no manner to detect them – then who is to possibly say that an item did not roll off the press in the same condition that it was submitted for grading.
@JoeBanzai said:
The accountability is there, all you have to do is identify the problem card after they couldn't. Good luck!
I see this issue as an example of one of the challenges for PSA where there are conflicting interests that need to be carefully balanced to make sure their legal obligations are met.
The fact is that a slabbed card is “legal tender” until it is somehow exposed as being tainted. To what extent is PSA obligated to assist individuals in detecting tainted cards relative to their fiduciary obligations to the shareholders?
Based on past actions in similar situations they have never released a list of potentially affected flip numbers. If they did then some shareholders might try to pursue the company legally for breach of fiduciary duty to properly protect shareholder interests. That’s not an avenue that the officers of a publicly traded company normally want to open up. As much as collectors would like and benefit from such a list I don’t see it as realistic that PSA can provide one. I think we are going to have to rely on whatever has been discovered so far over on BO, and maybe if PWCC is sincere in trying to make things right they could provide information from their records that would allow such a list to be improved, thereby taking PSA itself out of the position of doing something that may be perceived as counter to their own parent’s shareholders interests.
The US government prints money and coins money. They design in countermeasures to prevent counterfeiting. If a counterfeiter starts putting out bogus bucks they privately investigate. There are also some basic tools that go along with the countermeasures that people can use to help identified counterfeits.
I think PSA is in a somewhat analogous situation. I can understand that it may be necessary to do the investigatuons privately. But perhaps they could come up with some additional collector “tools”, such as a publicly available digital “finger print”, that would help people identify potentially tainted items or avoid buying items that they felt were suspect after reviewing them with such tools? I think it far more likely that we will see efforts in this direction.
@CrissCriss said:
I agree with 70ToppsFanatic. The only thing I would add is that there is a hypocritical mob element to some of these forum posts (here and elsewhere) that needs curtailed, either through more aggressive policing or shutting down the forums entirely.
Censorship is not part of a workable solution. It just puts more fuel on the fire.
Overcoming one’s own anxieties and insecurities regarding this situation in the immediate timeframe and having a little patience to give the one stakeholder who can really make a difference sufficient time to try and do so is what is needed.
“Greater is the man who conquers his own demons than a man who taketh a city”
I am looking for PSA to make immediate changes. I do not think they were complicit or did anything wrong. But they did miss a lot of altered cards.
1) Beginning immediately scan the front and back of all graded cards and include on the cert lookup and give collectors the ability to lookup all cards by card and get photos. This will help aid in finding altered cards by the online community and begin to build a database of cards to eventually match against.
2) Invest in technology that tries to match submitted cards to previously graded examples. Provide the likely matches to the graders so they can see if the computer made a correct match and then if alterations occur. While this will take time to develop - provide collectors and stockholders with the budget you plan to spend on R&D towards this goal.
3) For cards above a certain value - hire people to try to match to the database manually until technology can help.
I do not believe PSA has done anything wrong but it has been proven that photo matching of cards is a useful tool to find alterations. I would like to hear PSA’s plan to eventually use this technology to enhance their accuracy.
In the absence of this - as long as PSA honors their guarantee - they will have done nothing wrong. But as the industry leader I hope they are looking to a future that allows them to stop more fraud in the hobby.
Based on past actions in similar situations they have never released a list of potentially affected flip numbers. If they did then some shareholders might try to pursue the company legally for breach of fiduciary duty to properly protect shareholder interests. That’s not an avenue that the officers of a publicly traded company normally want to open up.>
They almost certainly won’t release a list of flip numbers if we don’t demand it and back up that demand with our dollars.
Based on past actions in similar situations they have never released a list of potentially affected flip numbers. If they did then some shareholders might try to pursue the company legally for breach of fiduciary duty to properly protect shareholder interests. That’s not an avenue that the officers of a publicly traded company normally want to open up.>
They almost certainly won’t release a list of flip numbers if we don’t demand it and back up that demand with our dollars.
Ok, I'm not liking this line of thought. Instead of making demands when no one posting (myself included) knows the full details of the situation, please allow details to be uncovered and plans for moving forward to be made. I have said a few times now that work is being done behind the scenes. Allow that process to occur. Once everything is in place and moving forward, if there are still issues, then they should be raised at that point.
Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
Based on past actions in similar situations they have never released a list of potentially affected flip numbers. If they did then some shareholders might try to pursue the company legally for breach of fiduciary duty to properly protect shareholder interests. That’s not an avenue that the officers of a publicly traded company normally want to open up.>
They almost certainly won’t release a list of flip numbers if we don’t demand it and back up that demand with our dollars.
Ok, I'm not liking this line of thought. Instead of making demands when no one posting (myself included) knows the full details of the situation, please allow details to be uncovered and plans for moving forward to be made. I have said a few times now that work is being done behind the scenes. Allow that process to occur. Once everything is in place and moving forward, if there are still issues, then they should be raised at that point.
Thanks Todd. I've said more than my piece at this point, posting more in the last two days than I have in the last two years. I appreciate CU and PSA letting the issues be aired on their message board. Real life beckons, and I will re-engage when there are new developments.
Based on past actions in similar situations they have never released a list of potentially affected flip numbers. If they did then some shareholders might try to pursue the company legally for breach of fiduciary duty to properly protect shareholder interests. That’s not an avenue that the officers of a publicly traded company normally want to open up.>
They almost certainly won’t release a list of flip numbers if we don’t demand it and back up that demand with our dollars.
How would go about releasing a list of cert numbers if the cards got graded and not detected the first time? Graygator, do you really think PSA has a a secret list of cards they think may not have been legit but got slabbed anyway? I agree with so many of these posts, yes cards did get by the graders, but nowhere does PSA state they are 100% accurate. PSA is not the problem, it’s the guys who are so good at altering that these things are getting more difficult to detect. I have a friend that used to work writing anti-virus programs for Microsoft, obviously they employ some very highly skilled people in those environments, but he told me as soon as they found a solution for one issue, another came up, the hackers were relentless. Wherever there’s money, there’s bound to be people looking to take it in a dishonest manner.
Todd, there are plenty of solid posts on this thread, but no matter where the discussion has gone, there is one poster who’s not adding much but ridiculous demands. Please consider locking this thread. I agree with the Crisser, these message boards have really taken on a mob mentality
Based on past actions in similar situations they have never released a list of potentially affected flip numbers. If they did then some shareholders might try to pursue the company legally for breach of fiduciary duty to properly protect shareholder interests. That’s not an avenue that the officers of a publicly traded company normally want to open up.>
They almost certainly won’t release a list of flip numbers if we don’t demand it and back up that demand with our dollars.
Ok, I'm not liking this line of thought. Instead of making demands when no one posting (myself included) knows the full details of the situation, please allow details to be uncovered and plans for moving forward to be made. I have said a few times now that work is being done behind the scenes. Allow that process to occur. Once everything is in place and moving forward, if there are still issues, then they should be raised at that point.
I agree.
Give those in charge a chance. They have enough to deal with right now and don’t need additional distractions from one or more partly-aware, incensed message board mobs breathing down their necks.
I’m not saying everyone should go silent. There have been some really constructive ideas and valid concerns posted in this thread and I’m sure that PSA appreciates receiving that. I feel very confident that Todd is keeping an eye out for such items and will make sure that someone with authority sees them when they get a chance to breathe after dealing with the immediate priorities.
Things are very different in my eyes than they have been in the past, and in a good way. We are being given the opportunity to discuss a controversial subject that in the past probably would have gone “poof” and resulted in people getting banned. Let’s appreciate the change, respect it and take it as the good sign that it is.
I have a friend that used to work writing anti-virus programs for Microsoft, obviously they employ some very highly skilled people in those environments, but he told me as soon as they found a solution for one issue, another came up, the hackers were relentless. Wherever there’s money, there’s bound to be people looking to take it in a dishonest manner.
I work in IT so this is where my mind immediately went when the talk of catching 100% of the altered cards started. Hence my escalation comment in a previous post. All TPG have to be able to spot the trends and understand the technology that the card doctors are using and find new ways to detect those methods. In turn the card doctors will find out what methods the TPG is using and come up with new ways to get around them. It is for this exact reason a TPG should not disclose to the public all the details of their authentication procedure. Everyone wants transparency so the TPG is held accountable, but if that transparency threatens the integrity of the process by tipping off the card doctors then is it really worth it?
Maintain tact. Do that and we’re good. I am glad extremism is not being endorsed here on these forums. That’s what I see when I read through these threads. Locking the thread is as bad an idea as posting personal demands. There’s places on the Internet for it - obviously. It’s really not here.
This a forum for discussion of baseball cards and related topics. This hot topic is currently being discussed. For the most part, rationally and by the majority. Let’s not let a bad actor or two ruin everything around here (a f***ing GREAT double entendre by the way).
This is not a public square.
This is not a court room.
This is a place to share information. It should continue to be shared.
Also, please remember and note when you leave these forums and continue reading another forum. Make a mental note. They all look similar but the ‘mob mentality’ I see present on other boards hasn’t set in here nor do I expect it to.
By the way, my prediction is the loudest cries will come from card ‘investors’ and not card collectors.
And there is some incredible irony in the predicament of the investor who is upset to find out that it came with risk.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
Maintain tact. Do that and we’re good. I am glad extremism is not being endorsed here on these forums. That’s what I see when I read through these threads. Locking the thread is as bad an idea as posting personal demands. There’s places on the Internet for it - obviously. It’s really not here.
This a forum for discussion of baseball cards and related topics. This hot topic is currently being discussed. For the most part, rationally and by the majority. Let’s not let a bad actor or two ruin everything around here (a f***ing GREAT double entendre by the way).
This is not a public square.
This is not a court room.
This is a place to share information. It should continue to be shared.
Also, please remember and note when you leave these forums and continue reading another forum. Make a mental note. They all look similar but the ‘mob mentality’ I see present on other boards hasn’t set in here nor do I expect it to.
By the way, my prediction is the loudest cries will come from card ‘investors’ and not card collectors.
And there is some incredible irony in the predicament of the investor who is upset to find out that it came with risk.
If additional precautions are put into place, as some suggest, via taking scans of all cards, etc -- it would take us a year to get a bulk order back. Eliminate/prosecute the crooks/trimmers, and hopefully PSA learns a bit more about identifying cards that have been altered -- I think that is what I would like to see and I think those are realistic wishes.
I have a friend that used to work writing anti-virus programs for Microsoft, obviously they employ some very highly skilled people in those environments, but he told me as soon as they found a solution for one issue, another came up, the hackers were relentless. Wherever there’s money, there’s bound to be people looking to take it in a dishonest manner.
A thought just came to my mind after reading this.
One thing that companies (and the government) have done to try to keep ahead of the problem, is hire some of the "bad guys", and have them work for the "good guys". Basically, if Microsoft is to stay ahead of the hackers, they will hire some of the hackers, since they are the ones who know best, what's being nefariously done.
So, could/would CU/PSA convince one or more of the "card doctors" to switch sides, and begin working for CU/PSA, to help build new defenses?
Unless customers complain loudly and with their pocketbooks, a public company in an unregulated industry is extremely unlikely to do anything. I think we can realistically only expect PSA to make improvements to catch what these guys are doing if not catching it hurts the bottom line more than the expense of developing methods to detect the alterations. PSA May start to feel that pressure through public complaint from its customers but will only really feel it when the bottom line moves.
If we want a better PSA we have to demand it loudly and clearly.
Hiya gray
Don't know your first name.
I'm happy being on the sidelines on this; have no axe to grind; don't want to be labelled a PSA apologist...
But, have you ever talked to Joe Orlando?
When he was president, he was absolutely approachable and if you emailed him? He got back really fast.
He even called me up once back in 09.
This - IMO - is a company who listens and responds to our requests.
@drc said:
I think you all have to realize that PSA might not be terribly good at detecting altered cards. But many of you here are already deflecting, excusing and giving them outs, which is exactly what they are hoping for. My impression is some of the people don't even particularly care that there are altered cards in holders.
From the sounds of it, I suspect many here are about ready to begin bidding in PCWW auctions too.
Ok, I'm not liking this line of thought. Instead of making demands when no one posting (myself included) knows the full details of the situation, please allow details to be uncovered and plans for moving forward to be made. I have said a few times now that work is being done behind the scenes. Allow that process to occur. Once everything is in place and moving forward, if there are still issues, then they should be raised at that point.
Very fair comments and I think that with an issue of this size, scope, and severity the hobby would want it done right versus done quickly. Are there some bad actors out there who are dealers and trimmers who should shoulder the blame like our friends at PWCC and Edward Scissorhands? Absolutely and they deserve everything that happens to them from a legal sense as well as their businesses. Does PSA share some blame in this with cards getting by the goalie - yes.
This is not the first time PWCC has had issues with their integrity and reputation, and this one is going to stick - or as Dave (70’s) this is a tattoo on them. From PSA’s perspective I hope they come back in the near future with steps and actions they have taken to (a) remove the bad cards from the hobby, (b) learn from this and share best practices with their graders and be more aware of what to look for, (c) find out from Moser how he is doing this so it does not happen again with the next trimmer who will surely fill the void (maybe a slightly reduced sentence for cooperation would help). I also think scans front and back of cards over $500/$1000/whatever threshold is decided would also be helpful. At the end of the day it is in PSA’s best interests to continue to make sure the hobby can rely on them to authenticate cards both from a grade and verification standpoint.
As A collector for 40+ years I will continue to enjoy the hobby by buying the cards I like no matter if they entombed in plastic or not. The beauty of what I collect is it is not investment grade material and even better, I KNOW my cards because I have educated myself for years on how a card should feel, look and even smell (yes, old cards do have a smell). I don't need a TPG to tell me that a certain card is a specific grade because I already know what it is just by a quick examination. Do I have slabbed cards in my collection? Of course I do. I like the protection the slab gives me but I am not obsessed by grading where every single card needs to be graded.
I am going to continue to collect what I like and step up my vigilance and ensure that I am buying quality cards that, upon my own personal examination have not been tampered with....you know....like the good old days of collecting.
@Stan Pounder said:
I guess we will see this summer at the National if this scandal will have any effect on TPG. If the lines are long at PSA it’s business as usual, if lines are short and really not active then we know we have a problem in the TGP world. Here’s to a hell of a National , will it be a steel cage match or a causal stroll through the park. I got my popcorn ready, you?
The National will be a fun one to watch. I wonder if there is an over/under on the number of dealers who will be arrested on various charges outside of the current scandal since we seem to have been experiencing at least one arrest per National. Add this crazy mess into the mix the over might be the bet to take.
I will make a bold prediction and state that we will see the hobby's first appearance of hand held calipers making their rounds at the show to check for sizing on slabbed and raw cards.
I will be there Saturday and Sunday and cannot wait to see how this all plays out. Its going to be interesting.
Very fair comments and I think that with an issue of this size, scope, and severity the hobby would want it done right versus done quickly. Are there some bad actors out there who are dealers and trimmers who should shoulder the blame like our friends at PWCC and Edward Scissorhands? Absolutely and they deserve everything that happens to them from a legal sense as well as their businesses. Does PSA share some blame in this with cards getting by the goalie - yes.
And handling this “right” has multiple dimensions. It’s unrealistic to think that there is some quick fix.
From PSA’s perspective I hope they come back in the near future with steps and actions they have taken to (a) remove the bad cards from the hobby, (b) learn from this and share best practices with their graders and be more aware of what to look for, (c) find out from Moser how he is doing this so it does not happen again with the next trimmer who will surely fill the void (maybe a slightly reduced sentence for cooperation would help). I also think scans front and back of cards over $500/$1000/whatever threshold is decided would also be helpful. At the end of the day it is in PSA’s best interests to continue to make sure the hobby can rely on them to authenticate cards both from a grade and verification standpoint.
KC
Couldn’t agree with you more Keith. And I’d add that all that needs to happen in a way that is doable for PSA. They are part of a public company and have fiduciary responsibilities to the shareholders that could constrain how and when they can take actions. There is also the risk of incurring liability if they do something that crashes the market.
This is a complex situation and we need to give PSA and CU leadership the time they need to figure out how best to address it.
The fact that they are allowing this discussion to continue without the kind of censorship and banning that used to occur here is a very positive development in my opinion. It says to me that leadership is not trying to hide things, and adds to the justification that they continue to be worthy of our trust and confidence as they work through this.
PSA can have all the time it needs to get it right. I’m not one who thinks PSA’s action needs to be immediate. I’d rather it be thorough and comprehensive.
But the time to voice concerns as customers is immediate. Even knowing that those concerns are based on imperfect information. If concerns aren’t voiced while PSA is formulating its response it may be too late. Once a policy and response is announced and in place it will be very difficult to change.
@Stan Pounder said:
I guess we will see this summer at the National if this scandal will have any effect on TPG. If the lines are long at PSA it’s business as usual, if lines are short and really not active then we know we have a problem in the TGP world. Here’s to a hell of a National , will it be a steel cage match or a causal stroll through the park. I got my popcorn ready, you?
The National will be a fun one to watch. I wonder if there is an over/under on the number of dealers who will be arrested on various charges outside of the current scandal since we seem to have been experiencing at least one arrest per National. Add this crazy mess into the mix the over might be the bet to take.
I will make a bold prediction and state that we will see the hobby's first appearance of hand held calipers making their rounds at the show to check for sizing on slabbed and raw cards.
I will be there Saturday and Sunday and cannot wait to see how this all plays out. Its going to be interesting.
Andrew I totally agree with everything you said. I'm wondering how "We" the collectors will respond or how we will make a huge impact at the National this year. The mighty dollar rules.
This might sound stupid or even childish but I wonder if the fellow collectors will heckle PWCC or even try and start something with the likes of Gary Moser, Kevin Burge and his crew. We all know those clowns will be at the National walking the floor and selling cards.
The collecting world is pissed off about what's transpired over the last few months. I'm very curious to see if a few folks take matters into their own hands. You would think that the folks that organize & run the National would ban those that I mentioned from attending to ensure a drama free event. You're absolutely correct.. it's going to be interesting for sure.
"EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY IT SAYS IT RIGHT THERE ON THE WALL" - JACKIE MOON
Ok, I'm not liking this line of thought. Instead of making demands when no one posting (myself included) knows the full details of the situation, please allow details to be uncovered and plans for moving forward to be made. I have said a few times now that work is being done behind the scenes. Allow that process to occur. Once everything is in place and moving forward, if there are still issues, then they should be raised at that point.
Very fair comments and I think that with an issue of this size, scope, and severity the hobby would want it done right versus done quickly. Are there some bad actors out there who are dealers and trimmers who should shoulder the blame like our friends at PWCC and Edward Scissorhands? Absolutely and they deserve everything that happens to them from a legal sense as well as their businesses. Does PSA share some blame in this with cards getting by the goalie - yes.
This is not the first time PWCC has had issues with their integrity and reputation, and this one is going to stick - or as Dave (70’s) this is a tattoo on them. From PSA’s perspective I hope they come back in the near future with steps and actions they have taken to (a) remove the bad cards from the hobby, (b) learn from this and share best practices with their graders and be more aware of what to look for, (c) find out from Moser how he is doing this so it does not happen again with the next trimmer who will surely fill the void (maybe a slightly reduced sentence for cooperation would help). I also think scans front and back of cards over $500/$1000/whatever threshold is decided would also be helpful. At the end of the day it is in PSA’s best interests to continue to make sure the hobby can rely on them to authenticate cards both from a grade and verification standpoint.
Will the person/people who trimmed cards be prosecuted?
What's the likelihood they'll be convicted? Length of sentence?
Will PWCC and/or PSA be able to get back the money that was paid out to the seller(s) of trimmed cards?
Very fair comments and I think that with an issue of this size, scope, and severity the hobby would want it done right versus done quickly. Are there some bad actors out there who are dealers and trimmers who should shoulder the blame like our friends at PWCC and Edward Scissorhands? Absolutely and they deserve everything that happens to them from a legal sense as well as their businesses. Does PSA share some blame in this with cards getting by the goalie - yes.
And handling this “right” has multiple dimensions. It’s unrealistic to think that there is some quick fix.
From PSA’s perspective I hope they come back in the near future with steps and actions they have taken to (a) remove the bad cards from the hobby, (b) learn from this and share best practices with their graders and be more aware of what to look for, (c) find out from Moser how he is doing this so it does not happen again with the next trimmer who will surely fill the void (maybe a slightly reduced sentence for cooperation would help). I also think scans front and back of cards over $500/$1000/whatever threshold is decided would also be helpful. At the end of the day it is in PSA’s best interests to continue to make sure the hobby can rely on them to authenticate cards both from a grade and verification standpoint.
KC
Couldn’t agree with you more Keith. And I’d add that all that needs to happen in a way that is doable for PSA. They are part of a public company and have fiduciary responsibilities to the shareholders that could constrain how and when they can take actions. There is also the risk of incurring liability if they do something that crashes the market.
This is a complex situation and we need to give PSA and CU leadership the time they need to figure out how best to address it.
The fact that they are allowing this discussion to continue without the kind of censorship and banning that used to occur here is a very positive development in my opinion. It says to me that leadership is not trying to hide things, and adds to the justification that they continue to be worthy of our trust and confidence as they work through this.
100% agree ----- very impressed that the open discussion is allowed to continue.
@Stan Pounder said:
I guess we will see this summer at the National if this scandal will have any effect on TPG. If the lines are long at PSA it’s business as usual, if lines are short and really not active then we know we have a problem in the TGP world. Here’s to a hell of a National , will it be a steel cage match or a causal stroll through the park. I got my popcorn ready, you?
The National will be a fun one to watch. I wonder if there is an over/under on the number of dealers who will be arrested on various charges outside of the current scandal since we seem to have been experiencing at least one arrest per National. Add this crazy mess into the mix the over might be the bet to take.
I will make a bold prediction and state that we will see the hobby's first appearance of hand held calipers making their rounds at the show to check for sizing on slabbed and raw cards.
I will be there Saturday and Sunday and cannot wait to see how this all plays out. Its going to be interesting.
Andrew I totally agree with everything you said. I'm wondering how "We" the collectors will respond or how we will make a huge impact at the National this year. The mighty dollar rules.
This might sound stupid or even childish but I wonder if the fellow collectors will heckle PWCC or even try and start something with the likes of Gary Moser, Kevin Burge and his crew. We all know those clowns will be at the National walking the floor and selling cards.
The collecting world is pissed off about what's transpired over the last few months. I'm very curious to see if a few folks take matters into their own hands. You would think that the folks that organize & run the National would ban those that I mentioned from attending to ensure a drama free event. You're absolutely correct.. it's going to be interesting for sure.
I HAVE DELETED THIS POST - Todd Tobias
Open discussion is one thing. Heckling is another. I welcome the former and won't accept the latter. Please don't do that again.
@Stan Pounder said:
I guess we will see this summer at the National if this scandal will have any effect on TPG. If the lines are long at PSA it’s business as usual, if lines are short and really not active then we know we have a problem in the TGP world. Here’s to a hell of a National , will it be a steel cage match or a causal stroll through the park. I got my popcorn ready, you?
The National will be a fun one to watch. I wonder if there is an over/under on the number of dealers who will be arrested on various charges outside of the current scandal since we seem to have been experiencing at least one arrest per National. Add this crazy mess into the mix the over might be the bet to take.
I will make a bold prediction and state that we will see the hobby's first appearance of hand held calipers making their rounds at the show to check for sizing on slabbed and raw cards.
I will be there Saturday and Sunday and cannot wait to see how this all plays out. Its going to be interesting.
Andrew I totally agree with everything you said. I'm wondering how "We" the collectors will respond or how we will make a huge impact at the National this year. The mighty dollar rules.
This might sound stupid or even childish but I wonder if the fellow collectors will heckle PWCC or even try and start something with the likes of Gary Moser, Kevin Burge and his crew. We all know those clowns will be at the National walking the floor and selling cards.
The collecting world is pissed off about what's transpired over the last few months. I'm very curious to see if a few folks take matters into their own hands. You would think that the folks that organize & run the National would ban those that I mentioned from attending to ensure a drama free event. You're absolutely correct.. it's going to be interesting for sure.
I was thinking of printing up several pieces of paper that are the size of a card and dropping them off at certain corporate booth at the National and tell them these represent the cards I WAS going to grade and until this issue is addressed I Will not be grading anything. We should all do this to show solidarity and let ALL involved know we want some form of reform to restore our confidence in their product.
Rather than play it “cute” with a stunt at National it would probably be far more effective to politely post something here or write a letter and send it to PSA stating that you are concerned and that this has undermined your confidence to the point that you are holding off sending in more grading submissions until you see actions from PSA that restore your confidence. You could probably also call PSA and ask for Steve Sloan or Joe Orlando at CU to (again politely) express your concerns.
Its my experience that demands, threats and organized efforts to punish a company in order to get results from corporations tend to be far less effective than honest dialogue about concerns and requests for improvement when the company in question is already sharing your viewpoint.
@Stan Pounder said:
I guess we will see this summer at the National if this scandal will have any effect on TPG. If the lines are long at PSA it’s business as usual, if lines are short and really not active then we know we have a problem in the TGP world. Here’s to a hell of a National , will it be a steel cage match or a causal stroll through the park. I got my popcorn ready, you?
The National will be a fun one to watch. I wonder if there is an over/under on the number of dealers who will be arrested on various charges outside of the current scandal since we seem to have been experiencing at least one arrest per National. Add this crazy mess into the mix the over might be the bet to take.
I will make a bold prediction and state that we will see the hobby's first appearance of hand held calipers making their rounds at the show to check for sizing on slabbed and raw cards.
I will be there Saturday and Sunday and cannot wait to see how this all plays out. Its going to be interesting.
Andrew I totally agree with everything you said. I'm wondering how "We" the collectors will respond or how we will make a huge impact at the National this year. The mighty dollar rules.
This might sound stupid or even childish but I wonder if the fellow collectors will heckle PWCC or even try and start something with the likes of Gary Moser, Kevin Burge and his crew. We all know those clowns will be at the National walking the floor and selling cards.
The collecting world is pissed off about what's transpired over the last few months. I'm very curious to see if a few folks take matters into their own hands. You would think that the folks that organize & run the National would ban those that I mentioned from attending to ensure a drama free event. You're absolutely correct.. it's going to be interesting for sure.
I was thinking of printing up several pieces of paper that are the size of a card and dropping them off at certain corporate booth at the National and tell them these represent the cards I WAS going to grade and until this issue is addressed I Will not be grading anything. We should all do this to show solidarity and let ALL involved know we want some form of reform to restore our confidence in their product.
Rather than play it “cute” with a stunt at National it would probably be far more effective to politely post something here or write a letter and send it to PSA stating that you are concerned and that this has undermined your confidence to the point that you are holding off sending in more grading submissions until you see actions from PSA that restore your confidence. You could probably also call PSA and ask for Steve Sloan or Joe Orlando at CU to (again politely) express your concerns.
Its my experience that demands, threats and organized efforts to punish a company in order to get results from corporations tend to be far less effective than honest dialogue about concerns and requests for improvement when the company in question is already sharing your viewpoint.
@Stan Pounder said:
I guess we will see this summer at the National if this scandal will have any effect on TPG. If the lines are long at PSA it’s business as usual, if lines are short and really not active then we know we have a problem in the TGP world. Here’s to a hell of a National , will it be a steel cage match or a causal stroll through the park. I got my popcorn ready, you?
The National will be a fun one to watch. I wonder if there is an over/under on the number of dealers who will be arrested on various charges outside of the current scandal since we seem to have been experiencing at least one arrest per National. Add this crazy mess into the mix the over might be the bet to take.
I will make a bold prediction and state that we will see the hobby's first appearance of hand held calipers making their rounds at the show to check for sizing on slabbed and raw cards.
I will be there Saturday and Sunday and cannot wait to see how this all plays out. Its going to be interesting.
Andrew I totally agree with everything you said. I'm wondering how "We" the collectors will respond or how we will make a huge impact at the National this year. The mighty dollar rules.
This might sound stupid or even childish but I wonder if the fellow collectors will heckle PWCC or even try and start something with the likes of Gary Moser, Kevin Burge and his crew. We all know those clowns will be at the National walking the floor and selling cards.
The collecting world is pissed off about what's transpired over the last few months. I'm very curious to see if a few folks take matters into their own hands. You would think that the folks that organize & run the National would ban those that I mentioned from attending to ensure a drama free event. You're absolutely correct.. it's going to be interesting for sure.
I was thinking of printing up several pieces of paper that are the size of a card and dropping them off at certain corporate booth at the National and tell them these represent the cards I WAS going to grade and until this issue is addressed I Will not be grading anything. We should all do this to show solidarity and let ALL involved know we want some form of reform to restore our confidence in their product.
Rather than play it “cute” with a stunt at National it would probably be far more effective to politely post something here or write a letter and send it to PSA stating that you are concerned and that this has undermined your confidence to the point that you are holding off sending in more grading submissions until you see actions from PSA that restore your confidence. You could probably also call PSA and ask for Steve Sloan or Joe Orlando at CU to (again politely) express your concerns.
Its my experience that demands, threats and organized efforts to punish a company in order to get results from corporations tend to be far less effective than honest dialogue about concerns and requests for improvement when the company in question is already sharing your viewpoint.
This
Lets be clear on one thing...it was never my intent to heckle anyone or be anything else that what I have been for the 14 plus years I have been a member on this forum and that is polite, helpful and concerned for this hobby. I would hope my track record here, going back all those many years would gain me some measure of leeway in offering my opinions. I made it through the bannings and downturn of these boards nine years ago without a ban and continue to be a member in good standing so I do hope I am provided some measure of understanding.
I was not referring to a cute stunt and I am sorry that it was misinterpreted that way. The best way to let a company know that their policies and practices are accepted or rejected by their customers is to vote with one's own dollars and this was all I was trying to do by letting not only PSA but BGS and even SGC know how I was feeling when I referred to this National plan. Lets face it, this hobby likes to sweep things under a rug and move on and we all know that. Honest dialogue has been attempted many times in many different situations but I just dont think things will change significantly until the people who are paying the freight demand change. That was my motivation...nothing more...nothing less. I collect mid-level cards that are mostly unslabbed so this recent turn of events will effect me far less than many of the collectors on these boards but make no mistake, it will affect all of us. This was not a heckle....but an ask for a company(s) I have always respected to take the lead and help rid this hobby of some of the riff raff that is ruining it for all of us.
If that makes me a rabblerouser or causes me to get banned, well I am sorry for that but I make zero apologies for asking.....even demanding a change in a hobby I have been a part of for over fourty years now.
mccardguy1 and I have had a nice exchange via PMs. I'm looking forward to chatting with him more about his collection.. Thank you to 70ToppsFanatic and HighGradeLegends for their support. It is appreciated. I now consider this particular issue resolved.
Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
@AFLfan said:
mccardguy1 and I have had a nice exchange via PMs. I'm looking forward to chatting with him more about his collection.. Thank you to 70ToppsFanatic and HighGradeLegends for their support. It is appreciated. I now consider this particular issue resolved.
I think we all want the same for this hobby we love!!
@AFLfan said:
mccardguy1 and I have had a nice exchange via PMs. I'm looking forward to chatting with him more about his collection.. Thank you to 70ToppsFanatic and HighGradeLegends for their support. It is appreciated. I now consider this particular issue resolved.
I think we all want the same for this hobby we love!!
Comments
I don’t think we are that far apart. All I am saying is that there is a difference between 1) voicing proper concern, making constructive suggestions and advising the company that until we see what they come up up with you will probably be limiting additional business and 2) calling for the company to be “punished”, suggesting the company is complicit/uncaring about the issue, stirring up a mob mentality against the company that will only feed on itself, geometrically increase damage and divert the company’s attention from working on some of the issues that need to be addressed.
The vast majority of what has been seen on the message boards so far consists of things in the latter vein, rather than the former. The more that continues the more damage that gets done.
My comments are general and not directed at specific individuals. I’m with 1951wheaties....until evidence to the contrary arises against PSA or until PSA takes woefully inadequate actions and callously blows off feedback complaining about it i will continue to give PSA the benefit of the doubt.
Dave
I am as upset by this as the next guy, but I think it is a little silly to think a TPG will get it right 100% of the time. I think the best way to restore confidence is to release a "recall" list. Similar to a car manufacturer. peel the band aid off fast.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
A "recall list" needs to be created, but who's going to do it? PSA may have "missed" a few cards, but they don't know which ones they are.
Who is going to create the list?
Some of these "investigators" have no knowledge of the printing process and are working with some POOR scans.
First of all, I suggest ebay require a high resolution front and back scan of any cards worth over $100.00 (put your own number in here if you don't agree with $100).
While they are at it STOP with the bid retractions!
Here's two reasonable suggestions to help the collector.
Maybe it’s silly to say that PSA will get it right on the first try 100% of the time. It’s not silly to say that PSA should be held accountable for 100% of its misses, because it says it can catch alterations, and doing so is part of its core mission and guarantee. I’m trying but apparently failing to say the latter.
That whole discussion is really a distraction though. Does anyone really think that what has been revealed so far doesn’t require a major response from PSA, both to address what happened and how they intend to prevent it in the future?
On the recall list, that would be comprised of the entire submissions of known card doctors. Pretty sure that’s information PSA possesses.
I don't know what kind of job you have, but not too many people or companies can achieve 100% quality. PSA already says it will "fix" the problem of a card that is slabbed with a grade that has been altered. The accountability is there, all you have to do is identify the problem card after they couldn't. Good luck!
I don't even know how PSA exactly looks at cards. I have heard they don't spend a lot of time looking at them. Do they spend more time on "high end" cards than the not so valuable ones? I will agree that it would be nice to understand the grading process in greater detail.
PSA's graders are not supposed to "know" who submits the cards, in reality there has to be an information "trail", but I doubt that they have a list of known card doctors. If they do, sharing it with the public could get them sued.
PSA and the other TPG's are NOT in business to "clean up" the hobby. They are in business to make a profit and they are certainly not going to radically change things and end up losing money.
Try to be realistic. There are ways that cards can be "conserved" that are undetectable. How is anyone supposed to be able to detect the undetectable?
YES any company can and should constantly be trying to improve their service/product.
Let's be a little patient and see what happens.
Ok, then it is relevant.
The 100% thing is a distraction and I’m sorry I brought it up. It obscures the main point, which is that the known alterations to this point are of sufficient number and importance to be concerning on their own, regardless of what you think an acceptable error rate is. The apparent circumstances surrounding their submission are such that it’s reasonable to think, at the very least, that more precautions could have and should have been taken by PSA. Given those things, PSA’s representation that “PSA has created a market in which collectors can participate with complete confidence and trust” no longer rings true to me and a lot of other collectors. It’s up to PSA to restore that confidence and trust. We’ll see what they do.
I think it’s incorrect to try to cast doubt on the work these investigators are doing. They’re finding cards bought by someone that has been known to alter cards for at least the past 15 years. These cards all magically show back up in PWCC auctions in different holders a few months later. All with aligning print marks on the front and pulp marks on the back. for any of the ones that they may get wrong there are so many more that they don’t post because it’s inconclusive or they haven’t run across yet.
This is happening and there isn’t any doubt about it.
I concur. At minimum, ebay should restrict bid retractions to maybe 1 every 90 days. This stops a large portion of the nonsense virtually overnight. But ebay wont do this because they know what bid retractions are used for and it nets them more revenue. Ebay is a HUGE part of the problem.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
yes
The people who think that a mob is going after PSA, have probably never bought a thousand dollar card in a PSA holder, only to find out it has been altered.
I will open with a few caveats. First, I have been far more of a frequent reader than poster in these forums. Second, I am not personally going to be substantially financially impacted as my personal PSA involvement is for my collection and is far from high dollar and I would be truly shocked to learn anyone spent the time to attempt alterations to those items. Last, this will be somewhat lengthy and the folks who will feel the pain from following any of this will be the vast majority of us who are not the crooks who are the root cause of this issue.
Seeing this “scandal” now in non-collecting forums and into the investment arena with financial analysts discussing the company itself with potential liabilities (leading to some level of drop in the stock price in recent days) is certainly not the type of press any company wants.
My personal feeling is that PSA remains the unquestioned industry leader and the fact that they are not perfect does nothing to change that. What I do expect (and I think is all that we can reasonably expect) is that they continue their relentless pursuit of perfection and continue to look for ways to remain ahead of those con artists trying to rip off folks and giving our hobby a bad name.
I do think there may be some steps that PSA can announce they are taking in an effort to prevent recurrence of these issues. All of these suggestions vary in degrees of draconian nature (and may be wildly unpopular with some). All of these will negatively impact honest submitters - but that is the nature of so many things in society - the innocent customer suffers due to the nefarious actions of a minority. A theme from the below will in many ways be the end of the “crack and resubmit” practice (under the assumption that anyone who cracks and resubmits only does so because they have altered the item in some way), and if any of the below were implemented it would likely lead to higher costs and longer grading periods due to the greater levels of scrutiny.
On to the proposals – realizing that we as customers either have the option to allow PSA to implement changes to curb alterations or do nothing and complain they are not perfect:
a. A similar analytics review could be done based on submission “type.” As I mentioned at the beginning, I am not a high-dollar submitter. If I suddenly submitted a Mantle, Ryan, Jordan, Brady, etc rookies – maybe that triggers a review.
b. Same type of concept on a new account. Err on the side that a new account coming on board could possibly be someone previously banned just coming in under a new email. Compare names, addresses, and other info on that new account – particularly if that new account immediately submits high-dollar items. Unacceptable results from that review also results in rejection.
None of what I address above will stop trimming (or other alteration) of items that have never been submitted for grading (except possibly those same low-pop, numbered cards that seem to be the ones used as examples of the issue in many cases). BUT, if those alterations are so good that there is no manner to detect them – then who is to possibly say that an item did not roll off the press in the same condition that it was submitted for grading.
Chris
I see this issue as an example of one of the challenges for PSA where there are conflicting interests that need to be carefully balanced to make sure their legal obligations are met.
The fact is that a slabbed card is “legal tender” until it is somehow exposed as being tainted. To what extent is PSA obligated to assist individuals in detecting tainted cards relative to their fiduciary obligations to the shareholders?
Based on past actions in similar situations they have never released a list of potentially affected flip numbers. If they did then some shareholders might try to pursue the company legally for breach of fiduciary duty to properly protect shareholder interests. That’s not an avenue that the officers of a publicly traded company normally want to open up. As much as collectors would like and benefit from such a list I don’t see it as realistic that PSA can provide one. I think we are going to have to rely on whatever has been discovered so far over on BO, and maybe if PWCC is sincere in trying to make things right they could provide information from their records that would allow such a list to be improved, thereby taking PSA itself out of the position of doing something that may be perceived as counter to their own parent’s shareholders interests.
The US government prints money and coins money. They design in countermeasures to prevent counterfeiting. If a counterfeiter starts putting out bogus bucks they privately investigate. There are also some basic tools that go along with the countermeasures that people can use to help identified counterfeits.
I think PSA is in a somewhat analogous situation. I can understand that it may be necessary to do the investigatuons privately. But perhaps they could come up with some additional collector “tools”, such as a publicly available digital “finger print”, that would help people identify potentially tainted items or avoid buying items that they felt were suspect after reviewing them with such tools? I think it far more likely that we will see efforts in this direction.
Dave
I definately think a recall list would be a step in the right direction.
Censorship is not part of a workable solution. It just puts more fuel on the fire.
Overcoming one’s own anxieties and insecurities regarding this situation in the immediate timeframe and having a little patience to give the one stakeholder who can really make a difference sufficient time to try and do so is what is needed.
“Greater is the man who conquers his own demons than a man who taketh a city”
Dave
I am looking for PSA to make immediate changes. I do not think they were complicit or did anything wrong. But they did miss a lot of altered cards.
1) Beginning immediately scan the front and back of all graded cards and include on the cert lookup and give collectors the ability to lookup all cards by card and get photos. This will help aid in finding altered cards by the online community and begin to build a database of cards to eventually match against.
2) Invest in technology that tries to match submitted cards to previously graded examples. Provide the likely matches to the graders so they can see if the computer made a correct match and then if alterations occur. While this will take time to develop - provide collectors and stockholders with the budget you plan to spend on R&D towards this goal.
3) For cards above a certain value - hire people to try to match to the database manually until technology can help.
I do not believe PSA has done anything wrong but it has been proven that photo matching of cards is a useful tool to find alterations. I would like to hear PSA’s plan to eventually use this technology to enhance their accuracy.
In the absence of this - as long as PSA honors their guarantee - they will have done nothing wrong. But as the industry leader I hope they are looking to a future that allows them to stop more fraud in the hobby.
They almost certainly won’t release a list of flip numbers if we don’t demand it and back up that demand with our dollars.
Ok, I'm not liking this line of thought. Instead of making demands when no one posting (myself included) knows the full details of the situation, please allow details to be uncovered and plans for moving forward to be made. I have said a few times now that work is being done behind the scenes. Allow that process to occur. Once everything is in place and moving forward, if there are still issues, then they should be raised at that point.
Thanks Todd. I've said more than my piece at this point, posting more in the last two days than I have in the last two years. I appreciate CU and PSA letting the issues be aired on their message board. Real life beckons, and I will re-engage when there are new developments.
How would go about releasing a list of cert numbers if the cards got graded and not detected the first time? Graygator, do you really think PSA has a a secret list of cards they think may not have been legit but got slabbed anyway? I agree with so many of these posts, yes cards did get by the graders, but nowhere does PSA state they are 100% accurate. PSA is not the problem, it’s the guys who are so good at altering that these things are getting more difficult to detect. I have a friend that used to work writing anti-virus programs for Microsoft, obviously they employ some very highly skilled people in those environments, but he told me as soon as they found a solution for one issue, another came up, the hackers were relentless. Wherever there’s money, there’s bound to be people looking to take it in a dishonest manner.
Todd, there are plenty of solid posts on this thread, but no matter where the discussion has gone, there is one poster who’s not adding much but ridiculous demands. Please consider locking this thread. I agree with the Crisser, these message boards have really taken on a mob mentality
I agree.
Give those in charge a chance. They have enough to deal with right now and don’t need additional distractions from one or more partly-aware, incensed message board mobs breathing down their necks.
I’m not saying everyone should go silent. There have been some really constructive ideas and valid concerns posted in this thread and I’m sure that PSA appreciates receiving that. I feel very confident that Todd is keeping an eye out for such items and will make sure that someone with authority sees them when they get a chance to breathe after dealing with the immediate priorities.
Things are very different in my eyes than they have been in the past, and in a good way. We are being given the opportunity to discuss a controversial subject that in the past probably would have gone “poof” and resulted in people getting banned. Let’s appreciate the change, respect it and take it as the good sign that it is.
Dave
I have a friend that used to work writing anti-virus programs for Microsoft, obviously they employ some very highly skilled people in those environments, but he told me as soon as they found a solution for one issue, another came up, the hackers were relentless. Wherever there’s money, there’s bound to be people looking to take it in a dishonest manner.
I work in IT so this is where my mind immediately went when the talk of catching 100% of the altered cards started. Hence my escalation comment in a previous post. All TPG have to be able to spot the trends and understand the technology that the card doctors are using and find new ways to detect those methods. In turn the card doctors will find out what methods the TPG is using and come up with new ways to get around them. It is for this exact reason a TPG should not disclose to the public all the details of their authentication procedure. Everyone wants transparency so the TPG is held accountable, but if that transparency threatens the integrity of the process by tipping off the card doctors then is it really worth it?
Kris
My 1971 Topps adventure - Davis Men in Black
Tact.
Maintain tact. Do that and we’re good. I am glad extremism is not being endorsed here on these forums. That’s what I see when I read through these threads. Locking the thread is as bad an idea as posting personal demands. There’s places on the Internet for it - obviously. It’s really not here.
This a forum for discussion of baseball cards and related topics. This hot topic is currently being discussed. For the most part, rationally and by the majority. Let’s not let a bad actor or two ruin everything around here (a f***ing GREAT double entendre by the way).
This is not a public square.
This is not a court room.
This is a place to share information. It should continue to be shared.
Also, please remember and note when you leave these forums and continue reading another forum. Make a mental note. They all look similar but the ‘mob mentality’ I see present on other boards hasn’t set in here nor do I expect it to.
By the way, my prediction is the loudest cries will come from card ‘investors’ and not card collectors.
And there is some incredible irony in the predicament of the investor who is upset to find out that it came with risk.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I just want to drink some beer and open some cards. Since I'm in CA, maybe hit the dispensary too
@Coarsegold based on your name you're about 30 miles north of me
Kris
My 1971 Topps adventure - Davis Men in Black
+1
If additional precautions are put into place, as some suggest, via taking scans of all cards, etc -- it would take us a year to get a bulk order back. Eliminate/prosecute the crooks/trimmers, and hopefully PSA learns a bit more about identifying cards that have been altered -- I think that is what I would like to see and I think those are realistic wishes.
I wish my legit, slightly undersized vending cards would get holdered.
A thought just came to my mind after reading this.
One thing that companies (and the government) have done to try to keep ahead of the problem, is hire some of the "bad guys", and have them work for the "good guys". Basically, if Microsoft is to stay ahead of the hackers, they will hire some of the hackers, since they are the ones who know best, what's being nefariously done.
So, could/would CU/PSA convince one or more of the "card doctors" to switch sides, and begin working for CU/PSA, to help build new defenses?
Steve
drc works for Beckett?
At this point, unless someone has 10,000 graded cards?
A 10X loupe and knowledge of trimming - start going over > @graygator said:
Hiya gray
Don't know your first name.
I'm happy being on the sidelines on this; have no axe to grind; don't want to be labelled a PSA apologist...
But, have you ever talked to Joe Orlando?
When he was president, he was absolutely approachable and if you emailed him? He got back really fast.
He even called me up once back in 09.
This - IMO - is a company who listens and responds to our requests.
Patently unfair post IMO.
I don't know, but I deleted that post. Those kinds of ridiculous statements are unwarranted and will lead to discipline if they continue.
Very fair comments and I think that with an issue of this size, scope, and severity the hobby would want it done right versus done quickly. Are there some bad actors out there who are dealers and trimmers who should shoulder the blame like our friends at PWCC and Edward Scissorhands? Absolutely and they deserve everything that happens to them from a legal sense as well as their businesses. Does PSA share some blame in this with cards getting by the goalie - yes.
This is not the first time PWCC has had issues with their integrity and reputation, and this one is going to stick - or as Dave (70’s) this is a tattoo on them. From PSA’s perspective I hope they come back in the near future with steps and actions they have taken to (a) remove the bad cards from the hobby, (b) learn from this and share best practices with their graders and be more aware of what to look for, (c) find out from Moser how he is doing this so it does not happen again with the next trimmer who will surely fill the void (maybe a slightly reduced sentence for cooperation would help). I also think scans front and back of cards over $500/$1000/whatever threshold is decided would also be helpful. At the end of the day it is in PSA’s best interests to continue to make sure the hobby can rely on them to authenticate cards both from a grade and verification standpoint.
KC
Hiya Keith!
For me, the issue is simple.
As A collector for 40+ years I will continue to enjoy the hobby by buying the cards I like no matter if they entombed in plastic or not. The beauty of what I collect is it is not investment grade material and even better, I KNOW my cards because I have educated myself for years on how a card should feel, look and even smell (yes, old cards do have a smell). I don't need a TPG to tell me that a certain card is a specific grade because I already know what it is just by a quick examination. Do I have slabbed cards in my collection? Of course I do. I like the protection the slab gives me but I am not obsessed by grading where every single card needs to be graded.
I am going to continue to collect what I like and step up my vigilance and ensure that I am buying quality cards that, upon my own personal examination have not been tampered with....you know....like the good old days of collecting.
Collect the card not the slab!!
The National will be a fun one to watch. I wonder if there is an over/under on the number of dealers who will be arrested on various charges outside of the current scandal since we seem to have been experiencing at least one arrest per National. Add this crazy mess into the mix the over might be the bet to take.
I will make a bold prediction and state that we will see the hobby's first appearance of hand held calipers making their rounds at the show to check for sizing on slabbed and raw cards.
I will be there Saturday and Sunday and cannot wait to see how this all plays out. Its going to be interesting.
>
And handling this “right” has multiple dimensions. It’s unrealistic to think that there is some quick fix.
Couldn’t agree with you more Keith. And I’d add that all that needs to happen in a way that is doable for PSA. They are part of a public company and have fiduciary responsibilities to the shareholders that could constrain how and when they can take actions. There is also the risk of incurring liability if they do something that crashes the market.
This is a complex situation and we need to give PSA and CU leadership the time they need to figure out how best to address it.
The fact that they are allowing this discussion to continue without the kind of censorship and banning that used to occur here is a very positive development in my opinion. It says to me that leadership is not trying to hide things, and adds to the justification that they continue to be worthy of our trust and confidence as they work through this.
Dave
PSA can have all the time it needs to get it right. I’m not one who thinks PSA’s action needs to be immediate. I’d rather it be thorough and comprehensive.
But the time to voice concerns as customers is immediate. Even knowing that those concerns are based on imperfect information. If concerns aren’t voiced while PSA is formulating its response it may be too late. Once a policy and response is announced and in place it will be very difficult to change.
Andrew I totally agree with everything you said. I'm wondering how "We" the collectors will respond or how we will make a huge impact at the National this year. The mighty dollar rules.
This might sound stupid or even childish but I wonder if the fellow collectors will heckle PWCC or even try and start something with the likes of Gary Moser, Kevin Burge and his crew. We all know those clowns will be at the National walking the floor and selling cards.
The collecting world is pissed off about what's transpired over the last few months. I'm very curious to see if a few folks take matters into their own hands. You would think that the folks that organize & run the National would ban those that I mentioned from attending to ensure a drama free event. You're absolutely correct.. it's going to be interesting for sure.
Will the person/people who trimmed cards be prosecuted?
What's the likelihood they'll be convicted? Length of sentence?
Will PWCC and/or PSA be able to get back the money that was paid out to the seller(s) of trimmed cards?
100% agree ----- very impressed that the open discussion is allowed to continue.
I HAVE DELETED THIS POST - Todd Tobias
Open discussion is one thing. Heckling is another. I welcome the former and won't accept the latter. Please don't do that again.
Rather than play it “cute” with a stunt at National it would probably be far more effective to politely post something here or write a letter and send it to PSA stating that you are concerned and that this has undermined your confidence to the point that you are holding off sending in more grading submissions until you see actions from PSA that restore your confidence. You could probably also call PSA and ask for Steve Sloan or Joe Orlando at CU to (again politely) express your concerns.
Its my experience that demands, threats and organized efforts to punish a company in order to get results from corporations tend to be far less effective than honest dialogue about concerns and requests for improvement when the company in question is already sharing your viewpoint.
Dave
This
Lets be clear on one thing...it was never my intent to heckle anyone or be anything else that what I have been for the 14 plus years I have been a member on this forum and that is polite, helpful and concerned for this hobby. I would hope my track record here, going back all those many years would gain me some measure of leeway in offering my opinions. I made it through the bannings and downturn of these boards nine years ago without a ban and continue to be a member in good standing so I do hope I am provided some measure of understanding.
I was not referring to a cute stunt and I am sorry that it was misinterpreted that way. The best way to let a company know that their policies and practices are accepted or rejected by their customers is to vote with one's own dollars and this was all I was trying to do by letting not only PSA but BGS and even SGC know how I was feeling when I referred to this National plan. Lets face it, this hobby likes to sweep things under a rug and move on and we all know that. Honest dialogue has been attempted many times in many different situations but I just dont think things will change significantly until the people who are paying the freight demand change. That was my motivation...nothing more...nothing less. I collect mid-level cards that are mostly unslabbed so this recent turn of events will effect me far less than many of the collectors on these boards but make no mistake, it will affect all of us. This was not a heckle....but an ask for a company(s) I have always respected to take the lead and help rid this hobby of some of the riff raff that is ruining it for all of us.
If that makes me a rabblerouser or causes me to get banned, well I am sorry for that but I make zero apologies for asking.....even demanding a change in a hobby I have been a part of for over fourty years now.
mccardguy1 and I have had a nice exchange via PMs. I'm looking forward to chatting with him more about his collection.. Thank you to 70ToppsFanatic and HighGradeLegends for their support. It is appreciated. I now consider this particular issue resolved.
I think we all want the same for this hobby we love!!
I completely agree.
Dave