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Let's finally clear up the CAC myths.

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  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinstartled said:

    @Insider2 said:
    Without the TPGS's very many "dealers" would have been weeded out FAST. Apparently, there is a need for CAC.

    That gave me the idea to sticker coins that were actually Uncirculated (no matter MS-60 or higher) by the old standard we used at another TPGS - NO TRACE OF WEAR. I had self destruct stickers made with a tiny microscope and had the financial backing BUT I was hired by a TPGS before the company got off the ground. I suggested that my new employer have a gold label for these coins but it was considered a stupid proposition with good reason. If a company had a white label for the MS coins they graded what would a gold label reserved for the TRUE MS coins do to the value of the other typical MS coins with rub. Seems like a similar thing is occurring with the CAC stickers now! :wink:

    What is happening now is that coin buyers are suspicious of PCGS coins over say $500 (maybe less) that do not carry a CAC sticker. Even if the coin is all there, it is largely assumed that JA has taken a pass on the coin and future value would be limited.

    I dunno, is that healthy for the numismatic community. The highest regarded grader/slabber has to be second guessed by a certainly competent but unique grader. And that is after three or four of the best at PCGS have rendered an opinion.

    You are correct. Definitely not healthy and folks are running scared. Perhaps CAC had some unintended consequences. I notice they are running new ads saying CAC does not VALUE coins to combat the things you've posted.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinstartled said:

    @marcmoish said:

    @Coinstartled said:

    @Insider2 said:
    @Coinstartled said: " ...and how about JA creates his own forum or at least a managed Q&A platform instead of transmitting through mediums."

    For what? The medium is the telephone. It has been around a long time. Give it a try. :p

    Laura, TDN and now Wabbit have been the CU forum mouthpieces for CAC. Should I call JA each Sunday night as I consider bidding at Great Collections and inquire which coins have failed and which were never evaluated?

    The winners are proudly displayed. The losers buried in a non public database.

    Going back to this comment that prob got lost in the mayhem, I hear and know many put credence into this green bean and prefer coins CAC'd, I believe those that are truly fighting it might not have green slabs or coins that would pass the muster, hence all the nonsense and bad vibes at CAC. Originally years ago, I perceived this service as extra and excessive, however being the US market has evolved, and has born us too many doctors, fraudsters and coin shysters I have become very grateful for CAC. While not fool-proof I totally get why these are preferred, and attain stronger prices.

    That said, I'm on hold 1 hour now on my rotary phone awaiting JA to get back to me re a few pcs at GC tonite. Last he mumbled to me was he's gotta get that wabbit off the phone first.

    Marcmoish, many have been in the hobby/business longer than my 15 years, but this is my observation since 2003. In that time there has been a value adder, free (or close to free) money, if you will. Crackout resubmissions and TPG crosses made many submitters small fortunes with limited risk. As energy can neither be created or destroyed, neither can numismatic windfalls. For every Washington bumped from MS 66 to 67, a bit of air came out of populations. I sold a 1941-D in PCGS 67 several months ago for about $350. Same coin and grade was $2000 a dozen years ago.

    I have no doubt that Mr. Albanese is a quality grader. From the edification, maybe the best in the business. I have been waiting a decade though for the other shoe to fall and for CAC to go full service as PCGS and NGC have. Not doing so has at the least splintered the coin community. Sure a $13 submission can yield a tremendous return, but the flip side is the fellows that are more transparent, and offer a full service, not just sinew and glue, carry an invisible scarlet letter. A question mark that cheapens the value of otherwise coins.

    There is no such thing as one stop grading today for expensive coins. Send it to California and then to New Jersey. Coin has to move 6000 miles to become market acceptable.

    Time for CAC to go all in with a full service facility or at least reveal the failed submissions on a public database so that the owners of non submitted coins will not be penalized.

    Here is another disagree for you. Makes no sense to become a full-service TPGS. PLEASE give us at least two really good reasons (pluses) for JA to do this. As usual, I'll be disappointed that another one of my direct questions to a member was not answered; yet I'll be waiting.

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @Coinstartled said:

    @marcmoish said:

    @Coinstartled said:

    @Insider2 said:
    @Coinstartled said: " ...and how about JA creates his own forum or at least a managed Q&A platform instead of transmitting through mediums."

    For what? The medium is the telephone. It has been around a long time. Give it a try. :p

    Laura, TDN and now Wabbit have been the CU forum mouthpieces for CAC. Should I call JA each Sunday night as I consider bidding at Great Collections and inquire which coins have failed and which were never evaluated?

    The winners are proudly displayed. The losers buried in a non public database.

    Going back to this comment that prob got lost in the mayhem, I hear and know many put credence into this green bean and prefer coins CAC'd, I believe those that are truly fighting it might not have green slabs or coins that would pass the muster, hence all the nonsense and bad vibes at CAC. Originally years ago, I perceived this service as extra and excessive, however being the US market has evolved, and has born us too many doctors, fraudsters and coin shysters I have become very grateful for CAC. While not fool-proof I totally get why these are preferred, and attain stronger prices.

    That said, I'm on hold 1 hour now on my rotary phone awaiting JA to get back to me re a few pcs at GC tonite. Last he mumbled to me was he's gotta get that wabbit off the phone first.

    Marcmoish, many have been in the hobby/business longer than my 15 years, but this is my observation since 2003. In that time there has been a value adder, free (or close to free) money, if you will. Crackout resubmissions and TPG crosses made many submitters small fortunes with limited risk. As energy can neither be created or destroyed, neither can numismatic windfalls. For every Washington bumped from MS 66 to 67, a bit of air came out of populations. I sold a 1941-D in PCGS 67 several months ago for about $350. Same coin and grade was $2000 a dozen years ago.

    I have no doubt that Mr. Albanese is a quality grader. From the edification, maybe the best in the business. I have been waiting a decade though for the other shoe to fall and for CAC to go full service as PCGS and NGC have. Not doing so has at the least splintered the coin community. Sure a $13 submission can yield a tremendous return, but the flip side is the fellows that are more transparent, and offer a full service, not just sinew and glue, carry an invisible scarlet letter. A question mark that cheapens the value of otherwise coins.

    There is no such thing as one stop grading today for expensive coins. Send it to California and then to New Jersey. Coin has to move 6000 miles to become market acceptable.

    Time for CAC to go all in with a full service facility or at least reveal the failed submissions on a public database so that the owners of non submitted coins will not be penalized.

    Here is another disagree for you. Makes no sense to become a full-service TPGS. PLEASE give us at least two really good reasons (pluses) for JA to do this. As usual, I'll be disappointed that another one of my direct questions to a member was not answered; yet I'll be waiting.

    3 pages ago the issue was potential libel and now I am his business advisor?

    Deep breath...deep breath.

    JA can run his business as he pleases and it is doubtful that any suggestions made here will be considered. Some will continue to like CAC, some will love CAC and many will remain critical.

    Wabbit was likely expecting a moderately short response to his CAC thread to end all CAC threads, but here we are about 3 days in, aggressively debating the benefits and the drawbacks.

    Count the names on both sides and you will see that the question marks still remain.

    GC is now live and I've got work to do!

  • GazesGazes Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinstartled said:

    @Insider2 said:

    @Coinstartled said:

    @marcmoish said:

    @Coinstartled said:

    @Insider2 said:
    @Coinstartled said: " ...and how about JA creates his own forum or at least a managed Q&A platform instead of transmitting through mediums."

    For what? The medium is the telephone. It has been around a long time. Give it a try. :p

    Laura, TDN and now Wabbit have been the CU forum mouthpieces for CAC. Should I call JA each Sunday night as I consider bidding at Great Collections and inquire which coins have failed and which were never evaluated?

    The winners are proudly displayed. The losers buried in a non public database.

    Going back to this comment that prob got lost in the mayhem, I hear and know many put credence into this green bean and prefer coins CAC'd, I believe those that are truly fighting it might not have green slabs or coins that would pass the muster, hence all the nonsense and bad vibes at CAC. Originally years ago, I perceived this service as extra and excessive, however being the US market has evolved, and has born us too many doctors, fraudsters and coin shysters I have become very grateful for CAC. While not fool-proof I totally get why these are preferred, and attain stronger prices.

    That said, I'm on hold 1 hour now on my rotary phone awaiting JA to get back to me re a few pcs at GC tonite. Last he mumbled to me was he's gotta get that wabbit off the phone first.

    Marcmoish, many have been in the hobby/business longer than my 15 years, but this is my observation since 2003. In that time there has been a value adder, free (or close to free) money, if you will. Crackout resubmissions and TPG crosses made many submitters small fortunes with limited risk. As energy can neither be created or destroyed, neither can numismatic windfalls. For every Washington bumped from MS 66 to 67, a bit of air came out of populations. I sold a 1941-D in PCGS 67 several months ago for about $350. Same coin and grade was $2000 a dozen years ago.

    I have no doubt that Mr. Albanese is a quality grader. From the edification, maybe the best in the business. I have been waiting a decade though for the other shoe to fall and for CAC to go full service as PCGS and NGC have. Not doing so has at the least splintered the coin community. Sure a $13 submission can yield a tremendous return, but the flip side is the fellows that are more transparent, and offer a full service, not just sinew and glue, carry an invisible scarlet letter. A question mark that cheapens the value of otherwise coins.

    There is no such thing as one stop grading today for expensive coins. Send it to California and then to New Jersey. Coin has to move 6000 miles to become market acceptable.

    Time for CAC to go all in with a full service facility or at least reveal the failed submissions on a public database so that the owners of non submitted coins will not be penalized.

    Here is another disagree for you. Makes no sense to become a full-service TPGS. PLEASE give us at least two really good reasons (pluses) for JA to do this. As usual, I'll be disappointed that another one of my direct questions to a member was not answered; yet I'll be waiting.

    3 pages ago the issue was potential libel and now I am his business advisor?

    Deep breath...deep breath.

    JA can run his business as he pleases and it is doubtful that any suggestions made here will be considered. Some will continue to like CAC, some will love CAC and many will remain critical.

    Wabbit was likely expecting a moderately short response to his CAC thread to end all CAC threads, but here we are about 3 days in, aggressively debating the benefits and the drawbacks.

    Count the names on both sides and you will see that the question marks still remain.

    GC is now live and I've got work to do!

    lol. you say count names on both sides and lots of question Marks based on the length of this thread. if I start on Page 3 to the current---just you and top stuff account for about 30% of the posts. I think a few people have question Marks about cac. As I've said before feel free to never buy a CaC coin and you wont have to worry about this.

  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2018 5:25PM

    Many are buying nice non CAC coins over $500 bc they don’t want to pay say 20pct over that price.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Gazes said:

    @Coinstartled said:

    @Insider2 said:

    @Coinstartled said:

    @marcmoish said:

    @Coinstartled said:

    @Insider2 said:
    @Coinstartled said: " ...and how about JA creates his own forum or at least a managed Q&A platform instead of transmitting through mediums."

    For what? The medium is the telephone. It has been around a long time. Give it a try. :p

    Laura, TDN and now Wabbit have been the CU forum mouthpieces for CAC. Should I call JA each Sunday night as I consider bidding at Great Collections and inquire which coins have failed and which were never evaluated?

    The winners are proudly displayed. The losers buried in a non public database.

    Going back to this comment that prob got lost in the mayhem, I hear and know many put credence into this green bean and prefer coins CAC'd, I believe those that are truly fighting it might not have green slabs or coins that would pass the muster, hence all the nonsense and bad vibes at CAC. Originally years ago, I perceived this service as extra and excessive, however being the US market has evolved, and has born us too many doctors, fraudsters and coin shysters I have become very grateful for CAC. While not fool-proof I totally get why these are preferred, and attain stronger prices.

    That said, I'm on hold 1 hour now on my rotary phone awaiting JA to get back to me re a few pcs at GC tonite. Last he mumbled to me was he's gotta get that wabbit off the phone first.

    Marcmoish, many have been in the hobby/business longer than my 15 years, but this is my observation since 2003. In that time there has been a value adder, free (or close to free) money, if you will. Crackout resubmissions and TPG crosses made many submitters small fortunes with limited risk. As energy can neither be created or destroyed, neither can numismatic windfalls. For every Washington bumped from MS 66 to 67, a bit of air came out of populations. I sold a 1941-D in PCGS 67 several months ago for about $350. Same coin and grade was $2000 a dozen years ago.

    I have no doubt that Mr. Albanese is a quality grader. From the edification, maybe the best in the business. I have been waiting a decade though for the other shoe to fall and for CAC to go full service as PCGS and NGC have. Not doing so has at the least splintered the coin community. Sure a $13 submission can yield a tremendous return, but the flip side is the fellows that are more transparent, and offer a full service, not just sinew and glue, carry an invisible scarlet letter. A question mark that cheapens the value of otherwise coins.

    There is no such thing as one stop grading today for expensive coins. Send it to California and then to New Jersey. Coin has to move 6000 miles to become market acceptable.

    Time for CAC to go all in with a full service facility or at least reveal the failed submissions on a public database so that the owners of non submitted coins will not be penalized.

    Here is another disagree for you. Makes no sense to become a full-service TPGS. PLEASE give us at least two really good reasons (pluses) for JA to do this. As usual, I'll be disappointed that another one of my direct questions to a member was not answered; yet I'll be waiting.

    3 pages ago the issue was potential libel and now I am his business advisor?

    Deep breath...deep breath.

    JA can run his business as he pleases and it is doubtful that any suggestions made here will be considered. Some will continue to like CAC, some will love CAC and many will remain critical.

    Wabbit was likely expecting a moderately short response to his CAC thread to end all CAC threads, but here we are about 3 days in, aggressively debating the benefits and the drawbacks.

    Count the names on both sides and you will see that the question marks still remain.

    GC is now live and I've got work to do!

    lol. you say count names on both sides and lots of question Marks based on the length of this thread. if I start on Page 3 to the current---just you and top stuff account for about 30% of the posts. I think a few people have question Marks about cac. As I've said before feel free to never buy a CaC coin and you wont have to worry about this.

    Remove me and Topstuf and Wabbit and insider and you still have an energetic debate.

    Start a "Let's finally clear up the NGC myths" and you may get a dozen responses, maybe 50 but not 300.

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Cougar1978 said:
    Many are buying nice non CAC coins over $500 bc they don’t want to pay say 20pct over that price.

    So in two years they can have the fun of trying to find someone who would even want it.
    This IS the curtain call for the unbeaned.

    Watch.

  • 10000lakes10000lakes Posts: 811 ✭✭✭✭

    @Coinstartled said:

    Time for CAC to go all in with a full service facility or at least reveal the failed submissions on a public database so that the owners of non submitted coins will not be penalized.

    Publishing the failed coins won't work. All you have to do is send the coin (in holder) for a regrade and it will come out with a new (clean in CAC database) cert #.

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "FAILED COINS " :s
    Ya gotta luvvit!
    What a terrific evolution in coin collecting! :'(

  • panexpoguypanexpoguy Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Cougar1978 said:
    Many are buying nice non CAC coins over $500 bc they don’t want to pay say 20pct over that price.

    I agree that there are plenty of nice coins out there without CAC stickers and when I see them I buy them and most sticker. 45 years of collecting stamps, postal history and coins has taught me there are generally two types of collections. Ones filled with great items, and others filled with great bargains.

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There are plenty of dealers that still won't send coins to CAC, and/or eBay sellers in the same boat. I find them all the time, and they pass sometimes.

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Wabbit2313 said:
    There are plenty of dealers that still won't send coins to CAC, and/or eBay sellers in the same boat. I find them all the time, and they pass sometimes.

    That's true. Jerry's Coin and Pizza absolutely refuses to submit. :p

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2018 6:12PM

    @topstuf said:

    @Wabbit2313 said:
    There are plenty of dealers that still won't send coins to CAC, and/or eBay sellers in the same boat. I find them all the time, and they pass sometimes.

    That's true. Jerry's Coin and Pizza absolutely refuses to submit. :p

    My 3 local guys refuse to send them, and I smile and buy them.

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @10000lakes said:

    @Coinstartled said:

    Time for CAC to go all in with a full service facility or at least reveal the failed submissions on a public database so that the owners of non submitted coins will not be penalized.

    Publishing the failed coins won't work. All you have to do is send the coin (in holder) for a regrade and it will come out with a new (clean in CAC database) cert #.

    Good point but the owner of the never submitted TPG pre current generation coin has evidence of such and the sticker flipper guy has another hurdle.

    Both positive.

  • marcmoishmarcmoish Posts: 6,209 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinstartled
    I truly don't believe JA was ever planning on opening a TPG to compete with the present big boys. As far as my limited knowledge that is.
    The reasons CAC exist, and has done quite well have been stated, and commented here on these pages for years now, and to me personally it makes sense as I stated earlier.
    You don't have to love the whole concept of the bean, but it definitely served/serves a valid purpose for many.

  • 3keepSECRETif2rDEAD3keepSECRETif2rDEAD Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭✭✭

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @topstuf said:

    @Wabbit2313 said:
    There are plenty of dealers that still won't send coins to CAC, and/or eBay sellers in the same boat. I find them all the time, and they pass sometimes.

    That's true. Jerry's Coin and Pizza absolutely refuses to submit. :p

    So that really is mold on the green pepperoni?

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2018 7:29PM

    I > @3keepSECRETif2rDEAD said:

    This is the most accurate post in the whole string.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • AlexinPAAlexinPA Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't know but there has been a lot of useful information from both sides.

  • specialistspecialist Posts: 956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    _____There are plenty of dealers that still won't send coins to CAC, and/or eBay sellers in the same boat. I find them all the time, and they pass sometimes._____

    My comment to this-why would any dealer not want to make more $? There is one major dealer who is a coin doc who sells bad copper. He is well known. He tells his customers he does not trust CAC so he does not submit ( I have also heard he calls it a fad). Some how he has a spell on his customers and they buy this retoned garbage. Sadly, when these people sell, they will be woken up. I know one will be big time very soon.

    There is nothing to debate about CAC. It is now more then proven. Its got a far less error rate then the big guys-and buying CAC will not allow you to buy a doctored coin.

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018 5:45AM

    @specialist said:
    _____There are plenty of dealers that still won't send coins to CAC, and/or eBay sellers in the same boat. I find them all the time, and they pass sometimes._____

    My comment to this-why would any dealer not want to make more $?

    In regard to the dealers where the only motive is to make more money, I agree with you.

    To conclude that the debate is over, Laura, we have to come to unanimous agreement that there is no grading company that is competent to handle anything beyond a widget.

    You have made that determination, but many of us on the forum have not.

  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I really appreciated this thread as it gave me a lot to think about re: my own collection. I liked the discussion.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinstartled said: "...That said, I'm on hold 1 hour now on my rotary phone awaiting JA to get back to me re a few pcs at GC tonite. Last he mumbled to me was he's gotta get that wabbit off the phone first."

    "Time for CAC to go all in with a full service facility or at least reveal the failed submissions on a public database so that the owners of non submitted coins will not be penalized."

    Rather than make up silly things about members here, it's probably best to think up more really informative discussions as you ;) have in the past. I like the one about throwing coins as it inspired <3 me to try to out do you with my silly "stacking" discussion.

    IMO, it makes no sense for CAC to become a full-service TPGS. So I asked a simple question. PLEASE give us at least two really good reasons for JA to do this.

    This was posted yet NO ANSWER TO MY SIMPLE QUESTION:

    "3 pages ago the issue was potential libel and now I am his business advisor? Deep breath...deep breath."

    Take your time, I'm still waiting...

    "JA can run his business as he pleases and it is doubtful that any suggestions made here will be considered. Some will continue to like CAC, some will love CAC and many will remain critical."

    I agree and he has not become a full service TPGS. I'm hoping that all of us can figure out why he has not.

    Can anyone else who thinks CAC should become a full-service TPGS provide two good reasons to support this opinion?

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Did this thread create more questions than it answered? >:)

    Here is some food for thought:

    If you have a coin in an old blue holder with a MS66 grade and a green bean that is really a
    MS67- today, is worth more as the MS66 CAC or as a MS67-? I'm not sure the answer is always clear.

    If a coin needs to not only be undergraded by 1 point but also be PQ for the grade above to get a gold sticker, then the sticker strikes me as ambiguous. How does one separate the A+ coins (i.e. 67- in a 66 CAC holder) from the "regular" A and B (66 coins in a 66 CAC holder) quality coins?

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018 9:31AM

    @Insider2 said:
    @Coinstartled said: "...That said, I'm on hold 1 hour now on my rotary phone awaiting JA to get back to me re a few pcs at GC tonite. Last he mumbled to me was he's gotta get that wabbit off the phone first."

    "Time for CAC to go all in with a full service facility or at least reveal the failed submissions on a public database so that the owners of non submitted coins will not be penalized."

    Rather than make up silly things about members here, it's probably best to think up more really informative discussions as you ;) have in the past. I like the one about throwing coins as it inspired <3 me to try to out do you with my silly "stacking" discussion.

    IMO, it makes no sense for CAC to become a full-service TPGS. So I asked a simple question. PLEASE give us at least two really good reasons for JA to do this.

    This was posted yet NO ANSWER TO MY SIMPLE QUESTION:

    "3 pages ago the issue was potential libel and now I am his business advisor? Deep breath...deep breath."

    Take your time, I'm still waiting...

    "JA can run his business as he pleases and it is doubtful that any suggestions made here will be considered. Some will continue to like CAC, some will love CAC and many will remain critical."

    I agree and he has not become a full service TPGS. I'm hoping that all of us can figure out why he has not.

    Can anyone else who thinks CAC should become a full-service TPGS provide two good reasons to support this opinion?

    From JA's perspective or the market's perspective?

    CAC makes sense from JA's perspective: Get paid to review coins that you will flip later; trade coins consistently for a small mark up that guarantees constant profit to other dealers with out headache; have no liabilities, guarantees, or legalities to worry about; and he is free to retire and close shop at will. For his purpose and perspective, it is a brilliant approach and nice way to guarantee income stream.

    From a market perspective: A new grading service would eliminate coin purgatory... An otherwise wholesome "C" coin may get passed over for a "B" coin for the grade below when the "C" coin would be an "A" coin for the grade below because of sticker gap. Think of it like Medicare Part D - it is the numismatic version of Medicare "doughnut holes." >:) In other words, is a 66 "B" coin with a sticker worth more than a problem free 67 "C" coin without a sticker? The market often treats it as such.

  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Glad things are all cleared up now.

    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:
    Did this thread create more questions than it answered? >:)

    Here is some food for thought:

    If you have a coin in an old blue holder with a MS66 grade and a green bean that is really a
    MS67- today, is worth more as the MS66 CAC or as a MS67-? I'm not sure the answer is always clear.

    If a coin needs to not only be undergraded by 1 point but also be PQ for the grade above to get a gold sticker, then the sticker strikes me as ambiguous. How does one separate the A+ coins (i.e. 67- in a 66 CAC holder) from the "regular" A and B (66 coins in a 66 CAC holder) quality coins?

    I'm going to take a GUESS that there are so few gold beans around that few folks need to make this decision.

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Insider2 said:
    @Coinstartled said: "...That said, I'm on hold 1 hour now on my rotary phone awaiting JA to get back to me re a few pcs at GC tonite. Last he mumbled to me was he's gotta get that wabbit off the phone first."

    "Time for CAC to go all in with a full service facility or at least reveal the failed submissions on a public database so that the owners of non submitted coins will not be penalized."

    Rather than make up silly things about members here, it's probably best to think up more really informative discussions as you ;) have in the past. I like the one about throwing coins as it inspired <3 me to try to out do you with my silly "stacking" discussion.

    IMO, it makes no sense for CAC to become a full-service TPGS. So I asked a simple question. PLEASE give us at least two really good reasons for JA to do this.

    This was posted yet NO ANSWER TO MY SIMPLE QUESTION:

    "3 pages ago the issue was potential libel and now I am his business advisor? Deep breath...deep breath."

    Take your time, I'm still waiting...

    "JA can run his business as he pleases and it is doubtful that any suggestions made here will be considered. Some will continue to like CAC, some will love CAC and many will remain critical."

    I agree and he has not become a full service TPGS. I'm hoping that all of us can figure out why he has not.

    Can anyone else who thinks CAC should become a full-service TPGS provide two good reasons to support this opinion?

    From JA's perspective or the market's perspective?

    CAC makes sense from JA's perspective: Get paid to review coins that you will flip later; trade coins consistently for a small mark up that guarantees constant profit to other dealers with out headache; have no liabilities, guarantees, or legalities to worry about; and he is free to retire and close shop at will. For his purpose and perspective, it is a brilliant approach and nice way to guarantee income stream.

    From a market perspective: A new grading service would eliminate coin purgatory... An otherwise wholesome "C" coin may get passed over for a "B" coin for the grade below when the "C" coin would be an "A" coin for the grade below because of sticker gap. Think of it like Medicare Part D - it is the numismatic version of Medicare "doughnut holes." >:) In other words, is a 66 "B" coin with a sticker worth more than a problem free 67 "C" coin without a sticker? The market often treats it as such.

    The only perspective that matters is that of JA and CAC.

    Screw the market and all the myths and silly guesses/opinions like: If the slab has no bean it failed, it is not decent for the grade, a coin this valuable should have been sent in to CAC already, etc LOL

    Folks who know how to grade and know the prevailing standards used by the TPGS's at this time must laugh at these discussions and rarely bother to post in them. TPGS are to be used ($$$). Same goes for CAC ($$$). :wink:

  • OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @topstuf said:
    I simply can not see this ending up as anything BUT ...virtually... killing the market for ALL unstickered coins.

    BINGO!

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    Folks who know how to grade and know the prevailing standards used by the TPGS's at this time must laugh at these discussions and rarely bother to post in them. TPGS are to be used ($$$). Same goes for CAC ($$$). :wink:

    So true. The crack out game was fun up until about a year or so ago when the standards changed... again and not in a good way $$$$ wise. :/

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Outhaul said:

    @topstuf said:
    I simply can not see this ending up as anything BUT ...virtually... killing the market for ALL unstickered coins.

    BINGO!

    Bingo is correct and the folks who benefit the most are the true collectors as many coin prices retreat from their highs making a two tier market. :)

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018 9:58AM

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Insider2 said:
    Folks who know how to grade and know the prevailing standards used by the TPGS's at this time must laugh at these discussions and rarely bother to post in them. TPGS are to be used ($$$). Same goes for CAC ($$$). :wink:

    So true. The crack out game was fun up until about a year or so ago when the standards changed... again and not in a good way $$$$ wise. :/

    LOL, what are you talking about? Everyone knows the grading "standards" do not change!

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 Skip! You are just ticked that John does not even recognize you guys as legit. I would be also!

    At least eBay and Centsles do! You are giving out MS66 Morgans so fast he has to sell them by the 100 lot!!!

    .

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018 10:09AM

    @Insider2 said:

    @Outhaul said:

    @topstuf said:
    I simply can not see this ending up as anything BUT ...virtually... killing the market for ALL unstickered coins.

    BINGO!

    Bingo is correct and the folks who benefit the most are the true collectors as many coin prices retreat from their highs making a two tier market. :)

    When you wipe out the bottom tier, it is only a matter of time before the top tier collapses too. I guess as collectors we can be happy when most coins trade like 90% bullion.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    LOL. I've talked to JA twice about allowing ANACS and ICG to be stickered. To me it means more money for CAC as a coin is what it is. JA has his own reasons for only allowing NGC and PCGS coins to be checked.

    Same thing happened with a major auction house. ICG was their only service of choice for problem coins. Then NGC and PCGS began to "detail" coins. They no longer use the second tier service. So what. Best of all, when this happened the collector benefited.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018 10:22AM

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Insider2 said:

    @Outhaul said:

    @topstuf said:
    I simply can not see this ending up as anything BUT ...virtually... killing the market for ALL unstickered coins.

    BINGO!

    Bingo is correct and the folks who benefit the most are the true collectors as many coin prices retreat from their highs making a two tier market. :)

    When you wipe out the bottom tier, it is only a matter of time before the top tier collapses too. I guess as collectors we can be happy when most coins trade like 90% bullion.

    Then we can all collect $20 gold coins. :)

    Those who look at coins as a business/investment may suffer. Those who collect coins for fun or as a hobby will not care. And don't tell me about their future resale as knowledgeable folks know the "ropes."

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    Same thing happened with a major auction house. ICG was their only service of choice for problem coins. Then NGC and PCGS began to "detail" coins. They no longer use the second tier service. So what. Best of all, when this happened the collector benefited.

    Wait... Now I'm confused. Are you saying the market is better off with fewer ICG slabs on the market?

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018 10:41AM

    @Insider2 said:

    @Outhaul said:

    @topstuf said:
    I simply can not see this ending up as anything BUT ...virtually... killing the market for ALL unstickered coins.

    BINGO!

    Bingo is correct and the folks who benefit the most are the true collectors as many coin prices retreat from their highs making a two tier market. :)

    They will all be smiling brightly at F.U.N, I am sure, as they hear the giant toilet flush once again.

    Stock market tumbling will bring even more joy.

    ........................................................................................(_) Disagree.

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    @Coinstartled said: "...That said, I'm on hold 1 hour now on my rotary phone awaiting JA to get back to me re a few pcs at GC tonite. Last he mumbled to me was he's gotta get that wabbit off the phone first."

    "Time for CAC to go all in with a full service facility or at least reveal the failed submissions on a public database so that the owners of non submitted coins will not be penalized."

    Rather than make up silly things about members here, it's probably best to think up more really informative discussions as you ;) have in the past. I like the one about throwing coins as it inspired <3 me to try to out do you with my silly "stacking" discussion.

    IMO, it makes no sense for CAC to become a full-service TPGS. So I asked a simple question. PLEASE give us at least two really good reasons for JA to do this.

    This was posted yet NO ANSWER TO MY SIMPLE QUESTION:

    "3 pages ago the issue was potential libel and now I am his business advisor? Deep breath...deep breath."

    Take your time, I'm still waiting...

    "JA can run his business as he pleases and it is doubtful that any suggestions made here will be considered. Some will continue to like CAC, some will love CAC and many will remain critical."

    I agree and he has not become a full service TPGS. I'm hoping that all of us can figure out why he has not.

    Can anyone else who thinks CAC should become a full-service TPGS provide two good reasons to support this opinion?

    You changed the question, Insider. I answered the first...and now the second as posed.

    1. By CAC going full service, collectors would have a choice of three highly regarded TPG's. No more parasitic hanger on, CAC would be a single submission destination for those that think the results would be most beneficial.

    No more of the green and even more so gold sticker interpretation. An MS65 would be an MS65 coin. Mitigate or eliminate the A, B, or door C, debates.

    1. I would expect that the staff would have to expand, and that would lessen the perception of a one man brand. A less chaotic scenario in the eyes of collectors in the event that JA steps back or out of the business.
  • GazesGazes Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:
    Did this thread create more questions than it answered? >:)

    Here is some food for thought:

    If you have a coin in an old blue holder with a MS66 grade and a green bean that is really a
    MS67- today, is worth more as the MS66 CAC or as a MS67-? I'm not sure the answer is always clear.

    If a coin needs to not only be undergraded by 1 point but also be PQ for the grade above to get a gold sticker, then the sticker strikes me as ambiguous. How does one separate the A+ coins (i.e. 67- in a 66 CAC holder) from the "regular" A and B (66 coins in a 66 CAC holder) quality coins?

    I see so many posts trying to state that there is a total chaos and confusion. Are we better off now that there is PCGS and CAC available compared to the days before these services? Of course. Will there still be areas that are murky---yes, grading is an art, not a science. It is fine that some collectors believe a coin is arguably a high end 66 and some think it is a low end 67. However, we now have more information than ever. We have third party grading services. We have PCGS coin facts with images and auction results. We have PCGS census data. We can use all this trace a coin's history and appearance. We now have CAC that reviews coins that are solid or strong for the grade. CAC provides census information. In other words, we have much more certainity about the grade of a coin than ever before. If someone wants there to be 100% agreement and certainty regarding grading---that will never happen.

  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018 11:26AM

    So far, I've heard nothing that could not be learned from that famous 2014 thread. :p The one that quoted the notorious 2011 thread. B) Or was that the Feb 2018 rehash... :#

    Or.... :s

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ColonelJessup said:
    So far, I've heard nothing that could not be learned from that famous 2014 thread. The one that quoted the notorious 2011 thread. Or was that the Feb 2018 rehash...

    Or.... :s

    Maybe you can't HANDLE the thread. :p
    If you don't watch out, ...MAJOR.... Jessup could be in your future. :D

  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018 11:38AM

    I already have a pardon arranged That would be a minor impediment >:)

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018 11:42AM

    "Was you ever stung by a dead bee ?" - Walter Brennan, Rio Bravo, 1959 :#:p

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,721 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just for fun, here is a copy of a post I made in 2014. Some of the photo links are broken and some of the data is old, but I generally feel the same way about things now as I did back then.

    Mostly, I think it's a big game and grading isn't nearly the science we want to think it is. Acceptability, originality, and eye appeal all exist on a continuum and one person's opinion will never be exactly the same as another's.

    Enjoy:

    If you hang around the coin community long enough you start to hear and even believe some really funny things. Many of these things get repeated and some of them become virtual dogma. When it comes to grading, it's almost universally accepted that "solid for grade" coins are better than "barely there coins." This idea strikes me as absurd. Let me illustrate:

    Caveats: I know grading is subjective. I know inter-observer reliability and test-retest reliability in grading is poor. I know grading in tenths of points is ridiculous. I know that grading standards change with time. There is some protection to be had if you're holding the "nice for grade coin" when standards shift, etc., etc. Bear with me........

    The 1922 Philadelphia Peace dollar is an incredibly common issue. Assuming no crack-outs, the PCGS Pop Reports show that there are this many graded examples:

    MS-63 58,100
    MS-64 44,961
    MS-63 3,680
    MS-66 763
    MS-67 24

    Let's assume that you could take all 107,528 of these coins and lay them out on a large table. Let's then take the 100 best graders in the world and ask each of them in turn to arrange these coins in order from best to worst. We'll repeat this exercise 10 or 20 times to ensure accuracy and finally we'll average the results. Each coin can now be assigned a numerical grade that we can all agree will be its "True Grade". Taking some liberties, and rounding to the nearest tenth of a grade, the distribution might look something like this:

    image

    Because there are very few coins at the top end, the data is easier to show with a logarithmic graph like this:

    image

    We can see right away that there is a sharp drop-off somewhere between MS-64 and MS-65. Probably this occurrence reflects the true quality of what is extant and part of this might be due to the notion that it takes something special for a coin to achieve "gem" status. We can see from the Price Guide that there is a sharp jump in price between MS66+ and MS67. This likely reflects what happens when scarcity collides with the existence of a handful of truly wealthy individuals who chase "Only the Best."

    Ever since the advent of the Sheldon scale and its ongoing divisions, certain coins have always been considered nice for grade. This has been called "Plus", "Plus Plus", "PQ", "PPPPPQ", "Virtually the next grade", and a whole slug of other things. The two TPGs jointly decided to create plus grades a few years back. Per the announcement, this was felt to represent perhaps the top 15 or 20% of the coins in each grade. This looks something like this:

    image

    Certain other grading services have divided up coins within each grade into "A" coins, "B" coins, and "C" coins. They put their stickers on the slabs of all but the "C" coins and are ordinarily agreeable to thereafter purchase the stickered coins at a published price. This might look something like this:

    image

    All of this is fine and good. Markets seek reassurance and definition, and confidence and liquidity have been greatly assisted by the advent of the various grading services.

    Here's where it gets weird. Most of us here are conditioned to hunt for the finest coins in each grade. Posting a photo of a coin that is low quality for grade is often grounds for ridicule, criticism, or a general public flogging. I know I enjoy it immensely when I post a coin that everyone says is clearly sharp for grade. I have several coins that I don't show for fear of having the obvious pointed out to me. <img src=https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif" border="0"> The sentiment has been carried to the point that some find it desirable to buy MS65 coins, crack them out, and get them into 64+ holders with a sticker. To each his own I suppose.

    Are we to believe that the coins in blue are worthless junk that we should be ashamed to own?

    image

    Are we to believe that MS63 coins should sell for around $52 while the MS63+ coins should retail for $53? Should the 66.01 coin sell for $700 while the 66.99 (plus, stickered) coin should sell for $2,025? Per the Price Guide the 67.00 coin should sell for $13,500. Obviously this is absurd, and variations in quality are obviously reflected in auction results....... or are they? If you look carefully at auction prices, any coin that makes the grade above "the jump" trades for multiples of the nicest coin at the next grade down. In the last eight years, no 1922 Peace dollars have traded between $3,100 and $8,000 on Heritage. The MS67 coins go for more and the MS66+ coins go for less. Is that logical? I say nay nay. Surely there is a really, really stellar 1922 MS66+ coin out there somewhere that is the virtual twin of an MS67 coin selling for three times as much.

    Perhaps the real trick is to understand that there is a reasonably fair price for a coin at each point along the continuum and to be able to grade well enough to understand this..... All of this to accomplish the actual goal, which is to have fun (if you're a collector), or make a living (if you're a dealer).

    OK. My brain is tired and I'm out of time. What say you?

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018 11:45AM

    "Not much of value ever shows up after the 101st post."

    Euripides

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Insider2 said:
    Same thing happened with a major auction house. ICG was their only service of choice for problem coins. Then NGC and PCGS began to "detail" coins. They no longer use the second tier service. So what. Best of all, when this happened the collector benefited.

    Wait... Now I'm confused. Are you saying the market is better off with fewer ICG slabs on the market?

    You sure are! I don't know how you could read that into my post! While the business of one grading service suffered, collectors benefited. No more body bags and all coins graded. Win, win!

  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BryceM said:

    Perhaps the real trick is to understand that there is a reasonably fair price for a coin at each point along the continuum and to be able to grade well enough to understand this..... All of this to accomplish the actual goal, which is to have fun (if you're a collector), or make a living (if you're a dealer).

    Are you trying to kill off this thread with a rational appreciation of the overall market?
    Does the number 300 mean nothing to you? :s

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BryceM

    There has to be some medicine to fix you if you did all that "just for fun!"

This discussion has been closed.