@ACop said:
I have a question that hasnt been answered.
If the TPGs cant grade coins inside of slabs, how can JA? Is he a wizard?
a coin can have the correct grade and not get a sticker. CAC stickers A and B coins. Also, CAC prefers originality. I honestly cant understand why this is difficult for people to comprehend
Aside from the post of the op, this is the best explanation in the entire mess of postings in this thread. Unfortunately some people don't get it even though it is explained in writing on CAC's website.
Do you really buy the splitting coin grades into thirds, schtick? Even worse as the hypnotists (I mean graders) will tell you that they are not split that way by percentages, significantly more coins in the C grade than A and B.
The idea of A, B , and C coins is does not necessarily have to do with just splitting grades into thirds, it has to do with the overall grade and originality of the coin. Coins that typically get stickers are high end for the grade assigned on the holder and look original.
@ACop said:
I have a question that hasnt been answered.
If the TPGs cant grade coins inside of slabs, how can JA? Is he a wizard?
a coin can have the correct grade and not get a sticker. CAC stickers A and B coins. Also, CAC prefers originality. I honestly cant understand why this is difficult for people to comprehend
Aside from the post of the op, this is the best explanation in the entire mess of postings in this thread. Unfortunately some people don't get it even though it is explained in writing on CAC's website.
Do you really buy the splitting coin grades into thirds, schtick? Even worse as the hypnotists (I mean graders) will tell you that they are not split that way by percentages, significantly more coins in the C grade than A and B.
The idea of A, B , and C coins is does not necessarily have to do with just splitting grades into thirds, it has to do with the overall grade and originality of the coin. Coins that typically get stickers are high end for the grade assigned on the holder and look original.
Things get wobbly here. Would a coin not deemed original still be considered to be safely but near the bottom of a given numeric grade?
@ACop said:
I have a question that hasnt been answered.
If the TPGs cant grade coins inside of slabs, how can JA? Is he a wizard?
a coin can have the correct grade and not get a sticker. CAC stickers A and B coins. Also, CAC prefers originality. I honestly cant understand why this is difficult for people to comprehend
Aside from the post of the op, this is the best explanation in the entire mess of postings in this thread. Unfortunately some people don't get it even though it is explained in writing on CAC's website.
Do you really buy the splitting coin grades into thirds, schtick? Even worse as the hypnotists (I mean graders) will tell you that they are not split that way by percentages, significantly more coins in the C grade than A and B.
The idea of A, B , and C coins is does not necessarily have to do with just splitting grades into thirds, it has to do with the overall grade and originality of the coin. Coins that typically get stickers are high end for the grade assigned on the holder and look original.
Things get wobbly here. Would a coin not deemed original still be considered to be safely but near the bottom of a given numeric grade?
Why does it get "wobbly"? If it does not look original and near the bottom of a given grade then it does not get stickered.
@ACop said:
I have a question that hasnt been answered.
If the TPGs cant grade coins inside of slabs, how can JA? Is he a wizard?
a coin can have the correct grade and not get a sticker. CAC stickers A and B coins. Also, CAC prefers originality. I honestly cant understand why this is difficult for people to comprehend
Aside from the post of the op, this is the best explanation in the entire mess of postings in this thread. Unfortunately some people don't get it even though it is explained in writing on CAC's website.
Do you really buy the splitting coin grades into thirds, schtick? Even worse as the hypnotists (I mean graders) will tell you that they are not split that way by percentages, significantly more coins in the C grade than A and B.
Yes I believe there are coins that are high end for their given grade and they supposedly get stickered.
@ACop said:
I have a question that hasnt been answered.
If the TPGs cant grade coins inside of slabs, how can JA? Is he a wizard?
a coin can have the correct grade and not get a sticker. CAC stickers A and B coins. Also, CAC prefers originality. I honestly cant understand why this is difficult for people to comprehend
Aside from the post of the op, this is the best explanation in the entire mess of postings in this thread. Unfortunately some people don't get it even though it is explained in writing on CAC's website.
So first, I'm not a CAC basher, so don't start with that. I get it that CAC stickers A coins, and B coins, but not C coins. I would venture to guess that everyone of us who is on this chat board is smart enough to be able to count up to C in the alphabet.
But I have to point out for you who "honestly can't understand" that "some people don't get it" " that it is "explained in writing" that CAC stickers A and B coins and prefers originality, that maybe that is not really that clear and perhaps there are a few questions that have never been addressed, and ask you to consider responding to them if you know the answers.
Please go to the website and show us all where it is explained in writing that CAC prefers originality. Please tell us how CAC defines originality. Please tell us how CAC factors originality into determining an A or B or C coin. Please show us in writing how CAC qualifies an A or B or C coin, beyond "solid for the grade" or "high-end". Please explain how CAC defines a solid for the grade coin, or a high end coin. Please show us any standards that CAC employs to determine a solid for the grade coin or a high end coin. Please enlighten these people who just don't get it. I think they would be thrilled if you could explain to them any CAC standards.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
@Wabbit2313 said:
I'll find some blast white ones when I have time. As far as I'm concerned, this thread has been very civil and very friendly! (And fun)
@ACop said:
I have a question that hasnt been answered.
If the TPGs cant grade coins inside of slabs, how can JA? Is he a wizard?
a coin can have the correct grade and not get a sticker. CAC stickers A and B coins. Also, CAC prefers originality. I honestly cant understand why this is difficult for people to comprehend
Aside from the post of the op, this is the best explanation in the entire mess of postings in this thread. Unfortunately some people don't get it even though it is explained in writing on CAC's website.
So first, I'm not a CAC basher, so don't start with that. I get it that CAC stickers A coins, and B coins, but not C coins. I would venture to guess that everyone of us who is on this chat board is smart enough to be able to count up to C in the alphabet.
But I have to point out for you who "honestly can't understand" that "some people don't get it" " that it is "explained in writing" that CAC stickers A and B coins and prefers originality, that maybe that is not really that clear and perhaps there are a few questions that have never been addressed, and ask you to consider responding to them if you know the answers.
Please go to the website and show us all where it is explained in writing that CAC prefers originality. Please tell us how CAC defines originality. Please tell us how CAC factors originality into determining an A or B or C coin. Please show us in writing how CAC qualifies an A or B or C coin, beyond "solid for the grade" or "high-end". Please explain how CAC defines a solid for the grade coin, or a high end coin. Please show us any standards that CAC employs to determine a solid for the grade coin or a high end coin. Please enlighten these people who just don't get it. I think they would be thrilled if you could explain to them any CAC standards.
Simply, the sticker means "I'd willingly buy it as a..." whatever grade it's currently slabbed as. And, as a corollary, advertise, Sell and deliver it at that grade with no qualms.
As a proprietor's opinion, it needs no written standards. Folks' attempts to parse all the nuances are appreciated, but beyond the already extensive content of the thread, probably futile.
@ACop said:
I have a question that hasnt been answered.
If the TPGs cant grade coins inside of slabs, how can JA? Is he a wizard?
a coin can have the correct grade and not get a sticker. CAC stickers A and B coins. Also, CAC prefers originality. I honestly cant understand why this is difficult for people to comprehend
Aside from the post of the op, this is the best explanation in the entire mess of postings in this thread. Unfortunately some people don't get it even though it is explained in writing on CAC's website.
So first, I'm not a CAC basher, so don't start with that. I get it that CAC stickers A coins, and B coins, but not C coins. I would venture to guess that everyone of us who is on this chat board is smart enough to be able to count up to C in the alphabet.
But I have to point out for you who "honestly can't understand" that "some people don't get it" " that it is "explained in writing" that CAC stickers A and B coins and prefers originality, that maybe that is not really that clear and perhaps there are a few questions that have never been addressed, and ask you to consider responding to them if you know the answers.
Please go to the website and show us all where it is explained in writing that CAC prefers originality. Please tell us how CAC defines originality. Please tell us how CAC factors originality into determining an > @Paradisefound said:
R U guys still at it? CACme if you can ..... I am an NT
If I was CAC, i would give you a sticker, you're a gem.
@ACop said:
I have a question that hasnt been answered.
If the TPGs cant grade coins inside of slabs, how can JA? Is he a wizard?
a coin can have the correct grade and not get a sticker. CAC stickers A and B coins. Also, CAC prefers originality. I honestly cant understand why this is difficult for people to comprehend
Aside from the post of the op, this is the best explanation in the entire mess of postings in this thread. Unfortunately some people don't get it even though it is explained in writing on CAC's website.
So first, I'm not a CAC basher, so don't start with that. I get it that CAC stickers A coins, and B coins, but not C coins. I would venture to guess that everyone of us who is on this chat board is smart enough to be able to count up to C in the alphabet.
But I have to point out for you who "honestly can't understand" that "some people don't get it" " that it is "explained in writing" that CAC stickers A and B coins and prefers originality, that maybe that is not really that clear and perhaps there are a few questions that have never been addressed, and ask you to consider responding to them if you know the answers.
Please go to the website and show us all where it is explained in writing that CAC prefers originality. Please tell us how CAC defines originality. Please tell us how CAC factors originality into determining an A or B or C coin. Please show us in writing how CAC qualifies an A or B or C coin, beyond "solid for the grade" or "high-end". Please explain how CAC defines a solid for the grade coin, or a high end coin. Please show us any standards that CAC employs to determine a solid for the grade coin or a high end coin. Please enlighten these people who just don't get it. I think they would be thrilled if you could explain to them any CAC standards.
Simply, the sticker means "I'd willingly buy it as a..." whatever grade it's currently slabbed as. And, as a corollary, advertise, Sell and deliver it at that grade with no qualms.
As a proprietor's opinion, it needs no written standards. Folks' attempts to parse all the nuances are appreciated, but beyond the already extensive content of the thread, probably futile.
Earlier in the thread it was noted that the buy price was at a sub wholesale level. Numbers are critical.
CAC came about because people lie, lie and lie about the grade of a coin to maximize their profit. But if there are people who can give a more honest, clear explanation on the grade of a coin........the market becomes more stable, practicable and enduring. That's all I'm saying.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
@ACop said:
I have a question that hasnt been answered.
If the TPGs cant grade coins inside of slabs, how can JA? Is he a wizard?
a coin can have the correct grade and not get a sticker. CAC stickers A and B coins. Also, CAC prefers originality. I honestly cant understand why this is difficult for people to comprehend
Aside from the post of the op, this is the best explanation in the entire mess of postings in this thread. Unfortunately some people don't get it even though it is explained in writing on CAC's website.
So first, I'm not a CAC basher, so don't start with that. I get it that CAC stickers A coins, and B coins, but not C coins. I would venture to guess that everyone of us who is on this chat board is smart enough to be able to count up to C in the alphabet.
But I have to point out for you who "honestly can't understand" that "some people don't get it" " that it is "explained in writing" that CAC stickers A and B coins and prefers originality, that maybe that is not really that clear and perhaps there are a few questions that have never been addressed, and ask you to consider responding to them if you know the answers.
Please go to the website and show us all where it is explained in writing that CAC prefers originality. Please tell us how CAC defines originality. Please tell us how CAC factors originality into determining an A or B or C coin. Please show us in writing how CAC qualifies an A or B or C coin, beyond "solid for the grade" or "high-end". Please explain how CAC defines a solid for the grade coin, or a high end coin. Please show us any standards that CAC employs to determine a solid for the grade coin or a high end coin. Please enlighten these people who just don't get it. I think they would be thrilled if you could explain to them any CAC standards.
I apologize if I mislead about "originality " being listed in their requirements for a sticker, because no they do not actually say anything about it on their website. IMO "originality" is a part of a coins overall assigned grade. What makes a coin "original"? To me it depends on the coin. For example; a bright white proof seated half from 1868 is not original because IMO there is no way that it made it 150 years without some form of toning or the environment around it having some sort of effect on it. When it comes down to it coin grading has always been stated as subjective. Wouldn't all of these questions that you listed be answered better by CAC? Folks need to ask the right question to the right people. CAC states on their website how the coins get the sticker or not, plain and simple. I do not think that they need to explain grading.
Edited to add:
I am not going to say you are a CAC basher. If you like them or not, it does not matter to me. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
@ACop said:
I have a question that hasnt been answered.
If the TPGs cant grade coins inside of slabs, how can JA? Is he a wizard?
a coin can have the correct grade and not get a sticker. CAC stickers A and B coins. Also, CAC prefers originality. I honestly cant understand why this is difficult for people to comprehend
Aside from the post of the op, this is the best explanation in the entire mess of postings in this thread. Unfortunately some people don't get it even though it is explained in writing on CAC's website.
Do you really buy the splitting coin grades into thirds, schtick? Even worse as the hypnotists (I mean graders) will tell you that they are not split that way by percentages, significantly more coins in the C grade than A and B.
Let's add into the confusion that A coins and B coins get the same green sticker. I want an A coin. JA is this an A or a B??? How much more should an A coin be valued at over a B coin. Is JA saying As and Bs are the same??? Maybe someone will come along and sticker CACd coins to separate the As and Bs and FINALLY bring some clarity.
From the discussion, I'm assuming that A, B and C comprises the entire range of a grade, and that therefore CAC considers a stickered coin within the top 66% of the range.
That's a pretty broad range, but I guess it specifies the "solid for the grade" definition.
It also implies the C group as relatively weak for the grade (the lowest third), and possibly sliders. If people widely accept JA's opinion on such refinement, I can see why stickers significantly affect prices.
It seems that most people are hung up on "added value" the CAC theory offers.
It does seem like buyers pay over price guide and at the upper levels for CAC. If the CAC coins stay in the buyer's collection longer, then in my opinion CAC is more of a benefit to the seller to maximize profit.
In old gold which is my thing...only about 10 to 20% of the total surviving populations are CAC....obviously this is different by type of coin...from the CAC web site:
"It will be influenced by how many coins in a specific grade are considered low quality. For example, an MS 65 1922 $20 Saint with a CAC sticker might have a large bid price premium over market-acceptable non-stickered examples, because perhaps only 20% of those submitted will meet or exceed CAC’s high quality standards. A 1923-D $20 Saint could be a very different story, because there are a fairly large number of nice quality 1923-D Saints in MS 65 holders that should qualify for a CAC sticker. As a result, they will almost certainly trade at a smaller premium over the market-acceptable non-stickered coins."
From the discussion, I'm assuming that A, B and C comprises the entire range of a grade, and that therefore CAC considers a stickered coin within the top 66% of the range.
That's a pretty broad range, but I guess it specifies the "solid for the grade" definition.
It also implies the C group as relatively weak for the grade (the lowest third), and possibly sliders. If people widely accept JA's opinion on such refinement, I can see why stickers significantly affect prices.
@ACop said:
I have a question that hasnt been answered.
If the TPGs cant grade coins inside of slabs, how can JA? Is he a wizard?
a coin can have the correct grade and not get a sticker. CAC stickers A and B coins. Also, CAC prefers originality. I honestly cant understand why this is difficult for people to comprehend
Aside from the post of the op, this is the best explanation in the entire mess of postings in this thread. Unfortunately some people don't get it even though it is explained in writing on CAC's website.
So first, I'm not a CAC basher, so don't start with that. I get it that CAC stickers A coins, and B coins, but not C coins. I would venture to guess that everyone of us who is on this chat board is smart enough to be able to count up to C in the alphabet.
But I have to point out for you who "honestly can't understand" that "some people don't get it" " that it is "explained in writing" that CAC stickers A and B coins and prefers originality, that maybe that is not really that clear and perhaps there are a few questions that have never been addressed, and ask you to consider responding to them if you know the answers.
Please go to the website and show us all where it is explained in writing that CAC prefers originality. Please tell us how CAC defines originality. Please tell us how CAC factors originality into determining an A or B or C coin. Please show us in writing how CAC qualifies an A or B or C coin, beyond "solid for the grade" or "high-end". Please explain how CAC defines a solid for the grade coin, or a high end coin. Please show us any standards that CAC employs to determine a solid for the grade coin or a high end coin. Please enlighten these people who just don't get it. I think they would be thrilled if you could explain to them any CAC standards.
I apologize if I mislead about "originality " being listed in their requirements for a sticker, because no they do not actually say anything about it on their website. IMO "originality" is a part of a coins overall assigned grade. What makes a coin "original"? To me it depends on the coin. For example; a bright white proof seated half from 1868 is not original because IMO there is no way that it made it 150 years without some form of toning or the environment around it having some sort of effect on it. When it comes down to it coin grading has always been stated as subjective. Wouldn't all of these questions that you listed be answered better by CAC? Folks need to ask the right question to the right people. CAC states on their website how the coins get the sticker or not, plain and simple. I do not think that they need to explain grading.
Edited to add:
I am not going to say you are a CAC basher. If you like them or not, it does not matter to me. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
The conclusion that CAC prefers originality in many coins/slabs that get the sticker is not written down by them, but instead based on experience that many of us has had when submitting 100's of coins to them and I assume from conversations with JA by some. Do that (i.e. submit 100s of coins to them) and you will start to see what CAC prefers. Keep in mind what they call A and B coins is of course subjective and their preference. Not every one, even those with decades of experience, will always agree with the opinion of CAC. That is okay with me, but for an expensive coin, I want their opinion for sure. Keep in mind my experience is primarily with AU and lower grades and pre-1916 coins, I don't have experience with MS grades with them too much, so it could be dipped coins in MS grades are perfectly acceptable to them in certain circumstances.
If you buy a coin without a CAC sticker online without seeing in hand first, all I can say is beware because part of that 'originality' judgement by CAC is that they like coins that are not intentionally enhanced or altered. Many unbeaned coins have been messed with, which is why they don't bean. If that does not matter to the collector, then no worries buy the unbeaned coins at likely lower prices.
The issue of why JA does this service? Does he make money wholesaling CAC coins? Of course and that is why he beans, so he can buy beaned coins sight unseen and make a market in the coins he likes to sell. But the collateral to that is the benefit the collector gets from the service, if one does care about 'solid for the grade' and unmessed with surfaces, in the subjective way that CAC evaluates.
Many who know me can attest to the fact that I was a huge skeptic about CAC in the early years. But submitting 100s of coins to them won me over.
Is it likely that the older the coin, the fewer will CAC ? I say this without any research mainly because of how many old TPG graded coins have cabinet friction or some rub. I think this kind of market grading causes confusion and damage to my hobby.
@Ronyahski said:
I would venture to guess that everyone of us who is on this chat board is smart enough to be able to count up to C in the alphabet.
You are such an optimist.
But I have to point out for you who "honestly can't understand" that "some people don't get it" " that it is "explained in writing" that CAC stickers A and B coins and prefers originality, that maybe that is not really that clear and perhaps there are a few questions that have never been addressed, and ask you to consider responding to them if you know the answers.
Please go to the website and show us all where it is explained in writing that CAC prefers originality. Please tell us how CAC defines originality. Please tell us how CAC factors originality into determining an A or B or C coin. Please show us in writing how CAC qualifies an A or B or C coin, beyond "solid for the grade" or "high-end". Please explain how CAC defines a solid for the grade coin, or a high end coin. Please show us any standards that CAC employs to determine a solid for the grade coin or a high end coin. Please enlighten these people who just don't get it. I think they would be thrilled if you could explain to them any CAC standards.
CAC could clear up a lot of potential confusion with a simple website redesign or maybe even a new, enhanced FAQ page.
@spacehayduke said:
The conclusion that CAC prefers originality in many coins/slabs that get the sticker is not written down by them, but instead based on experience that many of us has had when submitting 100's of coins to them and I assume from conversations with JA by some. Do that (i.e. submit 100s of coins to them) and you will start to see what CAC prefers.
Then why do I see bright, dipped seated and barber coins with stickers or dipped/secondary toning on bust coinage with a green bean? Ditto for Morgans, but at least I understand that some blast white Morgans are undipped and were in the center of Mint bags.
Warren Mills interviewed JA in one of RCNH's newsletters a year or two ago where JA admitted that he will CAC a properly dipped coin with full mint luster. He also said that he prefers original coins and they will get the benefit of the doubt. If I did this correctly, it can be read here:
@topstuf said:
Why not just have CAC confiscate and destroy any non acceptable coins?
It would be enjoyable to go to a coin show and see a bourse full of nice, genuine, original, properly graded coins. Unfortunately, I don’t see that happening anytime soon. Thank you to the honest dealers that bust their rear and earn the respect of others and help to make coin collecting an enjoyable pastime. You know who you are. Shame on the dealers that knowingly sell phony toned or otherwise doctored coins in order to fill their pockets. You know who you are too!
No worries, I’ll just look past the weeds and find the flowers!
@spacehayduke said:
The conclusion that CAC prefers originality in many coins/slabs that get the sticker is not written down by them, but instead based on experience that many of us has had when submitting 100's of coins to them and I assume from conversations with JA by some. Do that (i.e. submit 100s of coins to them) and you will start to see what CAC prefers.
Then why do I see bright, dipped seated and barber coins with stickers or dipped/secondary toning on bust coinage with a green bean? Ditto for Morgans, but at least I understand that some blast white Morgans are undipped and were in the center of Mint bags.
I don't buy blast white coins too often so I can't answer your question. HST, it does not matter what anyone says here, you have seemed to clearly made up your mind that CAC can do no right. No worries, don't pay the premium for their opinion and buy what you like.
@spacehayduke said:
The conclusion that CAC prefers originality in many coins/slabs that get the sticker is not written down by them, but instead based on experience that many of us has had when submitting 100's of coins to them and I assume from conversations with JA by some. Do that (i.e. submit 100s of coins to them) and you will start to see what CAC prefers.
Then why do I see bright, dipped seated and barber coins with stickers or dipped/secondary toning on bust coinage with a green bean? Ditto for Morgans, but at least I understand that some blast white Morgans are undipped and were in the center of Mint bags.
I don't buy blast white coins too often so I can't answer your question. HST, it does not matter what anyone says here, you have seemed to clearly made up your mind that CAC can do no right. No worries, don't pay the premium for their opinion and buy what you like.
Best, SH
I am not anti-CAC. I'm merely making an observation. I've seen plenty of unoriginal coins with a bean that I don't care for. My point was that originality, in a strict sense, is not the end all be all for CAC.
@Coinstartled said:
And the super secret line of succession? Watching CAC coins being bid up to 20-30% premium over non anointed coins. JA retires and the whole game could go poof. Albanese has been elevated as the single best pair of eyes in the hobby, who can possible step in to replace him?
@ACop said:
I have a question that hasnt been answered.
If the TPGs cant grade coins inside of slabs, how can JA? Is he a wizard?
a coin can have the correct grade and not get a sticker. CAC stickers A and B coins. Also, CAC prefers originality. I honestly cant understand why this is difficult for people to comprehend
Aside from the post of the op, this is the best explanation in the entire mess of postings in this thread. Unfortunately some people don't get it even though it is explained in writing on CAC's website.
Do you really buy the splitting coin grades into thirds, schtick? Even worse as the hypnotists (I mean graders) will tell you that they are not split that way by percentages, significantly more coins in the C grade than A and B.
Let's add into the confusion that A coins and B coins get the same green sticker. I want an A coin. JA is this an A or a B??? How much more should an A coin be valued at over a B coin. Is JA saying As and Bs are the same??? Maybe someone will come along and sticker CACd coins to separate the As and Bs and FINALLY bring some clarity.
That's what plus grades are for. Now we just need the TPGs to add minus grades and we're good to go.
@Insider2 said: @Coinstartled said: " ...and how about JA creates his own forum or at least a managed Q&A platform instead of transmitting through mediums."
For what? The medium is the telephone. It has been around a long time. Give it a try.
Laura, TDN and now Wabbit have been the CU forum mouthpieces for CAC. Should I call JA each Sunday night as I consider bidding at Great Collections and inquire which coins have failed and which were never evaluated?
The winners are proudly displayed. The losers buried in a non public database.
Going back to this comment that prob got lost in the mayhem, I hear and know many put credence into this green bean and prefer coins CAC'd, I believe those that are truly fighting it might not have green slabs or coins that would pass the muster, hence all the nonsense and bad vibes at CAC. Originally years ago, I perceived this service as extra and excessive, however being the US market has evolved, and has born us too many doctors, fraudsters and coin shysters I have become very grateful for CAC. While not fool-proof I totally get why these are preferred, and attain stronger prices.
That said, I'm on hold 1 hour now on my rotary phone awaiting JA to get back to me re a few pcs at GC tonite. Last he mumbled to me was he's gotta get that wabbit off the phone first.
@Insider2 said: @Coinstartled said: " ...and how about JA creates his own forum or at least a managed Q&A platform instead of transmitting through mediums."
For what? The medium is the telephone. It has been around a long time. Give it a try.
Laura, TDN and now Wabbit have been the CU forum mouthpieces for CAC. Should I call JA each Sunday night as I consider bidding at Great Collections and inquire which coins have failed and which were never evaluated?
The winners are proudly displayed. The losers buried in a non public database.
Going back to this comment that prob got lost in the mayhem, I hear and know many put credence into this green bean and prefer coins CAC'd, I believe those that are truly fighting it might not have green slabs or coins that would pass the muster, hence all the nonsense and bad vibes at CAC. Originally years ago, I perceived this service as extra and excessive, however being the US market has evolved, and has born us too many doctors, fraudsters and coin shysters I have become very grateful for CAC. While not fool-proof I totally get why these are preferred, and attain stronger prices.
That said, I'm on hold 1 hour now on my rotary phone awaiting JA to get back to me re a few pcs at GC tonite. Last he mumbled to me was he's gotta get that wabbit off the phone first.
Marcmoish, many have been in the hobby/business longer than my 15 years, but this is my observation since 2003. In that time there has been a value adder, free (or close to free) money, if you will. Crackout resubmissions and TPG crosses made many submitters small fortunes with limited risk. As energy can neither be created or destroyed, neither can numismatic windfalls. For every Washington bumped from MS 66 to 67, a bit of air came out of populations. I sold a 1941-D in PCGS 67 several months ago for about $350. Same coin and grade was $2000 a dozen years ago.
I have no doubt that Mr. Albanese is a quality grader. From the edification, maybe the best in the business. I have been waiting a decade though for the other shoe to fall and for CAC to go full service as PCGS and NGC have. Not doing so has at the least splintered the coin community. Sure a $13 submission can yield a tremendous return, but the flip side is the fellows that are more transparent, and offer a full service, not just sinew and glue, carry an invisible scarlet letter. A question mark that cheapens the value of otherwise coins.
There is no such thing as one stop grading today for expensive coins. Send it to California and then to New Jersey. Coin has to move 6000 miles to become market acceptable.
Time for CAC to go all in with a full service facility or at least reveal the failed submissions on a public database so that the owners of non submitted coins will not be penalized.
Comments
The idea of A, B , and C coins is does not necessarily have to do with just splitting grades into thirds, it has to do with the overall grade and originality of the coin. Coins that typically get stickers are high end for the grade assigned on the holder and look original.
Things get wobbly here. Would a coin not deemed original still be considered to be safely but near the bottom of a given numeric grade?
Why does it get "wobbly"? If it does not look original and near the bottom of a given grade then it does not get stickered.
Yes I believe there are coins that are high end for their given grade and they supposedly get stickered.
So first, I'm not a CAC basher, so don't start with that. I get it that CAC stickers A coins, and B coins, but not C coins. I would venture to guess that everyone of us who is on this chat board is smart enough to be able to count up to C in the alphabet.
But I have to point out for you who "honestly can't understand" that "some people don't get it" " that it is "explained in writing" that CAC stickers A and B coins and prefers originality, that maybe that is not really that clear and perhaps there are a few questions that have never been addressed, and ask you to consider responding to them if you know the answers.
Please go to the website and show us all where it is explained in writing that CAC prefers originality. Please tell us how CAC defines originality. Please tell us how CAC factors originality into determining an A or B or C coin. Please show us in writing how CAC qualifies an A or B or C coin, beyond "solid for the grade" or "high-end". Please explain how CAC defines a solid for the grade coin, or a high end coin. Please show us any standards that CAC employs to determine a solid for the grade coin or a high end coin. Please enlighten these people who just don't get it. I think they would be thrilled if you could explain to them any CAC standards.
CAC will sticker dipped blast white coins all day long. I have a bunch. That is in fact the way they were made and looked when they left the mint.
Please be so kind as to present an example.
R U guys still at it? CAC me if you can ..... I am an NT
209 posts and the only conclusion we can agree on is...Heather Boyd is away on vacation.
Unsupervised time....let's PARTEY
I'll find some blast white ones when I have time. As far as I'm concerned, this thread has been very civil and very friendly! (And fun)
Yes and that is a record going into 6th page
Simply, the sticker means "I'd willingly buy it as a..." whatever grade it's currently slabbed as. And, as a corollary, advertise, Sell and deliver it at that grade with no qualms.
As a proprietor's opinion, it needs no written standards. Folks' attempts to parse all the nuances are appreciated, but beyond the already extensive content of the thread, probably futile.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
If I was CAC, i would give you a sticker, you're a gem.
Earlier in the thread it was noted that the buy price was at a sub wholesale level. Numbers are critical.
Without the responsibility to GUARANTEE grade, anyone can make any statements they pick out of a hat about what they'll pay for a coin.
CAC came about because people lie, lie and lie about the grade of a coin to maximize their profit. But if there are people who can give a more honest, clear explanation on the grade of a coin........the market becomes more stable, practicable and enduring. That's all I'm saying.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I apologize if I mislead about "originality " being listed in their requirements for a sticker, because no they do not actually say anything about it on their website. IMO "originality" is a part of a coins overall assigned grade. What makes a coin "original"? To me it depends on the coin. For example; a bright white proof seated half from 1868 is not original because IMO there is no way that it made it 150 years without some form of toning or the environment around it having some sort of effect on it. When it comes down to it coin grading has always been stated as subjective. Wouldn't all of these questions that you listed be answered better by CAC? Folks need to ask the right question to the right people. CAC states on their website how the coins get the sticker or not, plain and simple. I do not think that they need to explain grading.
Edited to add:
I am not going to say you are a CAC basher. If you like them or not, it does not matter to me. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
Let's add into the confusion that A coins and B coins get the same green sticker. I want an A coin. JA is this an A or a B??? How much more should an A coin be valued at over a B coin. Is JA saying As and Bs are the same??? Maybe someone will come along and sticker CACd coins to separate the As and Bs and FINALLY bring some clarity.
From the discussion, I'm assuming that A, B and C comprises the entire range of a grade, and that therefore CAC considers a stickered coin within the top 66% of the range.
That's a pretty broad range, but I guess it specifies the "solid for the grade" definition.
It also implies the C group as relatively weak for the grade (the lowest third), and possibly sliders. If people widely accept JA's opinion on such refinement, I can see why stickers significantly affect prices.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
It seems that most people are hung up on "added value" the CAC theory offers.
It does seem like buyers pay over price guide and at the upper levels for CAC. If the CAC coins stay in the buyer's collection longer, then in my opinion CAC is more of a benefit to the seller to maximize profit.
In old gold which is my thing...only about 10 to 20% of the total surviving populations are CAC....obviously this is different by type of coin...from the CAC web site:
"It will be influenced by how many coins in a specific grade are considered low quality. For example, an MS 65 1922 $20 Saint with a CAC sticker might have a large bid price premium over market-acceptable non-stickered examples, because perhaps only 20% of those submitted will meet or exceed CAC’s high quality standards. A 1923-D $20 Saint could be a very different story, because there are a fairly large number of nice quality 1923-D Saints in MS 65 holders that should qualify for a CAC sticker. As a result, they will almost certainly trade at a smaller premium over the market-acceptable non-stickered coins."
The conclusion that CAC prefers originality in many coins/slabs that get the sticker is not written down by them, but instead based on experience that many of us has had when submitting 100's of coins to them and I assume from conversations with JA by some. Do that (i.e. submit 100s of coins to them) and you will start to see what CAC prefers. Keep in mind what they call A and B coins is of course subjective and their preference. Not every one, even those with decades of experience, will always agree with the opinion of CAC. That is okay with me, but for an expensive coin, I want their opinion for sure. Keep in mind my experience is primarily with AU and lower grades and pre-1916 coins, I don't have experience with MS grades with them too much, so it could be dipped coins in MS grades are perfectly acceptable to them in certain circumstances.
If you buy a coin without a CAC sticker online without seeing in hand first, all I can say is beware because part of that 'originality' judgement by CAC is that they like coins that are not intentionally enhanced or altered. Many unbeaned coins have been messed with, which is why they don't bean. If that does not matter to the collector, then no worries buy the unbeaned coins at likely lower prices.
The issue of why JA does this service? Does he make money wholesaling CAC coins? Of course and that is why he beans, so he can buy beaned coins sight unseen and make a market in the coins he likes to sell. But the collateral to that is the benefit the collector gets from the service, if one does care about 'solid for the grade' and unmessed with surfaces, in the subjective way that CAC evaluates.
Many who know me can attest to the fact that I was a huge skeptic about CAC in the early years. But submitting 100s of coins to them won me over.
Best, SH
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
Is it likely that the older the coin, the fewer will CAC ? I say this without any research mainly because of how many old TPG graded coins have cabinet friction or some rub. I think this kind of market grading causes confusion and damage to my hobby.
What do you think crossovers are?
You are such an optimist.
CAC could clear up a lot of potential confusion with a simple website redesign or maybe even a new, enhanced FAQ page.
Then why do I see bright, dipped seated and barber coins with stickers or dipped/secondary toning on bust coinage with a green bean? Ditto for Morgans, but at least I understand that some blast white Morgans are undipped and were in the center of Mint bags.
I'd suggest that everyone who is having a problem understanding CAC read this interview with JA from the founding days back in 2008:
https://www.caccoin.com/cac-in-the-news/an-interview-with-john-albanese-by-maurice-rosen/
They don't get any more dipped blast white than these. There are plenty more.
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Warren Mills interviewed JA in one of RCNH's newsletters a year or two ago where JA admitted that he will CAC a properly dipped coin with full mint luster. He also said that he prefers original coins and they will get the benefit of the doubt. If I did this correctly, it can be read here:
https://rcnh.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=127:rcnh-monthly-newsletter-november-2016-issue&catid=15&Itemid=114
Why not just have CAC confiscate and destroy any non acceptable coins?
It would be enjoyable to go to a coin show and see a bourse full of nice, genuine, original, properly graded coins. Unfortunately, I don’t see that happening anytime soon. Thank you to the honest dealers that bust their rear and earn the respect of others and help to make coin collecting an enjoyable pastime. You know who you are. Shame on the dealers that knowingly sell phony toned or otherwise doctored coins in order to fill their pockets. You know who you are too!
No worries, I’ll just look past the weeds and find the flowers!
You mean "limited" crossovers.
Or JA could start a grading service, slab the coin at the grade that it would bean as and then sticker it.
I don't buy blast white coins too often so I can't answer your question. HST, it does not matter what anyone says here, you have seemed to clearly made up your mind that CAC can do no right. No worries, don't pay the premium for their opinion and buy what you like.
Best, SH
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
I am not anti-CAC. I'm merely making an observation. I've seen plenty of unoriginal coins with a bean that I don't care for. My point was that originality, in a strict sense, is not the end all be all for CAC.
Good God, Toppy.
ANA could sell confiscation insurance.
It would certainly cut down on submissions.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
And the size of some collections.
This thread goes much longer and Wabbit will have to do a prequel.
Insider, of course!
That's what plus grades are for. Now we just need the TPGs to add minus grades and we're good to go.
I only want ......CAC A .......coins.
Or start a sticker company.
i
Going back to this comment that prob got lost in the mayhem, I hear and know many put credence into this green bean and prefer coins CAC'd, I believe those that are truly fighting it might not have green slabs or coins that would pass the muster, hence all the nonsense and bad vibes at CAC. Originally years ago, I perceived this service as extra and excessive, however being the US market has evolved, and has born us too many doctors, fraudsters and coin shysters I have become very grateful for CAC. While not fool-proof I totally get why these are preferred, and attain stronger prices.
That said, I'm on hold 1 hour now on my rotary phone awaiting JA to get back to me re a few pcs at GC tonite. Last he mumbled to me was he's gotta get that wabbit off the phone first.
Marcmoish, many have been in the hobby/business longer than my 15 years, but this is my observation since 2003. In that time there has been a value adder, free (or close to free) money, if you will. Crackout resubmissions and TPG crosses made many submitters small fortunes with limited risk. As energy can neither be created or destroyed, neither can numismatic windfalls. For every Washington bumped from MS 66 to 67, a bit of air came out of populations. I sold a 1941-D in PCGS 67 several months ago for about $350. Same coin and grade was $2000 a dozen years ago.
I have no doubt that Mr. Albanese is a quality grader. From the edification, maybe the best in the business. I have been waiting a decade though for the other shoe to fall and for CAC to go full service as PCGS and NGC have. Not doing so has at the least splintered the coin community. Sure a $13 submission can yield a tremendous return, but the flip side is the fellows that are more transparent, and offer a full service, not just sinew and glue, carry an invisible scarlet letter. A question mark that cheapens the value of otherwise coins.
There is no such thing as one stop grading today for expensive coins. Send it to California and then to New Jersey. Coin has to move 6000 miles to become market acceptable.
Time for CAC to go all in with a full service facility or at least reveal the failed submissions on a public database so that the owners of non submitted coins will not be penalized.