@Insider2 said: @RYK said: "11 years later on, and this is still being debated?"
There is a very simple reason for this...folks like to blab, look knowledgeable, and join in the fun of posting often about things they know nothing about. Cannot be helped as this is a free forum and everyone should feel welcome and enjoy the fun of posting. When I joined my first coin forum three years ago, many posts started this way: "I DON"T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS BUT..." Thankfully, CU is a more mature forum.
There is a very simple solution to this situation...
Example: In eleven years, how many times has someone commented on/ asked about/rendered an opinion on the question of JA grading EVERY COIN that is stickered? ASK HIM, GET THE ANSWER (yes or no), POST IT, and it will be answered. I'd like to know.
Does PCGS do such and such? Call them and ask! Save us the misinformation, opinions, discussion and then let all of us know what you found out. I wish I could push the phone buttons for you guys !
While your flippancy is appreciated, rather than JA fielding a couple of dozen calls and the inquiring members posting all the responses here... CAC has a website and all the details of the meaning of the two beans can be laid out in a half dozen or fewer paragraphs. For some reason opacity is favored over transparency and a significant group of numismatists are still scratching their heads.
@Insider2 said: @RYK said: "11 years later on, and this is still being debated?"
There is a very simple reason for this...folks like to blab, look knowledgeable, and join in the fun of posting often about things they know nothing about. Cannot be helped as this is a free forum and everyone should feel welcome and enjoy the fun of posting. When I joined my first coin forum three years ago, many posts started this way: "I DON"T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS BUT..." Thankfully, CU is a more mature forum.
There is a very simple solution to this situation...
Example: In eleven years, how many times has someone commented on/ asked about/rendered an opinion on the question of JA grading EVERY COIN that is stickered? ASK HIM, GET THE ANSWER (yes or no), POST IT, and it will be answered. I'd like to know.
Does PCGS do such and such? Call them and ask! Save us the misinformation, opinions, discussion and then let all of us know what you found out. I wish I could push the phone buttons for you guys !
Chances are good that someone here knows and you'll usually get an answer faster by asking here? Maybe they need FAQ2 Frequently Answered Questions!
@Coinstartled said:
And the super secret line of succession? Watching CAC coins being bid up to 20-30% premium over non anointed coins. JA retires and the whole game could go poof. Albanese has been elevated as the single best pair of eyes in the hobby, who can possible step in to replace him> @cameonut2011 said:
@ACop said:
Almost forgot. John will buy any coin. Even if he doesnt want to. Of course it will be less than its worth. But he will buy it.
John will buy any CAC coin.
CAC doesn't bother with many series for good reason.
Nobody, but collectors pay what they are "worth" I've gotten better prices from John. Again, but He really is a bigger fish in the sea of buyers and tends to want to only buy Deep Pocket Coins. CAC provides a service a good one. Forget the pricing we are the ones who trade among one another creating a market.
@Coinstartled
--Why the hell doesn't he just offer full service grading without all the coding and mystery?
Maybe because we need another full service TPG as much as we need a hole drilled in our heads. CAC provides a unique service. It’s up to the collector how and when to use it.
@Coinstartled
--Why the hell doesn't he just offer full service grading without all the coding and mystery?
Maybe because we need another full service TPG as much as we need a hole drilled in our heads. CAC provides a unique service. It’s up to the collector how and when to use it.
I have not seen a consumer industry that was not improved by keen competition.
@Insider2 said: @RYK said: "11 years later on, and this is still being debated?"
There is a very simple reason for this...folks like to blab, look knowledgeable, and join in the fun of posting often about things they know nothing about. Cannot be helped as this is a free forum and everyone should feel welcome and enjoy the fun of posting. When I joined my first coin forum three years ago, many posts started this way: "I DON"T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS BUT..." Thankfully, CU is a more mature forum.
There is a very simple solution to this situation...
Example: In eleven years, how many times has someone commented on/ asked about/rendered an opinion on the question of JA grading EVERY COIN that is stickered? ASK HIM, GET THE ANSWER (yes or no), POST IT, and it will be answered. I'd like to know.
Does PCGS do such and such? Call them and ask! Save us the misinformation, opinions, discussion and then let all of us know what you found out. I wish I could push the phone buttons for you guys !
While your flippancy is appreciated, rather than JA fielding a couple of dozen calls and the inquiring members posting all the responses here... CAC has a website and all the details of the meaning of the two beans can be laid out in a half dozen or fewer paragraphs. For some reason opacity is favored over transparency and a significant group of numismatists are still scratching their heads.
Well, thanks for the non-effort. Just another perfect example of what I posted about. So I guess you found the answer to: Does JA examine EVERY coin sent to CAC on the website you mention.
Maybe you have more to say about "special" folks calling him to check if coins being auctioned were previously sent into CAC and rejected.
CAC was founded by leading members of the numismatic community, including John Albanese, a respected authority on coin grading and the rare coin market.
From the CAC website,
Who else in the industry was instrumental in founding CAC?
@Coinstartled said:
-My personal question that was answered and I found interesting: If a coin, for example, is MS67 Green CAC. You crack it out and it comes back MS66. It will not automatically get a Gold sticker. The coin would have to be the highest end of 67 or even a 68 to get the Gold. (This reaffirms my opinion on my personal Gold stickered coins. Most look 2 grades under)
--Why the hell doesn't he just offer full service grading without all the coding and mystery?
Guarantees and liabilities
You're only liable for guarantees if you give one. If I was running a TPG, I'd never guarantee a grade; only if it was authentic or not. Since opinions aren't facts, guaranteeing an opinion is silly. The only liability one should have is if they mishandle/damage/lose a customer's coin/s.
Without a guarantee, it would be hard to compete against PCGS and NGC.
just read a newsletter I subscribed to that had interviews with 5 or 6 experts (names everyone here would recognize and respect). Numerous topics were discussed but what stood out was each experts advice to buy CAC coins.
@Gazes said:
just read a newsletter I subscribed to that had interviews with 5 or 6 experts (names everyone here would recognize and respect). Numerous topics were discussed but what stood out was each experts advice to buy CAC coins.
That should do wonders for the coins without a sticker.
Did they emphasize the CAC assertion that the grades are in no way affected?
It seems that Wabbit’s discussion with JA cleared things up pretty nicely — but there are some hard-headed-don’t-change-my-mind folks around these here parts.
I for one always got annoyed when people insisted that it wouldn’t bean if he didn’t want to buy it — a notion that always struck me as a real service integrity buster.
@Gazes said:
just read a newsletter I subscribed to that had interviews with 5 or 6 experts (names everyone here would recognize and respect). Numerous topics were discussed but what stood out was each experts advice to buy CAC coins.
@Coinstartled said:
And a dozen years in...we are still deciphering what two stickers mean. When you get a coin back from PCGS you know what the grade or designation means.
I better pour a glass of eggnog.
You are still deciphering what two stickers mean.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
I liked his assertion that he just stickered the coin based on his assessment it was solid for grade, etc., not based on a specific economic consideration.
@Coinstartled said:
And a dozen years in...we are still deciphering what two stickers mean. When you get a coin back from PCGS you know what the grade or designation means.
I better pour a glass of eggnog.
You are still deciphering what two stickers mean.
If the forum was at consensus, these threads would not run to 200 posts.
@Gazes said:
just read a newsletter I subscribed to that had interviews with 5 or 6 experts (names everyone here would recognize and respect). Numerous topics were discussed but what stood out was each experts advice to buy CAC coins.
@Coinstartled said:
And a dozen years in...we are still deciphering what two stickers mean. When you get a coin back from PCGS you know what the grade or designation means.
I better pour a glass of eggnog.
You are still deciphering what two stickers mean.
If the forum was at consensus, these threads would not run to 200 posts.
Speak for yourself. Lot's of good info. Furthermore, If I ever ran a forum I'd edit out all the fluff. That would keep the page count lower.
@Coinstartled said:
And a dozen years in...we are still deciphering what two stickers mean. When you get a coin back from PCGS you know what the grade or designation means.
I better pour a glass of eggnog.
You are still deciphering what two stickers mean.
If the forum was at consensus, these threads would not run to 200 posts.
@Coinstartled said:
And a dozen years in...we are still deciphering what two stickers mean. When you get a coin back from PCGS you know what the grade or designation means.
I better pour a glass of eggnog.
You are still deciphering what two stickers mean.
If the forum was at consensus, these threads would not run to 200 posts.
Speak for yourself. Lot's of good info. Furthermore, If I ever ran a forum I'd edit out all the fluff. That would keep the page count lower.
So I am the only one here that does not accurately keep up with the CAC interpretations?
I'll ask the forum three questions that at least as recently as half a year ago I had gotten plausible answers to.
Does CAC consider the + when evaluating a coin with that designation?
Does CAC consider the Prooflike or DMPL designation when deciding to award a bean?
Does a failed submission mean that CAC does not consider the grade to be accurate?
I suspect that a few here do not know the correct answer to these questions.
I am not staunch CAC because I am a close friend of JA. I am in the middle of what is happening.
How would you like to look a major gold collection-have the buyers for most of it only to see its been messed with. One major dealer actually had the gaul to say "just pass on the bad coins". That was not a solution. CAC helped slow down and squeeze the bad guys. To this day I pitty the buyers from that sale.
Too many people here have chips on their shoulders or just want to make noise. I laugh when people claim to know what they have no clue on. Heck if may name dealers can't even grade, how ,any people here really know? CAC is the BEST insurance you can have when buying coins.
I see plus coins with green stickers sell for geometric premiums to similar CAC'd coins without a plus. That is good for the seller but may prove to be costly to the buyer.
Without the TPGS's very many "dealers" would have been weeded out FAST. Apparently, there is a need for CAC.
The only thing I would have done differently (in 1987 I was going to have a sticker service) is I would sticker every coin with an acceptable grade making all correctly graded MS-64's equal and letting the professionals who knew the difference between A,B, and C coins work out what they were worth.
Teaser. In 1987 at a Boston show a dealer had two gold pieces in his case graded by a top TPGS that were the nicest and highest grades I'd ever seen. Sheepishly, I asked to see them. BOTH WERE HEAVILY BUFFED! That gave me the idea to sticker coins that were actually Uncirculated (no matter MS-60 or higher) by the old standard we used at another TPGS - NO TRACE OF WEAR. I had self destruct stickers made with a tiny microscope and had the financial backing BUT I was hired by a TPGS before the company got off the ground. I suggested that my new employer have a gold label for these coins but it was considered a stupid proposition with good reason. If a company had a white label for the MS coins they graded what would a gold label reserved for the TRUE MS coins do to the value of the other typical MS coins with rub. Seems like a similar thing is occurring with the CAC stickers now!
@Insider2 said:
Without the TPGS's very many "dealers" would have been weeded out FAST. Apparently, there is a need for CAC.
That gave me the idea to sticker coins that were actually Uncirculated (no matter MS-60 or higher) by the old standard we used at another TPGS - NO TRACE OF WEAR. I had self destruct stickers made with a tiny microscope and had the financial backing BUT I was hired by a TPGS before the company got off the ground. I suggested that my new employer have a gold label for these coins but it was considered a stupid proposition with good reason. If a company had a white label for the MS coins they graded what would a gold label reserved for the TRUE MS coins do to the value of the other typical MS coins with rub. Seems like a similar thing is occurring with the CAC stickers now!
What is happening now is that coin buyers are suspicious of PCGS coins over say $500 (maybe less) that do not carry a CAC sticker. Even if the coin is all there, it is largely assumed that JA has taken a pass on the coin and future value would be limited.
I dunno, is that healthy for the numismatic community. The highest regarded grader/slabber has to be second guessed by a certainly competent but unique grader. And that is after three or four of the best at PCGS have rendered an opinion.
The one topic I don't recall ever seeing an answer to is regarding one man having so much influence.
I'm not arguing the positive impact of CAC at this moment in time.
CAC=JA. JA=CAC
I only hear of JA and one day he will sell or retire or be abducted by aliens and no longer steer the ship.
Apparently he is known and respected enough by most that matter but what happens when he is no longer at the helm? Will there be a new division line between pre-JA and post-JA?
There will be a census snapshot taken at that time.
Who is/are the heir(s) apparent?
I'm positive he has a uniquely trained team assembled that mirror his judgement.
Shouldn't they be be introduced to the public and become household names to ensure continuity?
There may be a plan in place that I haven't read about.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
What is happening now is that coin buyers are suspicious of PCGS coins over say $500 (maybe less) that do not carry a CAC sticker. Even if the coin is all there, it is largely assumed that JA has taken a pass on the coin and future value would be limited.
There's been plenty of comments here over the last few years to fully support that statement.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Were you not instrumental in launching CAC with at least a financial interest? **YES!!!!! **
I was hysterical about how much crap I had seen-especially in a multi million dollar gold set that mostly was doctored. I never invested in cac to make any money. I currently own NO CAC stock nor does Legend. It is fact at the time they were starting I made David Hall take a $500G 1794 $1 off the market.he loathed me then.....I was a lone wolf activist before JA listened to me and jumped in.
today this day, most dealers still hide and do nothing. And then there re the mules. I am greatful CAC exists to help those who do care.
If, as I believe, this results in an even wider belief that unbeaned coins are to be avoided, how will anyone find a market for them?
And how will that be good for the hobby?
Or is "hobby" in the crosshairs, too?
If the forum was at consensus, these threads would not run to 200 posts
the threads would be shorter if members who don't know what they're talking about would stop posting things as fact. read the OP, that's the premise here.
Comments
While your flippancy is appreciated, rather than JA fielding a couple of dozen calls and the inquiring members posting all the responses here... CAC has a website and all the details of the meaning of the two beans can be laid out in a half dozen or fewer paragraphs. For some reason opacity is favored over transparency and a significant group of numismatists are still scratching their heads.
Chances are good that someone here knows and you'll usually get an answer faster by asking here? Maybe they need FAQ2 Frequently Answered Questions!
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Time for another drink
Nobody, but collectors pay what they are "worth" I've gotten better prices from John. Again, but He really is a bigger fish in the sea of buyers and tends to want to only buy Deep Pocket Coins. CAC provides a service a good one. Forget the pricing we are the ones who trade among one another creating a market.
Maybe because we need another full service TPG as much as we need a hole drilled in our heads. CAC provides a unique service. It’s up to the collector how and when to use it.
I have not seen a consumer industry that was not improved by keen competition.
This particular thread was created specifically because of @RogerB outright lying about CAC Here:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1010016/crossover-epic-fail-0-for-3-high-end-coins#latest
Every single coin Asheland!
John also> @fiftysevener said:
He told everybody so, it has been on his website for many years. Some still refuse to believe that though, looking for secret messages and conjuring.
You are treading choppy water, Wabbit. At the least, find someone to loan you a surfboard.
Well, thanks for the non-effort.
Just another perfect example of what I posted about. So I guess you found the answer to: Does JA examine EVERY coin sent to CAC on the website you mention. 
Maybe you have more to say about "special" folks calling him to check if coins being auctioned were previously sent into CAC and rejected.
Stay tuned and the "speared bison" may come up again.......
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I might be able to add a fact finally...for sure I know that major credit cards don’t get stickers there
Mythology : it's all CAC to me.
ignore other series---does anyone believe that CAC does not provide a tremendous service for five figure gold coins?
For me CAC will play a role as long as the major grading services can't agree on a coin's grade.
Thanks for sharing that info, hopefully it will end speculation here.
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
THE CAC STICKER IS BACKED BY EXPERIENCE.
CAC was founded by leading members of the numismatic community, including John Albanese, a respected authority on coin grading and the rare coin market.
From the CAC website,
Who else in the industry was instrumental in founding CAC?
--Why the hell doesn't he just offer full service grading without all the coding and mystery?
Start a full grading service and invite the headaches that go along with that makes no sense.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Yes, the scholars can go back to deciphering the Talmud.
The CDN has added columns for CAC material in many areas and every new CDN monthly issue has newly expanded areas.
From this one can draw their own conclusions. I use this as guide in bidding on CAC material.
Without a guarantee, it would be hard to compete against PCGS and NGC.
You are treading choppy water, Wabbit. At the least, find someone to loan you a surfboard
why would Wabbit be at risk for telling the truth??
Vitriolic comments are dicey at best. Just don't want to see the herd get thinned any more.
I would be more worried about making stuff up about a reputable company than correcting the misinformation. I am not worried.
just read a newsletter I subscribed to that had interviews with 5 or 6 experts (names everyone here would recognize and respect). Numerous topics were discussed but what stood out was each experts advice to buy CAC coins.
That should do wonders for the coins without a sticker.
Did they emphasize the CAC assertion that the grades are in no way affected?
It seems that Wabbit’s discussion with JA cleared things up pretty nicely — but there are some hard-headed-don’t-change-my-mind folks around these here parts.
I for one always got annoyed when people insisted that it wouldn’t bean if he didn’t want to buy it — a notion that always struck me as a real service integrity buster.
Did they mention at what premium?
You are still deciphering what two stickers mean.
I liked his assertion that he just stickered the coin based on his assessment it was solid for grade, etc., not based on a specific economic consideration.
If the forum was at consensus, these threads would not run to 200 posts.
I'll try and elaborate over the weekend
Speak for yourself. Lot's of good info. Furthermore, If I ever ran a forum I'd edit out all the fluff. That would keep the page count lower.
+10
So I am the only one here that does not accurately keep up with the CAC interpretations?
I'll ask the forum three questions that at least as recently as half a year ago I had gotten plausible answers to.
Does CAC consider the + when evaluating a coin with that designation?
Does CAC consider the Prooflike or DMPL designation when deciding to award a bean?
Does a failed submission mean that CAC does not consider the grade to be accurate?
I suspect that a few here do not know the correct answer to these questions.
I am not staunch CAC because I am a close friend of JA. I am in the middle of what is happening.
How would you like to look a major gold collection-have the buyers for most of it only to see its been messed with. One major dealer actually had the gaul to say "just pass on the bad coins". That was not a solution. CAC helped slow down and squeeze the bad guys. To this day I pitty the buyers from that sale.
Too many people here have chips on their shoulders or just want to make noise. I laugh when people claim to know what they have no clue on. Heck if may name dealers can't even grade, how ,any people here really know? CAC is the BEST insurance you can have when buying coins.
Were you not instrumental in launching CAC with at least a financial interest?
@Coinstartled said: "So I am the only one here that does not accurately keep up with the CAC interpretations?
I don't know, do you? I sure don't know much about CAC and this is an informative
thread (minus the fluff).
I'll ask the forum three questions that at least as recently as half a year ago I had gotten plausible answers to.
Does CAC consider the + when evaluating a coin with that designation?
Does CAC consider the Prooflike or DMPL designation when deciding to award a bean?
Does a failed submission mean that CAC does not consider the grade to be accurate?
I suspect that a few here do not know the correct answer to these questions.
When you found out after you called JA, did you post the answers to these questions?
I see plus coins with green stickers sell for geometric premiums to similar CAC'd coins without a plus. That is good for the seller but may prove to be costly to the buyer.
Caveat Emptor.
Without the TPGS's very many "dealers" would have been weeded out FAST. Apparently, there is a need for CAC.
The only thing I would have done differently (in 1987 I was going to have a sticker service) is I would sticker every coin with an acceptable grade making all correctly graded MS-64's equal and letting the professionals who knew the difference between A,B, and C coins work out what they were worth.
Teaser. In 1987 at a Boston show a dealer had two gold pieces in his case graded by a top TPGS that were the nicest and highest grades I'd ever seen. Sheepishly, I asked to see them. BOTH WERE HEAVILY BUFFED! That gave me the idea to sticker coins that were actually Uncirculated (no matter MS-60 or higher) by the old standard we used at another TPGS - NO TRACE OF WEAR. I had self destruct stickers made with a tiny microscope and had the financial backing BUT I was hired by a TPGS before the company got off the ground. I suggested that my new employer have a gold label for these coins but it was considered a stupid proposition with good reason. If a company had a white label for the MS coins they graded what would a gold label reserved for the TRUE MS coins do to the value of the other typical MS coins with rub. Seems like a similar thing is occurring with the CAC stickers now!
Coercion
And
Compliance
What is happening now is that coin buyers are suspicious of PCGS coins over say $500 (maybe less) that do not carry a CAC sticker. Even if the coin is all there, it is largely assumed that JA has taken a pass on the coin and future value would be limited.
I dunno, is that healthy for the numismatic community. The highest regarded grader/slabber has to be second guessed by a certainly competent but unique grader. And that is after three or four of the best at PCGS have rendered an opinion.
The one topic I don't recall ever seeing an answer to is regarding one man having so much influence.
I'm not arguing the positive impact of CAC at this moment in time.
CAC=JA. JA=CAC
I only hear of JA and one day he will sell or retire or be abducted by aliens and no longer steer the ship.
Apparently he is known and respected enough by most that matter but what happens when he is no longer at the helm? Will there be a new division line between pre-JA and post-JA?
There will be a census snapshot taken at that time.
Who is/are the heir(s) apparent?
I'm positive he has a uniquely trained team assembled that mirror his judgement.
Shouldn't they be be introduced to the public and become household names to ensure continuity?
There may be a plan in place that I haven't read about.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
There's been plenty of comments here over the last few years to fully support that statement.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
coinstartled:
Were you not instrumental in launching CAC with at least a financial interest? **YES!!!!! **
I was hysterical about how much crap I had seen-especially in a multi million dollar gold set that mostly was doctored. I never invested in cac to make any money. I currently own NO CAC stock nor does Legend. It is fact at the time they were starting I made David Hall take a $500G 1794 $1 off the market.he loathed me then.....I was a lone wolf activist before JA listened to me and jumped in.
today this day, most dealers still hide and do nothing. And then there re the mules. I am greatful CAC exists to help those who do care.
If, as I believe, this results in an even wider belief that unbeaned coins are to be avoided, how will anyone find a market for them?
And how will that be good for the hobby?
Or is "hobby" in the crosshairs, too?
Hell, I have gotten 31 more disagrees from this thread and it isn't even an option anymore.
If the forum was at consensus, these threads would not run to 200 posts
the threads would be shorter if members who don't know what they're talking about would stop posting things as fact. read the OP, that's the premise here.