Has PCGS tightened its grading during the past few months?

I think so.
I'm just curious how they'll increase revenue if the submitters aren't winning.
Let's face it, main reason to submit coins and pay grading fees is to ultimately make a profit, especially if this is what you do to make a living.
HRH once posted years ago, "We try to grade the coins as high as possible."

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Comments

  • CCGGGCCGGG Posts: 773 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2018 6:09AM

    Maybe CAC is the cause, which is a good thing IMO.

  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 5,442 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Show us what you have submitted and the grades assigned to make this assumption.

  • specialistspecialist Posts: 936 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, PCGS has. Come to a show and watch the crack out genuises cry..too bad for them.

    I am grateful PCGS tightend up. I just hope it is not too little too late

  • jt88jt88 Posts: 1,224 ✭✭✭

    I think they should tighten their standards.

  • jt88jt88 Posts: 1,224 ✭✭✭

    The market and the collectors knows that and pay bid money for PCGS coins compare to NGC coins. Read my previous thread.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1005436/latest-example-of-huge-price-difference-between-pcgs-and-ngc-coin-in-auction

  • ModCrewmanModCrewman Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭✭

    In my collecting area 1950-1970 proofs, of the hundreds of coins I've submitted it has been a tightening over the past 18-24 months. IMO the tightening has gone beyond being accurate, both in terms of numeric grades and designations, based solely upon the grading standards that I learned in my experience submitting to them from 2011-2016.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 27,602 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ModCrewman said:
    In my collecting area 1950-1970 proofs, of the hundreds of coins I've submitted it has been a tightening over the past 18-24 months. IMO the tightening has gone beyond being accurate, both in terms of numeric grades and designations, based solely upon the grading standards that I learned in my experience submitting to them from 2011-2016.

    I have had only limited experience in your area, 1950 - 1970 Proof coins, but my observations from a five or six years ago was that the standard were pretty lose. I had to buy coins that graded at least Proof-67 or 68 to get the quality that I wanted. The Proof-65 coins were disappointing to me. Usually at 65 MS or PR is a really nice coin, but that was not my experience.

    At the beginning of the year, I dabbled with the idea of collecting the Proofs from 1936 to '42. I was pleasantly surprised to find coins in PR-64 holders that were perfectly acceptable. I had not seen that in the past.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible.
  • ashelandasheland Posts: 13,211 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I certainly hope so. I want solid coins for the grade when I am buying.

  • mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,697 ✭✭✭✭

    nope. Have seen many posts on various forums and also on IG recently of PCGS straight graded coins with obvious graffiti on them!!

    Successful Buying and Selling transactions with:

    Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
  • rickoricko Posts: 66,457 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway ...Yes you have...Cheers, RickO

  • ModCrewmanModCrewman Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones, I felt I had a pretty good feel for PCGS's standards until this recent period. Looking at some of my posts on the topic, maybe it only feels like it's been 18-24 months...but it has for sure been the last 12.

    From 1/5/2018 - https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/992529/conservative-times-in-the-grading-room#latest

    From 10/19/17 - https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/988714/thursday-morning-pop-quiz-find-the-cameo-grades-added-some-good-grades-with-images#latest

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 7,485 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jt88 said:
    The market and the collectors knows that and pay bid money for PCGS coins compare to NGC coins. Read my previous thread.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1005436/latest-example-of-huge-price-difference-between-pcgs-and-ngc-coin-in-auction

    Dear God, not this ridiculous comparison again. If anyone wants to the Executive summary: A FINEST KNOWN 64 sold for way more money than an ugly 62. :smiley:

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 7,485 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cupronik said:
    I think so.
    I'm just curious how they'll increase revenue if the submitters aren't winning.
    Let's face it, main reason to submit coins and pay grading fees is to ultimately make a profit, especially if this is what you do to make a living.
    HRH once posted years ago, "We try to grade the coins as high as possible."

    Yes, the key to making money in the coin market is to make sure all the coins you are selling are over-graded.

  • SmudgeSmudge Posts: 3,776 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would give a lot of weight to any coin that has run the GTG gauntlet here and done well. Maybe print it out when you try to sell the coin. Halfway kidding.

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As long as eye appeal figures into grading, there will never be uniform agreement or consistency. We can probably all do a better job of being consistent over time with improved published references, true. When objective "truth" is desired, the subjective nature of the hobby always gets in the way.

  • HallcoHallco Posts: 3,137 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Smudge said:
    I would give a lot of weight to any coin that has run the GTG gauntlet here and done well. Maybe print it out when you try to sell the coin. Halfway kidding.

    There are certain forum members(both present and from the past), that I think would do very well if they were hired as graders for tpgs!

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2018 10:14AM

    LOL. Certain forum members have been or currently are professional graders. :)

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 12,492 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well, it seems apparent that they are tightening nooses if nothing else.

  • SmudgeSmudge Posts: 3,776 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Hallco said:

    @Smudge said:
    I would give a lot of weight to any coin that has run the GTG gauntlet here and done well. Maybe print it out when you try to sell the coin. Halfway kidding.

    There are certain forum members(both present and from the past), that I think would do very well if they were hired as graders for tpgs!

    And do not give 58's a 62 because of "the market".

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 12,492 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CCGGG said:
    Maybe CAC is the cause, which is a good thing IMO.

    I would reassess that "good thing" mindset. IMO, CAC has done more to fragment and cast doubt on grading than anything in my recent (and not so recent) memory.

    The hobby is up against demographic effect, personal indebtedness effect, and massive social change away from anything related to interest in history.

    So you have a bean? WOW...SWELL
    .............oh....NO bean......
    keep moving.

  • mannie graymannie gray Posts: 4,667 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think they have tightened.
    This is only based on my recent submissions and my pre-grade estimates (which I keep on every coin).
    This is of course assuming that my internal standards are consistent, which I think is the case but may or may not actually be the truth.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,045 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said: "Although they may be grading more conservatively, what I would really like to see, is an established set of REAL STANDARDS. What we have now, are opinions, and as such, they are open to dispute and what has been termed as 'gradeflation'. Standards can, and should be, established and documented."

    Standards have always been documented. Hardly any big dealers followed them. Additionally, when your grading business depends on submissions the big submitters CAN possibly influence the grading.

    @Hallco said: "There are certain forum members (both present and from the past), that I think would do very well if they were hired as graders for tpgs!

    All you dreamers who wish you worked for a TPGS may not understand what you are wishing for. :p

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Standards certainly need to be tightened. I don't believe they have. It's all about the paper. $$$$.

  • SanctionIISanctionII Posts: 8,923 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Though the number of collectible coins in the world is quite large, there is a finite number of them. Only a percentage of these collectible coins will ever be graded by a TPG [some do not have a market value that justifies the expense of grading; some are owned by persons, companies or governments that will not submit them for grading; etc., etc.].

    Thus the pool of collectible coins that will actually be graded is limited. Multiple TPG companies have slabbed/graded coins. Many of these coins will never, ever, leave the slab that they are in. At some point in time the number of coins submitted for grading will decrease. To keep submissions up, new reasons to submit coins for grading must be created. These new reasons may have positive impact initially but will likely be short term.

    Once the hobby gets to the point where current business models do not work (i.e. generate adequate profits), the hobby/industry leaders will come up with something else in order to reinvent things.

    How long do you think it will be before the current 1-70 grading scale will be abandoned and replaced with the 1-100 scale? Or something else of similar magnitude comes about.

    Whoever can come up with a new concept that will work will be lauded and touted as a forward thinking genius.

    If grading standards are tightening, perhaps those who submit coins now (as opposed to times past when grading standards were loose) can document their holdings and when it comes time to sell same they can market their coins as ones that were "conservatively, aka under, graded in 2018" and thus much more desirable than coins slabbed in a looser era (i.e. 2014).

  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭✭

    I was very surprised by the apparent tightening my latest 2 submissions suffered.

    Prior to that They had gotten way too loose IMHO and this was a total about-face.

    But I cant rule out that these two submission I got hammered on may have been a quirks. Only time will tell.

    I would like to show some of them but they are currently in GC auctions, so it would be inappropriate.

  • au58au58 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭

    Yes.

  • au58au58 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭

    No.

  • Dave99BDave99B Posts: 6,086 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I doubt it.

    Dave

    Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
  • Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 10,464 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I hope so and I think it's a good thing !!! :)

    Timbuk3
  • DrewUDrewU Posts: 96 ✭✭✭

    From what I have seen, grading got ridiculously loose 2-3 years ago. I think the pendulum has swung dramatically in the other direction over the last year and a half to the point that grading is as much as two grades tighter than a few years back, and at least .5-1 grades tighter than the early days of the blue slab (say 2000-2005 for the sake of argument). I had a couple of recent submissions that had coins that were incredibly tightly graded by any PCGS historical standard. I also had a few coins upgrade that were solid for the grade with exceptional eye appeal.

    I’ve always liked the early OGH slabs with the yellowish insert since that seems to have been a particularly tight grading period for PCGS. Maybe the 85xx series of slabs will be a similar historical indicator of a tight grading period that astute future dealers and collectors will cherrypick for upgrades. Perhaps oscillating periods of tightness and looseness go beyond a response to market conditions and represent a fiduciary duty to maximize shareholder value by increasing submissions and resubmissions from a finite pool of rare coins. Certainly a tough balance to strike between maintaining a reputation as the premier coin grading service, keeping submitters relatively happy and representing the long term interests of shareholders.

  • DrewUDrewU Posts: 96 ✭✭✭

    @Georgiacop50 I’d love to know what undergraded coins you currently have up for auction at GC >:)

  • ZsmartieZsmartie Posts: 113 ✭✭✭

    What bothers me is the grading can change up or down based on the grading company changing "their" standards. The coin(s) have not changed, however, now the ultimate grade has. That can really affect the value of a coin and for me it affects whether I consider submitting a coin. Lately I have been comparing my MS65 Morgans OGH against listed for sale MS66 Morgans and have decided not to purchase the coins for upgrade. Instead I am satisfied with my existing coins and their grades. They are IMO upper level MS65 coins. So for me I have essentially quit purchasing Morgan dollars. I am happy with the collection I have and now just concentrating on my photography. So for now I really have no incentive to submit coins to PCGS for reconsideration nor purchase new coins at a higher grade.

  • ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 6,870 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes @Zsmartie exactly ...... you are caught holding the bag ;)

  • rln_14rln_14 Posts: 477 ✭✭✭

    I am sure I am quite naïve to think that a coin that graded ms65 in 1965 would be the same in 1975, 1985, 1995, 2005, 2015.....

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 26,639 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I can just see the memo: "Effective immediately, 1804 Silver Dollars will only be overgraded by 15 points, not 18! That is all!"
    o:)

    As they say in the wallpaper trade, "How's it hanging?"
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 5,740 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you are selling, it is not a good thing. The market is flooded with large groups of coins with the same label grade but graded using different standards. If your solid or high end coins are offered for sale, the junk pieces will have already muddled the auction records and price guides. CAC can only help but so much. Once you have already urinated in the pool, it is a little late - the water will remain tainted.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 5,740 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    Although they may be grading more conservatively, what I would really like to see, is an established set of REAL STANDARDS. What we have now, are opinions, and as such, they are open to dispute and what has been termed as 'gradeflation'. Standards can, and should be, established and documented. Cheers, RickO

    Real standards have existed for quite some time. Certain entities have chosen to ignore them for their own gain.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 5,740 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SanctionII said:
    Whoever can come up with a new concept that will work will be lauded and touted as a forward thinking genius.

    The entire business model was doomed to fail as their is a finite supply of revenue to be made. The solution would have been to have an expiration on the guarantee, which would force a resubmission to ensure that coins hadn't turned in the holders (yeah right) or for extra revenue. The coins could have been deactivated from registry sets/cert verification tools after that time. It is too late to save it unless the company bails on the 70 point scale all together.

  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 3,727 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Gee hope not. Don’t c any reason why they should.

    Creekside Tangible Assets - US & World Coins & Currency
  • MoldnutMoldnut Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭✭

    Can someone please have our host tell us they "changed" their standards :#

    Derek

    EAC 6024
  • RittenhouseRittenhouse Posts: 561 ✭✭✭

    @SanctionII said:
    How long do you think it will be before the current 1-70 grading scale will be abandoned and replaced with the 1-100 scale? Or something else of similar magnitude comes about.

    You mean like the announcement of the new Expert Numismatic Services, Inc using Ron Guth's 100 point scale which appeared in the numismatic press a day or two before your post? Google "ron guth 100 point grading scale". Articles in Numismatic News, Coin Week, Coin News Net, Coin Zip, etc.

  • SanctionIISanctionII Posts: 8,923 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Rittenhouse.

    So the changeover is already underway. Do you think ENS, Inc using a 100 point scale is the first of many dominos to fall? Or is it an anomaly?

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,483 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think that most swings in grading standards are short term, random and unintended. It’s just a function of an imperfect system.

    That said, pcgs and NGC both seem tighter at the moment. Enough so that I’m cutting back on my raw coin purchases and submissions.

    A lot of collectors think that’s great because now they’ll get to buy 65’s in 64 holders and at 64 prices. Maybe logical, but completely wrong. Coins just go into hiding until they’re graded to market “standards”.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image
  • RegulatedRegulated Posts: 2,982 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I haven't been submitting if I can help it lately, and I know a dealer who has been 100% PCGS for years who told me last week that he's switched to NGC because of the consistently low grades that he's been receiving - and he's not a typical whinging coin dealer.

    David McCarthy - Kagin's - IG: X_COINNERD_X

    What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 5,740 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:
    **That said, pcgs and NGC both seem tighter at the moment. Enough so that I’m cutting back on my raw coin purchases and submissions. **

    A lot of collectors think that’s great because now they’ll get to buy 65’s in 64 holders and at 64 prices. Maybe logical, but completely wrong. Coins just go into hiding until they’re graded to market “standards”.

    I suspect that there are many others like you. I haven't submitted in six months. The services will realize that this over correction is hurting their bottom line, and they will loosen back up in the not too distant future.

    I also agree that this is bad for most collectors (good super PQ coins will go in hiding as you suggest) and for dealers.

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