These people are some of the last remaining professional Hustlers. Now we still have carnivals going around hustling people, but not like the old days. The days of the pool hustler are not at all like they used to be. The vest-pocket salesmen are not hustling like they did in ages past.
But these motel buyers are in full force! Hustling the public for a living. And the public loves them!
<< <i>So how much "cash" can a business person handle without triggering any kind of reporting requirements? Many transactions can be arranged for cash if one wants to "follow the rules". >>
As someone here said awhile back. If you do offer someone a fair price for a $10K coin they get gunshy because they figure it's worth even more and you still can't close the deal.
<< <i>As someone here said awhile back. If you do offer someone a fair price for a $10K coin they get gunshy because they figure it's worth even more and you still can't close the deal. >>
Those damn hotel buyers have been trolling our metro area for months now. Week after week after week I see those mega-ads in multiple papers. In turns my stomach every time I see them. The fact is, I'm also a buyer and vest pocket dealer (not lately though). I always pay fair and I'm very upfront with my customers. These hotel buyers are schemers and rip-off artists as far as I'm concerned. But they have plent of willing guppies to sell to them. Very, very sad.
Some have suggested having a paid agent of yours carrying some advertising. You can also hand out flyers. But no doubt the hotel will pick up on this quick enough since the scammers are their paying customers and you aren't. And it's unlikely you'll get more than one chance to have an adjoining room to the hotel buyers once they complain to management. I'd say do all the dirty tricks and schemes you can legally do to divert away customers. Most states require permits, registering with local police, not paying in cash, and keeping items for up to 30 days for perusal by local police in the event items might be stolen.
I'd consider the days the hotel buyers being in town as prime double duty work days for coin shop owners. Have plenty of business cards to be handed out to those attending the hotel. Ensure the cards have your available phone number for an instant price comparision. And I like the idea of friends or relatives wearing shirts with your basic buy prices (ie paying 22X face for 90% silver coins, paying $1600 for 1 oz bullion gold coins). Or it can be as simple as "guaranteed to beat the buy price of any hotel buyer, or lunch is on me!" Yeah, you might have to spring for a couple of meals but it would be worth it. You might even offer to pay finder's fees. Ensure that the T-shirts are kept covered until well into a line. And then recovered if snoopers come around. The possibilities are endless. Can't hurt to try it at least once. You could even walk in with a bucket full of silver dollars, etc. and come screaming out of there on how little you were offered. Then mention that Jim Dimmick down at the local store is paying 30% more!
These guys are definitely thieves to be sure... but that said, perhaps I am in the minority but I look at these guys as doing us a favor of sorts. For example, one group sets up at a hotel right in back of us....They put in full page ads for a week and it gets people thinking about their coins...unfortunately these guys do buy some things from the unknowledgeable...that's the sad part. But- we invariably get phone calls and end up buying deals from those who are savvy enough to shop around and bring their stuff to us for a second offer, or we just buy things from people who come in directly...some see the address of the hotel and assume it's us doing the ads. Others are simply reminded by the ads and were meaning to take them to a local dealer so it spurs them to do so. At any rate, we end up buying deals. It's like getting a few thou in free advertising.
<< <i>I get it, competition kills free markets. Do what you need to do to make your business work, spend your energy and time doing positive things for you, not whining about what the other guy does. Pay someone to hold a sign up saying you pay more,or whatever to get the message out that it would be better for people to deal with you. I am not trying to be harsh, but calling people uneducated and such is an eliteist attitude. In my field(HVAC contracting), people said the same things when public utilities got into the installation end of the business. Alot of complaining and crying foul was done by many contactors, while I stuck to my business plan, focused on my business,built my reputation and I am still here, while alot of my competition just withered away. There were many times that I just wanted to pack it in. >>
The buyers that they are calling uneducated are not coin people. I think he means uneducated in the numismatic sense. They are instructed to pay a certain price for gold and silver. They do not buy by numismatic value - only bullion value. They are everywhere. There is no legal requirement(at least in Pa.) to be a gold and silver buyer-everyone qualifies. It happened during the silver rush of 1980 also. When the price of gold and silver went down they disappeared. They will remain as long as there is a lot of money to be made. There is a stigma that coin dealers are rip- off artists in some people's minds. For some reason they think that the hotel buyers are more trustworthy. I don't know why. Their ads are tricky - They list the current bullion value as say $1650 per ounce or "gold is at it's highest value ever"- best time to sell is now!! - however they do not tell you that they are not paying you anywhere near that amount. Not many jewelry sellers bother to figure out the actual gold bullion value of their jewelry before they sell. You have to figure out the purity then the weight by troy or pennyweight and then do some math calculations to get the actual gold value and then discount a few dollars for the dealers profit to determine what you should get.--Now what seller goes through all that? Virtually no one. People with scrap jewelry to sell -just sell it if the price seems right even though it may not be.
These hotel buyers have a LOT of expenses and overhead -- lots of advertising, renting hotel conference rooms, travel, etc. I don't know how profitable they are, but it's probably a lot less than you would think. With all the "cash for gold" places and the high gold/silver prices the last five years, and with a tough economy and high gas prices to boot, my guess is that most people have already been "cleaned out" of whatever unwanted gold, coins, etc. may have been laying around.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
You could try an ad like--"Go to the hotel buyers first and get their best offer- Then come to us for a better offer. We were here long before they arrived and will be here long after they depart."
I have before paid a few people to hand out b-cards , flyers etc in the parking lot, but as soon as they(hotel buyers) get wind of it, they run them off (which from there perspective I can understand)
as far as having the newspaper do a story on them (the true story) they dont, becuase they are not going to potentially ruin a cash cow from big paid advertisers. Not only that, when i have tried to run a competing add at the same time, they bury it several sections back in the paper.
As far as I know, most pay out large amounts in check from, but I have herd of cash transactions in some instances, they probably wont let someone go away if they demanded cash. (But to further comment on the situation that I had where a guy wanted all cash to do business with no transaction record.) If the hotel buyers did pay in cash, they still have the sellers information on record when they sell as required when they come in. I turned down the opp to buy that 500+ oz in cash with no trail becuase paying out 16k in cash with no paper trail , first ismostly illegal, secondly the risk is not worth a 500.00 profit in this scenario.
We will hang on, we started getting a few of our regular customers who know about how they operate come in an sell us late this week. Honestly , it only takes one good day out of the week , to make the week worth while, we had that yesterday. I am a single person operation other than security guy, so I dont have a lot of overhead costs. I did trim down the hours during the week to the most active time when folks come in to sell.
I have before paid a few people to hand out b-cards , flyers etc in the parking lot, but as soon as they(hotel buyers) get wind of it, they run them off (which from there perspective I can understand)
as far as having the newspaper do a story on them (the true story) they dont, becuase they are not going to potentially ruin a cash cow from big paid advertisers. Not only that, when i have tried to run a competing add at the same time, they bury it several sections back in the paper.
As far as I know, most pay out large amounts in check from, but I have herd of cash transactions in some instances, they probably wont let someone go away if they demanded cash. (But to further comment on the situation that I had where a guy wanted all cash to do business with no transaction record.) If the hotel buyers did pay in cash, they still have the sellers information on record when they sell as required when they come in. I turned down the opp to buy that 500+ oz in cash with no trail becuase paying out 16k in cash with no paper trail , first ismostly illegal, secondly the risk is not worth a 500.00 profit in this scenario.
We will hang on, we started getting a few of our regular customers who know about how they operate come in an sell us late this week. Honestly , it only takes one good day out of the week , to make the week worth while, we had that yesterday. I am a single person operation other than security guy, so I dont have a lot of overhead costs. I did trim down the hours during the week to the most active time when folks come in to sell. >>
Why don't you park across the street with a banner saying "we buy gold, silver and coins"? They can't run you off of a public street.
I was on our local TV on Thursday and I made it a point to tell people to not sell to the transient hotel buyers. I told the audience that we give free appraisals and they should know what the value of their coins are before selling anywhere.
It does not help when some stupid newspaper reporter seems like he’s working hand and glove with them.
A few months ago a Sarasota, Florida newspaper ran an article about where a motel buyer paid a woman $4,000 for a Fugio cent. They had a big picture of the piece, and it only graded VF or so with a tail wind. It was not a rare variety from what I could see. The only thing I could figure was that this was plant to draw the lemmings to the motel to “strike it rich.” The story about the hotel buyer paying $4 grand for that coin was either bogus or the hotel buyer got snookered.
Which one do you think is more likely?
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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$7 bucks for 90% dollars (avg. circ), $15 for unc's is all I needed to hear. This was a few weeks ago, the guy was serious, I couldn't believe it. Guess thier operating costs are sky high.
EDIT: Curious if these guys encounter any key dates? Imagine the rush of purchasing a 92S in AU condition for $7 bucks. Or better yet a 93S in MS for $15 bucks. The heart rate must increase dramatically, if the above coins were purchase for $22. How do you stop from being giddy with joy?
The motel buyers are absolutley killing us business wise. >>
How large are your ads vs. how large are their ads ? >>
Any idea how much newspapaper ads cost? When they are trying to fill space you can sometimes get a reasonable rate but at regular rates they can be very expensive. I was considering running ads when the hotel buyers were in town. I had a contract rate and I called to get a rate for a half page ad on a Sunday and a full page ad on a Friday. Total quoted: $13,000. I passed.
Some weeks here in Portland Oregon, we have two competing motel buyers placing full page ads in our local Oregonian newspaper. Blows my mind why people seem to trust these guys more than local coin shop owners.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
Full page add when they have a special is about 1k to 1500, problem is they only have those specials every so often, and they have to be booked in advance sometimes 4-6 weeks ahead to get that rate.
On a normal day, the add for a full page color is 8,000 per day, sunday is even more.
<< <i>Full page add when they have a special is about 1k to 1500, problem is they only have those specials every so often, and they have to be booked in advance sometimes 4-6 weeks ahead to get that rate.
On a normal day, the add for a full page color is 8,000 per day, sunday is even more. >>
I wouldn't pay that rate, newspapers are obsolete, unfortunately.
<< <i>I wouldn't pay that rate, newspapers are obsolete, unfortunately. >>
If the anecdotes here are true, and the people putting out these ads are "killing" others looking to buy inventory with a different (and likely more ethical) business model, then perhaps they aren't as obsolete as we think. Keep in mind that a lot of the folks with old coin collections are elderly, who probably had them passed down for generations or who built them as a kid, and these people are more likely to still read newspapers and less likely to rely on the Internet for information and advertising.
Comments
But these motel buyers are in full force! Hustling the public for a living. And the public loves them!
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>
<< <i>So how much "cash" can a business person handle without triggering any kind of reporting requirements? Many transactions can be arranged for cash if one wants to "follow the rules". >>
Read up on the Bank Secrecy Act.
Cheers,
Bob >>
If I got lucky thru fortuitous/legal means like a large casino or lottery jackpot, I'd have no qualms about withdrawing large amounts of cash.
<< <i>As someone here said awhile back. If you do offer someone a fair price for a $10K coin they get gunshy because they figure it's worth even more and you still can't close the deal. >>
Yep +1
<< <i>I hate these dogs.....Low life rip off scum bags....Joe >>
+1.........and no conscience.
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
enough since the scammers are their paying customers and you aren't. And it's unlikely you'll get more than one chance to have an adjoining room to the hotel
buyers once they complain to management. I'd say do all the dirty tricks and schemes you can legally do to divert away customers. Most states require permits,
registering with local police, not paying in cash, and keeping items for up to 30 days for perusal by local police in the event items might be stolen.
I'd consider the days the hotel buyers being in town as prime double duty work days for coin shop owners. Have plenty of business cards to be handed out to those
attending the hotel. Ensure the cards have your available phone number for an instant price comparision. And I like the idea of friends or relatives wearing shirts
with your basic buy prices (ie paying 22X face for 90% silver coins, paying $1600 for 1 oz bullion gold coins). Or it can be as simple as "guaranteed to beat the buy
price of any hotel buyer, or lunch is on me!" Yeah, you might have to spring for a couple of meals but it would be worth it. You might even offer to pay finder's fees.
Ensure that the T-shirts are kept covered until well into a line. And then recovered if snoopers come around. The possibilities are endless. Can't hurt to try it at least once.
You could even walk in with a bucket full of silver dollars, etc. and come screaming out of there on how little you were offered. Then mention that Jim Dimmick down at the
local store is paying 30% more!
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>I get it, competition kills free markets. Do what you need to do to make your business work, spend your energy and time doing positive things for you, not whining about what the other guy does. Pay someone to hold a sign up saying you pay more,or whatever to get the message out that it would be better for people to deal with you. I am not trying to be harsh, but calling people uneducated and such is an eliteist attitude. In my field(HVAC contracting), people said the same things when public utilities got into the installation end of the business. Alot of complaining and crying foul was done by many contactors, while I stuck to my business plan, focused on my business,built my reputation and I am still here, while alot of my competition just withered away. There were many times that I just wanted to pack it in. >>
The buyers that they are calling uneducated are not coin people. I think he means uneducated in the numismatic sense. They are instructed to pay a certain price for gold and silver. They do not buy by numismatic value - only bullion value. They are everywhere. There is no legal requirement(at least in Pa.) to be a gold and silver buyer-everyone qualifies. It happened during the silver rush of 1980 also. When the price of gold and silver went down they disappeared. They will remain as long as there is a lot of money to be made.
There is a stigma that coin dealers are rip- off artists in some people's minds. For some reason they think that the hotel buyers are more trustworthy. I don't know why. Their ads are tricky - They list the current bullion value as say $1650 per ounce or "gold is at it's highest value ever"- best time to sell is now!! - however they do not tell you that they are not paying you anywhere near that amount.
Not many jewelry sellers bother to figure out the actual gold bullion value of their jewelry before they sell. You have to figure out the purity then the weight by troy or pennyweight and then do some math calculations to get the actual gold value and then discount a few dollars for the dealers profit to determine what you should get.--Now what seller goes through all that? Virtually no one. People with scrap jewelry to sell -just sell it if the price seems right even though it may not be.
Bob
I wrote in a thread in the PM forum that this could be a common occurance in the next year or so.
My buddy who has a B&M and like you makes most of his nut on scrap say business is down 30% YoY.
But if you can stay with it, or even want to, I think you'll find the hotel buyers will be slowing down as well.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Bob
<< <i>They're banned here in california. >>
Say what? They have 2-3 full page ads in virtually every issue of the San Jose Mercury News.
Lance.
I have before paid a few people to hand out b-cards , flyers etc in the parking lot, but as soon as they(hotel buyers) get wind of it, they run them off (which from there perspective I can understand)
as far as having the newspaper do a story on them (the true story) they dont, becuase they are not going to potentially ruin a cash cow from big paid advertisers. Not only that, when i have tried to run a competing add at the same time, they bury it several sections back in the paper.
As far as I know, most pay out large amounts in check from, but I have herd of cash transactions in some instances, they probably wont let someone go away if they demanded cash. (But to further comment on the situation that I had where a guy wanted all cash to do business with no transaction record.) If the hotel buyers did pay in cash, they still have the sellers information on record when they sell as required when they come in. I turned down the opp to buy that 500+ oz in cash with no trail becuase paying out 16k in cash with no paper trail , first ismostly illegal, secondly the risk is not worth a 500.00 profit in this scenario.
We will hang on, we started getting a few of our regular customers who know about how they operate come in an sell us late this week. Honestly , it only takes one good day out of the week , to make the week worth while, we had that yesterday. I am a single person operation other than security guy, so I dont have a lot of overhead costs. I did trim down the hours during the week to the most active time when folks come in to sell.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>to comment on a few comments from above :
I have before paid a few people to hand out b-cards , flyers etc in the parking lot, but as soon as they(hotel buyers) get wind of it, they run them off (which from there perspective I can understand)
as far as having the newspaper do a story on them (the true story) they dont, becuase they are not going to potentially ruin a cash cow from big paid advertisers. Not only that, when i have tried to run a competing add at the same time, they bury it several sections back in the paper.
As far as I know, most pay out large amounts in check from, but I have herd of cash transactions in some instances, they probably wont let someone go away if they demanded cash. (But to further comment on the situation that I had where a guy wanted all cash to do business with no transaction record.) If the hotel buyers did pay in cash, they still have the sellers information on record when they sell as required when they come in. I turned down the opp to buy that 500+ oz in cash with no trail becuase paying out 16k in cash with no paper trail , first ismostly illegal, secondly the risk is not worth a 500.00 profit in this scenario.
We will hang on, we started getting a few of our regular customers who know about how they operate come in an sell us late this week. Honestly , it only takes one good day out of the week , to make the week worth while, we had that yesterday. I am a single person operation other than security guy, so I dont have a lot of overhead costs. I did trim down the hours during the week to the most active time when folks come in to sell. >>
Why don't you park across the street with a banner saying "we buy gold, silver and coins"? They can't run you off of a public street.
A few months ago a Sarasota, Florida newspaper ran an article about where a motel buyer paid a woman $4,000 for a Fugio cent. They had a big picture of the piece, and it only graded VF or so with a tail wind. It was not a rare variety from what I could see. The only thing I could figure was that this was plant to draw the lemmings to the motel to “strike it rich.” The story about the hotel buyer paying $4 grand for that coin was either bogus or the hotel buyer got snookered.
Which one do you think is more likely?
Straight hair can be made to wave beautifully by using
Ivins' Patent Hair Crimpers.
Ladies can use them constantly and have no fear of injuring their hair, as they are always used without heating at all, and consequently do not destroy the vitality of the hair. Their construction is so simple, they are so easily used, and their powers so magical, that we are convinced that any lady, after once using them, will not be without them for double the price of their cost. Inquire for Ivins' Patent Hair Crimpers, and use no other, if you wish to preserve the life and beauty of your hair. For sale everywhere. Manufactured and sold wholesale only by the patentee,
E. IVINS, Sixth and Columbia Avenue, Philadelphia.
This was a few weeks ago, the guy was serious, I couldn't believe it.
Guess thier operating costs are sky high.
EDIT: Curious if these guys encounter any key dates?
Imagine the rush of purchasing a 92S in AU condition for $7 bucks.
Or better yet a 93S in MS for $15 bucks.
The heart rate must increase dramatically, if the above coins were purchase for $22.
How do you stop from being giddy with joy?
<< <i>Just a note:
The motel buyers are absolutley killing us business wise. >>
How large are your ads vs. how large are their ads ?
<< <i>
<< <i>Just a note:
The motel buyers are absolutley killing us business wise. >>
How large are your ads vs. how large are their ads ? >>
Any idea how much newspapaper ads cost? When they are trying to fill space you can sometimes get a reasonable rate but at regular rates they can be very expensive. I was considering running ads when the hotel buyers were in town. I had a contract rate and I called to get a rate for a half page ad on a Sunday and a full page ad on a Friday. Total quoted: $13,000. I passed.
Jade Rare Coin eBay Listings
On a normal day, the add for a full page color is 8,000 per day, sunday is even more.
<< <i>Full page add when they have a special is about 1k to 1500, problem is they only have those specials every so often, and they have to be booked in advance sometimes 4-6 weeks ahead to get that rate.
On a normal day, the add for a full page color is 8,000 per day, sunday is even more. >>
I wouldn't pay that rate, newspapers are obsolete, unfortunately.
<< <i>I wouldn't pay that rate, newspapers are obsolete, unfortunately. >>
If the anecdotes here are true, and the people putting out these ads are "killing" others looking to buy inventory with a different (and likely more ethical) business model, then perhaps they aren't as obsolete as we think. Keep in mind that a lot of the folks with old coin collections are elderly, who probably had them passed down for generations or who built them as a kid, and these people are more likely to still read newspapers and less likely to rely on the Internet for information and advertising.
The buyers are in a hotel. A 'secure' and heavily-traveled spot. Not a small shop that may or may not be comfortable or inviting.
The buyers create an "event", a reason to get well-dressed, leave home and visit an advertised stranger that is buying their items.
The sellers may be embarrased or unsure of the idea of selling and therefore they choose a setting where they are less likely to be known.
In my city, one large pawn shop makes approx. $100,000 a month alone in buying PM's at 30% below spot becasue they advertise, heavily.
This pawn shop has a face; an inviting, secure feeling, heavily traveled face. Albeit, the seller may be recognized, but the ark is built.