Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Ginger Vs Mary Anne is the ultimate debate. MJ >>
Not really. Gotta think long term. Ginger is more exciting, and more dangerous (high maintenance); long term, the excitement abates once the wrinkles set in. MA, on the other hand, is somewhat boring short term, probably low maintenance, and likely safer long term. Kinda like looking at a wildly toned coin---is everything real, will the color rinse off with acetone, and might it morph into a dog in a couple of decades?
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
<< <i>Ginger Vs Mary Anne is the ultimate debate. MJ >>
No debate their MJ.....it's Mary Anne all the way! Ginger was just too much work. Maybe I was too drawn to all the farmer's daughters of the 60's and 70's: Mary Anne, Elly May, the Petticoat Junction gals, and even Eva on Green Acres...lol. I think even Raquel in 1 MILL yrs BC fish farmed when she wasn't trying to keep her "outfit" on.
And to keep this topical which of the Gilligan's Island characters collected coins?
<< <i>I also like coins to retain their value. If I like another coin better, I would rather not take a beating getting out of one coin and into the other. >>
I think we all agree with this....difference is, and correct me if I am wrong, you go in on a coin purchase with an eye to the grade/value and whether you agree or not. You compare with what you think the resell would be (gradewise) and what an up/down difference is for the coin.
You don't go into a coin saying "well, the label says MS65, so I will treat it as a MS65 all day long by any and all grading services"......, right?
<< <i>Ginger Vs Mary Anne is the ultimate debate. MJ >>
No debate their MJ.....it's Mary Anne all the way! Ginger was just too much work. >>
>>
You guys are forgetting Mrs. Howell ("Lovely"). Sure, she was married back in the day but you know she's a divorcee now and took half of Mr. Howell's stuff. More cash to buy coins with. (PCGS, of course, never would waste Mr. Howell's money on NGC...)
<< <i>Ginger Vs Mary Anne is the ultimate debate. MJ >>
Not really. Gotta think long term. Ginger is more exciting, and more dangerous (high maintenance); long term, the excitement abates once the wrinkles set in. MA, on the other hand, is somewhat boring short term, probably low maintenance, and likely safer long term. Kinda like looking at a wildly toned coin---is everything real, will the color rinse off with acetone, and might it morph into a dog in a couple of decades? >>
<< <i>Ginger Vs Mary Anne is the ultimate debate. MJ >>
No debate their MJ.....it's Mary Anne all the way! Ginger was just too much work. >>
jump ahead today, I second that, have you seen what ginger looks like.............ouch.......maryanne may look like a cute ole grandma that bakes cookies but ginger looks like one of those over the hill made up saggy hollywood flusies that had too much plastic surgery and hair dye and could star in hush hush sweet charlotte a la 2012 and that ain't a pretty sight I am trying to paint...speaking of paint. >>
This thread would be much enriched with pics. Then and now. Oh, and it's Mary Anne by a country mile.
<< <i>Here are a few examples of crosses I have had:
1837 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS XF45 1857 Flying Eagle Cent NGC AU58 to PCGS XF45 1836 Bust Half NGC AU58 to PCGS AU53 1835 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS AU50 Bust dime from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45 1832 Bust Half from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45 The list goes on....
Out of all of my crossover submissions, I have had exactly 3 that upgraded. >>
With all due respect, this doesn't mean anything with respect to the ability of either PCGS or NGC to grade. On any or all of the coins, the following could be true:
1- PCGS undergraded them 2- NGC overgraded them 3- PCGS undergraded them and NGC overgraded them 4- PCGS was right 5- NGC was right
An elementary understanding of statistics and the coin market can easily show how anyone can skew these results. If the coins were sold in the NGC holders at the price consistent with the same grade at PCGS, then you overpaid. If they were sold at the same price as the PCGS grade, then you paid the right price. That scale is simply set on who is the baseline. If we call NGC the baseline, then the reverse is true. There are plenty of reasons why you, or anyone else, could end up with numerous coins that would not cross from NGC to PCGS:
1- In this day and age where everyone wants the best score, you paid too much for the coin. You convinced yourself that you were getting a PCGS [grade X] in an NGC [grade X] holder. 2- When an NGC coin is set to PCGS as a crossover, PCGS wants to show that they're stricter, so they grade the coin lower. Human nature dictates the graders do this, even if they try not to. If you want to be better than your competitor, there's no easier way than, when given the opportunity to say flat out, "our competitor has lower standards," you take it. 3- You're unlucky
But I doubt it's just #3. My collection has a large number of NGC coins, because I've found coins I like in NGC holders and saw no reason to cross them. I spent a lot of time looking for very high quality examples, and reject the vast majority of what I see in any holder as not meeting my personal standard. And that's the key. No matter what the holder says, whatever company the holder may be from, I am the final decision maker on all purchases. I don't let a label dictate what I do or don't like. All that matters to me is the coin and the price. If the coin meets my standard and is the right price, then I buy it. That could mean I "overpay" for an NGC coin that is exceptional, but that's fine.
The problem with the Kool Aid in this thread is that the vast majority of responses indicate an issue with NGC coins only with respect to the grades said coins may receive at PCGS. That means people are buying plastic and not coins. For the amount of money people spend on these little metal discs, I continue to be amazed at how much responsibility is placed on the grading company and not the collector. The grading companies most certainly have their place, but if you only know what you want based on how someone else describes it, I dare say perhaps you don't really know. >>
Equally correct and eloquent!
Larry L.
Autism Awareness: There is no limit to the good you can do, if you don't care who gets the credit.
Quote -"The thread makes it painfully obvious who some of the real collectors of coins are....and who some of the plastic slaves are. I don't profess to be close to professional in my grading abilities, but I have no problems in buying what I like raw/ngc/pcgs or whatnot, as long as I understand the risks and am comfortable with the coin myself.
I haven't been in the hobby long enough to be truly saddened by the folks who NEED a certain plastic or sticker in order to feel like they are ok with their purchase, but I am shocked and a bit saddened. Kind of like asking a kid to use a rotary style phone now...they are so used to cellphone and wireless that they may not know how to do it. Stuck on plastic and live/die by that label."
It will be a sad day when I buy or sell a coin based upon what a NGC or PCGS slab claims. If the coin is not obviously "awesome" I will neither buy nor sell the coin. Now, "awesome" is will be "my" opinion........ Not theirs. These guys make money mis grading coins every day and we support them! Plastic, plastic, plastic........
Man you guys are so analytically challenged! When I was 14 and it was in the present it was Ginger for me. Long term was what I was going to do that weekend. I never wanted to marry her. I guess this makes me bad
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>For cheaper coins I agree on cracking out. But for 4-5 digit coins, I don't have the guts to risk a genuine holder. >>
Is this from personal experience or just a statement? If you are buying 4 to 5 digit coins and just relying on a TPG service for their "opinion", you need a major upgrade to your grading knowledge!
Although the thread is not about modern junk, the perceived grading and price differences are useful to me for buying modern NGC 70s as in most cases, the NGC 70s can be had for a lot less than PCGS 70s. For the platinum series and key ASEs/AGEs I am trying to put togeather for grandkids/great grandkids, 50 years from now someone in my family (hopefully) will have some key coins in their hands that are in a NGC slab that says 70. Will anyone be saying 50 years from now NGC overgraded coins as compared to PCGS, who knows? I have no interest in registry or first strike coins so IMHO, no sense in overpaying for modern PCGS 70s.
<< <i>The thread makes it painfully obvious who some of the real collectors of coins are....and who some of the plastic slaves are. I don't profess to be close to professional in my grading abilities, but I have no problems in buying what I like raw/ngc/pcgs or whatnot, as long as I understand the risks and am comfortable with the coin myself.
I haven't been in the hobby long enough to be truly saddened by the folks who NEED a certain plastic or sticker in order to feel like they are ok with their purchase, but I am shocked and a bit saddened. Kind of like asking a kid to use a rotary style phone now...they are so used to cellphone and wireless that they may not know how to do it. Stuck on plastic and live/die by that label. >>
When the power goes out, we use an old rotary. My kid took to it right away, no problem at all....
Too bad those coins went down, Ankur - but on the bright side, those are all very nice coins and quite strong for the grades they've been assigned by our host. The '37 half especially looks undergraded - and I'm guessing will command more than XF45 money when sold.
baised only on those pics I'd have to say that the first grade was the correct grade, so imo your disgust for another TPG's opinon is misplaced. I like you would be unhappy with those grades but unhappy with the second TPG's opinion, not the original grade.
<< <i>There have been so many coins I have purchased in NGC holders over the years, and 90% of them have come back significantly lower when crossed or cracked out and submitted to PCGS. Now many of these coins were purchased years ago when I started collecting and did not know how to grade as well as I do now. But it seems to me the newer holders contain many coins that are overgraded by more than one grade. I have seen multiple examples of this.
I know many here say buy the coin not the holder, but after being burned so many times, I am hesitant buying a coin in an NGC holder unless it is CAC'd. If the grade is on the borderline when you look at it, it most likely will be one grade less when you send it to PCGS. With this overgrading, it is no surprise that many major dealers send their coins to NGC in order to max out the coin.
Fire away. AJ >>
Drink more KOOL-AID quickly. I have found that in the series I collect, high grade circulated barber coins, the amount of problem and overgraded coins are about the same for each service. I have a couple of dealers that I buy from whose grading and problem detection skills, are better and more conservative than either service in my opinion. I also dont submit coins or try to cross them,I am trying to complete the collections in albums. I bought a VF-35 1907-O, dime in a pcgs holder cac'd off e-bay without the best picture, when I got it ,it was VF-20 at best. Why someone got such a coin certified and then sent to cac,still boggles my mind. Between pcgs, cac, postage, The owner could proabably have found a nice AU piece. If I did not have dealers that I trust, I would buy certified coins for dates like 16-D dime,93-S dollar, 09-S vdb cent, coins which are faked alot.
<< <i>Someone said pics would help this thread, so here are a few.
Ex NGC AU55, now PCGS XF45. Submitted raw
EX NGC AU55, now PCGS AU50. Submitted as a crossover.
EX NGC AU55, now PCGS AU50. Submitted raw
Ex NGC AU53. Now PCGS XF45. Submitted raw >>
So you submit to PCGS and than waist your money on a bean on top of that? Geez AnkurJ you're killing me! What the heck are you thinking about? If you want an investment maybe you should try buying bullion?
Raybo: to you what is "waisting" money is solidifying my investment. You are entitled to your own opinion as I am to mine.
But chew on this....practically every major coin auction house submits a good number of their consigned coins to CAC. Why? To maximize their profits. Maybe you will realize this when it comes time to sell.
One thing is for sure. I never criticize the way someone collects. I've said it once, I'll say it again. To each his own.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Raybo: to you what is "waisting" money is solidifying my investment. You are entitled to your own opinion as I am to mine.
But chew on this....practically every major coin auction house submits a good number of their consigned coins to CAC. Why? To maximize their profits. Maybe you will realize this when it comes time to sell.
One thing is for sure. I never criticize the way someone collects. I've said it once, I'll say it again. To each his own. >>
You are so right, you can do want and you seem to be worried about your invesment going up, and so am I in my stock market portfolio, so be it. I want to talk to the people that are interested in the hobby of collecting coins for pleasure, no profits, no TPG propoganda, just the pure pleasure of enjoying the hobby which seems to be a thing of the past with some people. Chew on this, I don't have one coin with a "bean" on it and that's the way I like it (if I had a bean i'd take it but I ain't looking for it), you can have all the beans in the world but if you don't have a clue about grading than PHOOHY on you!
<< <i>This is like a numismatic water boarding. >>
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Ankur what a great thread! Gotta give you that much. With that said, my two cents worth is this: How do you grade those coins? Because that's the grade that's real! I've seen coins that were graded by our host and in my mind they were given a bit of an optimistic grade. I've seen very few that I thought were lower than my estimated grade. In other words it's not he or she or them or it that you belong to. Give the coin your own grade and be done with it. I was taught to never judge a book by it's cover, and the grade on the slab is just that, it's the grade that coin receives from you that counts! To each their own, out of many one.
Regarding the 37 half, where ngc was perhaps a bit optimistic at 55, at 45 (with a rounded cheek like that) you got hosed this time around by pcgs. Proper grade? Probably au-50. You know the rule... if the grade don't fit, resubmit!
To respond to the OP, when you routinely cross NGC coins to PCGS then aren't you "done with NGC" anyway?
Certain series of coins (such as MS Washington Quarters) are graded differently at NGC than PCGS (based on my experience I would estimate NGC grades then .5 points higher on average). For MS FBL Frankies, NGC seems tougher than PCGS. Others series seem to be fairly consistent (like Morgan and Peace Dollars). There are differences between circulated, MS, and proof coins as well. The key is to know these differences and how they affect value, which is part of knowing how to grade.
Personally, I prefer PCGS coins because I prefer the look of the holders, and I like the registry better. I personally do not like the look of NGC holders, especially for small coins and I hate the prongs (I dont mind the PCGS prongs as much because they are clear). But when I consider a coin for my collection, I look at PCGS, NGC, ANACS, raw, whatever -- if the coin is nice, I buy it. To stick only with coins previously graded by PCGS, you severelly limit your choices for a particular coin you need.
Intereting thread that is a must read for beginning buyers/sellers of slabbed coins. The conclusions are not about what is the correct grade created by different TPGs but how the slab influences the market value. To this regard Roadrunners comments are particularly telling. For those that know from experience the financial side of the market you may have wasted a perfectly good hour :-)
<< <i> I want to talk to the people that are interested in the hobby of collecting coins for pleasure, no profits, no TPG propoganda, just the pure pleasure of enjoying the hobby which seems to be a thing of the past with some people. Like I said, I still buy raw and do fine. >>
Music to my ears. I have found that if I post a pic of a coin that really gets my blood flowing, like this 1818 O-104b (?) that may be listed as a potential R6 or R7 piece I get some really different responses. This variety has had some great threads posted.
The people who are real collectors see something like this and the conversation goes in the direction of the coin: "Check the reverse and see if there is a crack over AMERI" "Is the die break triangular" "Does the crack connect stars 8 thru 13 "
The plastic weenies take it in this direction: "Cleaned and re-toned - PASS" "Genie, cleaned" "There is a reason why it's raw" "Get it in a slab then we can talk"
No you chuckle heads ! This is a GREAT coin that I am lucky to own. Plastic or no plastic.
The freakin Tower at Pisa leans....... The Great Wall of China is missing a few bricks.... And the UFO antenna fell off the top of the Great Pyramid...
Some of you guys are just plain funny. Yeah yeah yeah Collect what and how you like. Me - I like Raybo
<< <i>Regarding the 37 half, where ngc was perhaps a bit optimistic at 55, at 45 (with a rounded cheek like that) you got hosed this time around by pcgs. Proper grade? Probably au-50. You know the rule... if the grade don't fit, resubmit! >>
How many times are you going to resubmit a $300 coin ?
<< <i>Regarding the 37 half, where ngc was perhaps a bit optimistic at 55, at 45 (with a rounded cheek like that) you got hosed this time around by pcgs. Proper grade? Probably au-50. You know the rule... if the grade don't fit, resubmit! >>
How many times are you going to resubmit a $300 coin ? >>
Exactly! I sent the coin in raw for what its worth. I think its much easier to sell a slabbed coin online vs a raw one.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Raybo , I'm with you. Never had a coin CAC'd (could be due to not having any worth it), but, have had a few guys in the office trying to sell coins in both company's holders with stickers that just were not worth the money asked, to me.
I can say this with confidence : ANACS, ICG, PCI have housed some great coins. In essence, the collector who likes the coin hoards it for a long time. The speculator who sees it, wants to get it into a "top tier holder". The investor wants to pay top dollar for it after it gets in the right holder and they pay even more money to have yet another grader/dealer confirm that this item is "investment worthy" by way of the sticker.
It's really a crap shoot in the long run with coins and the hobby. Some cannot enjoy it without the plastic. Some cannot trust without the sticker. For others, it's apparent one has to be in a certain "circle". That's why AnkurJ titled the thread : "I may get flamed...." but in essence he's doing us all a world wide flavor.
Education is key and there are lots of tokens in NGC holders that will never see a CAC sticker or a PCGS holder. I guess in the scope of this thread, we all have a view of the hobby through our own experiences.
Am glad I've had the opportunity to see, view, and deal with coins you collect. You have great taste and good eyes.
<< <i>Regarding the 37 half, where ngc was perhaps a bit optimistic at 55, at 45 (with a rounded cheek like that) you got hosed this time around by pcgs. Proper grade? Probably au-50. You know the rule... if the grade don't fit, resubmit! >>
How many times are you going to resubmit a $300 coin ? >>
Exactly! I sent the coin in raw for what its worth. I think its much easier to sell a slabbed coin online vs a raw one. >>
Depends entirely on how much you want it in plastic, what kind of plastic, etc. Some people get coins graded for sentimental reasons or to have a particular type set all in a certain holder, etc. Others might be fine having a lovely coin like that in a Capital Plastics 3x3.
Up to you Ankur, but the coin is clearly an AU-50. If you're comfortable with it as that, I'd crack it out and try again if you must have it in PCGS plastic, or keep it raw. It seems like you're trying to sell it though? Sounds good if so, please sell to me at whatever an XF-45 is worth.
<< <i>Regarding the 37 half, where ngc was perhaps a bit optimistic at 55, at 45 (with a rounded cheek like that) you got hosed this time around by pcgs. Proper grade? Probably au-50. You know the rule... if the grade don't fit, resubmit! >>
How many times are you going to resubmit a $300 coin ? >>
Exactly! I sent the coin in raw for what its worth. I think its much easier to sell a slabbed coin online vs a raw one. >>
Depends entirely on how much you want it in plastic, what kind of plastic, etc. Some people get coins graded for sentimental reasons or to have a particular type set all in a certain holder, etc. Others might be fine having a lovely coin like that in a Capital Plastics 3x3.
Up to you Ankur, but the coin is clearly an AU-50. If you're comfortable with it as that, I'd crack it out and try again if you must have it in PCGS plastic, or keep it raw. It seems like you're trying to sell it though? Sounds good if so, please sell to me at whatever an XF-45 is worth. >>
Coin is pending sale. It sold for more than XF money though. I had a few inquiries about it from my site. Even with what it sold for, I took close to a $120 loss on it as I paid AU55 money for it.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
All I can say is PCGS did some damn good market positioning in that when somebody submits a coin and they get a lower grade than both they and NGC thought it was, that they then go and get mad at NGC. Perhaps the reason why PCGS coins sell for more is that many PCGS coins are undergraded? Just a thought.
Ankur, nevermind, your '37 half is really more of a choice VF, now that I look at it again. Please sell it to me as such! Happy to do you the favor of taking that dog off your hands.
Edit to say: sorry in all seriousness that you took a loss on it -- but no one forced you to? Were it my coin I'd have simply kept it and thought on it awhile -- to me it's clearly an AU50 and probably your loss was ultimately the buyer's gain, for it's a very nice coin.
Ankur, nevermind, your '37 half is really more of a choice VF, now that I look at it again. Please sell it to me as such! Happy to do you the favor of taking that dog off your hands.
Edit to say: sorry in all seriousness that you took a loss on it -- but no one forced you to? Were it my coin I'd have simply kept it and thought on it awhile -- to me it's clearly an AU50 and probably your loss was ultimately the buyer's gain, for it's a very nice coin. >>
But if you can get it into a VF slab then you might get a gold bean. Lets see....a 55 naked slab or a 35 slab with a gold bean.... which would I rather have....
Comments
MJ >>
This should be the golden rule for collectors.
peacockcoins
<< <i>Now that we've put this debate to rest: PCGS really is better than NGC, can we move along and discuss Pepsi vs Coke? >>
Sure, then Toyota vs. Honda, BMW vs. Mercedes, Russ vs. MadMarty, Brady vs. Eli....the possibilities are endless.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Ginger Vs Mary Anne is the ultimate debate. MJ >>
Not really. Gotta think long term. Ginger is more exciting, and more dangerous (high maintenance); long term, the excitement abates once the wrinkles set in.
MA, on the other hand, is somewhat boring short term, probably low maintenance, and likely safer long term.
Kinda like looking at a wildly toned coin---is everything real, will the color rinse off with acetone, and might it morph into a dog in a couple of decades?
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Ginger Vs Mary Anne is the ultimate debate. MJ >>
No debate their MJ.....it's Mary Anne all the way! Ginger was just too much work.
Maybe I was too drawn to all the farmer's daughters of the 60's and 70's: Mary Anne, Elly May, the Petticoat Junction gals, and even Eva on Green Acres...lol.
I think even Raquel in 1 MILL yrs BC fish farmed when she wasn't trying to keep her "outfit" on.
And to keep this topical which of the Gilligan's Island characters collected coins?
<< <i>
<< <i>Ginger Vs Mary Anne is the ultimate debate. MJ >>
No debate their MJ.....it's Mary Anne all the way! Ginger was just too much work. >>
<< <i>I also like coins to retain their value. If I like another coin better, I would rather not take a beating getting out of one coin and into the other. >>
I think we all agree with this....difference is, and correct me if I am wrong, you go in on a coin purchase with an eye to the grade/value and whether you agree or not. You compare with what you think the resell would be (gradewise) and what an up/down difference is for the coin.
You don't go into a coin saying "well, the label says MS65, so I will treat it as a MS65 all day long by any and all grading services"......, right?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I recommend a fast forward to the Ginger- Mary Anne discussion
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Sure, then Toyota vs. Honda, BMW vs. Mercedes, Russ vs. MadMarty, Brady vs. Eli....the possibilities are endless.
RYK vs. Longacre...
<< <i>
<< <i>Sure, then Toyota vs. Honda, BMW vs. Mercedes, Russ vs. MadMarty, Brady vs. Eli....the possibilities are endless.
RYK vs. Longacre... >>
Doctor vs. lawyer? No contest. Nuff said...
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Ginger Vs Mary Anne is the ultimate debate. MJ >>
No debate their MJ.....it's Mary Anne all the way! Ginger was just too much work. >>
You guys are forgetting Mrs. Howell ("Lovely"). Sure, she was married back in the day but you know she's a divorcee now and took half of Mr. Howell's stuff.
More cash to buy coins with.
(PCGS, of course, never would waste Mr. Howell's money on NGC...)
peacockcoins
<< <i>
<< <i>Ginger Vs Mary Anne is the ultimate debate. MJ >>
Not really. Gotta think long term. Ginger is more exciting, and more dangerous (high maintenance); long term, the excitement abates once the wrinkles set in.
MA, on the other hand, is somewhat boring short term, probably low maintenance, and likely safer long term.
Kinda like looking at a wildly toned coin---is everything real, will the color rinse off with acetone, and might it morph into a dog in a couple of decades? >>
Are we talking renting or owning?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Ginger Vs Mary Anne is the ultimate debate. MJ >>
No debate their MJ.....it's Mary Anne all the way! Ginger was just too much work. >>
jump ahead today, I second that, have you seen what ginger looks like.............ouch.......maryanne may look like a cute ole grandma that bakes cookies but ginger looks like one of those
over the hill made up saggy hollywood flusies that had too much plastic surgery and hair dye and could star in hush hush sweet charlotte a la 2012 and that ain't a pretty sight I am trying to paint...speaking of paint. >>
This thread would be much enriched with pics.
Then and now.
Oh, and it's Mary Anne by a country mile.
<< <i>Ginger Vs Mary Anne is the ultimate debate. MJ >>
Mary Anne ... no contest!
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>
<< <i>Here are a few examples of crosses I have had:
1837 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS XF45
1857 Flying Eagle Cent NGC AU58 to PCGS XF45
1836 Bust Half NGC AU58 to PCGS AU53
1835 Bust Half NGC AU55 to PCGS AU50
Bust dime from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45
1832 Bust Half from NGC AU53 to PCGS XF45
The list goes on....
Out of all of my crossover submissions, I have had exactly 3 that upgraded. >>
With all due respect, this doesn't mean anything with respect to the ability of either PCGS or NGC to grade. On any or all of the coins, the following could be true:
1- PCGS undergraded them
2- NGC overgraded them
3- PCGS undergraded them and NGC overgraded them
4- PCGS was right
5- NGC was right
An elementary understanding of statistics and the coin market can easily show how anyone can skew these results. If the coins were sold in the NGC holders at the price consistent with the same grade at PCGS, then you overpaid. If they were sold at the same price as the PCGS grade, then you paid the right price. That scale is simply set on who is the baseline. If we call NGC the baseline, then the reverse is true. There are plenty of reasons why you, or anyone else, could end up with numerous coins that would not cross from NGC to PCGS:
1- In this day and age where everyone wants the best score, you paid too much for the coin. You convinced yourself that you were getting a PCGS [grade X] in an NGC [grade X] holder.
2- When an NGC coin is set to PCGS as a crossover, PCGS wants to show that they're stricter, so they grade the coin lower. Human nature dictates the graders do this, even if they try not to. If you want to be better than your competitor, there's no easier way than, when given the opportunity to say flat out, "our competitor has lower standards," you take it.
3- You're unlucky
But I doubt it's just #3. My collection has a large number of NGC coins, because I've found coins I like in NGC holders and saw no reason to cross them. I spent a lot of time looking for very high quality examples, and reject the vast majority of what I see in any holder as not meeting my personal standard. And that's the key. No matter what the holder says, whatever company the holder may be from, I am the final decision maker on all purchases. I don't let a label dictate what I do or don't like. All that matters to me is the coin and the price. If the coin meets my standard and is the right price, then I buy it. That could mean I "overpay" for an NGC coin that is exceptional, but that's fine.
The problem with the Kool Aid in this thread is that the vast majority of responses indicate an issue with NGC coins only with respect to the grades said coins may receive at PCGS. That means people are buying plastic and not coins. For the amount of money people spend on these little metal discs, I continue to be amazed at how much responsibility is placed on the grading company and not the collector. The grading companies most certainly have their place, but if you only know what you want based on how someone else describes it, I dare say perhaps you don't really know. >>
Equally correct and eloquent!
Larry L.
I don't profess to be close to professional in my grading abilities, but I have no problems in buying what I like raw/ngc/pcgs or whatnot, as long as I understand the risks and am comfortable with the coin myself.
I haven't been in the hobby long enough to be truly saddened by the folks who NEED a certain plastic or sticker in order to feel like they are ok with their purchase, but I am shocked and a bit saddened.
Kind of like asking a kid to use a rotary style phone now...they are so used to cellphone and wireless that they may not know how to do it. Stuck on plastic and live/die by that label."
It will be a sad day when I buy or sell a coin based upon what a NGC or PCGS slab claims. If the coin is not obviously "awesome" I will neither buy nor sell the coin. Now, "awesome" is will be "my" opinion........ Not theirs. These guys make money mis grading coins every day and we support them! Plastic, plastic, plastic........
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>For cheaper coins I agree on cracking out. But for 4-5 digit coins, I don't have the guts to risk a genuine holder. >>
Is this from personal experience or just a statement?
If you are buying 4 to 5 digit coins and just relying on a TPG service for their "opinion", you need a major upgrade to your grading knowledge!
I still buy raw once in a while and do very well.
Ex NGC AU55, now PCGS XF45. Submitted raw
EX NGC AU55, now PCGS AU50. Submitted as a crossover.
EX NGC AU55, now PCGS AU50. Submitted raw
Ex NGC AU53. Now PCGS XF45. Submitted raw
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>The thread makes it painfully obvious who some of the real collectors of coins are....and who some of the plastic slaves are.
I don't profess to be close to professional in my grading abilities, but I have no problems in buying what I like raw/ngc/pcgs or whatnot, as long as I understand the risks and am comfortable with the coin myself.
I haven't been in the hobby long enough to be truly saddened by the folks who NEED a certain plastic or sticker in order to feel like they are ok with their purchase, but I am shocked and a bit saddened.
Kind of like asking a kid to use a rotary style phone now...they are so used to cellphone and wireless that they may not know how to do it. Stuck on plastic and live/die by that label. >>
When the power goes out, we use an old rotary. My kid took to it right away, no problem at all....
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>There have been so many coins I have purchased in NGC holders over the years, and 90% of them have come back significantly lower when crossed or cracked out and submitted to PCGS. Now many of these coins were purchased years ago when I started collecting and did not know how to grade as well as I do now. But it seems to me the newer holders contain many coins that are overgraded by more than one grade. I have seen multiple examples of this.
I know many here say buy the coin not the holder, but after being burned so many times, I am hesitant buying a coin in an NGC holder unless it is CAC'd. If the grade is on the borderline when you look at it, it most likely will be one grade less when you send it to PCGS. With this overgrading, it is no surprise that many major dealers send their coins to NGC in order to max out the coin.
Fire away.
AJ >>
Drink more KOOL-AID quickly. I have found that in the series I collect, high grade circulated barber coins, the amount of problem and overgraded coins are about the same for each service. I have a couple of dealers that I buy from whose grading and problem detection skills, are better and more conservative than either service in my opinion. I also dont submit coins or try to cross them,I am trying to complete the collections in albums. I bought a VF-35 1907-O, dime in a pcgs holder cac'd off e-bay without the best picture, when I got it ,it was VF-20 at best. Why someone got such a coin certified and then sent to cac,still boggles my mind. Between pcgs, cac, postage, The owner could proabably have found a nice AU piece. If I did not have dealers that I trust, I would buy certified coins for dates like 16-D dime,93-S dollar, 09-S vdb cent, coins which are faked alot.
<< <i>Someone said pics would help this thread, so here are a few.
Ex NGC AU55, now PCGS XF45. Submitted raw
EX NGC AU55, now PCGS AU50. Submitted as a crossover.
EX NGC AU55, now PCGS AU50. Submitted raw
Ex NGC AU53. Now PCGS XF45. Submitted raw
So you submit to PCGS and than waist your money on a bean on top of that?
Geez AnkurJ you're killing me! What the heck are you thinking about?
If you want an investment maybe you should try buying bullion?
But chew on this....practically every major coin auction house submits a good number of their consigned coins to CAC. Why? To maximize their profits. Maybe you will realize this when it comes time to sell.
One thing is for sure. I never criticize the way someone collects. I've said it once, I'll say it again. To each his own.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>Raybo: to you what is "waisting" money is solidifying my investment. You are entitled to your own opinion as I am to mine.
But chew on this....practically every major coin auction house submits a good number of their consigned coins to CAC. Why? To maximize their profits. Maybe you will realize this when it comes time to sell.
One thing is for sure. I never criticize the way someone collects. I've said it once, I'll say it again. To each his own. >>
You are so right, you can do want and you seem to be worried about your invesment going up, and so am I in my stock market portfolio, so be it.
I want to talk to the people that are interested in the hobby of collecting coins for pleasure, no profits, no TPG propoganda, just the pure pleasure of enjoying the hobby which seems to be a thing of the past with some people.
Chew on this, I don't have one coin with a "bean" on it and that's the way I like it (if I had a bean i'd take it but I ain't looking for it), you can have all the beans in the world but if you don't have a clue about grading than PHOOHY on you!
Like I said, I still buy raw and do fine.
<< <i>This is like a numismatic water boarding. >>
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I really don't see the need to cross these-
Unfortunately, this thread reflects an unhealthy obession with plastic instead of coins.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Certain series of coins (such as MS Washington Quarters) are graded differently at NGC than PCGS (based on my experience I would estimate NGC grades then .5 points higher on average). For MS FBL Frankies, NGC seems tougher than PCGS. Others series seem to be fairly consistent (like Morgan and Peace Dollars). There are differences between circulated, MS, and proof coins as well. The key is to know these differences and how they affect value, which is part of knowing how to grade.
Personally, I prefer PCGS coins because I prefer the look of the holders, and I like the registry better. I personally do not like the look of NGC holders, especially for small coins and I hate the prongs (I dont mind the PCGS prongs as much because they are clear). But when I consider a coin for my collection, I look at PCGS, NGC, ANACS, raw, whatever -- if the coin is nice, I buy it. To stick only with coins previously graded by PCGS, you severelly limit your choices for a particular coin you need.
To this regard Roadrunners comments are particularly telling. For those that know from experience the financial side of the market you may have wasted a perfectly good hour :-)
<< <i>
I want to talk to the people that are interested in the hobby of collecting coins for pleasure, no profits, no TPG propoganda, just the pure pleasure of enjoying the hobby which seems to be a thing of the past with some people.
Like I said, I still buy raw and do fine.
Music to my ears.
I have found that if I post a pic of a coin that really gets my blood flowing, like this 1818 O-104b (?) that may be listed as a potential R6 or R7 piece I get some really different responses. This variety has had some great threads posted.
The people who are real collectors see something like this and the conversation goes in the direction of the coin:
"Check the reverse and see if there is a crack over AMERI"
"Is the die break triangular"
"Does the crack connect stars 8 thru 13 "
The plastic weenies take it in this direction:
"Cleaned and re-toned - PASS"
"Genie, cleaned"
"There is a reason why it's raw"
"Get it in a slab then we can talk"
No you chuckle heads !
This is a GREAT coin that I am lucky to own.
Plastic or no plastic.
The freakin Tower at Pisa leans.......
The Great Wall of China is missing a few bricks....
And the UFO antenna fell off the top of the Great Pyramid...
Some of you guys are just plain funny.
Yeah yeah yeah
Collect what and how you like.
Me - I like Raybo
<< <i>Regarding the 37 half, where ngc was perhaps a bit optimistic at 55, at 45 (with a rounded cheek like that) you got hosed this time around by pcgs. Proper grade? Probably au-50. You know the rule... if the grade don't fit, resubmit! >>
How many times are you going to resubmit a $300 coin ?
<< <i>
<< <i>Regarding the 37 half, where ngc was perhaps a bit optimistic at 55, at 45 (with a rounded cheek like that) you got hosed this time around by pcgs. Proper grade? Probably au-50. You know the rule... if the grade don't fit, resubmit! >>
How many times are you going to resubmit a $300 coin ? >>
Exactly! I sent the coin in raw for what its worth. I think its much easier to sell a slabbed coin online vs a raw one.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
I can say this with confidence :
ANACS, ICG, PCI have housed some great coins. In essence, the collector who likes the coin hoards it for a long time. The speculator who sees it, wants to get it into a "top tier holder". The investor wants to pay top dollar for it after it gets in the right holder and they pay even more money to have yet another grader/dealer confirm that this item is "investment worthy" by way of the sticker.
It's really a crap shoot in the long run with coins and the hobby. Some cannot enjoy it without the plastic. Some cannot trust without the sticker. For others, it's apparent one has to be in a certain "circle". That's why AnkurJ titled the thread : "I may get flamed...." but in essence he's doing us all a world wide flavor.
Education is key and there are lots of tokens in NGC holders that will never see a CAC sticker or a PCGS holder.
I guess in the scope of this thread, we all have a view of the hobby through our own experiences.
Am glad I've had the opportunity to see, view, and deal with coins you collect. You have great taste and good eyes.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>The longest reply by Two Sides ever....this is a very special thread indeed. >>
Joe is a man of few words.
But you should see him on the dance floor.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Regarding the 37 half, where ngc was perhaps a bit optimistic at 55, at 45 (with a rounded cheek like that) you got hosed this time around by pcgs. Proper grade? Probably au-50. You know the rule... if the grade don't fit, resubmit! >>
How many times are you going to resubmit a $300 coin ? >>
Exactly! I sent the coin in raw for what its worth. I think its much easier to sell a slabbed coin online vs a raw one. >>
Depends entirely on how much you want it in plastic, what kind of plastic, etc. Some people get coins graded for sentimental reasons or to have a particular type set all in a certain holder, etc. Others might be fine having a lovely coin like that in a Capital Plastics 3x3.
Up to you Ankur, but the coin is clearly an AU-50. If you're comfortable with it as that, I'd crack it out and try again if you must have it in PCGS plastic, or keep it raw. It seems like you're trying to sell it though? Sounds good if so, please sell to me at whatever an XF-45 is worth.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Regarding the 37 half, where ngc was perhaps a bit optimistic at 55, at 45 (with a rounded cheek like that) you got hosed this time around by pcgs. Proper grade? Probably au-50. You know the rule... if the grade don't fit, resubmit! >>
How many times are you going to resubmit a $300 coin ? >>
Exactly! I sent the coin in raw for what its worth. I think its much easier to sell a slabbed coin online vs a raw one. >>
Depends entirely on how much you want it in plastic, what kind of plastic, etc. Some people get coins graded for sentimental reasons or to have a particular type set all in a certain holder, etc. Others might be fine having a lovely coin like that in a Capital Plastics 3x3.
Up to you Ankur, but the coin is clearly an AU-50. If you're comfortable with it as that, I'd crack it out and try again if you must have it in PCGS plastic, or keep it raw. It seems like you're trying to sell it though? Sounds good if so, please sell to me at whatever an XF-45 is worth.
Coin is pending sale. It sold for more than XF money though. I had a few inquiries about it from my site.
Even with what it sold for, I took close to a $120 loss on it as I paid AU55 money for it.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
-Paul
Ankur, nevermind, your '37 half is really more of a choice VF, now that I look at it again. Please sell it to me as such! Happy to do you the favor of taking that dog off your hands.
Edit to say: sorry in all seriousness that you took a loss on it -- but no one forced you to? Were it my coin I'd have simply kept it and thought on it awhile -- to me it's clearly an AU50 and probably
your loss was ultimately the buyer's gain, for it's a very nice coin.
<< <i>Paul, I think you just blew my mind.
Ankur, nevermind, your '37 half is really more of a choice VF, now that I look at it again. Please sell it to me as such! Happy to do you the favor of taking that dog off your hands.
Edit to say: sorry in all seriousness that you took a loss on it -- but no one forced you to? Were it my coin I'd have simply kept it and thought on it awhile -- to me it's clearly an AU50 and probably
your loss was ultimately the buyer's gain, for it's a very nice coin. >>
But if you can get it into a VF slab then you might get a gold bean.
Lets see....a 55 naked slab or a 35 slab with a gold bean.... which would I rather have....
What coin were we talking about again ?