Latest Legend Hot Topic posted

Justacommeman · January 14, 2012 2:29PM

bonus coverage

MJ

JupitarCoins · January 14, 2012 2:34PM

Read it already.
Thanx anyway.

Mowgli · January 14, 2012 3:03PM

In fact, from what I see, just about every YN that comes in and becomes a dealer takes the route of easy money by starting as a "crackout" dealer. From there they dabble a little in doctoring and then they go on to figure out advanced techniques."

IMO this is the reason it is so hard to get a meaningful number of dealers to support Laura's position on coin doctoring - ALL dealer were once young and struggling to get their businesses going - so they did what they thought they needed to to make a buck. My guess is that no one has clean hands on this issue. It makes it difficult to condemn others when the persons doing the condemning could have their pasts dragged up. Furthermore, getting people to agree to something that could cost them money is going to be difficult - remember that even when people are killed because of unsafe working conditions, the other workers still picket OSHA (or similar body) when they shut their plants down and they cannot work.

Another point is that change always created winners and losers. The potential winners will push for the change and the potential losers will fight it. They both have a vested interest in the outcome so their silence or outspokenness is self-serving.

bulldozer · January 14, 2012 8:55PM

I got my button at ANA. Saw David Hall wearing one!

ricko · January 14, 2012 11:46PM

I do believe she would be a positive force there... IF they allow her to stay....Cheers, RickO

joebb21 · January 15, 2012 12:31AM

I want a button!

BillJones · January 15, 2012 12:52AM

I'll admit that when I was dealer I did crack out some coins and sent them in for grading. My success rate was very high. I never played with any coins, however, since that has never been one of my interests.

I will admit to putting a coin in a less than sulfur free envelope and leaving it there for several years when I was a collector. In a number of cases copper or silver coins that had been dipped or lightly cleaned toned back to a respectable color. BUT the technique took too long of a time to be of much use to dealers who are looking for the quick flip.

astrorat · January 15, 2012 1:36AM

Laura has my vote. Heck, it may even be worth the absurdity of "running" for the Board just to be on the Board with her! Lots of apple carts need tipping.

TAMU15 · January 15, 2012 1:49AM

I agree with Mowgli.

RYK · January 15, 2012 1:52AM

I like Laura, likes what she stands for, etc., but I have some trouble getting my arms around this coin doctoring issue. As far as I am concerned, when you own the coin, you can do whatever you want to it. I can take my recently acquired 1818 $5 and drill a hole in it. It's my business and nobody else's. What I cannot do is drill a hole in it, have it expertly fixed, and then pass it off as "original" or "undamaged".

And when someone alters a coin to make it more salable without disclosure and without the average collector being able to detect that it has been altered, that's where I draw the line. A lot of it comes down to the intent to deceive for profit, which may be considered acceptable in some corners of the coin business*, but not acceptable when it comes down to, for example, covering or removing hairlines on a 19th century proof gold coin...or is it?

It gets very murky, very quickly, and ultimately we are left with a definition of coin doctoring to be like the famous definition of pornography ('I know it when I see it"), which is very unsatisfying.

I wish Laura the best in her struggle against the forces of wrongdoing in the coin biz, but it will be a tough battle.

* No, I am not going to give examples--most of you know some examples of what I am talking about.

Lakesammman · January 15, 2012 2:11AM

Had the button too! Didn't want the hole in my shirt.....

Coupdescrounge · January 15, 2012 2:31AM

Coin doctoring seems like a minor issue in comparison to today's counterfeiting.
Most people I would guess who doctor are attempting to enhance the desirability of the coin.
Maybe they fail or maybe they succeed, but isn't that one of the important services a grading service
provides?

What I see as a far more damaging problem is the counterfeiting. Slabs, Coins, even bullion.
Negatively effects confidence far more than doctoring imo.

coinkat · January 15, 2012 2:38AM

I see things a little different in terms of the obligations that are part of collecting- the goal should be insure that future generations enjoy coins and appreciate them for what they are from a artistic and historical perspective.

Yukoncornelius1 · January 15, 2012 5:54AM

<< Coin doctoring seems like a minor issue in comparison to today's counterfeiting.
Most people I would guess who doctor are attempting to enhance the desirability of the coin.
Maybe they fail or maybe they succeed, but isn't that one of the important services a grading service
provides?

What I see as a far more damaging problem is the counterfeiting. Slabs, Coins, even bullion.
Negatively effects confidence far more than doctoring imo.[/

100% agree!!! Counterfiet coins and slabs flooding in from china could potentially ruin the hobby.

Coin doctoring is a problem for sure but it is a drop in the bucket compared to the decent looking crap coming out of china.

mkman123 · January 15, 2012 6:09AM

Counterfeits are a huge issue as well, I hope she comes out guns ablazing against counterfeits

blu62vette · January 15, 2012 6:16AM

She has my vote.

JBatDavidLawrence · January 15, 2012 1:05PM

<< In fact, from what I see, just about every YN that comes in and becomes a dealer takes the route of easy money by starting as a "crackout" dealer. From there they dabble a little in doctoring and then they go on to figure out advanced techniques."

IMO this is the reason it is so hard to get a meaningful number of dealers to support Laura's position on coin doctoring - ALL dealer were once young and struggling to get their businesses going - so they did what they thought they needed to to make a buck. My guess is that no one has clean hands on this issue. It makes it difficult to condemn others when the persons doing the condemning could have their pasts dragged up. Furthermore, getting people to agree to something that could cost them money is going to be difficult - remember that even when people are killed because of unsafe working conditions, the other workers still picket OSHA (or similar body) when they shut their plants down and they cannot work.

Another point is that change always created winners and losers. The potential winners will push for the change and the potential losers will fight it. They both have a vested interest in the outcome so their silence or outspokenness is self-serving. >>

Laura makes a good point, but I can think of a few successful YNs who came into the business as traders and not "crack-out" dealers. I, for one, came into the industry as a collector with an appreciation for coins and their history. There are many positions available for YNs with similar desires, but it's not the way to "get rich quick". It's for those with a long-term view and that truly enjoy the hobby.

I too hope that the coin doctoring definition is passed and believe that in the long term something will eventually happen. But something so complex cannot be passed and defined quickly.

AMRC · January 15, 2012 1:17PM

Yes, coin life would be perfect if all of us bought and sold all of our coins from her. She is a train wreak in the making, and can't understand why she is standing in the rain alone. You cannot go on mouthing off and tearing down everything you come across just because you are not educated enough to understand how to do it any other way. She quit on the committee and still complains. Next we are going to listen to all those who choose to complain but never vote.

Run for the ANA Board? Try showing up for something ANA related first that is not a show.

Coinosaurus · January 15, 2012 1:44PM

Remember that Ross Perot guy in 1992? Everyone thought he was a kook, but danged if he didn't change the terms of the debate.

Ya know, even if Laura blew off all the board meetings and generally didn't participate in the everyday mundane stuff, it might be worth putting her on the board so she could use the bully pulpit.

Even if the PNG (or ANA) never takes an official stand, just getting the issue out there and making the end user (collector) more aware, IMHO, is a quite valuable thing.

MrEureka · January 15, 2012 1:46PM

There is so much misinformation in this "Hot Topics" article that I can't address it all tonight. But I will start by saying that Laura's comment about "the definition" being voted into "purgatory" is misleading. In fact, there was a vote to determine if the efforts to define doctoring should be continued or abandoned, and the majority voted for continuing. As a result, the PNG Board is now reviewing the committee's draft.

I should also mention that I was on the committee, I was at the meeting, and I've discussed this issue with many people, including PNG leadership and coin doctors.

More tomorrow...

TWQG · January 15, 2012 2:27PM

<< There is so much misinformation in this "Hot Topics" article that I can't address it all tonight. But I will start by saying that Laura's comment about "the definition" being voted into "purgatory" is misleading. In fact, there was a vote to determine if the efforts to define doctoring should be continued or abandoned, and the majority voted for continuing. As a result, the PNG Board is now reviewing the committee's draft.

I should also mention that I was on the committee, I was at the meeting, and I've discussed this issue with many people, including PNG leadership and coin doctors.

More tomorrow... >>

I'm tuned in <popcorn>

pennyannie · January 15, 2012 4:37PM

If you buy an undergraded coin in 63 for 100 bucks and it belongs in a 65 holder with a value of 500 why in the world would you not have it reholdered? A smart dealer is not going to buy the 63 for 100 bucks from a collector and resell it for 125 bucks. The thing that irks me the most is when a coin in a 63 holder is priced at 65 levels because the dealer says it is a 65 or possible 66.

melvin289 · January 15, 2012 5:05PM

For the life of me I don't see what the problem is with someone breaking a coin out and resubmitting it for a higher grade. Even the TPG's make mistakes from time to time.

Ron

sonoranmonsoon · January 15, 2012 9:56PM

Coin doctoring will not be stopped. People can and will do what they want to do with their own coins. The emphasis should be focused on the third party graders. Collectors Universe has done a good job whith sports cards by watching for trimmed edges. With stamps, reperfs and regumming are also detected. Doctored coins should be carefully watched for and slabbed accordingly. The companies that do a good job, will be rewarded with a better reputation and more business.

MrEureka · January 16, 2012 12:00AM

Coin doctoring will not be stopped. People can and will do what they want to do with their own coins. The emphasis should be focused on the third party graders. Collectors Universe has done a good job whith sports cards by watching for trimmed edges. With stamps, reperfs and regumming are also detected. Doctored coins should be carefully watched for and slabbed accordingly. The companies that do a good job, will be rewarded with a better reputation and more business.

This is absolutely true, but that does not mean that only the TPGs have the power to combat the problem. For a perfect example, look at CAC. Also, consider that if the PNG defines and outlaws coin doctoring, the TPGs will then have an economical and effective channel of recourse against doctor/members via PNG arbitration.

astrorat · January 16, 2012 12:33AM

<< Also, consider that if the PNG defines and outlaws coin doctoring, the TPGs will then have an economical and effective channel of recourse against doctor/members via PNG arbitration. >>

What enforcement ability will the PNG have other than what affects membership? Will PNG work with authorities to pursue fraud charges? Or will they be like the ANA ... impotent with respect to anything meaningful. Now that the PNG is working doggedly to define coin doctoring, what will the PNG do with that definition?

Wingsrule · January 16, 2012 12:36AM

Now that the PNG is working doggedly to define coin doctoring, what will the PNG do with that definition?

+1

Wingsrule · January 16, 2012 12:39AM

Also, consider that if the PNG defines and outlaws coin doctoring, the TPGs will then have an economical and effective channel of recourse against doctor/members via PNG arbitration.

But if said alleged doctor is not a PNG member, does the PNG have any binding control over them?

I have ideas, but no answers, and I am anxiously awaiting the follow up to your post from yesterday.

astrorat · January 16, 2012 12:41AM

<< Run for the ANA Board? Try showing up for something ANA related first that is not a show. >>

If this is in reference to my post above ... I have been on staff and a volunteer instructor for the Summer Seminar and coin show educational seminars. I do agree with you ... do something for the ANA before you try to do something to the ANA. Too many people use the ANA for their own gain rather than the benefit of the hobby.

MrEureka · January 16, 2012 1:03AM

What enforcement ability will the PNG have other than what affects membership? Will PNG work with authorities to pursue fraud charges? Or will they be like the ANA ... impotent with respect to anything meaningful. Now that the PNG is working doggedly to define coin doctoring, what will the PNG do with that definition?

The PNG has no power over non-members, but they could work with authorities if the opportunity presented itself.

As for what the PNG will do with the definition, great question! Although there is a lot of confusion about this, the fact is that the issues related to coin doctoring are largely unaddressed by the PNG bylaws and Code of Ethics. I do, however, think that it's fair to assume that these issues will be addressed when and if a definition is finally adopted, and rules will be set in place at that time. (It's up to the PNG Board, not the "Definition Committee", to come up with the rules.)

AMRC · January 16, 2012 1:18AM

<< For the life of me I don't see what the problem is with someone breaking a coin out and resubmitting it for a higher grade. Even the TPG's make mistakes from time to time.

Ron >>

Nothing. The problem is what you do to the coin after you crack it out get it into a higher grade holder. The probability of going from a 63 to a 65 just from cracking it out is very low.

CoinRaritiesOnline · January 16, 2012 4:11AM

Hi All:

I attended that PNG meeting. I am not sure that someone from Legend was actually present, though I am pretty certain they were invited.

My recollection of what went on in that meeting was different than what I just read in that report.

At the meeting, the new proposed doctoring definition was read, and it was voted on by those PNG members present.

The objections voiced by some at the meeting were mainly due to the new definition's length & complexity -- not that the PNG shouldn't have a definition at all. In the end, the matter was voted on, and about 60% of those present said -- Sure, the committee should keep working on it. Most of the other 40% said in effect -- let's just keep the old definition currently in the PNG bylaws (yes -- there is one), start enforcing it, and move on.

Distinguished member Andy Lustig raised his hand & asked, "How will this definition be used?"

The answer given was: To throw out the PNG dealers who violate it. That's all the PNG can do in any case, as they are not a law maker nor a law enforecement agency.

As an aside: note that I wore a "Vote for Laura" button every day at the FUN show, and I wish her the best of luck with her candidacy.

MrEureka · January 16, 2012 4:20AM

Most of the other 40% said in effect -- let's just keep the old definition currently in the PNG bylaws (yes -- there is one)

Dave - I could be wrong, but on reading the bylaws and Code of Ethics, I found no definition of "coin doctoring". The closest I found was a rule against selling "counterfeit and altered" coins. My reading of "altered" is that it refers specifically to coins that have had mint marks and/or details added or removed, and that it does not cover run of the mill coin doctoring. Again, I could be wrong.

MrEureka · January 16, 2012 4:24AM

Here's the current PNG "Code of Ethics" to which members are bound.

PNG Code of Ethics
The Professional Numismatists Guild's Standard of Excellence

Professional Numismatists Guild membership standards are strict. One of the requirements is an agreement to adhere to the Code of Ethics. Each PNG member takes the following pledge:

1.
To furnish sound advice to my non-professional customers on numismatic matters to the best of my ability.
2.
To deliver coins that I sell promptly unless otherwise agreed between myself and my customer.
3.
To pay for coins I have purchased promptly unless otherwise agreed in writing between myself and my customer.
4.
To refrain from misrepresenting the prices, quality or guarantees attached to my merchandise or that of my competitors.
5.
To assist governmental authorities in investigating and prosecuting dealers in numismatic items when appropriate.
6.
To refrain from knowingly dealing in stolen numismatic items.
7.
To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customer.
8.
To grade coins accurately to the best of my ability and in accordance with recognized industry standards (or disclose fully my particular grading standards and how they may differ from recognized industry standards).
9.
To refrain from any of the following in dealing with non-professional customers:
(a) buying or selling at unreasonable prices;
(b) using high pressure sales techniques;
(c) using misleading performance data;
(d) comparing coins graded by a fringe grading service with those graded by an industry standard independent grading service in a way calculated to create an inaccurate impression;
(e) intentionally misrepresenting the origin, provenance or pedigree of a coin;
(f) intentionally misrepresenting the weight of a coin;
(g) intentionally misrepresenting the value of a coin.
(h) intentionally misrepresenting the investment potential of coins;
(i) intentionally misrepresenting an affiliation between myself and any Government agency.
10.
To make an oral or written disclosure to my retail customers that (a) the coin market is speculative and unregulated; (b) many areas of numismatics lend themselves to third-party grading and authentication; (c) certification does not eliminate all risks associated with the grading of coins; and (d) as a PNG member, I am obliged to arbitrate any dispute relating to the purchase, sale or trade of coins and numismatic items.
11.
To respect my contracts with all parties to numismatic transactions, whether written or oral.
12.
To respect my fellow members' contracts with third parties and not interfere with same.
13.
To freely exchange non-proprietary information with my fellow members when requested to do so.
14.
To refrain from intentionally defaming the character of a fellow member or the quality of that member's products or services for commercial advantage.
15.
To give evidence at PNG arbitrations upon request.
16.
To honor the provisions of PNG arbitration awards to which I am a party.
17.
If I am in the business of conducting public auctions of numismatic items, to abide by guidelines issued from time to time by the PNG Board.

CoinRaritiesOnline · January 16, 2012 4:32AM

This was what was mentioned in the meeting as the current definition:

"7. To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customer."

While it sounds overly simplistic to some (including to me), some at the meeting argued that the "altered & repaired" would cover coin doctoring as well, if it was enforced.

I voted to ask the committee to keep working on refining a better & more specific definition.

Again, it seemed to me that there was consensus from the PNG membership that "moving metal" (lasering, tooling, filing down rim bumps, plugging a hole without disclosure, etc.) was absolutely wrong. Where consensus broke down was in the "Gray Areas" -- much like it does here on the PCGS Boards when the topic comes up.

MrEureka · January 16, 2012 4:52AM

Another point raised at the meeting, this time by Mark Salzberg of NGC, was that (and I paraphrase) if there are rules against more subtle forms of coin doctoring, someone still has to make the call on whether or not the coin has been doctored. And to his way of thinking (which is probably correct in the vast majority of cases), rules wouldn't change things much, because it's still going to be up to the grading services to police the product and make the final judgment on each coin. What that means, in practice, is that if a doctor gets caught, the TPG will make the victim whole, and the TPG will have to go after the doctor for any possible recourse.

Of course, there's always the possibility that a major TPG will change its guaranty or exit the business completely. In that case, it would be best if the victims of coin doctoring had a second and more direct path to recourse against the doctors.

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