Would it be illegal for D.Carr to strike a gold Sacagawea? Or even in silver, like so many collectors were urging the Mint to do when the Sacs were being proposed?
(As my former father-in-law used to say, "you're thinking, again".
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Would it be illegal for D.Carr to strike a gold Sacagawea? Or even in silver, like so many collectors were urging the Mint to do when the Sacs were being proposed?
(As my former father-in-law used to say, "you're thinking, again". >>
If he could somehow legally obtain one of the genuine gold Sacagawea "patterns" to overstrike with a home-made set of, let's say, 2011-DC Sacagawea dies with the Thomas Rogers "Cheerios dollar" reverse, that would be one thing, on a legal par with his 1964-D dollars struck over genuine Peace dollars (whatever THAT legal status might be.)
Of course, the hobby would electronically beat the snot out of him for destroying one of the gold patterns.
IMHO, if he were to (hypothetically) make a set of dies of a legal tender coin design such as a regular issue Sacagawea dollar with any date or mint mark and strike them on blank disks of any metal, including gold, they would be counterfeits and he would be a counterfeiter.
What is your opinion?
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>IMHO, if he were to (hypothetically) make a set of dies of a legal tender coin design such as a regular issue Sacagawea dollar with any date or mint mark and strike them on blank disks of any metal, including gold, they would be counterfeits and he would be a counterfeiter. >>
So would anyone else. Your point? Other than the obvious, that is.
<< <i>IMHO, if he were to (hypothetically) make a set of dies of a legal tender coin design such as a regular issue Sacagawea dollar with any date or mint mark and strike them on blank disks of any metal, including gold, they would be counterfeits and he would be a counterfeiter. >>
So would anyone else. Your point? Other than the obvious, that is. >>
My point is that I was answering Jmski's question. What is your point?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
IMHO, if he were to (hypothetically) make a set of dies of a legal tender coin design such as a regular issue Sacagawea dollar with any date or mint mark and strike them on blank disks of any metal, including gold, they would be counterfeits and he would be a counterfeiter.
What is your opinion?
My opinion is that the legal status of such a coin has not yet been ajudicated, but that it would be a similar situation to the 1964-D Peace Dollar which, as we all know, does not exist.
My opinion is also that it would be a royal p-i-t-a to have it ajudicated and to have it turn out favorable to the maker of such a piece.
Tom, I can't claim to be the consumate numismatic historian or researcher of such matters, but from any of the examples that I have ever read about - all of the famous "coins" that have been struck illegally, or without authorization, or were spirited out of the Mint before being destroyed - hardly any of them were ever resolved in court.
Do collectors still collect most of these pieces? Yes. Is there still controversy over most of these "coins"? Yes. Do some of them eventually garner status as "real coins"? Yes
Unless and until "tax-cheat" Timmy Geithner has the audacity to prosecute D.Carr for counterfeiting and have him busted, I don't see there being a resolution to your liking. I do think that your insistance on calling this a criminal act could result in real injury to D.Carr and I do think that you should back off unless you feel strongly enough as a citizen to make a formal complaint to the Treasury yourself. I think that such a complaint would be unwarranted.
Here is what I see as the reality of it. D.Carr isn't producing counterfeit coinage to be passed off as real currency. His pieces do not represent a threat to the security of the country. If there were a real concern over counterfeiting, the real issue is the counterfeiting of US currency in the hundreds of billions by North Korea and China's negligence in failing to help curtail it.
As far as D.Carr's impact on the hobby, his fantasy pieces are not being presented to anyone as real coins, such as what the Chinese counterfeiters are doing en masse on ebay. If the Treasury Dept. has a problem with counterfeiting and the Hobby Act, they would be well-advised to focus on the real problems, including ebay and the Chinese counterfeiters that ebay helps to promote.
True? Not True?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Mr. Carr has determined there really is no 'Type 1' and 'Type 2', in regard to the High-Luster vs. Bulk Handled strikes. I, myself, firmly believed this WOULD be a 7 'coin' set, inclusive of the 'Type 1 & 2' (Type 1 being High Luster, Type 2 being Bulk Handled). PawPaul and I had this discussion in PM's (I'm sure he won't mind my saying it, as he asked Mr. Carr what HIS thoughts were in public because of it). Where Mr. Carr is the creator, his word is the last word, and he has stated there is no Type 1/Type 2. So, this is a 5 'coin' set, regardless of High Luster or Bulk Handled. As Mr. Carr stated, "take a High Luster, carry it around in your pocket, then you have the Bulk Handled". Real coin 'Types', like the T1/T2 Buffalo, as an example.....a Type 1 can't be made into a Type 2 simply by carrying it around in your pocket for a period of time.
Ok, here are all the fun ("questionable") items (every strike still remaining not on a legal-tender US coin). None of these are being released. Discuss amongst yourselves...
Cracked broad-strike on thin brass, rolled after strike, Die Pair 2:
All others from here on are Die Pair 6.
Broad-strike on 39mm brass blank: Broad-strike on 39mm sandblasted pure iron blank: Broad-strike on 39mm nickel-alloy blank: Large broad-strike on 39mm pure silver blank: Broad-strike on 34mm bronze US Denver Mint Lincoln medal: Broad-strike on 39mm sandblasted brass 1971 US Postal Service token: Broad-strike on 39mm antiqued bronze 2006 ANA Denver Coin Club medal: Broad-strike on 39mm pure copper blank, clashed dies, retained cud die break Multi-broad-strike over cud-less broad-strike on 39mm nickel-alloy blank, clashed dies, retained cud die break Cancelled-die broad-strike on 39mm pure copper blank: Cancelled-die broad-strike on 39mm pure copper blank, heat-toned: Cancelled-die broad-strike on 39mm pure copper blank, antiqued: Cancelled-die multi-broad-strike on 39mm pure copper blank: Cancelled-die broad-strike on 39mm nickel-alloy blank: Cancelled-die multi-broad-strike on 39mm nickel-alloy blank: Cancelled-die broad-strike on 39mm pure silver blank: Cancelled-die broad-strike on 36mm steel washer:
And here are a few cancelled-die strikes on legal-tender US coins:
Cancelled-die broad-strike on 1964-D Jefferson Nickel: Cancelled-die broad-strike on 1965 Washington Quarter: Cancelled-die broad-strike on 1974-D Eisenhower Dollar:
No fair Dan, you get all the fun! If only I had an ex Denver Mint press and some skill....but oh well. That broad-strike the 2006 ANA Denver Coin Club medal looks amazing!
Oops - forgot one. On the first one I did (before cancelling the dies), I should have oriented it so the old Peace-Head ANA logo was centered over the Liberty Head.
But I did manage to do it right after cancelling the dies:
<< <i>Can you imagine if you put your thumb in there? To see that date, impressed into the thumbnail....ahhhhhhh >>
One time a friend of mine was helping me mint a bunch of 39mm 1-oz silver rounds. He used my long rubber-tipped tongs to place blanks in the chamber, I'd push the buttons to stamp, and he would take the struck piece out (using the tongs again, of course).
It was 1:00AM, and we had about 500 more pieces to go. We had a good rythm going - until he decided he needed to reposition the blank after I had alread pushed the buttons. The dies came together at full force with one tip of the tongs (and a silver blank) between them. A small whisp of smoke could be seen coming out. When I retracted the upper die, we could see that the thick rubber coating had been completely vaporized. The steel tong tip caused a massive strike-through. The lady's face (mouth, nose, eye) was perfectly struck on the tong tip. The obverse die picked up some marks from the gripping ridges on the tong tip. I was able to repair the die and we finished the run later that night.
And the very last strike I attempted with the "1964-D" Peace Dollar dies was on one of those 38mm blue plastic discs that say "Uncirculated Eisenhower Silver Dollar" that are found in the blue-pack Ike dollars. I heard a very loud "snap!" and little bits of blue plastic flew everywhere.
Presses are very dangerous. At the Denver Mint's gift shop back in the early 80's they had a small press set up where tourists could buy a blank bronze planchet and place it in a press. Only after the attendent closed a safety gate was the tourist allowed to press the switch that struck his medal.
I stood back and watched, and noticed that the attendent had a dead man switch on the floor. Until he hit it with his foot, the switch in the tourist's hand did not work. I talked to him when there was a lull, and he said that it had sometimes come in handy.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
(As my former father-in-law used to say, "you're thinking, again".
I knew it would happen.
Boggs was never convicted. Except for meth.
<< <i>Would it be illegal for D.Carr to strike a gold Sacagawea? Or even in silver, like so many collectors were urging the Mint to do when the Sacs were being proposed?
(As my former father-in-law used to say, "you're thinking, again".
If he could somehow legally obtain one of the genuine gold Sacagawea "patterns" to overstrike with a home-made set of, let's say, 2011-DC Sacagawea dies with the Thomas Rogers "Cheerios dollar" reverse, that would be one thing, on a legal par with his 1964-D dollars struck over genuine Peace dollars (whatever THAT legal status might be.)
Of course, the hobby would electronically beat the snot out of him for destroying one of the gold patterns.
IMHO, if he were to (hypothetically) make a set of dies of a legal tender coin design such as a regular issue Sacagawea dollar with any date or mint mark and strike them on blank disks of any metal, including gold, they would be counterfeits and he would be a counterfeiter.
What is your opinion?
TD
<< <i>IMHO, if he were to (hypothetically) make a set of dies of a legal tender coin design such as a regular issue Sacagawea dollar with any date or mint mark and strike them on blank disks of any metal, including gold, they would be counterfeits and he would be a counterfeiter. >>
So would anyone else. Your point? Other than the obvious, that is.
<< <i>
<< <i>IMHO, if he were to (hypothetically) make a set of dies of a legal tender coin design such as a regular issue Sacagawea dollar with any date or mint mark and strike them on blank disks of any metal, including gold, they would be counterfeits and he would be a counterfeiter. >>
So would anyone else. Your point? Other than the obvious, that is. >>
My point is that I was answering Jmski's question.
What is your point?
What is your opinion?
My opinion is that the legal status of such a coin has not yet been ajudicated, but that it would be a similar situation to the 1964-D Peace Dollar which, as we all know, does not exist.
My opinion is also that it would be a royal p-i-t-a to have it ajudicated and to have it turn out favorable to the maker of such a piece.
Tom, I can't claim to be the consumate numismatic historian or researcher of such matters, but from any of the examples that I have ever read about - all of the famous "coins" that have been struck illegally, or without authorization, or were spirited out of the Mint before being destroyed - hardly any of them were ever resolved in court.
Do collectors still collect most of these pieces? Yes. Is there still controversy over most of these "coins"? Yes. Do some of them eventually garner status as "real coins"? Yes
Unless and until "tax-cheat" Timmy Geithner has the audacity to prosecute D.Carr for counterfeiting and have him busted, I don't see there being a resolution to your liking. I do think that your insistance on calling this a criminal act could result in real injury to D.Carr and I do think that you should back off unless you feel strongly enough as a citizen to make a formal complaint to the Treasury yourself. I think that such a complaint would be unwarranted.
Here is what I see as the reality of it. D.Carr isn't producing counterfeit coinage to be passed off as real currency. His pieces do not represent a threat to the security of the country. If there were a real concern over counterfeiting, the real issue is the counterfeiting of US currency in the hundreds of billions by North Korea and China's negligence in failing to help curtail it.
As far as D.Carr's impact on the hobby, his fantasy pieces are not being presented to anyone as real coins, such as what the Chinese counterfeiters are doing en masse on ebay. If the Treasury Dept. has a problem with counterfeiting and the Hobby Act, they would be well-advised to focus on the real problems, including ebay and the Chinese counterfeiters that ebay helps to promote.
True? Not True?
I knew it would happen.
..you will get no argument from me
<< <i>
<< <i>Ok, Dan makes it offical,,,,,, 5 types of the 1964-D Peace Dollar. As I understand it they are as follows:
Type #1 = Die Pair #5 Subdued Luster Original "D" and reverse die,,,, 222 pcs struck,,,,, 200 released
Type #2 = Die Pair #5 High Luster Original "D" and reverse die,,,, 789 pcs struck,,,,, 700 released (High Grade 589 / Bag Handled 200)
Type #3 = Die Pair #6 Uncirculated Finish & new reverse die,,,, 542 pcs struck,,,,, 450 released (High Grade 379 / Bag Handled 163)
Type #4 = Die Pair #6 Proof Like Finish & new reverse die,,,, 183 pcs struck,,,,, 128 released
Type #5 = Die Pair #6 Matte Proof Finish & new reverse die,,,, 149 pcs struck,,,,, 132 released
........the more precise - all the better
Well, just Love coins, period.
First, get a bag. Fill it with coins.
Then add one or more of these.
This never gets old. So to speak.
<< <i>How to make bag handled coins:
First, get a bag. Fill it with coins.
Then add one or more of these.
This never gets old. So to speak. >>
if I may say .....that is the most scary coin ever minted
None of these are being released. Discuss amongst yourselves...
Cracked broad-strike on thin brass, rolled after strike, Die Pair 2:
All others from here on are Die Pair 6.
Broad-strike on 39mm brass blank:
Broad-strike on 39mm sandblasted pure iron blank:
Broad-strike on 39mm nickel-alloy blank:
Large broad-strike on 39mm pure silver blank:
Broad-strike on 34mm bronze US Denver Mint Lincoln medal:
Broad-strike on 39mm sandblasted brass 1971 US Postal Service token:
Broad-strike on 39mm antiqued bronze 2006 ANA Denver Coin Club medal:
Broad-strike on 39mm pure copper blank, clashed dies, retained cud die break
Multi-broad-strike over cud-less broad-strike on 39mm nickel-alloy blank, clashed dies, retained cud die break
Cancelled-die broad-strike on 39mm pure copper blank:
Cancelled-die broad-strike on 39mm pure copper blank, heat-toned:
Cancelled-die broad-strike on 39mm pure copper blank, antiqued:
Cancelled-die multi-broad-strike on 39mm pure copper blank:
Cancelled-die broad-strike on 39mm nickel-alloy blank:
Cancelled-die multi-broad-strike on 39mm nickel-alloy blank:
Cancelled-die broad-strike on 39mm pure silver blank:
Cancelled-die broad-strike on 36mm steel washer:
And here are a few cancelled-die strikes on legal-tender US coins:
Cancelled-die broad-strike on 1964-D Jefferson Nickel:
Cancelled-die broad-strike on 1965 Washington Quarter:
Cancelled-die broad-strike on 1974-D Eisenhower Dollar:
I think it's fascinating!
On the first one I did (before cancelling the dies), I should have oriented it so the old Peace-Head ANA logo was centered over the Liberty Head.
But I did manage to do it right after cancelling the dies:
<< <i>WOW! How cool is this:
I think it's fascinating!
Yes, that one has the ANA Peace Dollar obverse portrait overstruck on the reverse.
How Cool are those.
Thanks for sharing.
<< <i>Can you imagine if you put your thumb in there? To see that date, impressed into the thumbnail....ahhhhhhh >>
One time a friend of mine was helping me mint a bunch of 39mm 1-oz silver rounds.
He used my long rubber-tipped tongs to place blanks in the chamber, I'd push the buttons
to stamp, and he would take the struck piece out (using the tongs again, of course).
It was 1:00AM, and we had about 500 more pieces to go. We had a good rythm going -
until he decided he needed to reposition the blank after I had alread pushed the buttons.
The dies came together at full force with one tip of the tongs (and a silver blank) between them.
A small whisp of smoke could be seen coming out. When I retracted the upper die, we could
see that the thick rubber coating had been completely vaporized. The steel tong tip
caused a massive strike-through. The lady's face (mouth, nose, eye) was perfectly struck
on the tong tip. The obverse die picked up some marks from the gripping ridges on the tong
tip. I was able to repair the die and we finished the run later that night.
that say "Uncirculated Eisenhower Silver Dollar" that are found in the blue-pack Ike dollars.
I heard a very loud "snap!" and little bits of blue plastic flew everywhere.
I stood back and watched, and noticed that the attendent had a dead man switch on the floor. Until he hit it with his foot, the switch in the tourist's hand did not work. I talked to him when there was a lull, and he said that it had sometimes come in handy.
TD