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Newp $5 Indian gold - is it authentic? 10/28 PCGS UPDATE
Meltdown
Posts: 8,689 ✭✭✭✭✭
I know these are or were heavily counterfeited. Does this one look right?
I've had a couple different opinions on it already and one key piece of information I learned
is that the necklace detail in toward the back of the neck & headdress are often very flat or
without detail on a counterfeit piece... mine appears to be very well detailed in that area.
Can anyone else chime in on what to look for with a fake and/or give me their opinion on this piece?
Thank you!
UPDATE... Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade
1 1 18453348 8514 1909-D $5 US AU58
I've had a couple different opinions on it already and one key piece of information I learned
is that the necklace detail in toward the back of the neck & headdress are often very flat or
without detail on a counterfeit piece... mine appears to be very well detailed in that area.
Can anyone else chime in on what to look for with a fake and/or give me their opinion on this piece?
Thank you!
UPDATE... Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade
1 1 18453348 8514 1909-D $5 US AU58
0
Comments
TD
No detail in the hair ribbon tie thingy.
For being so "uncirculated" I really think some detail is missing.
bob
As for the Mint State claim, very few of the coins of this type are really "Mint State." The design picked a rub very easily.
In hand it could be a completely different story..
<< <i>I'd be wary on this one. Note the truncated point of the star to the right of date.
No detail in the hair ribbon tie thingy.
For being so "uncirculated" I really think some detail is missing.
bob >>
OK, interesting. Is that a known diagnostic for spotting a fake or does it just
appear different to you? I'll do some image googling and see if I can find a slabbed example
to compare with...
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
(My images are to the right)
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Here is a strict PCGS MS-64. It's a different date but the same type. Note the additional detail on the high points that is missing from the piece that started the thread. I see the some thing on the coin that meltdown posted.
The things I don’t always agree with are always worth considering.
The differences I am seeing are very subtle. I understand that there are some very good counterfeits out there.
My images are a bit lacking from the overall appearance of the piece in hand... no question about it.
Maybe I'll bring this topic back to the top when the coin comes back in a slab... or not in a slab.
Thanks for all the insight, information and speculation!
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
<< <i>I guess there's only one way to know for sure... I'll send it to PCGS.
The differences I am seeing are very subtle. I understand that there are some very good counterfeits out there.
My images are a bit lacking from the overall appearance of the piece in hand... no question about it.
Maybe I'll bring this topic back to the top when the coin comes back in a slab... or not in a slab.
Thanks for all the insight, information and speculation! >>
There are plenty of other ways to know - show the coin to a knowledgeable collector or dealer in person.
I've been dinged by one counterfeit (though the dealer bought it back), but I've also gotten another coin sold to me as an AU that looked pretty crisp and sharp, that graded MS61.
<< <i>Can anyone else chime in on what to look for with a fake and/or give me their opinion on this piece?
Thank you! >>
The coin on the right passed the test at PCGS, but it still doesn't do much to verify whether the coin on the left will.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
If it is fake, it's a good one. I think it's real from those pics.
-wes
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
I had a forum member send me a $10 Indian for purchase and what caught my eye besides a few errant blobs of raised metal (ie tool marks), was the total lack of die polish lines anywhere on the coin. Usually you'll find them hidden inside or close to the peripharal lettering, date digits, figures, etc. The luster on counterfeits is often a bit lackluster and very even unlike the flowing and swirling radiating luster you see on genuine US unc coins.
roadrunner
<< <i>I don't think it is genuine, sorry. >>
Not one of yours, is it???
Or take it to a good B&M and get a learned opinion.
TD
Edited to add:
Obtaining legal advice, cut-rate surgery and coin authentication via pictures are three things you should probably not attempt over the internet...
Lately I have not even bought raw, just slabbed.
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't think it is genuine, sorry. >>
Not one of yours, is it???
>>
I have a proof 1929 that Dan made and it is clearly marked "copy" on the back.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
<< <i>All of the known counterfeit diagnostics for 1909-D $5 Indians are shown in Bil Fivaz' "United States Gold Counterfeit Detection Guide". I don't see any of those on your coin, based on the images pesented. Why not invest in a copy? It's cheap insurance. >>
A couple board members here were kind enough to send me diagnostics from that very book.
I suppose I should probably get myself a copy since I like the idea of numismatic bullion for my long term stacking.
So far, I have only purchased two $5 indians but I like them and plan to purchase more.
Again, thanks to eveyone who has contributed to this discussion.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
<< <i>All of the known counterfeit diagnostics for 1909-D $5 Indians are shown in Bil Fivaz' "United States Gold Counterfeit Detection Guide". >>
I like Bill's book and have a copy but it only shows some of the counterfeits for this date. Also, new counterfeits have been produced since this book was written. You are better off learning the diagnostics of authentic coins since there will always be new counterfeits being produced.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>after reading this thread, it is waayyy too risky to buy raw gold coins and much better to spend the extra money to get a slabbed one. >>
And for a common date like the 1909-D $5 in AU condition or so, you likely don't have to spend any extra money to get a slabbed one if you shop around.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade
1 1 18453348 8514 1909-D $5 US AU58
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
Got part of it right and glad I was off on the other part!
bob
<< <i>Here's the PCGS grade! I am very happy!
Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade
1 1 18453348 8514 1909-D $5 US AU58 >>
Told you so!
<< <i>
<< <i>Here's the PCGS grade! I am very happy!
Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade
1 1 18453348 8514 1909-D $5 US AU58 >>
Told you so!
>>
Yep, you called it.
Here's the other Indian I sent in along with the 1909. It graded VF30.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.