Newp $5 Indian gold - is it authentic? 10/28 PCGS UPDATE

Meltdown

I know these are or were heavily counterfeited. Does this one look right?
I've had a couple different opinions on it already and one key piece of information I learned
is that the necklace detail in toward the back of the neck & headdress are often very flat or
without detail on a counterfeit piece... mine appears to be very well detailed in that area.
Can anyone else chime in on what to look for with a fake and/or give me their opinion on this piece?
Thank you!

UPDATE... Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade
1 1 18453348 8514 1909-D $5 US AU58

CaptHenway

Looks good from the pictures.
TD

Jesh

Looks good to me. Necklace is nice even in this size image.

AUandAG

I'd be wary on this one. Note the truncated point of the star to the right of date.
No detail in the hair ribbon tie thingy.
For being so "uncirculated" I really think some detail is missing.

bob

TwoSides2aCoin

With respect to that "clogged" mint mark and the color, I agree with Mr Delorey.

BillJones

I have doubts about it. There is detail lacking on the highest points and there are lumps at the right of the area on the neck between the last feather in the headdress and the plumb to the right of the face.

As for the Mint State claim, very few of the coins of this type are really "Mint State." The design picked a rub very easily.

PTVETTER

I think it is good and it may be unc. just judging form the photo.

In hand it could be a completely different story..

Meltdown

<< <i>I'd be wary on this one. Note the truncated point of the star to the right of date.
No detail in the hair ribbon tie thingy.
For being so "uncirculated" I really think some detail is missing.

bob >>



OK, interesting. Is that a known diagnostic for spotting a fake or does it just
appear different to you? I'll do some image googling and see if I can find a slabbed example
to compare with...

Meltdown

Here's an obverse image of a PCGS MS63 for comparison.
(My images are to the right)

PerryHall

Looks good from the pics but there are really good fakes from this series and they need to be authenticated in hand.

BillJones

The relief on this coin looks low and "tired" to me. I remember seeing a fake at a Bay State shows years ago. If you had photographed it, the picture might have looked pretty good, but in person the relief in the details to was too low and all wrong. I can't say from sure from the picture if this coin is bad, but I'm suspicious.

Here is a strict PCGS MS-64. It's a different date but the same type. Note the additional detail on the high points that is missing from the piece that started the thread. I see the some thing on the coin that meltdown posted.

derryb

MHO - the real McCoy and MS61

Meltdown

I guess there's only one way to know for sure... I'll send it to PCGS.

The differences I am seeing are very subtle. I understand that there are some very good counterfeits out there.
My images are a bit lacking from the overall appearance of the piece in hand... no question about it.
Maybe I'll bring this topic back to the top when the coin comes back in a slab... or not in a slab.

Thanks for all the insight, information and speculation!

coinguy1

<< <i>I guess there's only one way to know for sure... I'll send it to PCGS.

The differences I am seeing are very subtle. I understand that there are some very good counterfeits out there.
My images are a bit lacking from the overall appearance of the piece in hand... no question about it.
Maybe I'll bring this topic back to the top when the coin comes back in a slab... or not in a slab.

Thanks for all the insight, information and speculation! >>

There are plenty of other ways to know - show the coin to a knowledgeable collector or dealer in person.

dcarr

I don't think it is genuine, sorry.

ranshdow

I don't know the series but that one looks genuine to me.

scottgardener

I send all my Indian $2.50s and $5s for grading, in part because of the high incidence of counterfeiting, and because they are hard to eyeball grade.

I've been dinged by one counterfeit (though the dealer bought it back), but I've also gotten another coin sold to me as an AU that looked pretty crisp and sharp, that graded MS61.

notwilight

The coin looks too good to determine authenticity from a photograph. The issues people are having with it could easily be photographic in nature. I would have an expert look at it before the P in NEWP. --Jerry

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>Can anyone else chime in on what to look for with a fake and/or give me their opinion on this piece?
Thank you! >>




The coin on the right passed the test at PCGS, but it still doesn't do much to verify whether the coin on the left will.

Meltdown

The one obvious thing I've noticed on the graded photo's I've recently seen is the obverse lower right star and the upper left stars are often missing the end points near the edge. I wonder if that's a striking issue or a counterfeit pickup point.

coinman420

i don`t know if this will help but here are pics of one i bought raw on ebay. i never had it graded but believe it is authentic.

guitarwes

If it is fake, it's a good one. I think it's real from those pics.

-wes

roadrunner

Check closely for tiny die polish lines or die cracks. Those kinds of minute details are often lacking in counterfeits. The more you find the better. This coin looks AU58 to me so some of that headress and ribbon flatness is from actual wear.

I had a forum member send me a $10 Indian for purchase and what caught my eye besides a few errant blobs of raised metal (ie tool marks), was the total lack of die polish lines anywhere on the coin. Usually you'll find them hidden inside or close to the peripharal lettering, date digits, figures, etc. The luster on counterfeits is often a bit lackluster and very even unlike the flowing and swirling radiating luster you see on genuine US unc coins.

roadrunner

CaptHenway

<< <i>I don't think it is genuine, sorry. >>



Not one of yours, is it???

CaptHenway

Pay to have it authenticated. Then you'll know.
Or take it to a good B&M and get a learned opinion.
TD

Edited to add:

Obtaining legal advice, cut-rate surgery and coin authentication via pictures are three things you should probably not attempt over the internet...

Hyperion

this whole thread just underlines the necessity for me to snag a GEM UNC $5 for my box of 10, sometime before I die.

nutmeg

The small Indians are most difficult to grade/authenticate. I bought a fake 1925-D two and a half once and dealer took it back. Every 5 dollar and 2.5 dollar I buy raw goes out for slabbing. Cheap insurance.
Lately I have not even bought raw, just slabbed.

SCDHunter

<< <i>

<< <i>I don't think it is genuine, sorry. >>



Not one of yours, is it???



>>



I have a proof 1929 that Dan made and it is clearly marked "copy" on the back.

darktone

I don't like the color of it. The color contrasts between the fields and the design make me say fake.

veryfine

The luster and color on this type can be tricky. Examples in high circulated grades, such as AU-58, can still be dull or lackluster.

TwoSides2aCoin

Now you know why I use PCGS' services.

ricko

Darn, now I have to go pull mine out and check it over... had no doubts when I purchased it years ago, just need to reaffirm my decision. Cheers, RickO

coindeuce

All of the known counterfeit diagnostics for 1909-D $5 Indians are shown in Bil Fivaz' "United States Gold Counterfeit Detection Guide". I don't see any of those on your coin, based on the images pesented. Why not invest in a copy? It's cheap insurance.

Meltdown

<< <i>All of the known counterfeit diagnostics for 1909-D $5 Indians are shown in Bil Fivaz' "United States Gold Counterfeit Detection Guide". I don't see any of those on your coin, based on the images pesented. Why not invest in a copy? It's cheap insurance. >>



A couple board members here were kind enough to send me diagnostics from that very book.
I suppose I should probably get myself a copy since I like the idea of numismatic bullion for my long term stacking.
So far, I have only purchased two $5 indians but I like them and plan to purchase more.

Again, thanks to eveyone who has contributed to this discussion.

PerryHall

<< <i>All of the known counterfeit diagnostics for 1909-D $5 Indians are shown in Bil Fivaz' "United States Gold Counterfeit Detection Guide". >>



I like Bill's book and have a copy but it only shows some of the counterfeits for this date. Also, new counterfeits have been produced since this book was written. You are better off learning the diagnostics of authentic coins since there will always be new counterfeits being produced.

mkman123

after reading this thread, it is waayyy too risky to buy raw gold coins and much better to spend the extra money to get a slabbed one.

illini420

<< <i>after reading this thread, it is waayyy too risky to buy raw gold coins and much better to spend the extra money to get a slabbed one. >>



And for a common date like the 1909-D $5 in AU condition or so, you likely don't have to spend any extra money to get a slabbed one if you shop around.

MrEureka

Authentic and should grade 62 or 63.

TennesseeDave

I do not know this series at all,but in the side by side pics the OP's coin looks like the tassles(or whatever it is called)that hang below the Indians ear and down across the necklace looks completely different.

Meltdown

Here's the PCGS grade! I am very happy!

Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade
1 1 18453348 8514 1909-D $5 US AU58

darktone

Glad to hear it graded.

AUandAG

Glad as well....I did say not uncirculated but wondered if it was real.

Got part of it right and glad I was off on the other part!

bob

CaptHenway

<< <i>Here's the PCGS grade! I am very happy!

Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade
1 1 18453348 8514 1909-D $5 US AU58 >>



Told you so!

Meltdown

<< <i>

<< <i>Here's the PCGS grade! I am very happy!

Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade
1 1 18453348 8514 1909-D $5 US AU58 >>



Told you so!
>>




Yep, you called it.
Here's the other Indian I sent in along with the 1909. It graded VF30.

ricko

Good grade and nice Indians... Reviewing mine, I am sure it is authentic as well... Cheers, RickO