<< <i>Daniel could easily make these 1964-D's legal by stamping them with the word "COPY." I cannot understand why he is so adamant against doing so. >>
I don't think this is that complicated. He explained that, based on his research, they are legal without them. >>
I think I'll start making and selling unmarked 1870-S quarters. After all, there are none known. though a certain government document says that at least one was struck.
How about 1873-S Seated Dollars? The Mint Report says that some were struck, though none have ever surfaced.
And how 'bout we strike some.............?
Where does it end?
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
THAT's the kind of stuff he should be making, totally original art!!!
Leave the Old Masters alone.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Daniel could easily make these 1964-D's legal by stamping them with the word "COPY." I cannot understand why he is so adamant against doing so. >>
I don't think this is that complicated. He explained that, based on his research, they are legal without them. >>
I think I'll start making and selling unmarked 1870-S quarters. After all, there are none known. though a certain government document says that at least one was struck.
How about 1873-S Seated Dollars? The Mint Report says that some were struck, though none have ever surfaced.
And how 'bout we strike some.............? >>
Were those issues monetized and released to the public? Were those specimens destroyed? The 1964 Peace dollars were never released and were all destroyed, according to the best available official records. Do the other coins you mention qualify?
<< <i>Daniel could easily make these 1964-D's legal by stamping them with the word "COPY." I cannot understand why he is so adamant against doing so. >>
I don't think this is that complicated. He explained that, based on his research, they are legal without them. >>
I think I'll start making and selling unmarked 1870-S quarters. After all, there are none known. though a certain government document says that at least one was struck.
How about 1873-S Seated Dollars? The Mint Report says that some were struck, though none have ever surfaced.
(Silly irrelevant geographical question....on that map of North America, where does North America end and South America begin? The Darien Gap?
Are any of the islands, such as Cuba, part of either continent?
What about Greenland?)
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Daniel could easily make these 1964-D's legal by stamping them with the word "COPY." I cannot understand why he is so adamant against doing so. >>
I don't think this is that complicated. He explained that, based on his research, they are legal without them. >>
I think I'll start making and selling unmarked 1870-S quarters. After all, there are none known. though a certain government document says that at least one was struck.
How about 1873-S Seated Dollars? The Mint Report says that some were struck, though none have ever surfaced.
And how 'bout we strike some.............? >>
Were those issues monetized and released to the public? Were those specimens ordered to be destroyed? The 1964 Peace dollars were never released and were all destroyed, according to the best available official records. Do the other coins you mention qualify? >>
What difference would that make? The point is, that each of the coins mentioned could exist. But even if they couldn't, the potential for fraud is great and it's being made easier to perpetrate, while it could have been made far more difficult.
<< <i>(Silly irrelevant geographical question....on that map of North America, where does North America end and South America begin? The Darien Gap?
Are any of the islands, such as Cuba, part of either continent?
What about Greenland?) >>
North America (NAFTA) is the focal point on the coin..............South America and Greenland are irrelavant from a design impact focal point. I actually love the way he faded So America out. It would have not been symmetrical otherwise. As far as the Peace 64-D Peace dollar goes--------------It's not easy as a designer to copy and execute properly. I know that sounds bizarre but it's that way for me. I'm a designer and I struggle if a client wants me to copy something. Especially a classic well known design. It much easier for me to work from a blank canvas. JMHO.
I love D Carr's work and I bought a few of these Peace Fantasy pieces. I simply think they will be cool. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>....It's not easy as a designer to copy and execute properly. I know that sounds bizarre but it's that way for me. I'm a designer and I struggle if a client wants me to copy something. Especially a classic well known design. It much easier for me to work from a blank canvas. JMHO. MJ >>
Well, I have encountered the same thing. I used to be paid quite well to create or recreate the well known and accepted "masterpieces" with period correct materials. When copying Starry Night or a Rembrandt (even with the original background before his messes darkened from cheapo materials and glass) there was a very firm, if not accurate, expectation to be met. I'd rather copy Schiele or Klimt or Homer.
Edited to add - I do not like the coin above at all. Poor design and not attractive Obverse. She needs ear rings? Of ALL the things he could be making with a medal or coin press, I dunno. This new design seems so close to an extant coin and design.
<< <i>Daniel could easily make these 1964-D's legal by stamping them with the word "COPY." I cannot understand why he is so adamant against doing so. >>
I don't think this is that complicated. He explained that, based on his research, they are legal without them. >>
I think I'll start making and selling unmarked 1870-S quarters. After all, there are none known. though a certain government document says that at least one was struck.
How about 1873-S Seated Dollars? The Mint Report says that some were struck, though none have ever surfaced.
And how 'bout we strike some.............? >>
Were those issues monetized and released to the public? Were those specimens ordered to be destroyed? The 1964 Peace dollars were never released and were all destroyed, according to the best available official records. Do the other coins you mention qualify? >>
What difference would that make? The point is, that each of the coins mentioned could exist. But even if they couldn't, the potential for fraud is great and it's being made easier to perpetrate, while it could have been made far more difficult. >>
I think the potential for fraud is mitigated because any real ones would be illegally owned and should be surrendered to be destroyed. Do you defend possession of real ones, if any exist?
I am still puzzled by the handful of people that are so vehement that this is ok to do. You want one, fine, buy one, but refusing to understand the potential for fraud or issues with it and arguing more than DC himself for the issue, just cheapens everything and makes me really wonder about the person.
The folks that have said they wanted one because of X, Y, or Z, and left it at that.....I understand. The few that have something stuck in their craw and try to compare it to other issues that have been slabbed or other ways to try to weasel out of understanding responsibility, really do confuse me.
For many years 1933 $20's were legally owned. Then it became illegal to own them. Soon, if the courts ever get off their duffs, it may be legal to own them again.
Back in the 1970's, I noticed a comment in the Fifth Edition of the Judd pattern book that said that patterns after 1916 were illegal to own.
Curious, I wrote to the U.S. Treasury Dept. and asked them why patterns after 1916 were illegal to own. Somebody wrote back and sent me a copy of the page from the Judd book and said in effect that the patterns after 1916 were illegal to own because this book says they are.
I forwarded a copy of the letter to Abe Kosoff, and he changed the comment in the Sixth Edition. By the Treasury Dept's logic, this apparently made them now legal to own.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Daniel could easily make these 1964-D's legal by stamping them with the word "COPY." I cannot understand why he is so adamant against doing so. >>
I don't think this is that complicated. He explained that, based on his research, they are legal without them. >>
I think I'll start making and selling unmarked 1870-S quarters. After all, there are none known. though a certain government document says that at least one was struck.
How about 1873-S Seated Dollars? The Mint Report says that some were struck, though none have ever surfaced.
And how 'bout we strike some.............? >>
Were those issues monetized and released to the public? Were those specimens ordered to be destroyed? The 1964 Peace dollars were never released and were all destroyed, according to the best available official records. Do the other coins you mention qualify? >>
What difference would that make? The point is, that each of the coins mentioned could exist. But even if they couldn't, the potential for fraud is great and it's being made easier to perpetrate, while it could have been made far more difficult. >>
I think the potential for fraud is mitigated because any real ones would be illegally owned and should be surrendered to be destroyed. Do you defend possession of real ones, if any exist? >>
Whatever the extent of that mitigation, it pales in comparison to what adding the word "COPY" would achieve. From the little bit I have read about the circumstances surrounding the genuine ones, I think a fair argument could be made that they should be legal to own.
I for one would have never even considered buying one if it werent for reading this thread and getting all hopped up over it .......
I will not deny that the potential for fraud is real - but the coin I am buying is for possible legitimate profit potential ; I hope to get mine slabbed by PCGS .
The controversy is very heated - I agree he probably shouldn't have made them without "copy" somewhere on it .......but he did make them and so far I see my right to buy one protected
under the law. If they are deemed illegal to own ( that would be so cool, F.B.I. at my door , twisting my arm and threatening jail time if I didn't turn it over )
..I would surrender it in a heartbeat .
I am probably full of it here ; but I want one
and to be completely honest - I would have little interest if any , if the coin were stamped "copy"
Let me fantasize along with the creator , and let me hold my 1964-D Peace Dollar : without feeling guilty that I'm doing something unethical or wrong
Back in 1974 or so I saw an article in the Detroit Free Press about a family feud over a coin. A man had bought a house, and his brother and niece were helping him clean up the property. The niece found a coin in the trash pit out back and gave it to her uncle. He said he would try to find out what it was worth, and split the money with her.
It was a very common Blake & Co. $20 replica, which Chrysler had given away in huge quantities as part of a promotion for the Plymouth "Gold Duster." Rather than take it to a coin shop, the uncle showed it to some people at a local diner. One of those non-numismatic people told him that it was a very rare coin worth a lot of money.
Based on this totally bogus "appraisal," the uncle declared that since the coin was found on his property he was going to keep it for himself. After harsh words were exchanged, his brother sued him on behalf of his daughter. Various family members took one side or the other. The lawyers for both sides ran up fees.
I called the reporter listed in the paper and told him that the coin was a worthless copy. He said that somebody had already told the family this, but that both sides wanted to go to trial because they had already spent so much money on the case. I never heard how it came out.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
RK. He said he sold 100 through this afternoon. He's struck 200 go far. He is shipping now. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
counterfeit 1) adj. describing a document, particularly money, which is forged or created to look real and intended to pass for real. 2) v. to criminally forge or print a false copy of money, bonds, or other valuable documents, intending to profit from the falsity. 3) n. shorthand for phoney money passed for real.
See also: forgery utter
forgery n. 1) the crime of creating a false document, altering a document, or writing a false signature for the illegal benefit of the person making the forgery. This includes improperly filling in a blank document, like an automobile purchase contract, over a buyer's signature, with the terms different from those agreed. It does not include such innocent representation as a staff member autographing photos of politicians or movie stars. While similar to forgery, counterfeiting refers to the creation of phoney money, stock certificates or bonds which are negotiable for cash. 2) a document or signature falsely created or altered.
Just by reading the number of responses to this thread and the arguments both for or against the issue it's reasonable to assume that someone will eventually claim damages of some sort over the "coin"?
It doesn't matter if the complaint (civil or criminal) against the manufacturer has any real merit the defense to a frivolous complaint will be expensive. We live in a litigant society and while anyone, anywhere can be sued for almost anything why invite legal trouble?
"423 posts in a day and a half... Somebody please summarize this thread for me."
There's probably like 5-10 people here who care enough to post 50 times each, rehashing and embellishing the "crimes" of D. Carr, complete with legal definitions and jail sentence conjectures. I would imagine someone of his talent and intellect has had profound discussions regarding the legal ramifications of producing such a coin long before he started cranking them off.
While I can see both sides (for and against) him putting out a 1964-d Peacer Dollar without "copy" stamped on it, in the end I just think it is a cool replica that has been given too much thought.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
<< <i>I am still puzzled by the handful of people that are so vehement that this is ok to do. You want one, fine, buy one, but refusing to understand the potential for fraud or issues with it and arguing more than DC himself for the issue, just cheapens everything and makes me really wonder about the person.
The folks that have said they wanted one because of X, Y, or Z, and left it at that.....I understand. The few that have something stuck in their craw and try to compare it to other issues that have been slabbed or other ways to try to weasel out of understanding responsibility, really do confuse me. >>
Rhetorical question- If somebody in China bought a few rolls of Peace dollars, used them to make a similar item and listed them for sale on their website, how much differently might this thread have turned out?
Okay, I have not bothered to read ALL of the posts, but enough to get the gist. The vehemence seems pretty loaded against Dan. While stopping short of saying it's silly, I would say that I think you "Anti-" clan are taking a legitimate issue (counterfeiting) and choosing the wrong example to get all worked up about. I see Dan's newest creation as a work of art. Of COURSE someone down the road is going to try to pawn it off as real, but I seriously doubt anyone here is buying this except for what it is--a piece of art that is beautiful, interesting, and significant historically. Putting "copy" on this would seriously undermine its artistic beauty. Imitators abound in any artistic field, but that doesn't make them counterfeiters and to imply Dan is doing something unethical is, well, ridiculous.
<< <i>Okay, I have not bothered to read ALL of the posts, but enough to get the gist. The vehemence seems pretty loaded against Dan. While stopping short of saying it's silly, I would say that I think you "Anti-" clan are taking a legitimate issue (counterfeiting) and choosing the wrong example to get all worked up about. I see Dan's newest creation as a work of art. Of COURSE someone down the road is going to try to pawn it off as real, but I seriously doubt anyone here is buying this except for what it is--a piece of art that is beautiful, interesting, and significant historically. Putting "copy" on this would seriously undermine its artistic beauty. Imitators abound in any artistic field, but that doesn't make them counterfeiters and to imply Dan is doing something unethical is, well, ridiculous. >>
Further, I voted with my purchase of $115.00 [$110 +$5 shipping]
Cheers!
Kirk
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>"423 posts in a day and a half... Somebody please summarize this thread for me."
There's probably like 5-10 people here who care enough to post 50 times each, rehashing and embellishing the "crimes" of D. Carr, complete with legal definitions and jail sentence conjectures. I would imagine someone of his talent and intellect has had profound discussions regarding the legal ramifications of producing such a coin long before he started cranking them off.
While I can see both sides (for and against) him putting out a 1964-d Peacer Dollar without "copy" stamped on it, in the end I just think it is a cool replica that has been given too much thought. >>
I'm not going to count how many times any poster has replied to this thread. But, based on the total number of replies, I can tell you that neither 8 nor 9 nor 10 people have posted 50 times each. In fact, perhaps, none at all have reached that number, or even close to it. And I believe that some of your other summary information is exaggerated and/or incorrect, as well. Why not try to make your point in a more factual manner?
After spending considerable time with some Secret Service agents while at the ANA, I can tell you two unrelenting truths:
1. They DO NOT have a sense of humor about counterfeits. 2. When there is any doubt, they will ALWAYS err on the side of caution (e.g. NOT allowing something potentially spurious to continue to be produced).
All good intentions aside, once the folks with boring ties get wind of these pieces, they will be taking a daylight trip to the Midnight Mint. Call the pieces what you want, but refer to Truth #2 above.
If there is no worries that producing these violates any laws, then why not proactively seek the Secret Service's opinion? Heck, there is even a field office in Denver. I guarantee that if you give them a call and describe the piece, they will pop on over.
Lane
Edited for an absurd spelling mistake...geez!
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>When there is any doubt, they will ALWAYS air on the side of caution... >>
This is the way the government works. There is practically no incentive for the worker bees to say "Yes" to anything, since if they do and some unforseen consequence should result, they would find themselves in the position of having allowed it. Much easier to just say no.
"How much is it worth? That's hard to say, since there never has been a published report of any being sold. Some would even question whether any examples remain in existence today."
"Why not try to make your point in a more factual manner?"
Why not try and get a sense of humor instead, Mark?
Im not fact gathering here, just adding a lighthearted opinion. And since I don't think you are a moderator yet, you can keep your opinion (of my opinion) to yourself.
I think the fact that D. Carr, himself, has posted only once to this thread speaks volumes. Im out.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
<< <i>DCarr, before you put your press at risk of being seized...
have you vetted this with the Mint or Secrest Service? >>
Attempts were made on numerous fronts to get confirmation of the legality of these and the 2009-DC "proof" Silver Eagle over-strikes. Nobody in the government could or would answer the questions. This includes the US Mint (Treasury Department), Secret Service, US Attorney's Office, and the Federal Trade Commission. So I did my own research (with a little legal help) and arrived at my conclusion. >>
Not hard to believe that you could not get anyone to answer any questions. Just getting a live person on the phone can be a 20 minute ordeal now days. Please listen as the options have changed- Why do they all say this now, the options did not change.
I re read this whole thread, do i qualify for a free 1964 peace dollar and a bobble head???
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>DCarr, before you put your press at risk of being seized...
have you vetted this with the Mint or Secrest Service? >>
Attempts were made on numerous fronts to get confirmation of the legality of these and the 2009-DC "proof" Silver Eagle over-strikes. Nobody in the government could or would answer the questions. This includes the US Mint (Treasury Department), Secret Service, US Attorney's Office, and the Federal Trade Commission. So I did my own research (with a little legal help) and arrived at my conclusion. >>
Not hard to believe that you could not get anyone to answer any questions. Just getting a live person on the phone can be a 20 minute ordeal now days. Please listen as the options have changed- Why do they all say this now, the options did not change.
I re read this whole thread, do i qualify for a free 1964 peace dollar and a bobble head??? >>
They don't want to mess with possible crimes and sometimes even small crimes....
<< <i>"423 posts in a day and a half... Somebody please summarize this thread for me."
There's probably like 5-10 people here who care enough to post 50 times each, rehashing and embellishing the "crimes" of D. Carr, complete with legal definitions and jail sentence conjectures. I would imagine someone of his talent and intellect has had profound discussions regarding the legal ramifications of producing such a coin long before he started cranking them off.
While I can see both sides (for and against) him putting out a 1964-d Peacer Dollar without "copy" stamped on it, in the end I just think it is a cool replica that has been given too much thought. >>
I'm not going to count how many times any poster has replied to this thread. But, based on the total number of replies, I can tell you that neither 8 nor 9 nor 10 people have posted 50 times each. In fact, perhaps, none at all have reached that number, or even close to it. And I believe that some of your other summary information is exaggerated and/or incorrect, as well. Why not try to make your point in a more factual manner? >>
Some people just hate to let the facts get in the way of a good rant....
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Daniel could easily make these 1964-D's legal by stamping them with the word "COPY." I cannot understand why he is so adamant against doing so. >>
I don't think this is that complicated. He explained that, based on his research, they are legal without them. >>
I think I'll start making and selling unmarked 1870-S quarters. After all, there are none known. though a certain government document says that at least one was struck.
How about 1873-S Seated Dollars? The Mint Report says that some were struck, though none have ever surfaced.
And how 'bout we strike some.............?
Where does it end?
TD
Leave the Old Masters alone.
TD
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Daniel could easily make these 1964-D's legal by stamping them with the word "COPY." I cannot understand why he is so adamant against doing so. >>
I don't think this is that complicated. He explained that, based on his research, they are legal without them. >>
I think I'll start making and selling unmarked 1870-S quarters. After all, there are none known. though a certain government document says that at least one was struck.
How about 1873-S Seated Dollars? The Mint Report says that some were struck, though none have ever surfaced.
And how 'bout we strike some.............? >>
Were those issues monetized and released to the public? Were those specimens destroyed? The 1964 Peace dollars were never released and were all destroyed, according to the best available official records. Do the other coins you mention qualify?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Daniel could easily make these 1964-D's legal by stamping them with the word "COPY." I cannot understand why he is so adamant against doing so. >>
I don't think this is that complicated. He explained that, based on his research, they are legal without them. >>
I think I'll start making and selling unmarked 1870-S quarters. After all, there are none known. though a certain government document says that at least one was struck.
How about 1873-S Seated Dollars? The Mint Report says that some were struck, though none have ever surfaced.
And how 'bout we strike some.............?
Where does it end?
TD >>
I'll take two of each please
Are any of the islands, such as Cuba, part of either continent?
What about Greenland?)
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Daniel could easily make these 1964-D's legal by stamping them with the word "COPY." I cannot understand why he is so adamant against doing so. >>
I don't think this is that complicated. He explained that, based on his research, they are legal without them. >>
I think I'll start making and selling unmarked 1870-S quarters. After all, there are none known. though a certain government document says that at least one was struck.
How about 1873-S Seated Dollars? The Mint Report says that some were struck, though none have ever surfaced.
And how 'bout we strike some.............? >>
Were those issues monetized and released to the public? Were those specimens ordered to be destroyed? The 1964 Peace dollars were never released and were all destroyed, according to the best available official records. Do the other coins you mention qualify? >>
What difference would that make? The point is, that each of the coins mentioned could exist. But even if they couldn't, the potential for fraud is great and it's being made easier to perpetrate, while it could have been made far more difficult.
<< <i>(Silly irrelevant geographical question....on that map of North America, where does North America end and South America begin? The Darien Gap?
Are any of the islands, such as Cuba, part of either continent?
What about Greenland?) >>
North America (NAFTA) is the focal point on the coin..............South America and Greenland are irrelavant from a design impact focal point. I actually love the way he faded So America out. It would have not been symmetrical otherwise. As far as the Peace 64-D Peace dollar goes--------------It's not easy as a designer to copy and execute properly. I know that sounds bizarre but it's that way for me. I'm a designer and I struggle if a client wants me to copy something. Especially a classic well known design. It much easier for me to work from a blank canvas. JMHO.
I love D Carr's work and I bought a few of these Peace Fantasy pieces. I simply think they will be cool. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm giving D.C the same consideration - 110 bucks for a piece that will become far more valuable is a bargain : P.M me if you want mine @ $500
<< <i>....It's not easy as a designer to copy and execute properly. I know that sounds bizarre but it's that way for me. I'm a designer and I struggle if a client wants me to copy something. Especially a classic well known design. It much easier for me to work from a blank canvas. JMHO. MJ >>
Well, I have encountered the same thing. I used to be paid quite well to create or recreate the well known and accepted "masterpieces" with period correct materials. When copying Starry Night or a Rembrandt (even with the original background before his messes darkened from cheapo materials and glass) there was a very firm, if not accurate, expectation to be met. I'd rather copy Schiele or Klimt or Homer.
Edited to add - I do not like the coin above at all. Poor design and not attractive Obverse. She needs ear rings? Of ALL the things he could be making with a medal or coin press, I dunno. This new design seems so close to an extant coin and design.
Eric
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Daniel could easily make these 1964-D's legal by stamping them with the word "COPY." I cannot understand why he is so adamant against doing so. >>
I don't think this is that complicated. He explained that, based on his research, they are legal without them. >>
I think I'll start making and selling unmarked 1870-S quarters. After all, there are none known. though a certain government document says that at least one was struck.
How about 1873-S Seated Dollars? The Mint Report says that some were struck, though none have ever surfaced.
And how 'bout we strike some.............? >>
Were those issues monetized and released to the public? Were those specimens ordered to be destroyed? The 1964 Peace dollars were never released and were all destroyed, according to the best available official records. Do the other coins you mention qualify? >>
What difference would that make? The point is, that each of the coins mentioned could exist. But even if they couldn't, the potential for fraud is great and it's being made easier to perpetrate, while it could have been made far more difficult. >>
I think the potential for fraud is mitigated because any real ones would be illegally owned and should be surrendered to be destroyed. Do you defend possession of real ones, if any exist?
You want one, fine, buy one, but refusing to understand the potential for fraud or issues with it and arguing more than DC himself for the issue, just cheapens everything and makes me really wonder about the person.
The folks that have said they wanted one because of X, Y, or Z, and left it at that.....I understand. The few that have something stuck in their craw and try to compare it to other issues that have been slabbed or other ways to try to weasel out of understanding responsibility, really do confuse me.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Then it became illegal to own them.
Soon, if the courts ever get off their duffs, it may be legal to own them again.
Back in the 1970's, I noticed a comment in the Fifth Edition of the Judd pattern book that said that patterns after 1916 were illegal to own.
Curious, I wrote to the U.S. Treasury Dept. and asked them why patterns after 1916 were illegal to own. Somebody wrote back and sent me a copy of the page from the Judd book and said in effect that the patterns after 1916 were illegal to own because this book says they are.
I forwarded a copy of the letter to Abe Kosoff, and he changed the comment in the Sixth Edition. By the Treasury Dept's logic, this apparently made them now legal to own.
TD
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Daniel could easily make these 1964-D's legal by stamping them with the word "COPY." I cannot understand why he is so adamant against doing so. >>
I don't think this is that complicated. He explained that, based on his research, they are legal without them. >>
I think I'll start making and selling unmarked 1870-S quarters. After all, there are none known. though a certain government document says that at least one was struck.
How about 1873-S Seated Dollars? The Mint Report says that some were struck, though none have ever surfaced.
And how 'bout we strike some.............? >>
Were those issues monetized and released to the public? Were those specimens ordered to be destroyed? The 1964 Peace dollars were never released and were all destroyed, according to the best available official records. Do the other coins you mention qualify? >>
What difference would that make? The point is, that each of the coins mentioned could exist. But even if they couldn't, the potential for fraud is great and it's being made easier to perpetrate, while it could have been made far more difficult. >>
I think the potential for fraud is mitigated because any real ones would be illegally owned and should be surrendered to be destroyed. Do you defend possession of real ones, if any exist? >>
Whatever the extent of that mitigation, it pales in comparison to what adding the word "COPY" would achieve.
I love ya, Captain, but you have no right to tell somebody what they should be making, y'know?
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
I for one would have never even considered buying one if it werent for reading this thread and getting all hopped up over it .......
I will not deny that the potential for fraud is real - but the coin I am buying is for possible legitimate profit potential ; I hope to get mine slabbed by PCGS .
The controversy is very heated - I agree he probably shouldn't have made them without "copy" somewhere on it .......but he did make them and so far I see my right to buy one protected
under the law. If they are deemed illegal to own ( that would be so cool, F.B.I. at my door , twisting my arm and threatening jail time if I didn't turn it over )
..I would surrender it in a heartbeat .
I am probably full of it here ; but I want one
and to be completely honest - I would have little interest if any , if the coin were stamped "copy"
Let me fantasize along with the creator , and let me hold my 1964-D Peace Dollar : without feeling guilty that I'm doing something unethical or wrong
Back in 1974 or so I saw an article in the Detroit Free Press about a family feud over a coin. A man had bought a house, and his brother and niece were helping him clean up the property. The niece found a coin in the trash pit out back and gave it to her uncle. He said he would try to find out what it was worth, and split the money with her.
It was a very common Blake & Co. $20 replica, which Chrysler had given away in huge quantities as part of a promotion for the Plymouth "Gold Duster." Rather than take it to a coin shop, the uncle showed it to some people at a local diner. One of those non-numismatic people told him that it was a very rare coin worth a lot of money.
Based on this totally bogus "appraisal," the uncle declared that since the coin was found on his property he was going to keep it for himself. After harsh words were exchanged, his brother sued him on behalf of his daughter. Various family members took one side or the other. The lawyers for both sides ran up fees.
I called the reporter listed in the paper and told him that the coin was a worthless copy. He said that somebody had already told the family this, but that both sides wanted to go to trial because they had already spent so much money on the case. I never heard how it came out.
TD
Any updates on how many of these fantasy overstrikes were sold these past 2 days ???
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>(Silly irrelevant geographical question....on that map of North America, where does North America end and South America begin? The Darien Gap?
Are any of the islands, such as Cuba, part of either continent?
What about Greenland?) >>
when we can drill for oil in earnest, greenland will become part of north america.
Somebody please summarize this thread for me.
<< <i>423 posts in a day and a half.
Somebody please summarize this thread for me.
yes it is...
no it isn't...
<< <i>423 posts in a day and a half.
Somebody please summarize this thread for me.
The Feds didn't get to him yet...and he's still crankin' out coins....
1) adj. describing a document, particularly money, which is forged or created to look real and intended to pass for real. 2) v. to criminally forge or print a false copy of money, bonds, or other valuable documents, intending to profit from the falsity. 3) n. shorthand for phoney money passed for real.
See also: forgery utter
forgery
n. 1) the crime of creating a false document, altering a document, or writing a false signature for the illegal benefit of the person making the forgery. This includes improperly filling in a blank document, like an automobile purchase contract, over a buyer's signature, with the terms different from those agreed. It does not include such innocent representation as a staff member autographing photos of politicians or movie stars. While similar to forgery, counterfeiting refers to the creation of phoney money, stock certificates or bonds which are negotiable for cash. 2) a document or signature falsely created or altered.
It doesn't matter if the complaint (civil or criminal) against the manufacturer has any real merit the defense to a frivolous complaint will be expensive. We live in a litigant society and while anyone, anywhere can be sued for almost anything why invite legal trouble?
Somebody please summarize this thread for me."
There's probably like 5-10 people here who care enough to post 50 times each, rehashing and embellishing the "crimes" of D. Carr, complete with legal definitions and jail sentence conjectures. I would imagine someone of his talent and intellect has had profound discussions regarding the legal ramifications of producing such a coin long before he started cranking them off.
While I can see both sides (for and against) him putting out a 1964-d Peacer Dollar without "copy" stamped on it, in the end I just think it is a cool replica that has been given too much thought.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
<< <i>I am still puzzled by the handful of people that are so vehement that this is ok to do.
You want one, fine, buy one, but refusing to understand the potential for fraud or issues with it and arguing more than DC himself for the issue, just cheapens everything and makes me really wonder about the person.
The folks that have said they wanted one because of X, Y, or Z, and left it at that.....I understand. The few that have something stuck in their craw and try to compare it to other issues that have been slabbed or other ways to try to weasel out of understanding responsibility, really do confuse me. >>
^^This.
peacockcoins
<< <i>Okay, I have not bothered to read ALL of the posts, but enough to get the gist. The vehemence seems pretty loaded against Dan. While stopping short of saying it's silly, I would say that I think you "Anti-" clan are taking a legitimate issue (counterfeiting) and choosing the wrong example to get all worked up about. I see Dan's newest creation as a work of art. Of COURSE someone down the road is going to try to pawn it off as real, but I seriously doubt anyone here is buying this except for what it is--a piece of art that is beautiful, interesting, and significant historically. Putting "copy" on this would seriously undermine its artistic beauty. Imitators abound in any artistic field, but that doesn't make them counterfeiters and to imply Dan is doing something unethical is, well, ridiculous. >>
Further, I voted with my purchase of $115.00 [$110 +$5 shipping]
Cheers!
Kirk
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>"423 posts in a day and a half...
Somebody please summarize this thread for me."
There's probably like 5-10 people here who care enough to post 50 times each, rehashing and embellishing the "crimes" of D. Carr, complete with legal definitions and jail sentence conjectures. I would imagine someone of his talent and intellect has had profound discussions regarding the legal ramifications of producing such a coin long before he started cranking them off.
While I can see both sides (for and against) him putting out a 1964-d Peacer Dollar without "copy" stamped on it, in the end I just think it is a cool replica that has been given too much thought. >>
I'm not going to count how many times any poster has replied to this thread. But, based on the total number of replies, I can tell you that neither 8 nor 9 nor 10 people have posted 50 times each. In fact, perhaps, none at all have reached that number, or even close to it. And I believe that some of your other summary information is exaggerated and/or incorrect, as well. Why not try to make your point in a more factual manner?
I wonder what terminology will be applied to these, when they are 'graded' by anacs. Is this a PROOF, is it s SPECIMEN, or is just MS.
I am going to say proof, just by virtue of the multiple high pressure strikes, and sandblasted dies which give a classic matte proof appearance.
But, if he strikes only once, and uses a different finish, would that be SPECIMEN?
After spending considerable time with some Secret Service agents while at the ANA, I can tell you two unrelenting truths:
1. They DO NOT have a sense of humor about counterfeits.
2. When there is any doubt, they will ALWAYS err on the side of caution (e.g. NOT allowing something potentially spurious to continue to be produced).
All good intentions aside, once the folks with boring ties get wind of these pieces, they will be taking a daylight trip to the Midnight Mint. Call the pieces what you want, but refer to Truth #2 above.
If there is no worries that producing these violates any laws, then why not proactively seek the Secret Service's opinion? Heck, there is even a field office in Denver. I guarantee that if you give them a call and describe the piece, they will pop on over.
Lane
Edited for an absurd spelling mistake...geez!
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>RK. He said he sold 100 through this afternoon. He's struck 200 go far. He is shipping now. MJ >>
With all the board chatter I would have thought higher than 200?
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
<< <i>When there is any doubt, they will ALWAYS air on the side of caution... >>
This is the way the government works. There is practically no incentive for the worker bees to say "Yes" to anything, since if they do and some unforseen consequence should result, they would find themselves in the position of having allowed it. Much easier to just say no.
<< <i>Much easier to just say no. >>
and to err
E
<< <i>
<< <i>Much easier to just say no. >>
and to err
E
Yeah...I guess I am a bit more tired than I thought!
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
The 64 dollar question,
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
<< <i>Very interesting article by our host 1964 D >>
"How much is it worth? That's hard to say, since there never has been a published report of any being sold. Some would even question whether any examples remain in existence today."
$110 plus $5 shipping
Why not try and get a sense of humor instead, Mark?
Im not fact gathering here, just adding a lighthearted opinion. And since I don't think you are a moderator yet, you can keep your opinion (of my opinion) to yourself.
I think the fact that D. Carr, himself, has posted only once to this thread speaks volumes. Im out.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
<< <i>I think the fact that D. Carr, himself, has posted only once to this thread speaks volumes. >>
Only once? Are you sure about your count there? You might want to take another look...
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
<< <i>
<< <i>DCarr, before you put your press at risk of being seized...
have you vetted this with the Mint or Secrest Service? >>
Attempts were made on numerous fronts to get confirmation of the legality of these and the 2009-DC "proof" Silver Eagle over-strikes.
Nobody in the government could or would answer the questions. This includes the US Mint (Treasury Department), Secret Service,
US Attorney's Office, and the Federal Trade Commission. So I did my own research (with a little legal help) and arrived at my conclusion. >>
Not hard to believe that you could not get anyone to answer any questions. Just getting a live person on the phone can be a 20 minute ordeal now days. Please listen as the options have changed- Why do they all say this now, the options did not change.
I re read this whole thread, do i qualify for a free 1964 peace dollar and a bobble head???
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Don't you start , too, Mr. Potatoheadd! >>
What? Me? I'm just adding a lighthearted opinion.
<< <i>I re read this whole thread, do i qualify for a free 1964 peace dollar and a bobble head??? >>
If you re-read this whole thread, you need to get a hobby!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>DCarr, before you put your press at risk of being seized...
have you vetted this with the Mint or Secrest Service? >>
Attempts were made on numerous fronts to get confirmation of the legality of these and the 2009-DC "proof" Silver Eagle over-strikes.
Nobody in the government could or would answer the questions. This includes the US Mint (Treasury Department), Secret Service,
US Attorney's Office, and the Federal Trade Commission. So I did my own research (with a little legal help) and arrived at my conclusion. >>
Not hard to believe that you could not get anyone to answer any questions. Just getting a live person on the phone can be a 20 minute ordeal now days. Please listen as the options have changed- Why do they all say this now, the options did not change.
I re read this whole thread, do i qualify for a free 1964 peace dollar and a bobble head??? >>
They don't want to mess with possible crimes and sometimes even small crimes....
It's a disgrace.
<< <i>
<< <i>"423 posts in a day and a half...
Somebody please summarize this thread for me."
There's probably like 5-10 people here who care enough to post 50 times each, rehashing and embellishing the "crimes" of D. Carr, complete with legal definitions and jail sentence conjectures. I would imagine someone of his talent and intellect has had profound discussions regarding the legal ramifications of producing such a coin long before he started cranking them off.
While I can see both sides (for and against) him putting out a 1964-d Peacer Dollar without "copy" stamped on it, in the end I just think it is a cool replica that has been given too much thought. >>
I'm not going to count how many times any poster has replied to this thread. But, based on the total number of replies, I can tell you that neither 8 nor 9 nor 10 people have posted 50 times each. In fact, perhaps, none at all have reached that number, or even close to it. And I believe that some of your other summary information is exaggerated and/or incorrect, as well. Why not try to make your point in a more factual manner? >>
Some people just hate to let the facts get in the way of a good rant....