<< <i>RK. He said he sold 100 through this afternoon. He's struck 200 so far. He is shipping now. MJ >>
With all the board chatter I would have thought higher than 200? >>
Exerpts from DC earlier today: (He posted several times in this thread)
<As for the price, yes it is somewhat high. I don't expect to sell a lot of these. But the amount of work and the number of steps required to produce them is far more than anythng else I've ever minted. I spent a considerable amount of time to get them to look "right" - which wasn't until the fifth pair of dies was put into use, and some specialized tooling was built to process the raw Peace dollars before over-striking.>
<As for the mintage, the final total is yet to be determined. It will definitely be less than 2,000. Perhaps a lot less. Not sure yet>
<So far:
Quantity ordered: About 100 Quantity minted (die pair 5 - the only die pair released): About 200
Shipping: commencing today.>
<I will mint to demand, but NOT more than 2,000. If sales quickly reach 1,500 or so, the last 500 will cost more And the last 100 even more than that >
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Just by reading the number of responses to this thread and the arguments both for or against the issue it's reasonable to assume that someone will eventually claim damages of some sort over the "coin"?
<< <i>Just by reading the number of responses to this thread and the arguments both for or against the issue it's reasonable to assume that someone will eventually claim damages of some sort over the "coin"?
It's not a coin, its a medal >>
I'm pretty certain that DCarr states that it's a 1922-1935 Peace dollar.
Refs: MCM,Fivecents,Julio,Robman,Endzone,Coiny,Agentjim007,Musky1011,holeinone1972,Tdec1000,Type2,bumanchu, Metalsman,Wondercoin,Pitboss,Tomohawk,carew4me,segoja,thebigeng,jlc_coin,mbogoman,sportsmod,dragon,tychojoe,Schmitz7,claychaser, Bullsitter, robeck, Nickpatton, jwitten, and many OTHERS
How about a 1959 Wheat cent? PCGS says they are fake. Or a 1922 S Lincoln, or a 1975 Ike, a 2009-S VDB like the mint should have? Those would all be great coins.
<< <i>So, the 1798-CC Trade Dollar that some guy brought into the store that he bought in China is not a counterveit because there are no genuine 1798-CC Trade Dollars? Is that what you are saying? ... TD >>
Personally, I take the word "counterfeit" to mean that the coin or note looks like actual legal-tender, but isn't.
So in my view, that 1798-CC is a counterfeit because it claims to be a legal-tender one-dollar instrument, but isn't. If the "1798-CC" was over-struck on something that was already a legal-tender dollar, then the result would be an altered coin, not a counterfeit coin. You have to take into account what the thing was struck on. That's how I see it, anyway.
After spending considerable time with some Secret Service agents while at the ANA, I can tell you two unrelenting truths:
1. They DO NOT have a sense of humor about counterfeits. 2. When there is any doubt, they will ALWAYS err on the side of caution (e.g. NOT allowing something potentially spurious to continue to be produced).
All good intentions aside, once the folks with boring ties get wind of these pieces, they will be taking a daylight trip to the Midnight Mint. Call the pieces what you want, but refer to Truth #2 above.
If there is no worries that producing these violates any laws, then why not proactively seek the Secret Service's opinion? Heck, there is even a field office in Denver. I guarantee that if you give them a call and describe the piece, they will pop on over.
Lane >>
> 2. When there is any doubt, they will ALWAYS err on the side of caution (e.g. NOT allowing something potentially spurious to continue to be produced).
If that were really true, then why haven't they done anything about all the Chinese counterfeits (and I'm talking junk metal turned into what looks like USA legal tender) ? My pieces are NOT counterfeits of legal tender - they're altered legal-tender coins - and there is a big difference.
Here is a truth: If the SS decides to shut me down, then I'm going to make sure all the Chinese counterfeiters get taken down too. The first thing I would argue in court is unfair "selective enforcement". And I would make a big deal about that.
>If there is no worries that producing these violates any laws, then why not proactively seek the Secret Service's opinion? Heck, there is even a field office in Denver. I guarantee that if you give them a call and describe the piece, they will pop on over.
Ok, so here is the very brief chronology of what transpired when Coin World attempted to get a clarification on the legality of over-striking a genuine coin to make it look like a similar coin (but one that was never produced - specifically the 2009-DC "proofed" Silver Eagles):
Coin World contacted the US Mint with the details. The US Mint replied simply stating that I had not submtted a sample to them for review, but even if I had, enforcement of related laws lies with the Secret Service - contact them. So then the Secret Service was contacted. Their response was basically: "The Secret Service doesn't render legal opinions for the public - contact the US Attorney's Office". The US Attorneys Office (in Denver) was contacted. Their response was basically: "The US Attorney's Office doesn't render legal opinions for the public - get your own lawyer".
I have to laugh at those that worry about potential fraud since this coin doesn't exist. The mint said they were all melted and if one were sneaked out (extremely unlikely), it would be illegal to own. Let's face it---there is potential for fraud with every coin ever produced. Take a common coin, over grade it, put it in a fancy third world slab, and then sell it to an "investor", sell it on HSN, etc. At least this 1964 dollar coin is a fantasy coin and shouldn't fool anyone who wouldn't also buy the Brooklyn bridge.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Here is a truth: If the SS decides to shut me down, then I'm going to make sure all the Chinese counterfeiters get taken down too. The first thing I would argue in court is unfair "selective enforcement". And I would make a big deal about that >>
I made the same argument the last time I got a speeding ticket. It didn't work.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Here is a truth: If the SS decides to shut me down, then I'm going to make sure all the Chinese counterfeiters get taken down too. The first thing I would argue in court is unfair "selective enforcement". And I would make a big deal about that >>
I made the same argument the last time I got a speeding ticket. It didn't work. >>
The police wouldn't be specifically aware of the other speeding incidents, so I can see why that wouldn't work. In my (hypothetical) case, the Secret Service is specifically aware of Chinese counterfeiters, and they have CLEARLY demonstrated no effort to go after them. Might not work in court, but I'd still use it, if necessary.
I just want to extend my thanks to Dan for stirring things up a bit around here as it has been quite slow as of late but not anymore! These are the topics that make this forum a great place to visit.
Charter member of CA, Coinaholics Anonymous-6/7/2003 Kewpie Doll award-10/29/2007 Successful BST transactions with Coinboy and Wondercoin.
<< <i>I just want to extend my thanks to Dan for stirring things up a bit around here as it has been quite slow as of late but not anymore! These are the topics that make this forum a great place to visit. >>
Yes, this has definitely made things more interesting and has given the forum a much-needed injection of spirited debate!
The down side is, my bank account is now $115.00 less than it was. :0)
<< <i>I just want to extend my thanks to Dan for stirring things up a bit around here as it has been quite slow as of late but not anymore! These are the topics that make this forum a great place to visit. >>
Yes, this has definitely made things more interesting and has given the forum a much-needed injection of spirited debate!
The down side is, my bank account is now $115.00 less than it was. :0) >>
Mine is too. The upside will be when I have another treasure to behold in my collection soon.
In memory of my kitty Seryozha 14.2.1996 ~ 13.9.2016 and Shadow 3.4.2015 - 16.4.21
I'm on your side & applaud your work and stance but have you in fact gotten a legal opinion from a lawyer (in writing)?
Would go a long way to protecting you if it said you weren't breaking any laws and then you subsequently got accused of doing so.
btw: 471 (29 to go for 500 ).
fyi: your local Secret Service office number is 303-850-2700 & for anyone that wants to know what (if anything) the secret service is doing in China, the Hong Kong office number is 011-852-2841-2524 (no mainland offices yet).
Genuine coins are struck (stamped out) by special machinery. Most counterfeit coins are made by pouring liquid metal into molds or dies. This procedure often leaves die marks, such as cracks or pimples of metal on the counterfeit coin.
Today counterfeit coins are made primarily to simulate rare coins which are of value to collectors. Sometimes this is done by altering genuine coins to increase their numismatic value. The most common changes are the removal, addition or alteration of the coin's date or mint marks.
If you suspect you are in possession of a counterfeit or altered coin, compare it with a genuine one of the same value.
If it is above five cents in value, it should have corrugated outer edges, referred to as "reeding." Reeding on genuine coins is even and distinct. The counterfeit coin's reeding may be uneven, crooked or missing altogether."
Guess if I were your attorney I'd have to argue you weren't "altering genuine coins to increase their numismatic value" but to increase their artistic value AND that there was no alteration of the coin's date but a total replacement of a recognized (issued) date with one that was never issued & thus not altered to match a real coin (or something along those lines). Seems a fine line though.
<< <i>I just want to extend my thanks to Dan for stirring things up a bit around here as it has been quite slow as of late but not anymore! These are the topics that make this forum a great place to visit. >>
Yes, this has definitely made things more interesting and has given the forum a much-needed injection of spirited debate!
The down side is, my bank account is now $115.00 less than it was. :0) >>
Mine is too. The upside will be when I have another treasure to behold in my collection soon. >>
> 2. When there is any doubt, they will ALWAYS err on the side of caution (e.g. NOT allowing something potentially spurious to continue to be produced). >>
If that were really true, then why haven't they done anything about all the Chinese counterfeits (and I'm talking junk metal turned into what looks like USA legal tender) ? >>
That's easy...the US Secret Service does not have jurisdiction in China. If the coins are produced in the US or passed in the US as real coins, then they can intercede. As sad as it is, what the Chinese counterfeiters are doing is completely legal by Chinese law.
<< <i>My pieces are NOT counterfeits of legal tender - they're altered legal-tender coins - and there is a big difference. >>
I agree, but also think that is a subtlety that will be lost if you run into federal concerns. You are simply moving metal around on an already legal tender coin so that it represents a coin once produced by the US Mint, but never monetized (at least I don't think the 1964 Peace dollars were - because if they were, you are in a heap of trouble, Bubba). You are selling it as a fantasy piece, will all the best intentions. Now contrast that with an artist that takes a few 1934-D Peace dollars and decides to create his own 1964-D fantasy pieces by moving a smaller bit of metal around and changing the 3 to a 6 and sells some in his gallery to tourists and collectors. Is that any different? It's not a counterfeit either, it's an altered coin as well. If it's no different, then why do we all get our collective skirts in a bunch when somebody alters a date or adds a new mintmark (as long as no "new" metal is being added)? We may not know their original intentions and they actually may have been as pure as yours.
Lane
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
“1964-D” Peace Dollar re-strike. Struck over a Peace dollar dated 1922-1935. Technically this is not a “copy” because it is a genuine Peace Dollar (over-struck), with a date that (according to the government) does not exist. I have not released any of these, and that will depend on a clarification of certain laws (I’m waiting to find out from the government if a “COPY” stamp is required in cases where a genuine coin is altered to show a date that was never released and/or does not exist):
I enjoy seeing D. Carr's innovative designs, but without a copy stamp this issue is a counterfeit.
There are many, many counterfeit coins with dates that were never struck by the US Mint. The fact that the type was copied makes them counterfeits.
<< <i>My pieces are NOT counterfeits of legal tender - they're altered legal-tender coins - and there is a big difference. >>
The source of the metal could be Peace dollars or equivalent alloy planchets, this could not be proven and would not make a difference as the final product is a struck Peace dollar that was not authorized by the US government.
<< <i>Here is a truth: If the SS decides to shut me down, then I'm going to make sure all the Chinese counterfeiters get taken down too. The first thing I would argue in court is unfair "selective enforcement". And I would make a big deal about that. >>
Not stamping "copy" on the coin when you know it could be an illegal action is bizarre. Why not clear it with the SS before release? If the SS will not render a legal opinion, why not stamp "copy" on the coins instead of looking for loopholes and using weasel words in an attempt to get away with it?
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
I've deliberated buying one or more of these coins since I first saw them yesterday. They're a neat novelty item and if it weren't for me believing they're illegal to manufacturer and hence will be illegal to own, I'd pull the trigger. It comes down to an ethics issue for me. I hope it works out for DC, I'd hate to see this negatively affect his business.
<< <i>In my (hypothetical) case, the Secret Service is specifically aware of Chinese counterfeiters, and they have CLEARLY demonstrated no effort to go after them. Might not work in court, but I'd still use it, if necessary. >>
Last weekend, Larry Briggs was giving a talk about counterfeits at the ILNA show, and recounted the Secret Service's inability to detect counterfeits as well as their indifference towards doing anything about it unless the counterfeiter was handed to them on a silver platter. You could call that selective enforcement or you could call it choosing one's battles given limited resources. Setting yourself up to use a defense that you admit might not work in court seems to be a dangerous proposition. It would be a waste to martyr your operation over that.
DC is just trying to make a buck - by destroying a real one to make a copy of one that doesn't exist. If there is any legal problem, I suspect it would be with the Hobby Protection Act, not counterfeiting laws.
I don't see where anyone is harmed, except for the original Peace Dollars. If someone tries to sell one as a real 1964-D dollar and gets $1,000,000 for it, then there are some fools out there.
I need one for my collection, so I ordered one. It think the price is very fair.
BTW, 64 Peace dollars are worth +- $1280
Dan, Can you tell us what you had to do to the peace dollars to make them strike up? Did you anneal them?
Just as an aside, the concept that a coin is not a coin until it is "monetized" has been credibly attacked as a fiction that the U.S. government created to help justify its actions in the Fenton 1933 $20 case. As you may recall the government had to settle with Fenton in that case. TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>In my (hypothetical) case, the Secret Service is specifically aware of Chinese counterfeiters, and they have CLEARLY demonstrated no effort to go after them. Might not work in court, but I'd still use it, if necessary. >>
Last weekend, Larry Briggs was giving a talk about counterfeits at the ILNA show, and recounted the Secret Service's inability to detect counterfeits as well as their indifference towards doing anything about it unless the counterfeiter was handed to them on a silver platter. You could call that selective enforcement or you could call it choosing one's battles given limited resources. Setting yourself up to use a defense that you admit might not work in court seems to be a dangerous proposition. It would be a waste to martyr your operation over that. >>
I must say that "not pursuing" is no defense at all.
If a crime is committed, the question is "was a crime committed yes or no?"
Perhaps, the lack of initial response will be a mitigating circumstance come sentencing.
In six months someone will be complaining that their spurious 1964 Peace Dollar has been discovered to have artificial toning on it....................
“1964-D” Peace Dollar re-strike. Struck over a Peace dollar dated 1922-1935. Technically this is not a “copy” because it is a genuine Peace Dollar (over-struck), with a date that (according to the government) does not exist. I have not released any of these, and that will depend on a clarification of certain laws (I’m waiting to find out from the government if a “COPY” stamp is required in cases where a genuine coin is altered to show a date that was never released and/or does not exist):
[deleted images to save space]
btw, These are SUPER COOL (do you sell them?):
>>
That web page was out-dated and I hadn't got around to fixing it until just now.
I did sell some of those bi-metallic Astronaut concept $2 coins. I no longer have any available, but they show up on eBay occasionally (search in the Coins category for "concept"). Here are actual struck examples (proof-like & satin):
<< <i>I enjoy seeing D. Carr's innovative designs, but without a copy stamp this issue is a counterfeit. There are many, many counterfeit coins with dates that were never struck by the US Mint. The fact that the type was copied makes them counterfeits. >>
The "type" (Peace Dollar) was NOT copied ! It was ALTERED !
<< <i>The source of the metal could be Peace dollars or equivalent alloy planchets, this could not be proven and would not make a difference as the final product is a struck Peace dollar that was not authorized by the US government. >>
I can prove (by demonstrating the whole process) that they were struck over normal Peace dollars and that no metal is added to, or removed from, them.
<< <i>Not stamping "copy" on the coin when you know it could be an illegal action is bizarre. Why not clear it with the SS before release? If the SS will not render a legal opinion, why not stamp "copy" on the coins instead of looking for loopholes and using weasel words in an attempt to get away with it? >>
The Secret Service is NEVER going to issue "permission slips" for ANYTHING, right or wrong. I wanted a few of these coins for myself, and I don't want "COPY" on them. Neither do the other folks that want one.
<< <i>In my (hypothetical) case, the Secret Service is specifically aware of Chinese counterfeiters, and they have CLEARLY demonstrated no effort to go after them. Might not work in court, but I'd still use it, if necessary. >>
Last weekend, Larry Briggs was giving a talk about counterfeits at the ILNA show, and recounted the Secret Service's inability to detect counterfeits as well as their indifference towards doing anything about it unless the counterfeiter was handed to them on a silver platter. You could call that selective enforcement or you could call it choosing one's battles given limited resources. Setting yourself up to use a defense that you admit might not work in court seems to be a dangerous proposition. It would be a waste to martyr your operation over that. >>
"Selective enforcement" would NOT be my main "defence" in court in the unlikely event things ever went that far. My main defence is simply that NO LAWS WERE BROKEN. If the related laws are vauge and ill-defined, that's Congress' problem, and it is up to them to fix it.
<< <i>Dan, Can you tell us what you had to do to the peace dollars to make them strike up? Did you anneal them? >>
I don't want to divulge the whole process. But suffice to say that they go through several labor-intensive processes to flatten them and reduce the diameter slightly. As I said before, no metal is ever added or removed.
I think you made the right choice by halting sales and to get clarification before shipping, jeopardizing your whole operation over this is fool hardy.
Just an opinion: The pieces are in the likeness of a legal tender U.S. coin, and are obvious counterfeits. The medals or tokens, shown above, are not coins – they do not include a recognized statement of value.
If the counterfeits are stamped with “COPY” then they are legal just as are Gallery Mint products. Absent the copy stamp, they are exactly like any Chinese counterfeit, similarly unmarked. The counterfeit can be in any media – including limburger cheese – but it will still stink.
It is amazing how many “collectors” appear to have jumped at the chance to buy a counterfeit, yet gripe and complain about the Chinese fakes flooding the market. The poll about properly marked pieces is even more revealing of the attitudes of some.
No further comments from me…let the Treasury Dept. do it’s investigation and make a determination.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>RK. He said he sold 100 through this afternoon. He's struck 200 so far. He is shipping now. MJ >>
With all the board chatter I would have thought higher than 200? >>
Exerpts from DC earlier today: (He posted several times in this thread)
<As for the price, yes it is somewhat high. I don't expect to sell a lot of these. But the amount of work and the number of steps required to produce them is far more than anythng else I've ever minted. I spent a considerable amount of time to get them to look "right" - which wasn't until the fifth pair of dies was put into use, and some specialized tooling was built to process the raw Peace dollars before over-striking.>
<As for the mintage, the final total is yet to be determined. It will definitely be less than 2,000. Perhaps a lot less. Not sure yet>
<So far:
Quantity ordered: About 100
Quantity minted (die pair 5 - the only die pair released): About 200
Shipping: commencing today.>
<I will mint to demand, but NOT more than 2,000.
If sales quickly reach 1,500 or so, the last 500 will cost more
And the last 100 even more than that >
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It's not a coin, its a medal
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
<< <i>Just by reading the number of responses to this thread and the arguments both for or against the issue it's reasonable to assume that someone will eventually claim damages of some sort over the "coin"?
It's not a coin, its a medal >>
I'm pretty certain that DCarr states that it's a 1922-1935 Peace dollar.
Unless it's stamped as such, it is dangerous. Put it on the edges??, but it should be stamped in some way.
What's next? 33 Saints, 1804 dollars, 55 DDO Lincs, ??
<< <i>IT'S A RESTRIKE
Unless it's stamped as such, it is dangerous. Put it on the edges??, but it should be stamped in some way.
What's next? 33 Saints, 1804 dollars, 55 DDO Lincs, ?? >>
How about a 1959 Wheat cent? PCGS says they are fake. Or a 1922 S Lincoln, or a 1975 Ike, a 2009-S VDB like the mint should have? Those would all be great coins.
<< <i>So, the 1798-CC Trade Dollar that some guy brought into the store that he bought in China is not a counterveit because there are no genuine 1798-CC Trade Dollars?
Is that what you are saying? ... TD >>
Personally, I take the word "counterfeit" to mean that the coin or note looks like actual legal-tender, but isn't.
So in my view, that 1798-CC is a counterfeit because it claims to be a legal-tender one-dollar instrument, but isn't.
If the "1798-CC" was over-struck on something that was already a legal-tender dollar, then the result
would be an altered coin, not a counterfeit coin. You have to take into account what the thing was
struck on. That's how I see it, anyway.
<< <i>What a great thread...
After spending considerable time with some Secret Service agents while at the ANA, I can tell you two unrelenting truths:
1. They DO NOT have a sense of humor about counterfeits.
2. When there is any doubt, they will ALWAYS err on the side of caution (e.g. NOT allowing something potentially spurious to continue to be produced).
All good intentions aside, once the folks with boring ties get wind of these pieces, they will be taking a daylight trip to the Midnight Mint. Call the pieces what you want, but refer to Truth #2 above.
If there is no worries that producing these violates any laws, then why not proactively seek the Secret Service's opinion? Heck, there is even a field office in Denver. I guarantee that if you give them a call and describe the piece, they will pop on over.
Lane >>
> 2. When there is any doubt, they will ALWAYS err on the side of caution (e.g. NOT allowing something potentially spurious to continue to be produced).
If that were really true, then why haven't they done anything about all the Chinese counterfeits (and I'm talking junk metal turned into what looks like USA legal tender) ?
My pieces are NOT counterfeits of legal tender - they're altered legal-tender coins - and there is a big difference.
Here is a truth: If the SS decides to shut me down, then I'm going to make sure all the Chinese counterfeiters get taken down too. The first thing I would argue in court is unfair "selective enforcement". And I would make a big deal about that.
>If there is no worries that producing these violates any laws, then why not proactively seek the Secret Service's opinion? Heck, there is even a field office in Denver. I guarantee that if you give them a call and describe the piece, they will pop on over.
Ok, so here is the very brief chronology of what transpired when Coin World attempted to get a clarification on the legality of over-striking a genuine coin to make it look like a similar coin (but one that was never produced - specifically the 2009-DC "proofed" Silver Eagles):
Coin World contacted the US Mint with the details. The US Mint replied simply stating that I had not submtted a sample to them for review, but even if I had, enforcement of related laws lies with the Secret Service - contact them.
So then the Secret Service was contacted. Their response was basically: "The Secret Service doesn't render legal opinions for the public - contact the US Attorney's Office".
The US Attorneys Office (in Denver) was contacted. Their response was basically: "The US Attorney's Office doesn't render legal opinions for the public - get your own lawyer".
<< <i>I think the fact that D. Carr, himself, has posted only once to this thread speaks volumes. Im out. >>
I think I've posted in this thread at least a dozen times, but I'm not going to bother with a recount.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>423 posts in a day and a half.
Somebody please summarize this thread for me.
yes it is...
no it isn't... >>
A very accurate summary
Part of the "art" of this coin is exactly that yes/no aspect.
<< <i>Here is a truth: If the SS decides to shut me down, then I'm going to make sure all the Chinese counterfeiters get taken down too. The first thing I would argue in court is unfair "selective enforcement". And I would make a big deal about that >>
I made the same argument the last time I got a speeding ticket. It didn't work.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>Here is a truth: If the SS decides to shut me down, then I'm going to make sure all the Chinese counterfeiters get taken down too. The first thing I would argue in court is unfair "selective enforcement". And I would make a big deal about that >>
I made the same argument the last time I got a speeding ticket. It didn't work.
The police wouldn't be specifically aware of the other speeding incidents, so I can see why that wouldn't work.
In my (hypothetical) case, the Secret Service is specifically aware of Chinese counterfeiters, and they have CLEARLY
demonstrated no effort to go after them. Might not work in court, but I'd still use it, if necessary.
Kewpie Doll award-10/29/2007
Successful BST transactions with Coinboy and Wondercoin.
<< <i>I just want to extend my thanks to Dan for stirring things up a bit around here as it has been quite slow as of late but not anymore! These are the topics that make this forum a great place to visit. >>
Yes, this has definitely made things more interesting and has given the forum a much-needed injection of spirited debate!
The down side is, my bank account is now $115.00 less than it was. :0)
<< <i>
<< <i>I just want to extend my thanks to Dan for stirring things up a bit around here as it has been quite slow as of late but not anymore! These are the topics that make this forum a great place to visit. >>
Yes, this has definitely made things more interesting and has given the forum a much-needed injection of spirited debate!
The down side is, my bank account is now $115.00 less than it was. :0) >>
Mine is too. The upside will be when I have another treasure to behold in my collection soon.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
BST successful dealings with:MsMorrisine, goldman86
I'm on your side & applaud your work and stance but have you in fact gotten a legal opinion from a lawyer (in writing)?
Would go a long way to protecting you if it said you weren't breaking any laws and then you subsequently got accused of doing so.
btw: 471 (29 to go for 500
fyi: your local Secret Service office number is 303-850-2700 & for anyone that wants to know what (if anything) the secret service is doing in China, the Hong Kong office number is 011-852-2841-2524 (no mainland offices yet).
Also, from the Secret Service website:
"KNOW YOUR MONEY
Counterfeit Coins
Genuine coins are struck (stamped out) by special machinery. Most counterfeit coins are made by pouring liquid metal into molds or dies. This procedure often leaves die marks, such as cracks or pimples of metal on the counterfeit coin.
Today counterfeit coins are made primarily to simulate rare coins which are of value to collectors. Sometimes this is done by altering genuine coins to increase their numismatic value. The most common changes are the removal, addition or alteration of the coin's date or mint marks.
If you suspect you are in possession of a counterfeit or altered coin, compare it with a genuine one of the same value.
If it is above five cents in value, it should have corrugated outer edges, referred to as "reeding." Reeding on genuine coins is even and distinct. The counterfeit coin's reeding may be uneven, crooked or missing altogether."
Guess if I were your attorney I'd have to argue you weren't "altering genuine coins to increase their numismatic value" but to increase their artistic value AND that there was no alteration of the coin's date but a total replacement of a recognized (issued) date with one that was never issued & thus not altered to match a real coin (or something along those lines). Seems a fine line though.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just want to extend my thanks to Dan for stirring things up a bit around here as it has been quite slow as of late but not anymore! These are the topics that make this forum a great place to visit. >>
Yes, this has definitely made things more interesting and has given the forum a much-needed injection of spirited debate!
The down side is, my bank account is now $115.00 less than it was. :0) >>
Mine is too. The upside will be when I have another treasure to behold in my collection soon. >>
triple dittos here.
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> 2. When there is any doubt, they will ALWAYS err on the side of caution (e.g. NOT allowing something potentially spurious to continue to be produced). >>
If that were really true, then why haven't they done anything about all the Chinese counterfeits (and I'm talking junk metal turned into what looks like USA legal tender) ? >>
That's easy...the US Secret Service does not have jurisdiction in China. If the coins are produced in the US or passed in the US as real coins, then they can intercede. As sad as it is, what the Chinese counterfeiters are doing is completely legal by Chinese law.
<< <i>My pieces are NOT counterfeits of legal tender - they're altered legal-tender coins - and there is a big difference. >>
I agree, but also think that is a subtlety that will be lost if you run into federal concerns. You are simply moving metal around on an already legal tender coin so that it represents a coin once produced by the US Mint, but never monetized (at least I don't think the 1964 Peace dollars were - because if they were, you are in a heap of trouble, Bubba). You are selling it as a fantasy piece, will all the best intentions. Now contrast that with an artist that takes a few 1934-D Peace dollars and decides to create his own 1964-D fantasy pieces by moving a smaller bit of metal around and changing the 3 to a 6 and sells some in his gallery to tourists and collectors. Is that any different? It's not a counterfeit either, it's an altered coin as well. If it's no different, then why do we all get our collective skirts in a bunch when somebody alters a date or adds a new mintmark (as long as no "new" metal is being added)? We may not know their original intentions and they actually may have been as pure as yours.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
LINK
Text:
“1964-D” Peace Dollar re-strike. Struck over a Peace dollar dated 1922-1935. Technically this is not a “copy” because it is a genuine Peace Dollar (over-struck), with a date that (according to the government) does not exist. I have not released any of these, and that will depend on a clarification of certain laws (I’m waiting to find out from the government if a “COPY” stamp is required in cases where a genuine coin is altered to show a date that was never released and/or does not exist):
btw, These are SUPER COOL (do you sell them?):
There are many, many counterfeit coins with dates that were never struck by the US Mint. The fact that the type was copied makes them counterfeits.
<< <i>My pieces are NOT counterfeits of legal tender - they're altered legal-tender coins - and there is a big difference. >>
The source of the metal could be Peace dollars or equivalent alloy planchets, this could not be proven and would not make a difference as the final product is a struck Peace dollar that was not authorized by the US government.
<< <i>Here is a truth: If the SS decides to shut me down, then I'm going to make sure all the Chinese counterfeiters get taken down too. The first thing I would argue in court is unfair "selective enforcement". And I would make a big deal about that. >>
Not stamping "copy" on the coin when you know it could be an illegal action is bizarre. Why not clear it with the SS before release? If the SS will not render a legal opinion, why not stamp "copy" on the coins instead of looking for loopholes and using weasel words in an attempt to get away with it?
I like the controversy and I think it adds to the coin.
Dan has already proven himself with his own original artwork and he has mastered the coining process. I look forward to receiving my coin.
<< <i> I hope it works out for DC, I'd hate to see this negatively affect his business. >>
I would bet this has had a positive effect on his business
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<< <i> I hope it works out for DC, I'd hate to see this negatively affect his business. >>
I would bet this has had a positive effect on his business >>
Short term, yes... but I meant long term.
<< <i>In my (hypothetical) case, the Secret Service is specifically aware of Chinese counterfeiters, and they have CLEARLY
demonstrated no effort to go after them. Might not work in court, but I'd still use it, if necessary. >>
Last weekend, Larry Briggs was giving a talk about counterfeits at the ILNA show, and recounted the Secret Service's inability to detect counterfeits as well as their indifference towards doing anything about it unless the counterfeiter was handed to them on a silver platter. You could call that selective enforcement or you could call it choosing one's battles given limited resources. Setting yourself up to use a defense that you admit might not work in court seems to be a dangerous proposition. It would be a waste to martyr your operation over that.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
DC is just trying to make a buck - by destroying a real one to make a copy of one that doesn't exist. If there is any legal problem, I suspect it would be with the Hobby Protection Act, not counterfeiting laws.
I don't see where anyone is harmed, except for the original Peace Dollars. If someone tries to sell one as a real 1964-D dollar and gets $1,000,000 for it, then there are some fools out there.
I need one for my collection, so I ordered one. It think the price is very fair.
BTW, 64 Peace dollars are worth +- $1280
Dan, Can you tell us what you had to do to the peace dollars to make them strike up? Did you anneal them?
TD
<< <i>Please tell us you've just not updated your website yet!!!
btw, These are SUPER COOL (do you sell them?): >>
The Gallery of Minted items caption on the Moonlight Mint site hasn't been updated yet.
The bimetallic two dollar prototype designs are long gone.
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<< <i>In my (hypothetical) case, the Secret Service is specifically aware of Chinese counterfeiters, and they have CLEARLY
demonstrated no effort to go after them. Might not work in court, but I'd still use it, if necessary. >>
Last weekend, Larry Briggs was giving a talk about counterfeits at the ILNA show, and recounted the Secret Service's inability to detect counterfeits as well as their indifference towards doing anything about it unless the counterfeiter was handed to them on a silver platter. You could call that selective enforcement or you could call it choosing one's battles given limited resources. Setting yourself up to use a defense that you admit might not work in court seems to be a dangerous proposition. It would be a waste to martyr your operation over that. >>
I must say that "not pursuing" is no defense at all.
If a crime is committed, the question is "was a crime committed yes or no?"
Perhaps, the lack of initial response will be a mitigating circumstance come sentencing.
Of course you mean $20 each those dated NO LATER than 1935 & NOT for a single one dated 1964.
In six months someone will be complaining that their spurious 1964 Peace Dollar has been discovered to have artificial toning on it....................
<< <i>Gotta love the controversy behind his coin... That's why I bought one.
Same here. I think I posted earlier in this thread that I would buy one if I collected peace dollars. Now I bought one (or more) anyway. --Jerry
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<< <i>Please tell us you've just not updated your website yet!!!
LINK
Text:
“1964-D” Peace Dollar re-strike. Struck over a Peace dollar dated 1922-1935. Technically this is not a “copy” because it is a genuine Peace Dollar (over-struck), with a date that (according to the government) does not exist. I have not released any of these, and that will depend on a clarification of certain laws (I’m waiting to find out from the government if a “COPY” stamp is required in cases where a genuine coin is altered to show a date that was never released and/or does not exist):
[deleted images to save space]
btw, These are SUPER COOL (do you sell them?):
>>
That web page was out-dated and I hadn't got around to fixing it until just now.
I did sell some of those bi-metallic Astronaut concept $2 coins. I no longer have any available, but they show up on eBay occasionally (search in the Coins category for "concept"). Here are actual struck examples (proof-like & satin):
<< <i>I enjoy seeing D. Carr's innovative designs, but without a copy stamp this issue is a counterfeit.
There are many, many counterfeit coins with dates that were never struck by the US Mint.
The fact that the type was copied makes them counterfeits. >>
The "type" (Peace Dollar) was NOT copied ! It was ALTERED !
<< <i>The source of the metal could be Peace dollars or equivalent alloy planchets, this could not be proven and would not make a difference as the final product is a struck Peace dollar that was not authorized by the US government. >>
I can prove (by demonstrating the whole process) that they were struck over normal Peace dollars and that no metal is added to, or removed from, them.
<< <i>Not stamping "copy" on the coin when you know it could be an illegal action is bizarre. Why not clear it with the SS before release? If the SS will not render a legal opinion, why not stamp "copy" on the coins instead of looking for loopholes and using weasel words in an attempt to get away with it? >>
The Secret Service is NEVER going to issue "permission slips" for ANYTHING, right or wrong. I wanted a few of these coins for myself, and I don't want "COPY" on them. Neither do the other folks that want one.
<< <i>
<< <i>In my (hypothetical) case, the Secret Service is specifically aware of Chinese counterfeiters, and they have CLEARLY
demonstrated no effort to go after them. Might not work in court, but I'd still use it, if necessary. >>
Last weekend, Larry Briggs was giving a talk about counterfeits at the ILNA show, and recounted the Secret Service's inability to detect counterfeits as well as their indifference towards doing anything about it unless the counterfeiter was handed to them on a silver platter. You could call that selective enforcement or you could call it choosing one's battles given limited resources. Setting yourself up to use a defense that you admit might not work in court seems to be a dangerous proposition. It would be a waste to martyr your operation over that. >>
"Selective enforcement" would NOT be my main "defence" in court in the unlikely event things ever went that far. My main defence is simply that NO LAWS WERE BROKEN. If the related laws are vauge and ill-defined, that's Congress' problem, and it is up to them to fix it.
personal use might be a only a misdemeanor, where as distribution is a felony.
Offering these re-strikes for sale on a internet web site is distribution.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>Dan, Can you tell us what you had to do to the peace dollars to make them strike up? Did you anneal them? >>
I don't want to divulge the whole process. But suffice to say that they go through several labor-intensive processes to flatten them and reduce the diameter slightly. As I said before, no metal is ever added or removed.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>heck are the 200 sold out yet gotta be close ...how many have been ordered now dan.. >>
Total number ordered as of this moment: 158
This doesn't include some I sold in person in my local area.
<< <i>Got notice mine have been shipped!
Same here
The pieces are in the likeness of a legal tender U.S. coin, and are obvious counterfeits.
The medals or tokens, shown above, are not coins – they do not include a recognized statement of value.
If the counterfeits are stamped with “COPY” then they are legal just as are Gallery Mint products. Absent the copy stamp, they are exactly like any Chinese counterfeit, similarly unmarked. The counterfeit can be in any media – including limburger cheese – but it will still stink.
It is amazing how many “collectors” appear to have jumped at the chance to buy a counterfeit, yet gripe and complain about the Chinese fakes flooding the market. The poll about properly marked pieces is even more revealing of the attitudes of some.
No further comments from me…let the Treasury Dept. do it’s investigation and make a determination.