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Daniel Carr finally issues 1964-D fantasy overstrike
edix2001
Posts: 3,388 ✭
It's been a long time coming, but Daniel Carr's website is now offering authentic US Peace dollar coins overstruck with his own version of the mysterious 1964-D design.
Carr had struck the coins many months ago, but waited until recently to decide on the legal and ethical issues surrounding releasing the issue.
In the end he chose not to use the Hobby Protection Act "COPY" stamp for several reasons, and has included some security aspects to the new design.
Carr had struck the coins many months ago, but waited until recently to decide on the legal and ethical issues surrounding releasing the issue.
In the end he chose not to use the Hobby Protection Act "COPY" stamp for several reasons, and has included some security aspects to the new design.
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Awesome coin though.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
<< <i>Anyone have a link to the website? >>
link
Also, one of the reasons he states for no "COPY" stamp is:
"2) According to the US Treasury, no 1964 Peace silver dollars survived - so this can't be a copy of one since they don't exist."
Since they were STRUCK, I would hope that that would be deterrent enough and that someone would put "COPY" on them. I, personally, find this deceptive and just a greedy grab at money. To me, it is no better than Chinese counterfeits and someone, somewhere, down the line, WILL be deceptive with these because "they were struck".
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Also, one of the reasons he states for no "COPY" stamp is:
"2) According to the US Treasury, no 1964 Peace silver dollars survived - so this can't be a copy of one since they don't exist."
Since they were STRUCK, I would hope that that would be deterrent enough and that someone would put "COPY" on them. I, personally, find this deceptive and just a greedy grab at money. To me, it is no better than Chinese counterfeits and someone, somewhere, down the line, WILL be deceptive with these because "they were struck". >>
I don't think people are typically fooled by all the fantasy Fugios that were made and collected in TPG slabs.
Me to...double sheesh, but I'm in for one...who knows, may become a collector piece or to say the least a conversation piece.
<< <i>
<< <i>Also, one of the reasons he states for no "COPY" stamp is:
"2) According to the US Treasury, no 1964 Peace silver dollars survived - so this can't be a copy of one since they don't exist."
Since they were STRUCK, I would hope that that would be deterrent enough and that someone would put "COPY" on them. I, personally, find this deceptive and just a greedy grab at money. To me, it is no better than Chinese counterfeits and someone, somewhere, down the line, WILL be deceptive with these because "they were struck". >>
I don't think people are typically fooled by all the fantasy Fugios that were made and collected in TPG slabs. >>
but they have real fugios to compare to.
<< <i>. I, personally, find this deceptive and just a greedy grab at money. To me, it is no better than Chinese counterfeits and someone, somewhere, down the line, WILL be deceptive with these because "they were struck". >>
I COMPLETELY Disagree with you. D Carr is one VERY TALENTED individual who produces high end art. People without talent bash him.
anyone know of any 1933 coins thought not to be in collector's hand, but turned out they were?
ya never know!
in 4 one, anyway. I hope they aren't ordered returned for destruction.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Also, one of the reasons he states for no "COPY" stamp is:
"2) According to the US Treasury, no 1964 Peace silver dollars survived - so this can't be a copy of one since they don't exist."
Since they were STRUCK, I would hope that that would be deterrent enough and that someone would put "COPY" on them. I, personally, find this deceptive and just a greedy grab at money. To me, it is no better than Chinese counterfeits and someone, somewhere, down the line, WILL be deceptive with these because "they were struck". >>
I don't think people are typically fooled by all the fantasy Fugios that were made and collected in TPG slabs. >>
but they have real fugios to compare to. >>
That's a good point. In this case, this are likely to be considered fantasy coins even more given that, government records and lack of verifiable sightings for over almost 50 years indicate there are no real 1964-D Peace dollars at all.
Even so, the description mentions a number of diagnostics that one can use to positively identify his issue.
Personally to avoid confusion in an already confused market I think the word copy should have at least been put somewhere on the coin but maybe not so conspicuous as some of the bold in your face ones.
Edited: BTW I really do like the coin and the 1964 idea.
Lance.
<< <i>
<< <i>. I, personally, find this deceptive and just a greedy grab at money. To me, it is no better than Chinese counterfeits and someone, somewhere, down the line, WILL be deceptive with these because "they were struck". >>
I COMPLETELY Disagree with you. D Carr is one VERY TALENTED individual who produces high end art. People without talent bash him. >>
You can disagree but kind of rude to say "people without talent bash him". You can believe he is talented AND others can believe he isn't. That, however, to me, is not the case here. I, as I stated, find this one deceptive and a greedy grab for money. His "talent" and whether it is "high end art" or not, is something I choose not to discuss because I am specifically NOT trying to bash him or what he likes. This particular issue IS deceptive though and that has NOTHING to do with art (though, the Peace Dollar is NOT HIS art, is it?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>This one seems like he's pushing it.
anyone know of any 1933 coins thought not to be in collector's hand, but turned out they were?
ya never know!
in 4 one, anyway. I hope they aren't ordered returned for destruction. >>
It's been almost 50 years. If any do exist, hopefully this will convince someone to come out of the woodwork, if, in the highly unlikely scenario, that some were stolen back then.
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
<< <i>This particular issue IS deceptive though >>
Is anyone here deceived?
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>
<< <i>This particular issue IS deceptive though >>
Is anyone here deceived? >>
This isn't the general populace nor collecting populace, now is it?
Defend it all you want, if even 1 person is deceived, for whatever reason, and believes it is real and buys it as such, then what? Do you start calling them names like "stupid"?
All he had to do was put "COPY" somewhere on it, but he chose not to.
Again, what is the difference between this and a Chinese counterfeit (of a design that was minted but a date that never was)???
Tell me, what is the difference (besides about $105 with the Chinese counterfeit being cheaper). And, what if the Chinese counterfeiters made counterfeit copies of this piece? Would they really be counterfeit then?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>. I, personally, find this deceptive and just a greedy grab at money. To me, it is no better than Chinese counterfeits and someone, somewhere, down the line, WILL be deceptive with these because "they were struck". >>
I COMPLETELY Disagree with you. D Carr is one VERY TALENTED individual who produces high end art. People without talent bash him. >>
And "I COMPLETELY disagree with you." I can imagine the Chinese saying that they too "produce hing end art".
To me, it comes down to: Did the US Mint produce 1964-D Peace Dollars? If the answer is yes then any coin produced baring the same likeness and date not made by the US Mint should have the word "COPY" stamped into it. Too not put "COPY" on the coin, how is that different then what the counterfeits in Asia are doing?
JMHO
<< <i>Defend it all you want, if even 1 person is deceived, for whatever reason, and believes it is real and buys it as such, then what? >>
If you did buy one, would you agree to provide full disclosure, as part of the purchase agreement, to anyone you may wish to sell it to in the future?
Oh, and yeah, it is likely that some counterfieter may try to counterfiet this design of Carr's as well, since he's already having this problem.
<< <i>$110 ...double sheesh, but I'm in for one... >>
1801 Draped Bust Half-Cent
1826 Capped Bust Quarter
1922 Buffalo Nickel
<< <i>To each his own but I find these "fantasy" coins silly to be polite...what's next...
1801 Draped Bust Half-Cent
1826 Capped Bust Quarter
1922 Buffalo Nickel >>
1931 SLQ
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Over the years I have had to break the bad news to hundreds of people that their coin was a fake. It is not a pleasant duty.
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Sooner or later one of these coins, worn down and antiqued, will be sold for a large sum of money to somebody who doesn't know better. By the time the hidden diagnostics are pointed out to him or her, the seller and the money will be long gone.
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I guarantee that this will happen.
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Tom DeLorey
I think these should be treated like the fantasy Fugios. The Fugios are currently not stamped COPY when transferred and are even certified by TPGs. Does anyone think the Fugios should be stamped COPY?
Regarding people that are fooled, coin collecting is all about knowing what you are buying. I don't know how many times that has been stressed on these boards. Additionally, I'm less concerned about people thinking this is the real thing, because if they think they are buying the real thing, they intend to traffic stolen government property.
The next day they were ordered to return them. I heard this first hand from a man who was working at the Denver Mint that day. This is not hearsay.
TD
<< <i>The day that the 1964-D Peace dollars were struck at the Denver Mint, they were offered to employees at face value. Some employees bought them.
The next day they were ordered to return them. I heard this first hand from a man who was working at the Denver Mint that day. This is not hearsay.
TD >>
Is this verifiable? Do you have the name of the Mint employee and are you able to publish his name? I think people would take this more seriously if we had the name of the employee on record and he had made a verifiable statement.
However, sometimes even public statements from multiple witnesses are not always enough. Joseph Smith had many people on record stating what they witnessed and those are still hotly debated.
BTW, here's the definition of hearsay from Dictionary.com:
<< <i>unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one's direct knowledge: I pay no attention to hearsay. >>
Do any official Mint documents indicate that these were offered at face value and ordered to be surrendered the next day?
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
The next day they were ordered to return them. I heard this first hand from a man who was working at the Denver Mint that day. This is not hearsay.
TD
I recall that was reported in either NN or Coin World at the time. I remember reading about it.
I knew it would happen.
1) We all know that this is a fantasy issue, but secondary buyers may not.
2) The Secret Service, while a legal authority, is not talented enough to distinguish "real or no real" all the time. If they inspect your coin and say it's counterfeit, they'll take it. If they say it's real, they'll take it as illegal to own. If they say it's real and you say it's counterfeit, they'll start asking more questions. No win situation here.
3) I'm leary of his claim that they are legal to own and/or produce. Manufacturing false dies to strike US coins is a big no-no. It doesn't matter that they're overstruck on genuine Peace dollars or that they're fantasy issues. Would a 1930-D Mercury dime be considered a fantasy issue if struck over a genuine 1930-P?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
There appears to be no reasonable information that any real ones exist at all. Any arguments for existence appear to be hearsay using Dictionary.com definitions.
I'd be very happy to hear of official Mint documentation on this and/or having named Mint employees on record telling of their experience. At least, both of these would not be hearsay.
<< <i>I think the thing here is that every 1964-D Peace Dollar should be considered a fantasy piece.
There appears to be no reasonable information that any real ones exist at all. Any arguments for existence appear to be hearsay using Dictionary.com definitions. >>
The Mint Lab kept two specimens of the 1964-D dollar in their counterfeit detection reference for several years. Eventually the Smithsonian asked for one of them for its National Numismatic Collection. The Mint responded by melting both of them.
Did 1964-D Peace dollars ever exist outside of the Denver Mint? Yes.
Do any still exist outside of the Denver Mint? Maybe.
TD
<< <i>
<< <i>I think the thing here is that every 1964-D Peace Dollar should be considered a fantasy piece.
There appears to be no reasonable information that any real ones exist at all. Any arguments for existence appear to be hearsay using Dictionary.com definitions. >>
The Mint Lab kept two specimens of the 1964-D dollar in their counterfeit detection reference for several years. Eventually the Smithsonian asked for one of them for its National Numismatic Collection. The Mint responded by melting both of them.
Did 1964-D Peace dollars ever exist outside of the Denver Mint? Yes.
Do any still exist outside of the Denver Mint? Maybe. >>
Thanks for this information; however, it still indicates that all were destroyed.
As for maybes, there are an infinite number of maybes, but there still appears to no verifiable information contrary to official Mint records that all were destroyed. Arguments for existence seem to be based on, to put it mildly, wishful thinking.
Let's look at what Mr. Carr says:
1) These are not copies of Peace silver dollars - they are privately over-struck on GENUINE government-issue Peace silver dollars that were originally minted from 1922-1935.
2) According to the US Treasury, no 1964 Peace silver dollars survived - so this can't be a copy of one since they don't exist.
3) Defacing of US coins is legal so long as the defacement isn't for fraudulent purposes.
I might be able to accept claim 1 by itself but claim 2 isn't viable. 64-D dollars did exist at one time. Just because they allegedly no longer exist does not mean that one cannot make a copy of one. This is an overstruck coin made to look like another coin. That is a copy.
Another issue is the term "fantasy." Mr. Carr calls his 64-D dollar a "fantasy issue." To my knowledge a fantasy coin is a coin made to look as though it had been produced by a minting authority even though said authority never produced such a coin. For example, a US 7-cent piece or maybe a 2003 barber dime. In this case, the US Mint actually produced 64-D dollars. Mr. Carr's overstrikes/restrikes are not fantasy pieces. They are, as far as I can tell, copies/replicas of a coin actually produced by the US Mint.
Now, Mr. Carr has made some slight changes so that his copies can be identified, and for this I am glad, but just to make sure no one is duped, and to make sure the whole project is legal, it would have been wise to include the word "copy" somewhere on the coin, even if discretely.
I would be more comfortable with COPY stamped on Carr's piece if the Fugios were also stamped COPY; however, people seem to be pretty silent on this or against this....
<< <i>The day that the 1964-D Peace dollars were struck at the Denver Mint, they were offered to employees at face value. Some employees bought them.
The next day they were ordered to return them. I heard this first hand from a man who was working at the Denver Mint that day. This is not hearsay.
TD
I recall that was reported in either NN or Coin World at the time. I remember reading about it. >>
Just the fact that people have heard tale of these existing should be enough to convince people that someone will attempt to pass these as real.
<< <i>I haven't heard anyone respond to my question on stamping COPY on counterfeit Fugios.
I would be more comfortable with COPY stamped on Carr's piece if the Fugios were also stamped COPY; however, people seem to be pretty silent or against this.... >>
I think copies should be stamped "copy." The fake fugio cents should be identified as such.
<< <i>
<< <i>The day that the 1964-D Peace dollars were struck at the Denver Mint, they were offered to employees at face value. Some employees bought them.
The next day they were ordered to return them. I heard this first hand from a man who was working at the Denver Mint that day. This is not hearsay.
TD
I recall that was reported in either NN or Coin World at the time. I remember reading about it. >>
Just the fact that people have heard tale of these existing should be enough to convince people that someone will attempt to pass these as real. >>
In this case, the buyer would be under the fantasy of trafficking stolen government property. People intending to traffic stolen government property usually know what they are doing has risks.
If you don't think it could cause confusion just hand one to a hundred different people on the street and ask them what it is. Well... maybe that's a bad idea; but my point is that while folks knowledgable in coins would know it is fake the average person would not. There should have been some sort of clear marking on the coin that even an average person who is not a coin person would say it is a fake without having to look it up on the internet. Perhaps the notation could have been done on the edge of the coin so as to not mess up the "look" of it.
<< <i>Daniel Carr finally issues 1964-D fantasy overstrike
>>
I do believe Mr.Car has finally crossed over the line this time.His talents and skill has seem to have driven him beyond the point.He is indeed well known for his artistry and talent but this ..Fantasy Coin..will indeed be a controversial piece.It is not a genuine coin ..but..indeed looks like one and seems to be one in all respect....JMHO...
<< <i>It sure looks nice but in my opinion, it was a bad idea... a real bad idea. I won't bother to look up and post the definition of "opinion" in the dictionary as I figure y'all know what it means...
If you don't think it could cause confusion just hand one to a hundred different people on the street and ask them what it is. Well... maybe that's a bad idea; but my point is that while folks knowledgable in coins would know it is fake the average person would not. There should have been some sort of clear marking on the coin that even an average person who is not a coin person would say it is a fake without having to look it up on the internet. Perhaps the notation could have been done on the edge of the coin so as to not mess up the "look" of it. >>
Yes, that would have been good. COPY or REPLICA on the edge would have been good.
<< <i>
<< <i>Daniel Carr finally issues 1964-D fantasy overstrike
>>
I do believe Mr.Car has finally crossed over the line this time.His talents and skill has seem to have driven him beyond the point.He is indeed well known for his artistry and talent but this ..Fantasy Coin..will indeed be a controversial piece.It is not a genuine coin ..but..indeed looks like one and seems to be one in all respect....JMHO... >>
I really don't think we should call this a fantasy. It's a copy of a coin that the US Mint once produced.