How convenient... while Carr pockets $110 to boot. >>
Soapbox, he can charge a million bucks if he wanted to, why do you care? You going to make a fuss about what he charges? If so, you should go after every slimy jerk charging over $0.01 for 1909-s VSB pennies or anyone selling coins for more than you deem acceptable.
To some, art is pretty designs or pretty music... to me, I gravitate towards the conceptual, and as such I am really moved by these.
At its heart, this coin is a lovingly rendered homage to the truly elusive 1964-D Peace Dollar, and as a physical thing it promises to establish an in-hand connection to a coin that so far has proven lost to history.
Moreover, this coin asks whether defacing a U.S. coin to look like another U.S. coin constitutes fraud in the context of the law... and the question is made even more interesting by the fact that the coin it emulates is one that the government itself claims does not exist.
As I see it, this "coin" walks a very interesting line through the existing laws that pertain to it, and I, for one, consider whatever unfolds next to be the most interesting aspect of this art work.
As for the price, less say $25.00 for real Peace Dollar planchets, plus the cost of other materials & equipment usage, and I'd say $110 is a great deal... I don't think anyone else could accomplish what Daniel Carr has for the price.
"As I see it, this "coin" walks a very interesting line through the existing laws that pertain to it, and I, for one, consider whatever unfolds next to be the most interesting aspect of this art work."
Well, me too, more or less, and I am not spending $110 to do so
<< <i>I agree whole heartedly, as long as facts don't get confused with hearsay >>
Not to worry- I did a quick re-reading of the thread, and although there are a number of claims that the coins used to exist, I didn't see any posts claiming that the coins exist today.
There were a couple of claims that the the coins don't exist, though.
<< <i>I agree whole heartedly, as long as facts don't get confused with hearsay >>
Not to worry- I did a quick re-reading of the thread, and although there are a number of claims that the coins used to exist, I didn't see any posts claiming that the coins exist today.
There were a couple of claims that the the coins don't exist, though. >>
There was a claim that Mint employees could buy the coins when they existed but that seems to be unsubstantiated.
I'm also familiar with claims that the coins are unlikely to exist; however, if they do, the facts seem to be: (a) they are property of the US government, (b) they were never issued, (c) they should be returned, and (d) they have been ordered to be destroyed. This is from my reading of this Mint notice. This official notice seems to contradict the seemingly unofficial and unsubstantiated claim that they were issued to Mint employees. It is also likely that the Smithsonian's request for a specimen was turned down because of the destruction order.
<< <i>There was a claim that Mint employees could buy the coins when they existed but that seems to be unsubstantiated. >>
Yes, I noted that there were posts to the effect that the coins actually existed at one time. The unsubstantiated claim you mentioned wasn't that the coins exist today, though.
<< <i>3) Defacing of US coins is legal so long as the defacement isn't for fraudulent purposes.
I am a big fan of DC. But I have some serious issue with the above statement. Let's see now, we will take a Peace Dollar and overstrike it and charge $110 for it. That's really close to fraudulent, Dan. >>
Not at all. Perfectly legal as I understand it. The price charged is irrelevant. --Jerry
<< <i>The bottom line is the object in question is NOT a coin... a phony, a replica , a fantasy coin, perhaps, but not a coin and therefore, it is certainly not worth the asking price.
This whole thing is nothing but greed, plain and simple. >>
Wow. So this great country is founded on the economic principles of a free market, where one can create a product for which there is a demand and sell at a market price, is actually based on one of the 7 deadly sins. Our founding fathers must be rolling over in their grave.
BTW, Mr. Shoebox. Which eastern block country are you from, anyway?
<< <i>There was a claim that Mint employees could buy the coins when they existed but that seems to be unsubstantiated. >>
Yes, I noted that there were posts to the effect that the coins actually existed at one time. The unsubstantiated claim you mentioned wasn't that the coins exist today, though. >>
Regarding whether any coins might exist today, I've stated that there appears to be no evidence that any coins exist today. There also appears to be no evidence that coins could have left US government facilities legally. I believe this to be true and do not believe any non-hearsay facts have been provided to provide evidence that any coins do in fact exist or could have legally made their way into collector hands. I also stated that efforts to suggest that coins may exist today seem to be based on wishful thinking.
That aside, I do want to make it clear that I would be very happy to hear of verifiable facts that coins did leave the US government facilities legitimately and make their way to collectors. I would also like there to be real 1964-D Peace dollars in existence; however, there appears to be nothing to suggest that this is true. If there are coins in existence, I think it would be great for at least one specimen to make its way into strong hands and be announced to the world as such. I think an example of strong hands would be a foreign head of state.
<< <i>Regarding whether any coins exist today, I've stated that there seems to be no evidence that any coins exist today. I believe this to be true and do not believe any non-hearsay facts have been provided to provide evidence that any coins do in fact exist. >>
I don't think anybody here has claimed otherwise.
<< <i>I also stated that efforts to suggest that coins may exist today seem to be based on wishful thinking. >>
I'm not sure scepticism of government claims constitutes "wishful thinking".
<< <i>I also stated that efforts to suggest that coins may exist today seem to be based on wishful thinking. >>
I'm not sure scepticism of government claims constitutes "wishful thinking". >>
I think that's debatable, depending on the circumstance
In any event, until there are verifiable sightings of real 1964-D Peace dollars, I have no problems with Carr's piece. I think we have to go on facts, which is that there is no evidence that any exist, and not on "wishful thinking" that some do exist.
If some were to come to light, things may or may not be different (given the Fugio and Kellogg situation), but I don't think that speculation is actionable at this point. As mentioned, I would love for a real one to show up, but until then, the evidence is that there are none. As there seem to be none, it seems that the Hobby Protection Act may not even apply....
The former Denver Mint employee whom I spoke with about the 1964-D Peace dollars was quite emphatic that the Mint was very serious about recovering all of the coins that they sold to the employees. He said that the employees who had bought the coins were threatened with the loss of their job if they did not return the coins.
Apparently they succeeded, and can now pretend that they never sold the coins in the first place. If you repeat the same lie enough times, then it becomes the truth, doesn't it?
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>The former Denver Mint employee whom I spoke with about the 1964-D Peace dollars was quite emphatic that the Mint was very serious about recovering all of the coins that they sold to the employees. He said that the employees who had bought the coins were threatened with the loss of their job if they did not return the coins. >>
Can you release the name of the former Denver Mint employee? Has he made or is he able to make this statement on the record? This would be good information to add to our understanding of these coins if it was verifiable or at least attributable to a real person.
<< <i>Apparently they succeeded, and can now pretend that they never sold the coins in the first place. If you repeat the same lie enough times, then it becomes the truth, doesn't it? >>
Repeating something certainly seems to work better than never saying something at all. You don't think it's funny that no one is willing to say this on the record? We even have whistle blowers for the mob. Surely, at least one US government Mint employee would be willing to speak out on this. To me, this seems very suspicious.
<< <i>The object obviously is made with the intention of it strongly resembling a silver dollar. Just because the coin community is fully aware of its origins, does not necessarily mean that the general public won't be easily duped.
If one carefully reads the page on his website, Carr adds a disclaimer that puts the onus on the buyer of these objects.In other words, whoever buys one, HE has to be careful what he does with it.
How convenient... while Carr pockets $110 to boot. >>
(Edited) The general public can't even begin to understand why any of us would pay $100 for a Lincoln cent much less know what a 1964-D Peace Dollar is to get duped into buying it.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Dan Brown, the Denver dealer, later related to me that Fern Miller, superintendent of the Denver Mint at the time, permitted Mint employees to ac-quire examples of the 1964 Peace dollar for face value, as was often the custom on new coins where it was struck. No thought was given that they would not be released. When it was determined that the issue would be melted, the superintendent requested that all pieces be returned. Whether or not any escaped has been a matter of debate ever since that time!
Numismatic Information
Commentary: The 1964-D Peace dollar has been the Holy Grail of numismatists. Does a specimen exist, and if so, where is it? Maryland dealer Bob Cohen spent a great deal of time and advertising money in the 1960s and 1970s trying to track one down, with no success.
During the course of writing this book, I was told that a qualified professional numismatist had seen one, and that Harry J. Forman knew who that person was. Harry said that he had heard that [had seen one. But, I hadn't, so the rumor came 'round full circle!
In a conversation, Marion Russell told me she believed that one was given to President Lyndon Johnson in 1965, and is probably with the Johnson papers. This information came to her from Mint Director Eva Adams. Another source, believed by me to be reliable, stated that another 1964-D dollar was sold by Eva Adams to a leading eastern numismatist. Perhaps in some future year, a 1964-D will emerge to delight a new generation of numismatists,
An interesting narrative: Thomas K. DeLorey recalled a situation which took place when he was senior authenticator at the American Numismatic Association Certification Service at ANA Headquarters in Colorado Springs: (Letter to the author, September 14, 1992.)
While I was at ANACS I talked with a visitor who saw the balance scale in the ANA Headquarters rotunda (where the scale was in the days before the addition was put on the build-ing) and said that he used to use one of them up at the Denver Mint. I asked him if he had worked there when the 1964 Peace dollars were struck, and if it were true that employees were allowed to buy them on the day they were struck.
He said he had, and that he remembered that the word was passed that any employee who wished could buy two of them from the cashier on the way out. He didn't bother, but several people did. The next day as he was coming in, all employees were told that anybody who had bought them and didn't return them would be fired. Many did, but one guy he knew said he had spent them in a bar on the way home the night before, and did not lose his job. The man was retired when I spoke to him, and had no reason to lie.
Obviously, not proof of existence, but it sure seems like some *could* exist without resorting to wishful thinking.
Her order was implemented, but rumors spread that Superintendent Miller had permitted Mint employees to acquire examples at face val ue, and, despite her re - quest and guarantee that all be returned, not all were. Adams was called before a government committee to testify on the matter. Under oath, Adams insisted that “all produced coins were accounted for and melted . . . none was preserved!”
So- the Director of the Mint claimed under oath that "all produced coins were accounted for and melted . . . none was preserved!”, even though it also appears that at least a couple survived, to be melted at a later time.
This is the sort of thing that makes me suspect of government claims regarding these coins.
Thanks for that link and post. It does seem like there are a number of interesting, yet unsubstantiated, stories on this. In the entire post, no one has claimed to actually see one. The Dan Brown / Fern Miller story reminds me of the Rob Lovett / John Haseltine CSA cent story. This is part of what makes unearthing numismatic history interesting.
As superintendent of the Denver Mint, did Fern Miller have the legal authority to release the coins? If not, then technically would any coins that left under Fern's "approval" have been unauthorized and illegally distributed?
Regarding the Mint employee, The man was retired when I spoke to him, and had no reason to lie. Is it correct to also assume that this person had no reason to provide his name?
Out of the entire post, I thought the most entertaining part was this:
<< <i>During the course of writing this book, I was told that a qualified professional numismatist had seen one, and that Harry J. Forman knew who that person was. Harry said that he had heard that I had seen one. But, I hadn't, so the rumor came 'round full circle! >>
Admittedly (and unfortunately), googling for whatever crap you can find on the internet is a poor substitute for actual research. From what little I've seen though, believing that it's possible some of these coins might actually exist is, while not a verified fact, at least more than just wishful thinking.
<< <i>Admittedly (and unfortunately), googling for whatever crap you can find on the internet is a poor substitute for actual research. From what little I've seen though, believing that it's possible some of these coins might actually exist is, while not a verified fact, at least more than just wishful thinking. >>
To me, the references to true examples of the coin seem to be a number of unsubstantiated stories. Am I incorrect? If not, I feel these are not very useful for serious discussion and amount to wishful thinking.
However, your reference to the May, 2010 Numismatist seems to be a much more interesting avenue of investigation:
<< <i>So- the Director of the Mint claimed under oath that "all produced coins were accounted for and melted . . . none was preserved!”, even though it also appears that at least a couple survived, to be melted at a later time. >>
<< <i>To me, the references to true examples of the coin seem to be a number of unsubstantiated stories. Am I incorrect? >>
Not as far as I can tell. On the other hand, there doesn't appear to be any benefit accruing to those relating the stories, so what might be the motive, other than to relate a particular experience? Again, obviously, that's not proof of anything.
But then again, the fact that none have been confirmed to currently exist is not evidence that none do. Wouldn't you agree?
edited to add... it's late- I'm out of here. Have a good one!
Wow. I knew these coins would be a polarizing element. The reaction, so far, is even more than I expected.
I like the way Artist put it, especially the last sentence:
<< <i>I for one, love the artistry behind this venture. To some, art is pretty designs or pretty music... to me, I gravitate towards the conceptual, and as such I am really moved by these. At its heart, this coin is a lovingly rendered homage to the truly elusive 1964-D Peace Dollar, and as a physical thing it promises to establish an in-hand connection to a coin that so far has proven lost to history. Moreover, this coin asks whether defacing a U.S. coin to look like another U.S. coin constitutes fraud in the context of the law... and the question is made even more interesting by the fact that the coin it emulates is one that the government itself claims does not exist. As I see it, this "coin" walks a very interesting line through the existing laws that pertain to it, and I, for one, consider whatever unfolds next to be the most interesting aspect of this art work. >>
When Boggs created his paper money, a major part of the art was the "performance" he gave in attempting to tender it. Half of creating art is seeing if you can actually do it. I wanted to see if I could actually make these, both technically and legally. Both aspects are part of the work.
Imagine that you are working at the Denver Mint in 1964-1965. And you know what we all know now. You are left alone in a room with a coin press and 1964 Peace dollar dies, to have your way with it. What would it be like to make some of these coins for yourself ? That is a fantasy that I've had for a long time, and probably similar to other fantasies that other collectors have had. I've managed to make mine somewhat tangible.
<< <i>Those that buy the D Carr items, do you buy this hoping they increase in value or just like to collect the items he makes? >>
I like what he makes. I surely could go the other way because I have most all of his sub 100 mintage pieces, and any one who follows the series know some pieces are 10x issue. But in the end it's the quality of the work that has inspired me from the time I found out he does his own cnc work and even wrote the program to code it. I keep a piece in the shop by my machine just for that little push to get it correct the first time by double checking everything before I hit 'GO'..
As far as this coin, knowing some of what it took to get it right, plus the stones to not defile it with 'COPY', made this purchase for me was a no brainer. >>
I was not aware that his stuff was in that high demand to bring 10 times original offering price. WOW, i have been asleep at the keyboard. I did look once and thought the pieces he made with the planchets/scraps he found in the coin press he bought from the mnt was cool.
I told my wife not to buy all that avon stuff!!!!!!! I wish she would have listened for once.....
Maybe i do need one of the 64's. Is there a max mintage number?
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
I did not see D Carrs post before i ask the mintage numbers.
I spent a little time over on his site, i was impressed. I thought his main line was the parody quarters that i was not impressed with. I see those at a lot of shows and thought that was mainly what he did.
I was wrong. I found something there for 75 bucks i may have to have before this dollar in question.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>As for the mintage, the final total is yet to be determined. It will definitely be less than 2,000. Perhaps a lot less. Not sure yet. >>
If someone pays 10 grand for this coin because they thought and/or was told it was the real thing, will you reimburse this individual's money when they learn it's not a genuine 1964-D Peace dollar? It's not like everybody will be aware of the origin of this product.
Hopefully, no-one will buy this without proper certification but the wheels appear to be well greased already.
Take a look at the 2005 to 2010 circulating coins. We have TGS's certifying those coins as business strikes and people buying them without having any concrete information from the manufacturers, the US Mint on how they are produced.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I ordered one as soon as I saw this thread. Then I read every reply, pro and con. It was, and still is, a genuine Peace Dollar, and more real than the trillions of dollars in funny money issued by the Federal Reserve. So I exchanged some of those for one of these. Not a bad deal at all.
Good deals with: goldman86 mkman123 Wingsrule wondercoin segoja Tccuga OKCC LindeDad and others.
<< <i>If someone pays 10 grand for this coin because they thought and/or was told it was the real thing >>
They would probably either keep it a secret because they seek to acquire illegal-to-own government property or they expect to turn it over to the Secret Service as any real ones are illegal to own, per the 1973 Mint newsletter.
<< <i>If someone pays 10 grand for this coin because they thought and/or was told it was the real thing >>
They would probably either keep it a secret because they seek to acquire illegal-to-own government property or they expect to turn it over to the Secret Service as any real ones are illegal to own, per the 1973 Mint newsletter. >>
That is if they are aware of all you presume.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>If someone pays 10 grand for this coin because they thought and/or was told it was the real thing >>
They would probably either keep it a secret because they seek to acquire illegal-to-own government property or they expect to turn it over to the Secret Service as any real ones are illegal to own, per the 1973 Mint newsletter. >>
That is if they are aware of all you presume. >>
Is that too much to expect for someone spending 10 grand on a coin?
<< <i>If someone pays 10 grand for this coin because they thought and/or was told it was the real thing >>
They would probably either keep it a secret because they seek to acquire illegal-to-own government property or they expect to turn it over to the Secret Service as any real ones are illegal to own, per the 1973 Mint newsletter. >>
That is if they are aware of all you presume. >>
Is that too much to expect for someone spending 10 grand on a coin? >>
It can be sold to anyone who has heard they were once produced. The US Mint doesn't make a habit of producing and destroying coins. The forums here are a very small circle of confides when compared to the millions who collect coins. No, I don't believe everyone will question the origin of this product.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>If someone pays 10 grand for this coin because they thought and/or was told it was the real thing >>
They would probably either keep it a secret because they seek to acquire illegal-to-own government property or they expect to turn it over to the Secret Service as any real ones are illegal to own, per the 1973 Mint newsletter. >>
That is if they are aware of all you presume. >>
Is that too much to expect for someone spending 10 grand on a coin? >>
It can be sold to anyone who has heard they were once produced. The US Mint doesn't make a habit of producing and destroying coins. The forums here are a very small circle of confides when compared to the millions who collect coins. No, I don't believe everyone will question the origin of this product. >>
IMO, people spending $10k on a coin need to take responsibility for their decisions. This is true for a $500 coin and certainly true for a $10k coin.
<< <i>Dan, Can you give a brief summary of how your dies are made? Is a copy machine used? Many have grumbled about the $110 price but I am sure the cost of making the dies must be substantial? ... >>
I'd prefer not to disclose the process because there are those out there that might use the information with less-honorable intentions. Some will say that what I've done here is not entirely "honorable". I say that it is, and, at least with me doing it, everything is above board and full disclosure is made.
Fortunately, this is not something the typical small shop could do, due to the specialized equipment and techniques employed.
It took five pairs of dies made to get the look I wanted. My costs in producing dies is not great, until you figure in the value of time. It also takes a lot of steps and a lot of work to process the host coins before they are even over-struck.
I can swear on a stack of Constitutions that I have witnessed with my own eyes a peace dollar, bearing a 1964 date, leave the minting room at the Denver mint. There are several living witnesses besides myself. It was not removed clandestinely, nor under the circumstances described by Mr. DeLorey involving purchase at the mint cashier. I have no reason to believe it was ever returned to the mint.
Comments
<< <i>
How convenient... while Carr pockets $110 to boot. >>
Soapbox, he can charge a million bucks if he wanted to, why do you care? You going to make a fuss about what he charges? If so, you should go after every slimy jerk charging over $0.01 for 1909-s VSB pennies or anyone selling coins for more than you deem acceptable.
I have no clue if it's legal or not.
<< <i>The object obviously is made with the intention of it strongly resembling a believed-to-be non-existent silver dollar. >>
You're welcome for the correction.
To some, art is pretty designs or pretty music... to me, I gravitate towards the conceptual, and as such I am really moved by these.
At its heart, this coin is a lovingly rendered homage to the truly elusive 1964-D Peace Dollar, and as a physical thing it promises to establish an in-hand connection to a coin that so far has proven lost to history.
Moreover, this coin asks whether defacing a U.S. coin to look like another U.S. coin constitutes fraud in the context of the law... and the question is made even more interesting by the fact that the coin it emulates is one that the government itself claims does not exist.
As I see it, this "coin" walks a very interesting line through the existing laws that pertain to it, and I, for one, consider whatever unfolds next to be the most interesting aspect of this art work.
As for the price, less say $25.00 for real Peace Dollar planchets, plus the cost of other materials & equipment usage, and I'd say $110 is a great deal... I don't think anyone else could accomplish what Daniel Carr has for the price.
My $.02 ~ Artist
>>>My Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>The object obviously is made with the intention of it strongly resembling a believed-to-be non-existent silver dollar. >>
You're welcome for the correction.
At some point, you have to go with your beliefs based on the evidence in front of you
<< <i>At some point, you have to go with your beliefs based on the evidence in front of you
Nothing wrong with that, as long as beliefs don't get confused with facts.
<< <i>
<< <i>At some point, you have to go with your beliefs based on the evidence in front of you
Nothing wrong with that, as long as beliefs don't get confused with facts.
I agree whole heartedly, as long as facts don't get confused with hearsay
Well, me too, more or less, and I am not spending $110 to do so
Eric
<< <i>I agree whole heartedly, as long as facts don't get confused with hearsay
Not to worry- I did a quick re-reading of the thread, and although there are a number of claims that the coins used to exist, I didn't see any posts claiming that the coins exist today.
There were a couple of claims that the the coins don't exist, though.
<< <i>
<< <i>I agree whole heartedly, as long as facts don't get confused with hearsay
Not to worry- I did a quick re-reading of the thread, and although there are a number of claims that the coins used to exist, I didn't see any posts claiming that the coins exist today.
There were a couple of claims that the the coins don't exist, though.
There was a claim that Mint employees could buy the coins when they existed but that seems to be unsubstantiated.
I'm also familiar with claims that the coins are unlikely to exist; however, if they do, the facts seem to be: (a) they are property of the US government, (b) they were never issued, (c) they should be returned, and (d) they have been ordered to be destroyed. This is from my reading of this Mint notice. This official notice seems to contradict the seemingly unofficial and unsubstantiated claim that they were issued to Mint employees. It is also likely that the Smithsonian's request for a specimen was turned down because of the destruction order.
<< <i>There was a claim that Mint employees could buy the coins when they existed but that seems to be unsubstantiated. >>
Yes, I noted that there were posts to the effect that the coins actually existed at one time. The unsubstantiated claim you mentioned wasn't that the coins exist today, though.
<< <i>3) Defacing of US coins is legal so long as the defacement isn't for fraudulent purposes.
I am a big fan of DC. But I have some serious issue with the above statement. Let's see now, we will take a Peace Dollar and overstrike it and charge $110 for it. That's really close to fraudulent, Dan. >>
Not at all. Perfectly legal as I understand it. The price charged is irrelevant. --Jerry
<< <i>The bottom line is the object in question is NOT a coin... a phony, a replica , a fantasy coin, perhaps, but not a coin and therefore, it is certainly not worth the asking price.
This whole thing is nothing but greed, plain and simple. >>
Wow. So this great country is founded on the economic principles of a free market, where one can create a product for which there is a demand and sell at a market price, is actually based on one of the 7 deadly sins. Our founding fathers must be rolling over in their grave.
BTW, Mr. Shoebox. Which eastern block country are you from, anyway?
--Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>There was a claim that Mint employees could buy the coins when they existed but that seems to be unsubstantiated. >>
Yes, I noted that there were posts to the effect that the coins actually existed at one time. The unsubstantiated claim you mentioned wasn't that the coins exist today, though. >>
Regarding whether any coins might exist today, I've stated that there appears to be no evidence that any coins exist today. There also appears to be no evidence that coins could have left US government facilities legally. I believe this to be true and do not believe any non-hearsay facts have been provided to provide evidence that any coins do in fact exist or could have legally made their way into collector hands. I also stated that efforts to suggest that coins may exist today seem to be based on wishful thinking.
That aside, I do want to make it clear that I would be very happy to hear of verifiable facts that coins did leave the US government facilities legitimately and make their way to collectors. I would also like there to be real 1964-D Peace dollars in existence; however, there appears to be nothing to suggest that this is true. If there are coins in existence, I think it would be great for at least one specimen to make its way into strong hands and be announced to the world as such. I think an example of strong hands would be a foreign head of state.
<< <i>Regarding whether any coins exist today, I've stated that there seems to be no evidence that any coins exist today. I believe this to be true and do not believe any non-hearsay facts have been provided to provide evidence that any coins do in fact exist. >>
I don't think anybody here has claimed otherwise.
<< <i>I also stated that efforts to suggest that coins may exist today seem to be based on wishful thinking. >>
I'm not sure scepticism of government claims constitutes "wishful thinking".
Now, now, that another fantasy piece all together.
Eric
<< <i>
<< <i>I also stated that efforts to suggest that coins may exist today seem to be based on wishful thinking. >>
I'm not sure scepticism of government claims constitutes "wishful thinking".
I think that's debatable, depending on the circumstance
In any event, until there are verifiable sightings of real 1964-D Peace dollars, I have no problems with Carr's piece. I think we have to go on facts, which is that there is no evidence that any exist, and not on "wishful thinking" that some do exist.
If some were to come to light, things may or may not be different (given the Fugio and Kellogg situation), but I don't think that speculation is actionable at this point. As mentioned, I would love for a real one to show up, but until then, the evidence is that there are none. As there seem to be none, it seems that the Hobby Protection Act may not even apply....
<< <i>I think that's debatable, depending on the circumstance
Ahhh- government worker, I take it...
Apparently they succeeded, and can now pretend that they never sold the coins in the first place. If you repeat the same lie enough times, then it becomes the truth, doesn't it?
TD
Hey Virgil, come look see, it's a 64-d Peace dollar!...... Well I'll be! Don't that just beat all....
<< <i>The former Denver Mint employee whom I spoke with about the 1964-D Peace dollars was quite emphatic that the Mint was very serious about recovering all of the coins that they sold to the employees. He said that the employees who had bought the coins were threatened with the loss of their job if they did not return the coins. >>
Can you release the name of the former Denver Mint employee? Has he made or is he able to make this statement on the record? This would be good information to add to our understanding of these coins if it was verifiable or at least attributable to a real person.
<< <i>Apparently they succeeded, and can now pretend that they never sold the coins in the first place. If you repeat the same lie enough times, then it becomes the truth, doesn't it? >>
Repeating something certainly seems to work better than never saying something at all. You don't think it's funny that no one is willing to say this on the record? We even have whistle blowers for the mob. Surely, at least one US government Mint employee would be willing to speak out on this. To me, this seems very suspicious.
<< <i>
Hey Virgil, come look see, it's 64-d Peace dollar!...... Well I'll be! Don't that just beat all.... >>
OMG
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
<< <i>
<< <i>I would have REALLY liked this coin had it been an obviously overstruck 1964/24-D Peace dollar. >>
Unlikely to happen because 1924-D Peace dollars are so rare.
Ha! I would pay way more than $110 for a 1924-D Peace dollar version. Or even just a plain old 1924-D Peace dollar Daniel didn't mess with.
Lance.
<< <i>The object obviously is made with the intention of it strongly resembling a silver dollar. Just because the coin community is fully aware of its origins, does not necessarily mean that the general public won't be easily duped.
If one carefully reads the page on his website, Carr adds a disclaimer that puts the onus on the buyer of these objects.In other words, whoever buys one, HE has to be careful what he does with it.
How convenient... while Carr pockets $110 to boot. >>
(Edited)
The general public can't even begin to understand why any of us would pay $100 for a Lincoln cent much less know what a 1964-D Peace Dollar is to get duped into buying it.
The name is LEE!
https://photos.app.goo.gl/kXuvAtzYa5MvVP169
<< <i>i wonder what the secret service would say about this idea? >>
I'm sure we'll find out eventually. As mentioned, they seem to care about some pieces and other ones not at all.
Dan Brown, the Denver dealer, later related to me that Fern Miller, superintendent of the Denver Mint at the time, permitted Mint employees to ac-quire examples of the 1964 Peace dollar for face value, as was often the custom on new coins where it was struck. No thought was given that they would not be released. When it was determined that the issue would be melted, the superintendent requested that all pieces be returned. Whether or not any escaped has been a matter of debate ever since that time!
Numismatic Information
Commentary: The 1964-D Peace dollar has been the Holy Grail of numismatists. Does a specimen exist, and if so, where is it? Maryland dealer Bob Cohen spent a great deal of time and advertising money in the 1960s and 1970s trying to track one down, with no success.
During the course of writing this book, I was told that a qualified professional numismatist had seen one, and that Harry J. Forman knew who that person was. Harry said that he had heard that [had seen one. But, I hadn't, so the rumor came 'round full circle!
In a conversation, Marion Russell told me she believed that one was given to President Lyndon Johnson in 1965, and is probably with the Johnson papers. This information came to her from Mint Director Eva Adams. Another source, believed by me to be reliable, stated that another 1964-D dollar was sold by Eva Adams to a leading eastern numismatist. Perhaps in some future year, a 1964-D will emerge to delight a new generation of numismatists,
An interesting narrative: Thomas K. DeLorey recalled a situation which took place when he was senior authenticator at the American Numismatic Association Certification Service at ANA Headquarters in Colorado Springs: (Letter to the author, September 14, 1992.)
While I was at ANACS I talked with a visitor who saw the balance scale in the ANA Headquarters rotunda (where the scale was in the days before the addition was put on the build-ing) and said that he used to use one of them up at the Denver Mint. I asked him if he had worked there when the 1964 Peace dollars were struck, and if it were true that employees were allowed to buy them on the day they were struck.
He said he had, and that he remembered that the word was passed that any employee who wished could buy two of them from the cashier on the way out. He didn't bother, but several people did. The next day as he was coming in, all employees were told that anybody who had bought them and didn't return them would be fired. Many did, but one guy he knew said he had spent them in a bar on the way home the night before, and did not lose his job. The man was retired when I spoke to him, and had no reason to lie.
Obviously, not proof of existence, but it sure seems like some *could* exist without resorting to wishful thinking.
Her order was implemented,
but rumors
spread that Superintendent
Miller
had permitted Mint
employees to acquire
examples at face val ue,
and, despite her re -
quest and guarantee
that all be returned,
not all were. Adams
was called before a
government committee
to testify on the matter. Under
oath, Adams insisted that “all produced
coins were accounted for and
melted . . . none was preserved!”
So- the Director of the Mint claimed under oath that "all produced coins were accounted for and melted . . . none was preserved!”, even though it also appears that at least a couple survived, to be melted at a later time.
This is the sort of thing that makes me suspect of government claims regarding these coins.
As superintendent of the Denver Mint, did Fern Miller have the legal authority to release the coins? If not, then technically would any coins that left under Fern's "approval" have been unauthorized and illegally distributed?
Regarding the Mint employee, The man was retired when I spoke to him, and had no reason to lie. Is it correct to also assume that this person had no reason to provide his name?
Out of the entire post, I thought the most entertaining part was this:
<< <i>During the course of writing this book, I was told that a qualified professional numismatist had seen one, and that Harry J. Forman knew who that person was. Harry said that he had heard that I had seen one. But, I hadn't, so the rumor came 'round full circle! >>
<< <i>Admittedly (and unfortunately), googling for whatever crap you can find on the internet is a poor substitute for actual research. From what little I've seen though, believing that it's possible some of these coins might actually exist is, while not a verified fact, at least more than just wishful thinking. >>
To me, the references to true examples of the coin seem to be a number of unsubstantiated stories. Am I incorrect? If not, I feel these are not very useful for serious discussion and amount to wishful thinking.
However, your reference to the May, 2010 Numismatist seems to be a much more interesting avenue of investigation:
<< <i>So- the Director of the Mint claimed under oath that "all produced coins were accounted for and melted . . . none was preserved!”, even though it also appears that at least a couple survived, to be melted at a later time. >>
<< <i>To me, the references to true examples of the coin seem to be a number of unsubstantiated stories. Am I incorrect? >>
Not as far as I can tell. On the other hand, there doesn't appear to be any benefit accruing to those relating the stories, so what might be the motive, other than to relate a particular experience? Again, obviously, that's not proof of anything.
But then again, the fact that none have been confirmed to currently exist is not evidence that none do. Wouldn't you agree?
edited to add... it's late- I'm out of here. Have a good one!
I knew these coins would be a polarizing element. The reaction, so far, is even more than I expected.
I like the way Artist put it, especially the last sentence:
<< <i>I for one, love the artistry behind this venture.
To some, art is pretty designs or pretty music... to me, I gravitate towards the conceptual, and as such I am really moved by these.
At its heart, this coin is a lovingly rendered homage to the truly elusive 1964-D Peace Dollar, and as a physical thing it promises to
establish an in-hand connection to a coin that so far has proven lost to history.
Moreover, this coin asks whether defacing a U.S. coin to look like another U.S. coin constitutes fraud in the context of the law...
and the question is made even more interesting by the fact that the coin it emulates is one that the government itself claims does not exist.
As I see it, this "coin" walks a very interesting line through the existing laws that pertain to it, and I, for one, consider whatever unfolds
next to be the most interesting aspect of this art work.
>>
When Boggs created his paper money, a major part of the art was the "performance" he gave in attempting to tender it.
Half of creating art is seeing if you can actually do it. I wanted to see if I could actually make these, both technically and legally.
Both aspects are part of the work.
Imagine that you are working at the Denver Mint in 1964-1965. And you know what we all know now. You are left alone in a room
with a coin press and 1964 Peace dollar dies, to have your way with it. What would it be like to make some of these coins for yourself ?
That is a fantasy that I've had for a long time, and probably similar to other fantasies that other collectors have had. I've managed to
make mine somewhat tangible.
<< <i>
<< <i>Those that buy the D Carr items, do you buy this hoping they increase in value or just like to collect the items he makes? >>
I like what he makes. I surely could go the other way because I have most all of his sub 100 mintage pieces, and any one who follows the series know some pieces are 10x issue. But in the end it's the quality of the work that has inspired me from the time I found out he does his own cnc work and even wrote the program to code it. I keep a piece in the shop by my machine just for that little push to get it correct the first time by double checking everything before I hit 'GO'..
As far as this coin, knowing some of what it took to get it right, plus the stones to not defile it with 'COPY', made this purchase for me was a no brainer. >>
I was not aware that his stuff was in that high demand to bring 10 times original offering price. WOW, i have been asleep at the keyboard. I did look once and thought the pieces he made with the planchets/scraps he found in the coin press he bought from the mnt was cool.
I told my wife not to buy all that avon stuff!!!!!!! I wish she would have listened for once.....
Maybe i do need one of the 64's. Is there a max mintage number?
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Maybe i do need one of the 64's. Is there a max mintage number? >>
See his post above:
<< <i>As for the mintage, the final total is yet to be determined. It will definitely be less than 2,000. Perhaps a lot less. Not sure yet. >>
I spent a little time over on his site, i was impressed. I thought his main line was the parody quarters that i was not impressed with. I see those at a lot of shows and thought that was mainly what he did.
I was wrong. I found something there for 75 bucks i may have to have before this dollar in question.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Can you give a brief summary of how your dies are made?
Is a copy machine used?
Many have grumbled about the $110 price but I am sure the cost of making the dies must be substantial?
MR Willis,
How about it, will PCGS slab these coins for us?
You have slabbed Shawnee Nation Dollars, surely this coin is more deserving of being preserved in PCGS plastic than a Shawnee Nation Dollar?
GrandAm
<< <i>As for the mintage, the final total is yet to be determined. It will definitely be less than 2,000. Perhaps a lot less. Not sure yet. >>
If someone pays 10 grand for this coin because they thought and/or was told it was the real thing, will you reimburse this individual's money when they learn it's not a genuine 1964-D Peace dollar? It's not like everybody will be aware of the origin of this product.
Hopefully, no-one will buy this without proper certification but the wheels appear to be well greased already.
Take a look at the 2005 to 2010 circulating coins. We have TGS's certifying those coins as business strikes and people buying them without having any concrete information from the manufacturers, the US Mint on how they are produced.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
<< <i>If someone pays 10 grand for this coin because they thought and/or was told it was the real thing >>
They would probably either keep it a secret because they seek to acquire illegal-to-own government property or they expect to turn it over to the Secret Service as any real ones are illegal to own, per the 1973 Mint newsletter.
<< <i>
<< <i>If someone pays 10 grand for this coin because they thought and/or was told it was the real thing >>
They would probably either keep it a secret because they seek to acquire illegal-to-own government property or they expect to turn it over to the Secret Service as any real ones are illegal to own, per the 1973 Mint newsletter. >>
That is if they are aware of all you presume.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If someone pays 10 grand for this coin because they thought and/or was told it was the real thing >>
They would probably either keep it a secret because they seek to acquire illegal-to-own government property or they expect to turn it over to the Secret Service as any real ones are illegal to own, per the 1973 Mint newsletter. >>
That is if they are aware of all you presume. >>
Is that too much to expect for someone spending 10 grand on a coin?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If someone pays 10 grand for this coin because they thought and/or was told it was the real thing >>
They would probably either keep it a secret because they seek to acquire illegal-to-own government property or they expect to turn it over to the Secret Service as any real ones are illegal to own, per the 1973 Mint newsletter. >>
That is if they are aware of all you presume. >>
Is that too much to expect for someone spending 10 grand on a coin? >>
It can be sold to anyone who has heard they were once produced. The US Mint doesn't make a habit of producing and destroying coins. The forums here are a very small circle of confides when compared to the millions who collect coins. No, I don't believe everyone will question the origin of this product.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If someone pays 10 grand for this coin because they thought and/or was told it was the real thing >>
They would probably either keep it a secret because they seek to acquire illegal-to-own government property or they expect to turn it over to the Secret Service as any real ones are illegal to own, per the 1973 Mint newsletter. >>
That is if they are aware of all you presume. >>
Is that too much to expect for someone spending 10 grand on a coin? >>
It can be sold to anyone who has heard they were once produced. The US Mint doesn't make a habit of producing and destroying coins. The forums here are a very small circle of confides when compared to the millions who collect coins. No, I don't believe everyone will question the origin of this product. >>
IMO, people spending $10k on a coin need to take responsibility for their decisions. This is true for a $500 coin and certainly true for a $10k coin.
<< <i>Dan,
Can you give a brief summary of how your dies are made?
Is a copy machine used?
Many have grumbled about the $110 price but I am sure the cost of making the dies must be substantial?
...
>>
I'd prefer not to disclose the process because there are those out there that might use the information
with less-honorable intentions. Some will say that what I've done here is not entirely "honorable".
I say that it is, and, at least with me doing it, everything is above board and full disclosure is made.
Fortunately, this is not something the typical small shop could do, due to the specialized equipment and
techniques employed.
It took five pairs of dies made to get the look I wanted. My costs in producing dies is not great,
until you figure in the value of time. It also takes a lot of steps and a lot of work to process the
host coins before they are even over-struck.
<< <i>As for the mintage, the final total is yet to be determined. It will definitely be less than 2,000. Perhaps a lot less. Not sure yet. >>
DC - Are you going to cap the mintage at 2,000 or will you produce to demand without a cap?
<< <i>
<< <i>As for the mintage, the final total is yet to be determined. It will definitely be less than 2,000. Perhaps a lot less. Not sure yet. >>
DC - Are you going to cap the mintage at 2,000 or will you produce to demand without a cap? >>
I will mint to demand, but NOT more than 2,000.
If sales quickly reach 1,500 or so, the last 500 will cost more
And the last 100 even more than that