<< <i>If this were a copy of a small sized $100 bill with a date of 1927 I can pretty much guaranty the secret service would not consider it a "fantasy piece". >>
But if it sold for $1100 for a $100 bill, I don't think they would feel very threatened. --Jerry
<< <i>If this were a copy of a small sized $100 bill with a date of 1927 I can pretty much guaranty the secret service would not consider it a "fantasy piece". >>
But if it sold for $1100 for a $100 bill, I don't think they would feel very threatened. --Jerry >>
Of course they would. They would be sanctioning its counterfeiting by allowing it to exist.
You are both arguing semantics which have nothing to do with the core issue of creating a coin which purposefully and with impressive accuracy duplicates a U.S. Mint struck piece. Give me some of what your smoking if you think its wise to argue semantics with the U.S. Secret Service.
Some years ago, many of us admired Mr. Carr for his interesting state quarter designs and his tenacity in fighting the mint’s bureaucracy for improved designs and a wider scope to the eligible artists.
Now it seems like a way for a competent artist to ruin his reputation, confuse collectors and non-collectors, and contribute to the growing mistrust within numismatics. Other schemes, such as polishing silver eagles and adding his own initials appear to fall in a similar category.
Very sorry to see this kind of creative perversion.
<< <i>If this were a copy of a small sized $100 bill with a date of 1927 I can pretty much guaranty the secret service would not consider it a "fantasy piece". >>
They would if you used a real $100 bill to create it, its not a counterfeit, it is a real, in your example, altered $100 bill. It has been monetized. If you took that same real $100 bill and wrote by hand on it 1927 with the date, it would be the same thing, just better art. Its an altered real $100 bill. Its the same as altering a penny, nickel, etc.
I'm essentially a postmodern coin collector, so I welcome this creation, ecstatically. Numismatic purists are those who may be objecting rather strenuously. I saw a great graphic in Lisa Birnbach's new book, "True Prep", where there was an illustration of a 2010 Kennedy half dollar with Kennedy sporting some fancy shades on the top of his head and an Izod shirt with the collar up. I'd be interested in one of those overstruck on a 1964 silver half, fer sure!
Edited to add: "The hyperreal is more real than the real." ~ Baudrillard
So.................if the Langbord's suit has any affect on the status of the coin, exacly what would a "REAL" 1964-D, if it were proven legal and authentic, sell for on the open market?
With a mintage of 316,076, it would be the lowest mintage Peace. Lets take a guess that 316,050 were actually melted leaving 26 coins to "magically" show up on the market once legalized.
What do you think these would sell for? Be honest since the answer has a lot to do with the subject matter.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>exacly what would a "REAL" 1964-D, if it were proven legal and authentic, sell for on the open market? >>
The hyperreal sells for $110. That's the market. This is the pinnacle of Daniel Carr's success so far, IMHO. He beats JSG Boggs with this one. >>
You've missed the point entirely.
What would a "Real" example sell for? Not Daniel's since we know its not "REAL". what would a certifiably authentic 1964-D Peace Dollar sell for in the open market?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>I wonder when one will hit ebay and what would happene there. I am guessing no matter what disclosure the auction would get nuked. >>
"Restrike" Kellogg & Co. slugs sell on eBay all the time. They do not have COPY on them and are even slabbed by PCGS. I think these were even made by Americans. In addition to the Fugios, this seems to be another example where a similar collector piece is accepted in the marketplace.
With Fugios and Kellogg slugs, there are real ones and the non-COPY ones are accepted. In this case, there are no real ones.
Again, just thinking of currently accepted collecting practices.
Not to politicize this (merely making an analogy), but to me, this is kinda like the Ground Zero mosque on a certain level- yes, you can do it, but the question is should you do it?
The price is more than I want to pay, but I like it- the work looks excellent, and it must be a sight to behold in-hand. No one criticizes Mel Wacks for overstamping Peace dollars, and to me this is the same thing, just a different design. Maybe Dan could stamp them with some other marking besides "Copy" if he doesn't think that term is appropriate for this piece, just to satisfy everyone (myself included) who sees one of these falling into the wrong hands and to protect himself.
Dan- I think you ought to use some of your other designs for overstamps. I think the moon man would look great on a silver dollar.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
<< <i>Sooner or later one of these coins, worn down and antiqued, will be sold for a large sum of money to somebody who doesn't know better. By the time the hidden diagnostics are pointed out to him or her, the seller and the money will be long gone.
<< <i>Sooner or later one of these coins, worn down and antiqued, will be sold for a large sum of money to somebody who doesn't know better. By the time the hidden diagnostics are pointed out to him or her, the seller and the money will be long gone.
I guarantee that this will happen.
Tom DeLorey >>
I agree with you. >>
I think this is unlikely to be a big problem because the people thinking they will be buying a real one would be people that want to buy stolen government property. Since these transactions would be done in secret, I doubt people with this disposition will complain loudly as the very nature of the secrecy indicates they understand the risks.
In the unlikely scenario that some real ones still exist, the reason why none have shown up is the exact reason why no honest person will buy one mistaking it for a real one: any real ones are too hot to discuss with first hand knowledge.
<< <i>Suppose one (or more) eventually come to light- wouldn't that make yours counterfeits? >>
We can ask all kinds of "what ifs" but the reality is that there is no evidence that any exist.
However, in the unlikely scenario that some did come to light, things might change or they might not. As mentioned, the Fugios and Kellogg slugs are being transacted in the open and slabbed by TPGs.
Don't like the color, sand blast look or price. If it looked like the real thing, were 90% or 100% silver and were being sold for a little more than the going ounce of silver.....then maybe...maybe...but still probably not. A person buying that has some serious cash to burn(or flush down the toilet)....IMO.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
People ask "what ifs" here all the time. Those who are interested in a discussion of the topic will comment if they have anything they want to say. If this forum was restricted to posts that contained nothing but verifiable facts, it would get real lonely here real fast, I guarantee.
<< <i>Don't like the color, sand blast look or price. If it looked like the real thing, were 90% or 100% silver and were being sold for a little more than the going ounce of silver.....then maybe...maybe...but still probably not. A person buying that has some serious cash to burn(or flush down the toilet)....IMO. >>
I think the price is quite reasonable. A lot of work goes into something like this. Maybe if Daniel were striking 10,000 the price should be lowered.
I am pretty confident the coin will look quite genuine in terms of color. It is, after all, a real Peace dollar. And therefore it is 90% silver. I wonder how close it will look to the real thing. Roger B., our local expert, isn't impressed, I seems. Lance.
I knew this one would bring controversy. even more than the PL >fake proof< silver eagles.
battle lines are drawn... it may take the secret service to settle this one.
Here's to hoping people on here don't let the debate deteriorate into something poof'ed.
Me? I'm not sure if they could be called counterfeits and seized or not. I'm waiting for the Secret Service & courts to decide. If it arrives at my place, I will label the holder: contemporary fake.
Just the fact that people have heard tale of these existing should be enough to convince people that someone will attempt to pass these as real. >>
Are there any books, price quides, or auctions in existence that have these listed or prices associated? If anyone out there wants to blow a lot of money on them, thinking they are original government issue, then not only shame on the one stating they are original, but shame on the stupid buyer for not having any clue on what they are buying.
<< <i>I knew this one would bring controversy. even more than the PL >fake proof< silver eagles.
battle lines are drawn... it may take the secret service to settle this one.
Here's to hoping people on here don't let the debate deteriorate into something poof'ed.
Me? I'm not sure if they could be called counterfeits and seized or not. I'm waiting for the Secret Service & courts to decide. If it arrives at my place, I will label the holder: contemporary fake. >>
I'll send mine to PCGS.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
how many of you saying this is a counterfeit, also own counterfeits? how about considered purchasing a counterfeit? or even joked about it with Longacre on his many Asian journeys?
I'd not buy one from the ""abnormal"" channels because that'd only encourage them... in this case, I think this is at least right up on the line for a fake vs. counterfeit but is not coming from a counterfeiter. So, I don't mind buying one.
As already mentioned, please ship quickly and destroy your records......quickly Just kidding, of course. You know it all's can argue till you're blue in the face....It's a cool conversation piece, I like it, I bought one without regret or guilt. I don't need the freakin Moral Majority controlling my buying decisions nor questioning my ethics.
<< <i>As already mentioned, please ship quickly and destroy your records......quickly Just kidding, of course. You know it all's can argue till you're blue in the face....It's a cool conversation piece, I like it, I bought one without regret or guilt. I don't need the freakin Moral Majority controlling my buying decisions nor questioning my ethics. >>
Me too and now I wonder if our host would be willing to put it in a Genuine holder labeled as a D. Carr fantasy dollar.
While it will undoubtable NOT be a 70 since remnants of the parent coin will probably exist, my submission would simply be to see if they would slab it like the Fantasy Fugio's. More than likely not since the Fantasy Fugio's have a better than 100 year history along with a rather large following whereas this coin does not.
As Roger pointed out, it's not quite there and I expect that a side by side comparison with an unaltered Peace Dollar would reveal it's deficit's.
Doesn't matter to me though since I've considered buying the Proof and Uncirculated versions from Royal Oak Mint for years now.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>As already mentioned, please ship quickly and destroy your records......quickly Just kidding, of course. You know it all's can argue till you're blue in the face....It's a cool conversation piece, I like it, I bought one without regret or guilt. I don't need the freakin Moral Majority controlling my buying decisions nor questioning my ethics. >>
Me too and now I wonder if our host would be willing to put it in a Genuine holder labeled as a D. Carr fantasy dollar. >>
That would be cool, a PCGS slabbed 1964-D restrike. I would send it in.
Comments
<< <i>If this were a copy of a small sized $100 bill with a date of 1927 I can pretty much guaranty the secret service would not consider it a "fantasy piece". >>
But if it sold for $1100 for a $100 bill, I don't think they would feel very threatened. --Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>If this were a copy of a small sized $100 bill with a date of 1927 I can pretty much guaranty the secret service would not consider it a "fantasy piece". >>
But if it sold for $1100 for a $100 bill, I don't think they would feel very threatened. --Jerry >>
Of course they would. They would be sanctioning its counterfeiting by allowing it to exist.
Even if so, it is still a REAL peace dollar with merely the date altered.
Would the naysayers feel different if it were dated 1965 (i.e. a date that none EVER existed or were minted for)?
Would ANYONE EVER take this for a real 1964-D Peace dollar? Certainly not to a degree that can even approach fraudulent intent.
<< <i>Certainly not to a degree that can even approach fraudulent intent >>
Fraudulent intent does not matter, it is a Peace dollar that was not authorized by the US government.
<< <i>Even if so, it is still a REAL peace dollar with merely the date altered. >>
Whether it was a restrike, or a strike on a planchet with equivalent alloy, the final product is a Peace dollar that was not authorized.
<< <i>cool just because it is imitating a legendary but never proven-to-exist entity--a sasquatch >>
Gonna buy 1 next month as an Xmas present
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Now it seems like a way for a competent artist to ruin his reputation, confuse collectors and non-collectors, and contribute to the growing mistrust within numismatics. Other schemes, such as polishing silver eagles and adding his own initials appear to fall in a similar category.
Very sorry to see this kind of creative perversion.
PS: The accuracy is not all that great.
<< <i>If this were a copy of a small sized $100 bill with a date of 1927 I can pretty much guaranty the secret service would not consider it a "fantasy piece". >>
They would if you used a real $100 bill to create it, its not a counterfeit, it is a real, in your example, altered $100 bill. It has been monetized. If you took that same real $100 bill and wrote by hand on it 1927 with the date, it would be the same thing, just better art. Its an altered real $100 bill. Its the same as altering a penny, nickel, etc.
Numismatic purists are those who may be objecting rather strenuously.
I saw a great graphic in Lisa Birnbach's new book, "True Prep", where there was an illustration of a 2010 Kennedy half dollar with Kennedy sporting some fancy shades on the top of his head and an Izod shirt with the collar up. I'd be interested in one of those overstruck on a 1964 silver half, fer sure!
Edited to add: "The hyperreal is more real than the real." ~ Baudrillard
A PostModern coin collection
With a mintage of 316,076, it would be the lowest mintage Peace.
Lets take a guess that 316,050 were actually melted leaving 26 coins to "magically" show up on the market once legalized.
What do you think these would sell for? Be honest since the answer has a lot to do with the subject matter.
The name is LEE!
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>Lee if that real coin materialized...it would sell for exactly 4 million dollars. >>
Great.
Waiting for more answers.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>exacly what would a "REAL" 1964-D, if it were proven legal and authentic, sell for on the open market? >>
The hyperreal sells for $110. That's the market.
This is the pinnacle of Daniel Carr's success so far, IMHO. He beats JSG Boggs with this one.
<< <i>
<< <i>exacly what would a "REAL" 1964-D, if it were proven legal and authentic, sell for on the open market? >>
The hyperreal sells for $110. That's the market.
This is the pinnacle of Daniel Carr's success so far, IMHO. He beats JSG Boggs with this one. >>
You've missed the point entirely.
What would a "Real" example sell for? Not Daniel's since we know its not "REAL". what would a certifiably authentic 1964-D Peace Dollar sell for in the open market?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I wonder when one will hit ebay and what would happene there. I am guessing no matter what disclosure the auction would get nuked. >>
"Restrike" Kellogg & Co. slugs sell on eBay all the time. They do not have COPY on them and are even slabbed by PCGS. I think these were even made by Americans. In addition to the Fugios, this seems to be another example where a similar collector piece is accepted in the marketplace.
With Fugios and Kellogg slugs, there are real ones and the non-COPY ones are accepted. In this case, there are no real ones.
Again, just thinking of currently accepted collecting practices.
The price is more than I want to pay, but I like it- the work looks excellent, and it must be a sight to behold in-hand. No one criticizes Mel Wacks for overstamping Peace dollars, and to me this is the same thing, just a different design. Maybe Dan could stamp them with some other marking besides "Copy" if he doesn't think that term is appropriate for this piece, just to satisfy everyone (myself included) who sees one of these falling into the wrong hands and to protect himself.
Dan- I think you ought to use some of your other designs for overstamps. I think the moon man would look great on a silver dollar.
His production runs are often very small.
<< <i>Sooner or later one of these coins, worn down and antiqued, will be sold for a large sum of money to somebody who doesn't know better. By the time the hidden diagnostics are pointed out to him or her, the seller and the money will be long gone.
I guarantee that this will happen.
Tom DeLorey >>
I agree with you.
<< <i>
<< <i>Sooner or later one of these coins, worn down and antiqued, will be sold for a large sum of money to somebody who doesn't know better. By the time the hidden diagnostics are pointed out to him or her, the seller and the money will be long gone.
I guarantee that this will happen.
Tom DeLorey >>
I agree with you. >>
I think this is unlikely to be a big problem because the people thinking they will be buying a real one would be people that want to buy stolen government property. Since these transactions would be done in secret, I doubt people with this disposition will complain loudly as the very nature of the secrecy indicates they understand the risks.
In the unlikely scenario that some real ones still exist, the reason why none have shown up is the exact reason why no honest person will buy one mistaking it for a real one: any real ones are too hot to discuss with first hand knowledge.
deleted
what if they were made DMPL ?? The previously struck ones were plain old bus. strikes, right?
speaking of....
I'm fully expecting a 70....
<< <i>Last thought:
The original 1964-D Peace dollars - are they real or not ? >>
They were real at one time.
<< <i>Can they be real if none exist? >>
I would say no. But on the other hand, there's really no way to know for an undisputed fact that none do exist, is there?
Suppose one (or more) eventually come to light- wouldn't that make yours counterfeits?
<< <i>Hmmm.....
what if they were made DMPL ?? The previously struck ones were plain old bus. strikes, right? >>
This would only be significant if there are real ones. All the evidence indicates that there are none.
And any that theoretically exist, would likely be owned illegally.
<< <i>Suppose one (or more) eventually come to light- wouldn't that make yours counterfeits? >>
We can ask all kinds of "what ifs" but the reality is that there is no evidence that any exist.
However, in the unlikely scenario that some did come to light, things might change or they might not. As mentioned, the Fugios and Kellogg slugs are being transacted in the open and slabbed by TPGs.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>We can ask all kinds of "what ifs"... >>
People ask "what ifs" here all the time. Those who are interested in a discussion of the topic will comment if they have anything they want to say. If this forum was restricted to posts that contained nothing but verifiable facts, it would get real lonely here real fast, I guarantee.
<< <i>
<< <i>Last thought:
The original 1964-D Peace dollars - are they real or not ? >>
They were real at one time.
<< <i>Can they be real if none exist? >>
I would say no. But on the other hand, there's really no way to know for an undisputed fact that none do exist, is there?
Suppose one (or more) eventually come to light- wouldn't that make yours counterfeits? >>
Excellent point except that none were know to exist when Daniel punched his out. It's a fantasy piece.
Maybe he could edge letter them since he has that capability?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>I'll be glad to stamp it for you, or teach you to stamp it yourself. --Jerry >>
Badger Mint offers a steel "COPY" stamp to counterstamp such items as needs be desired. >>
Harbor freight offers a complete set of 1/8" letter stamps for $3.99. Do it yourself.
<< <i>Without the "copy" stamp it is a counterfeit Peace dollar. >>
I'm pretty sure that is one thing that it is not. --Jerry
Where the 1964 was crystal clear but also crystal clear that the "24" is under the 64.
Otherwise, I just like the idea of having a novelty piece to carry in my pocket.
<< <i>Don't like the color, sand blast look or price. If it looked like the real thing, were 90% or 100% silver and were being sold for a little more than the going ounce of silver.....then maybe...maybe...but still probably not. A person buying that has some serious cash to burn(or flush down the toilet)....IMO. >>
I think the price is quite reasonable. A lot of work goes into something like this. Maybe if Daniel were striking 10,000 the price should be lowered.
I am pretty confident the coin will look quite genuine in terms of color. It is, after all, a real Peace dollar. And therefore it is 90% silver. I wonder how close it will look to the real thing. Roger B., our local expert, isn't impressed, I seems.
Lance.
battle lines are drawn... it may take the secret service to settle this one.
Here's to hoping people on here don't let the debate deteriorate into something poof'ed.
Me? I'm not sure if they could be called counterfeits and seized or not. I'm waiting for the Secret Service & courts to decide. If it arrives at my place, I will label the holder: contemporary fake.
<< <i>
Just the fact that people have heard tale of these existing should be enough to convince people that someone will attempt to pass these as real. >>
Are there any books, price quides, or auctions in existence that have these listed or prices associated? If anyone out there wants to blow a lot of money on them, thinking they are original government issue, then not only shame on the one stating they are original, but shame on the stupid buyer for not having any clue on what they are buying.
<< <i>Suppose one (or more) eventually come to light- wouldn't that make yours counterfeits? >>
Excellent point except that none were know to exist when Daniel punched his out. It's a fantasy piece. >>
Could be. One thing's for sure, though- I wouldn't want to have to defend that position if the government decided differently.
<< <i>I knew this one would bring controversy. even more than the PL >fake proof< silver eagles.
battle lines are drawn... it may take the secret service to settle this one.
Here's to hoping people on here don't let the debate deteriorate into something poof'ed.
Me? I'm not sure if they could be called counterfeits and seized or not. I'm waiting for the Secret Service & courts to decide. If it arrives at my place, I will label the holder: contemporary fake. >>
I'll send mine to PCGS.
The name is LEE!
just out of curiosity...
how many of you saying this is a counterfeit, also own counterfeits? how about considered purchasing a counterfeit? or even joked about it with Longacre on his many Asian journeys?
I'd not buy one from the ""abnormal"" channels because that'd only encourage them... in this case, I think this is at least right up on the line for a fake vs. counterfeit but is not coming from a counterfeiter. So, I don't mind buying one.
<< <i>I'll send mine to PCGS. >>
That's true...
I need to make sure it IS a 70 after all....
<< <i>As already mentioned, please ship quickly and destroy your records......quickly
Me too and now I wonder if our host would be willing to put it in a Genuine holder labeled as a D. Carr fantasy dollar.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'll send mine to PCGS. >>
That's true...
I need to make sure it IS a 70 after all....
While it will undoubtable NOT be a 70 since remnants of the parent coin will probably exist, my submission would simply be to see if they would slab it like the Fantasy Fugio's. More than likely not since the Fantasy Fugio's have a better than 100 year history along with a rather large following whereas this coin does not.
As Roger pointed out, it's not quite there and I expect that a side by side comparison with an unaltered Peace Dollar would reveal it's deficit's.
Doesn't matter to me though since I've considered buying the Proof and Uncirculated versions from Royal Oak Mint for years now.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>As already mentioned, please ship quickly and destroy your records......quickly
Me too and now I wonder if our host would be willing to put it in a Genuine holder labeled as a D. Carr fantasy dollar. >>
That would be cool, a PCGS slabbed 1964-D restrike. I would send it in.