Options
Coin show ethics
MarkInDavis
Posts: 1,752 ✭✭✭✭
Let's say you are a patron at a coin show. You see another patron showing some coins to a few dealers looking to sell and shopping for the best price. Is it unethical to make the guy an offer of your own since you are not a dealer there and have not paid for a table?
Edit:
Now that I have a bunch of replies, I'll throw in my two cents. I have always thought this to be an absolute no-no. The few times that I've been at a dealers table when someone comes by looking to sell coins, I back off and often tell the dealer I'll be back later to make it clear that I'm getting out of the way of his deal. (Although I think it would be educational and entertaining to eavesdrop on the potential transaction.) Maybe he'll give me a break for my courtesy when I return. I assume the same applies if your at a B&M and somebody walks out after rejecting the dealers offer. I would not walk out to the parking lot to make my offer. I think that coin dealers need to earn a living and collectors need to respect this. It is just a hobby for me so it makes the choice pretty clear.
Edit:
Now that I have a bunch of replies, I'll throw in my two cents. I have always thought this to be an absolute no-no. The few times that I've been at a dealers table when someone comes by looking to sell coins, I back off and often tell the dealer I'll be back later to make it clear that I'm getting out of the way of his deal. (Although I think it would be educational and entertaining to eavesdrop on the potential transaction.) Maybe he'll give me a break for my courtesy when I return. I assume the same applies if your at a B&M and somebody walks out after rejecting the dealers offer. I would not walk out to the parking lot to make my offer. I think that coin dealers need to earn a living and collectors need to respect this. It is just a hobby for me so it makes the choice pretty clear.
Respectfully, Mark 0
Comments
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>I wouldn't do it right in front of the dealer who he's trying to sell to...but who's to stop you from asking him while he's walking around the show? Seems fine to me. >>
This is not fine. I run a local coin show and as the promoter, I will give you one warning then ban you from the show. The dealers have paid to have the opportunity to both buy and sell coins to the public. When you as the lurker have made the same investment, you will be entitled to the same privilege. If the particular dealer the person is talking to isn’t interested in the coin, one of the many other deals may be.
Please visit my website Millcitynumismatics.com
<< <i>
<< <i>I wouldn't do it right in front of the dealer who he's trying to sell to...but who's to stop you from asking him while he's walking around the show? Seems fine to me. >>
This is not fine. I run a local coin show and as the promoter, I will give you one warning then ban you from the show. The dealers have paid to have the opportunity to both buy and sell coins to the public. When you as the lurker have made the same investment, you will be entitled to the same privilege. If the particular dealer the person is talking to isn’t interested in the coin, one of the many other deals may be. >>
Ban enough people and you no longer have a show. I dont see the harm in making an offer AFTER the dealer has either lowballed or passed. Are you THAT anti-collector?
That is a fact.
It is unethical to say the least.
Of course if you have no values, such as intergerity, do as you wish!
now that would be interesting!!!
<< <i>This is not fine. I run a local coin show and as the promoter, I will give you one warning then ban you from the show. The dealers have paid to have the opportunity to both buy and sell coins to the public. When you as the lurker have made the same investment, you will be entitled to the same privilege. If the particular dealer the person is talking to isn’t interested in the coin, one of the many other deals may be. >>
I can see what you're trying to say, but do you really think you can prevent collectors from shooting the breeze at a show? I guess I'm looking at it from the standpoint of two collectors casually talking and a coin for sale just happens to come up in the conversation. If there is a "lurker" at the showing randomly asking anybody and everybody if they have coins to sell, then yeah, that guy is breaking the rules and should be banned. But if a sale takes place on the bourse floor (or outside in the hall, whatever) between two friends neither of those people should be banned.
I saw a fellow collector shopping a couple coins and get 2 lowball offers in front of me. I patiently waited for the dealers to pass on the coins and asked if I could see them only to get yelled at "YOU CANT DO THAT!".
I think it is unfair to assume at a coin show that dealers have a monopoly over any purchases that come in the door - I understand dealers pay a lot for their table, but I feel that this practice takes away any options for a private seller. A dealer is paying to be able to present their wares to the collecting public, not to set up a 'hotel buy'.
What if no dealers are interested - is a collector still not allowed to buy the coin?
I participate in other hobbies including firearms/historical items and this is a VERY common practice at these shows - everyone openly barters at both dealers tables and in the halls.
If a collector wishes to be offered coins for sale at a show and be offered the same privileges as a dealer has then they should consider renting a bourse table.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>try having a coin show without any dealers
now that would be interesting!!! >>
Without coin dealers, I can buy/trade amongst other collectors. Without collectors, you'd need to find a new source of income....and thats a fact Jack.
But I have waited for the 'seller' to show it to two or three dealers before I have approached him.
In my case, I feel I was totally ethical about it.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
It is the same as going in to someone's store and trying to do business with his customers.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>Also remember that a coin show can be successful without the presence of collectors (invitationals/ trade 'n grades, etc.) but there wouldn't be a coin show without the dealers. >>
What a very deranged viewpoint that is. Get 1 thing straight.....if there were no "end users" or as we commonly refer to them....collectors.....all the dealers could take their coins and spend them at face value (thats a Julian quote), and is spot on dead accurate.
If there were no dealers, collectors could buy/sell/trade amongst eachother.....have a quick gander at the BST as an example.
This is the main reason I stopped going to my local B@M.. They will offer you 50% less than they are selling
the same coin for in their showcase right in front of you...
<< <i>I wouldn't do it right in front of the dealer who he's trying to sell to...but who's to stop you from asking him while he's walking around the show? Seems fine to me. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>If shows were fully open for collectors to buy among themselves, would prices suddenly become much more competitive?
Ebay has done alot towards that! I realize that there is a ton of garbage on ebay, but there is also a ton of garbage on any bourse floor right in dealer's cases. The real delight is not on the "buying" end as a collector, but rather the "selling" end with ebay. I have sold numerous beautiful coins (slabbed and raw) on ebay for as much as DOUBLE what my local B&M or local show dealers have offered. We as collectors no longer have to put up with the lowball chit anymore. 15 years ago, if you wanted/needed to sell a coin, you had 2 choices....take it or leave it. Ebay has certainly leveled the playing field!
<< <i>
<< <i>This is not fine. I run a local coin show and as the promoter, I will give you one warning then ban you from the show. The dealers have paid to have the opportunity to both buy and sell coins to the public. When you as the lurker have made the same investment, you will be entitled to the same privilege. If the particular dealer the person is talking to isn’t interested in the coin, one of the many other deals may be. >>
I can see what you're trying to say, but do you really think you can prevent collectors from shooting the breeze at a show? I guess I'm looking at it from the standpoint of two collectors casually talking and a coin for sale just happens to come up in the conversation. If there is a "lurker" at the showing randomly asking anybody and everybody if they have coins to sell, then yeah, that guy is breaking the rules and should be banned. But if a sale takes place on the bourse floor (or outside in the hall, whatever) between two friends neither of those people should be banned. >>
There is a difference between a couple buddies doing a deal between themselves. Nothing wrong with that, and that transaction looks and feels different. Also, if the guy with the coin leaves the show and you catch him out in the hallway, I have nothing to say. My interpretation of the OP's question is the parties don't know each other, and one attempts to buy the coin on the bourse floor. I cry foul.
As for the show, I've never had to ask someone to leave. I have warned 3-4 people during the last seven years. This is not anti-customer. They are why we can be there. But if I'm not looking out for the dealers as well, guess what, they don't want to do my show and the customers that did no wrong are harmed (less competition, smaller selection etc.)
Andrew
Please visit my website Millcitynumismatics.com
<< <i>I was shocked at one of my first shows to get yelled at over this practice.
I saw a fellow collector shopping a couple coins and get 2 lowball offers in front of me. I patiently waited for the dealers to pass on the coins and asked if I could see them only to get yelled at "YOU CANT DO THAT!".
I think it is unfair to assume at a coin show that dealers have a monopoly over any purchases that come in the door - I understand dealers pay a lot for their table, but I feel that this practice takes away any options for a private seller. A dealer is paying to be able to present their wares to the collecting public, not to set up a 'hotel buy'.
What if no dealers are interested - is a collector still not allowed to buy the coin?
I participate in other hobbies including firearms/historical items and this is a VERY common practice at these shows - everyone openly barters at both dealers tables and in the halls. >>
By the way, when I have delivered warnings I have always asked to speak with the person privately. Usually they don't know they've crossed a line, and deserve to be treated with respect, and not publically berated.
Please visit my website Millcitynumismatics.com
<< <i>
<< <i>I wouldn't do it right in front of the dealer who he's trying to sell to...but who's to stop you from asking him while he's walking around the show? Seems fine to me. >>
This is not fine. I run a local coin show and as the promoter, I will give you one warning then ban you from the show. The dealers have paid to have the opportunity to both buy and sell coins to the public. When you as the lurker have made the same investment, you will be entitled to the same privilege. If the particular dealer the person is talking to isn’t interested in the coin, one of the many other deals may be. >>
I strongly disagree with this.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>If shows were fully open for collectors to buy among themselves, would prices suddenly become much more competitive?
They can. It's called e-bay. Pay the fees, put up with the hassle, and don't post to the board when a deal goes foul.
Please visit my website Millcitynumismatics.com
<< <i>I'm not surprised at the dealer responses. They can't stand to see two collectors dealing among themselves without a dealer middleman getting involved so he can profit from the transaction. If there are strict rules against two collectors dealing with each other, the show promoter should post a sign at the entrance to that effect. Then, the two collectors can go outside for a few minutes to conduct their business. >>
Doesnt surprise me either Perry, but it does disgust me.
Hypothetical Exchange:
Collector A : Any interest in this 1924 Saint in MS63 Mr. Coin Dealer?
Mr. Coin Dealer : Blah, blah, blah, with the rising price of gold, blah, blah, everyone is trying to sell these now, blah blah blah, i'll give you melt for it cuz I have all this overhead, blah, blah, blah.
Collector A : Well greysheet lists it at around $1350 bid, I was hoping to get close to $1250 at least.
Mr. Coin Dealer : Blah, blah, blah, greysheet doesnt buy coins, I do, blah, blah, blah, I need to make a living and be able to afford my BMW and 6 vacations a year, blah, blah, blah, I'll give you melt + $50 and thats it.
Collector A : Thanks anyway.
Collector B : Hey, I need that coin, and want to pay $1250, here you go!
Collector A : Ok, sounds good.
Mr. Coin Dealer : FOUL!!! I paid $120 for this table, blah, blah, blah, and I should have the right to rip John Q. Public, blah, blah, blah, because im a "coin dealer" every 3rd Sunday here at this Holiday Inn, blah, blah, blah.
See why I have such disdain for dealers in general?
<< <i>Maybe it's just me...in over 40 years of attending shows it has never occured to me that I should be trying to undercut the dealers who paid to be there. >>
Undercut? The dealer HAD 1ST SHOT and refused to pay the price the collector wanted. The other collector was ok with paying that same price. Where is the "undercut"?
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm not surprised at the dealer responses. They can't stand to see two collectors dealing among themselves without a dealer middleman getting involved so he can profit from the transaction. If there are strict rules against two collectors dealing with each other, the show promoter should post a sign at the entrance to that effect. Then, the two collectors can go outside for a few minutes to conduct their business. >>
Doesnt surprise me either Perry, but it does disgust me.
Hypothetical Exchange:
Collector A : Any interest in this 1924 Saint in MS63 Mr. Coin Dealer?
Mr. Coin Dealer : Blah, blah, blah, with the rising price of gold, blah, blah, everyone is trying to sell these now, blah blah blah, i'll give you melt for it cuz I have all this overhead, blah, blah, blah.
Collector A : Well greysheet lists it at around $1350 bid, I was hoping to get close to $1250 at least.
Mr. Coin Dealer : Blah, blah, blah, greysheet doesnt buy coins, I do, blah, blah, blah, I need to make a living and be able to afford my BMW and 6 vacations a year, blah, blah, blah, I'll give you melt + $50 and thats it.
Collector A : Thanks anyway.
Collector B : Hey, I need that coin, and want to pay $1250, here you go!
Collector A : Ok, sounds good.
Mr. Coin Dealer : FOUL!!! I paid $120 for this table, blah, blah, blah, and I should have the right to rip John Q. Public, blah, blah, blah, because im a "coin dealer" every 3rd Sunday here at this Holiday Inn, blah, blah, blah.
See why I have such disdain for dealers in general? >>
Gecko----You nailed it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I'm not surprised at the dealer responses. They can't stand to see two collectors dealing among themselves without a dealer middleman getting involved so he can profit from the transaction. >>
And I'm not surprised by the collector responses. They're too cheap to pay for a table, but they want to do business like the dealers who *have* paid (and whose willingness to pay those fees make the show possible in the first place, BTW).
Posted by Julian:
"Dealers pay for the tables. If you want to be able to buy from the public, buy a table and make all the offers that you wish."
So... Julian doesn't know what he's talking about?
<< <i>Also remember that a coin show can be successful without the presence of collectors (invitationals/ trade 'n grades, etc.) but there wouldn't be a coin show without the dealers.
If a collector wishes to be offered coins for sale at a show and be offered the same privileges as a dealer has then they should consider renting a bourse table. >>
You need to read Julian Leidman's tag line - "without collectors we can just spend our collections"
WRONG!
Im not saying its acceptable for another collector to butt in negotiations between a dealer and collector. But....if the dealer PASSES on a coin that a collector tries to sell them, then whats wrong with a nearby collector ponying up the dough and buying it? That dealer had his chance....he didnt want the coin....he is out NOTHING!
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe it's just me...in over 40 years of attending shows it has never occured to me that I should be trying to undercut the dealers who paid to be there. >>
Undercut? The dealer HAD 1ST SHOT and refused to pay the price the collector wanted. The other collector was ok with paying that same price. Where is the "undercut"? >>
Is he the only dealer at the show? Even if he was (in other words Sunday afternoon
If the seller wants to put his coin on ebay and paid the associated fees involved with being put in touch with a willing buyer he can do so.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe it's just me...in over 40 years of attending shows it has never occured to me that I should be trying to undercut the dealers who paid to be there. >>
Undercut? The dealer HAD 1ST SHOT and refused to pay the price the collector wanted. The other collector was ok with paying that same price. Where is the "undercut"? >>
Is he the only dealer at the show? Even if he was (in other words Sunday afternoon
If the seller wants to put his coin on ebay and paid the associated fees involved with being put in touch with a willing buyer he can do so. >>
True enough, however, you are putting the carraige before the horse. Those dealers would be out digging ditches or working in a factory, or doing some other line of work if it wasnt for the collectors who showed up in the 1st place. Looooong before there ever was the 1st coin dealer, there were thousands of collectors. Like sharks smelling the chum, dealers got involved to service those collectors. And some make a MIGHTY NICE living on it I might add. So for the 30 year coin dealer who has fed his family, put his kids through school, and has enjoyed countless other benefits all at the expense of the COLLECTORS....I seriously urge them to rethink their stance on a couple of collectors making a private deal AFTER that dealer has passed on any offerings. Its just good business sense.
<< <i>At Long Beach you can buy the "right" to act as a dealer without a table for a reduced fee. You get the ribbon on your lanyard but do not get a table. This is a way to openly allow vest pocket dealers to work a show. >>
Now THAT I have a problem with.
I think dealers should be more upset with this than the occassional collector trying to sell his three or four coins.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>But....if the dealer PASSES on a coin that a collector tries to sell them, then whats wrong with a nearby collector ponying up the dough and buying it? That dealer had his chance....he didnt want the coin....he is out NOTHING! >>
As has already been stated, what's wrong with it is that there are other dealers at the show.
<< <i>
<< <i>But....if the dealer PASSES on a coin that a collector tries to sell them, then whats wrong with a nearby collector ponying up the dough and buying it? That dealer had his chance....he didnt want the coin....he is out NOTHING! >>
As has already been stated, what's wrong with it is that there are other dealers at the show. >>
That just doesn't make sense..
If I go along with your argument, then the opposite should be true....
That is, before a collector buys a coin from Dealer 'A', should Dealer 'B' through 'Z' be allowed to offer the collector their coin?
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>
<< <i>But....if the dealer PASSES on a coin that a collector tries to sell them, then whats wrong with a nearby collector ponying up the dough and buying it? That dealer had his chance....he didnt want the coin....he is out NOTHING! >>
As has already been stated, what's wrong with it is that there are other dealers at the show. >>
By that logic, then is it permissible if the collector shopped it around to all 50 tables at a given show, and THEN sold it to another collector at a price HIGHER than any of those 50 dealers were willing to pay? As a dealer at a show, would you have a problem with this? What if it was a collector who had spent thousands of dollars with you in previous shows? Does he get preferential treatment? At what point do you say "yeah, I did pay for this table, but he IS a great customer of mine and did offer me the coin first, so I dont have a problem with him offloading it to another collector"? Or are you so greedy that you have the mindset that if you dont want the coin, that collector should be buried with it?
<< <i>If I go along with your argument, then the opposite should be true.... >>
No- that does not necessarily follow. If I said "horses are bigger than dogs", would you respond with "If I go along with your argument, then the opposite should be true."
<< <i>That is, before a collector buys a coin from Dealer 'A', should Dealer 'B' through 'Z' be allowed to offer the collector their coin? >>
A collector at the show can choose to buy from whatever dealer he wishes to, and is not obligated to deal with any that he'd prefer not to.
I also added the above into my initial post.
<< <i>Now that I have a bunch of replies, I'll throw in my two cents. I have always thought this to be an absolute no-no. The few times that I've been at a dealers table when someone comes by looking to sell coins, I back off and often tell the dealer I'll be back later to make it clear that I'm getting out of the way of his deal. (Although I think it would be educational and entertaining to eavesdrop on the potential transaction.) Maybe he'll give me a break for my courtesy when I return. I assume the same applies if your at a B&M and somebody walks out after rejecting the dealers offer. I would not walk out to the parking lot to make my offer. I think that coin dealers need to earn a living and collectors need to respect this. It is just a hobby for me so it makes the choice pretty clear.
I also added the above into my initial post. >>
You're confusing me a little with this post. If you're already at the dealer's table, you should be "entitled" to be there to finish your business (whatever that may be). The other person should have to wait.
<< <i>By that logic, then is it permissible if the collector shopped it around to all 50 tables at a given show, and THEN sold it to another collector at a price HIGHER than any of those 50 dealers were willing to pay? >>
I would imagine you'd probably not find disagreement with that.
<< <i>As a dealer at a show, would you have a problem with this? >>
Never been a dealer at a show, but even if I had been, it wouldn't bother me.
<< <i>What if it was a collector who had spent thousands of dollars with you in previous shows? Does he get preferential treatment? At what point do you say "yeah, I did pay for this table, but he IS a great customer of mine and did offer me the coin first, so I dont have a problem with him offloading it to another collector"? >>
In that case, I'd probably explain to him just what Julian tried to explain to everybody here earlier in this thread- maybe the collector just didn't know.
<< <i>Or are you so greedy that you have the mindset that if you dont want the coin, that collector should be buried with it? >>
That's an entirely nonsensical supposition and doesn't even begin to address the topic of this thread, except as an attempt to make dealers as a whole look bad.
<< <i>The few times that I've been at a dealers table when someone comes by looking to sell coins, I back off and often tell the dealer I'll be back later to make it clear that I'm getting out of the way of his deal. (Although I think it would be educational and entertaining to eavesdrop on the potential transaction.) >>
Unless the dealer has made it clear that he wants some privacy, I think you probably don't have to worry about leaving the table as long as you allow the deal to be worked out. I've sat at dealer's tables many times in just such situations and it is educational, to be sure.
You're confusing me a little with this post. If you're already at the dealer's table, you should be "entitled" to be there to finish your business (whatever that may be). The other person should have to wait. >>
If I have selected a coin or coins to make an offer on, I will finish my deal (a polite dealer will ask the potential seller to hold on a minute). If, however, I am just scanning the dealers cases looking for something interesting, I will back off and give the dealer room to deal.
<< <i>This thread has gotten all "chicken or egg" on us. Without the dealers there, there would be no show. Without the collectors there, there would be no show. >>
Dealers will pay hundreds of dollars to set up at a show, while collectors (not all, of course) whine about paying a five buck admission fee. I believe it would be possible to get dealers to pay a large enough fee to be able to put on a "dealers only" show. I do not believe you could do the same thing with just collectors.
<< <i> >>
You're confusing me a little with this post. If you're already at the dealer's table, you should be "entitled" to be there to finish your business (whatever that may be). The other person should have to wait. >>
If I have selected a coin or coins to make an offer on, I will finish my deal (a polite dealer will ask the potential seller to hold on a minute). If, however, I am just scanning the dealers cases looking for something interesting, I will back off and give the dealer room to deal. >>
I see. But just to make sure. Does this have anything to do with the original concept of "stealing" a dealer's potential business?
As a side note, that is why shopping malls have the "no solicitation" signs. It's also for those reasons too, so that the average customer can't hawk his wares. Some of the hobby shows I go to also state that business cannot be conducted within their premises too.
<< <i>
<< <i>This thread has gotten all "chicken or egg" on us. Without the dealers there, there would be no show. Without the collectors there, there would be no show. >>
Dealers will pay hundreds of dollars to set up at a show, while collectors (not all, of course) whine about paying a five buck admission fee. I believe it would be possible to get dealers to pay a large enough fee to be able to put on a "dealers only" show. I do not believe you could do the same thing with just collectors. >>
a 'dealers only' show does happen at every coin show.
it's called 'early set-up' where probably most deals are done between dealer to dealer when the public is not allowed in.
at least this is true for all Canadian coin shows.
I could be mistaken for US coin shows.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)