<< <i>This thread has gotten all "chicken or egg" on us. Without the dealers there, there would be no show. Without the collectors there, there would be no show. >>
Dealers will pay hundreds of dollars to set up at a show, while collectors (not all, of course) whine about paying a five buck admission fee. I believe it would be possible to get dealers to pay a large enough fee to be able to put on a "dealers only" show. I do not believe you could do the same thing with just collectors. >>
"I believe it would be possible to get dealers to pay a large enough fee to be able to put on a "dealers only" show"
Ok...lets eliminate ALL coin collectors. How many of these "dealer only" shows before 90% of the dealers go belly up?
"I do not believe you could do the same thing with just collectors."
Lets do some basic math. It does require a few assumptions though, so humor me for a moment. Lets say a show had 50 tables at $200 per table. Thats $10,000. If just 2,000 collectors showed up over the 3 day event at $5 apiece, the revenue generated is identical. The major difference between a regular show, and an "all collector" show is how unbelievably disorganized the latter would be. And thats something even i'll admit to not wanting to be a part of. Shows always work best when there are both dealers and collectors. However, if a collector wishes to privately purchase a coin that a dealer, or dealers all passed on, whats the big deal? Its good for the hobby. As long as its a non-invasive event. In no way shape or form do I condone a collector trying to "undercut" a dealer during a negotiation between that dealer and another collector. Thats simply intollerable.
<< <i>This thread has gotten all "chicken or egg" on us. Without the dealers there, there would be no show. Without the collectors there, there would be no show. >>
Dealers will pay hundreds of dollars to set up at a show, while collectors (not all, of course) whine about paying a five buck admission fee. I believe it would be possible to get dealers to pay a large enough fee to be able to put on a "dealers only" show. I do not believe you could do the same thing with just collectors. >>
a 'dealers only' show does happen at every coin show.
it's called 'early set-up' where probably most deals are done between dealer to dealer when the public is not allowed in.
at least this is true for all Canadian coin shows.
I could be mistaken for US coin shows. >>
Its the same for all major shows and it is where the majority of business is done (if not a hotel room) for many a dealer.
I personally have no problem with it if discretion is used and it is done off of the isles. In the same vein I'd have no personal problem with a dealer taking a baseball bat upside your head if you tried to undercut him in the middle of a deal. And, knowing a few dealers with which this could actually occur I think most show operators tend to err on the side of caution and for the personal safety of their unwitting patrons.
Of course this all goes without even mentioning the fact that some states would be very unhappy to find out they weren't getting their cut on these collector-to-collector transactions as well.
<< <i>a 'dealers only' show does happen at every coin show.
it's called 'early set-up' where probably most deals are done between dealer to dealer when the public is not allowed in.
at least this is true for all Canadian coin shows. >>
It happens at US shows, too. I was just suggesting a situation in which the "dealers only" show was held, with no public show to follow. I believe it's unlikely to be financially practical to put on a simialr "collectors only" show.
<< <i>Ok...lets eliminate ALL coin collectors. How many of these "dealer only" shows before 90% of the dealers go belly up? >>
All collectors will never be eliminated. That out of the way, it would still be possible to hold a dealers only show- dealers buy and sell wholesale, too.
<< <i>Lets do some basic math. It does require a few assumptions though, so humor me for a moment. Lets say a show had 50 tables at $200 per table. Thats $10,000. If just 2,000 collectors showed up over the 3 day event at $5 apiece, the revenue generated is identical. >>
With those numbers, yes. Here are some other numbers, from the Long Beach show website: 2,000 dealers, 12,000 attendees. Dealer fees: $150 (attendance only- no table) to $1150 (most expensive single table). Attendee fees: $6 to $8. Income from dealers, assuming $500/per (about halfway between $150 and $1150, with the understanding lots of dealers pay for more than one table): $1,000,000. Income from atendees at $7/per (midway between 6 and 8): $84,000.00.
Change the figures around, and you can prove anything, right?
<< <i>Shows always work best when there are both dealers and collectors. However, if a collector wishes to privately purchase a coin that a dealer, or dealers all passed on, whats the big deal? Its good for the hobby. As long as its a non-invasive event. >>
I'm sure it happens all the time, and hardly ever causes any problems. How hard is it, really, to take a short walk out to the lobby and work out your deal there? It's just when a non-table-fee-paying attendee (collector OR dealer) is openly walking the floor soliciting business from other attendees that this issue crops up.
<< <i>In no way shape or form do I condone a collector trying to "undercut" a dealer during a negotiation between that dealer and another collector. Thats simply intollerable. >>
If a dealer passes on a purchase, it is open season on the item. What? If a dealer wants the coin at a rip, the seller MUST sell? Pure freakin garbage. Either buy the coin or not. If you pass, the deal goes to he/she that will pay the price. Grow up!! What da*n nonsense. Offer a fair price and you can close the deal - try a rip (as usual) and the business goes elsewhere. Cheers, RickO
I'm not surprised at the dealer responses. They can't stand to see two collectors dealing among themselves without a dealer middleman getting involved so he can profit from the transaction.
not it at all.
the whole topic really isn't about dealers vs. collectors or even about coins and coin shows. i'd expect it to be the same at any type of Trade Show or really at any type of public venue where a fee is paid which enables vendors to buy/sell. it's more about common courtesy and ethics which i'm surprised so many are confused about.
<< <i>I'm not surprised at the dealer responses. They can't stand to see two collectors dealing among themselves without a dealer middleman getting involved so he can profit from the transaction.
not it at all.
the whole topic really isn't about dealers vs. collectors or even about coins and coin shows. i'd expect it to be the same at any type of Trade Show or really at any type of public venue where a fee is paid which enables vendors to buy/sell. it's more about common courtesy and ethics which i'm surprised so many are confused about. >>
That's what I was coming in to post, keets.
Dealers pay to set up and do business, and therefore non-payers do not have the right to solicit business from other showgoers in the bourse. Of course people can step out and make transactions as they please, as long as they aren't soliciting from people in the show. I know it happens and I have seen it happen, but if done discreetly nobody will know and therefore no fuss will be made. People disrupting transactions and blatantly trying to buy coins from other attendees don't get to stay long.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>If you think it is easy to run a B&M open one yourself!
Put up or ***** up
6 vacations a year? I havent had a day off since I opened my shop 18 months ago! Open 6 days a week and shows on sunday Try that for a living. >>
I dont have the ice water running through my veins that it takes to run a B&M. I cannot rip off person after person who comes through the doors as if I had no conscience. And it sure must be a lucrative business if you wont even take a week off of the ripfest to get away. I'd rather do something else for my living. Something that involves helping people I dont even know, at any hour of the day/night, even if it means putting my own life at risk in the process. Try THAT for a living!
Is he the only dealer at the show? Even if he was (in other words Sunday afternoon the fact remains that the two collectors would never have seen each other if not for the show THAT THE DEALERS PAID FOR.
Actually, when all is said and done, the collectors pay for the show.
<< <i>I'm not surprised at the dealer responses. They can't stand to see two collectors dealing among themselves without a dealer middleman getting involved so he can profit from the transaction.
not it at all.
the whole topic really isn't about dealers vs. collectors or even about coins and coin shows. i'd expect it to be the same at any type of Trade Show or really at any type of public venue where a fee is paid which enables vendors to buy/sell. it's more about common courtesy and ethics which i'm surprised so many are confused about. >>
Attend a gun show sometime and you'll get an eye opener.
I look at it this way, I pay to get into the show to find and buy coins. If a dealer passes and two collectors take it outside the showroom. Then I see no reason not to be able to do business. But I would be descreet and not openly do business in front of the dealers. If the dealer passes thaen why does he get to say NO one else can buy it. Just my opinion.
<< <i>This thread has gotten all "chicken or egg" on us. Without the dealers there, there would be no show. Without the collectors there, there would be no show. >>
Dealers will pay hundreds of dollars to set up at a show, while collectors (not all, of course) whine about paying a five buck admission fee. I believe it would be possible to get dealers to pay a large enough fee to be able to put on a "dealers only" show. I do not believe you could do the same thing with just collectors. >>
"I believe it would be possible to get dealers to pay a large enough fee to be able to put on a "dealers only" show"
Ok...lets eliminate ALL coin collectors. How many of these "dealer only" shows before 90% of the dealers go belly up?
"I do not believe you could do the same thing with just collectors."
Lets do some basic math. It does require a few assumptions though, so humor me for a moment. Lets say a show had 50 tables at $200 per table. Thats $10,000. If just 2,000 collectors showed up over the 3 day event at $5 apiece, the revenue generated is identical. The major difference between a regular show, and an "all collector" show is how unbelievably disorganized the latter would be. And thats something even i'll admit to not wanting to be a part of. Shows always work best when there are both dealers and collectors. However, if a collector wishes to privately purchase a coin that a dealer, or dealers all passed on, whats the big deal? Its good for the hobby. As long as its a non-invasive event. In no way shape or form do I condone a collector trying to "undercut" a dealer during a negotiation between that dealer and another collector. Thats simply intollerable. >>
The one time I did a show a significant amount of what I sold (by a very large factor) was to other dealers. I could have had not collectors and still made 80% of my money. Not that we do not need collectors, but the statement is overblown. There are plenty of wholsesale dealers doing just fine.
<< <i>Dealers pay to set up and do business, and therefore non-payers do not have the right to solicit business from other showgoers in the bourse. Of course people can step out and make transactions as they please, as long as they aren't soliciting from people in the show. I know it happens and I have seen it happen, but if done discreetly nobody will know and therefore no fuss will be made. People disrupting transactions and blatantly trying to buy coins from other attendees don't get to stay long. >>
Exactly. This subject is a HUGE sore spot with me. This isn't about greed or profit; it's about ethics, common courtesy and fairness to the dealers who have PAID to be there. And sorry dealer wannabes, but my $500 table trumps your $5 admission fee (that you likely pitched a fit about paying).
I don't have a problem with people doing deals amongst themselves at a show... but God help you if you a) butt in on my deal, b) try to lure my customer away from my table or c) do a deal at my table that I paid for. It's no different than coming into our B/M store and doing the same thing. I have had people intercept a customer in front of my table and say "Whatever he offers I'll pay more", I've even had a guy reach over the shoulder of the customer and pick up coins out of the deal while we were going through it- and when called on it, he said "So what, you haven't bought it yet". I called over show security and they escorted him out. I suppose some think that what he did was just fine (because all dealers are crooks and just there to rip off people anyway, right?) Well if that's your philosophy, then I don't want or need "customers" like that.
As to the chicken/egg thing... if there are no dealers, collectors have nothing to buy. If there are dealers, the collectors will come. And thank God, most of them have brains, ethics and common sense.
<< <i>if there are no dealers, collectors have nothing to buy. >>
Um.....really? Have you not heard of eBay or the BST? While dealers make the process easier to find the coins collectors want, to say collectors would have "nothing to buy" without dealers is a bit dramatic.
Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
A lot of shows charge you to get on the bourse. If the dealer passes, he passes. He paid for the chance to have this coin come to his table and he passed.
<< <i>If you think it is easy to run a B&M open one yourself!
Put up or ***** up
6 vacations a year? I havent had a day off since I opened my shop 18 months ago! Open 6 days a week and shows on sunday Try that for a living. >>
This comment was completely inappropriate. No one forced you into this choice to make a living and to make comments like
<< <i>Put up or ***** up >>
is way off base. >>
No more inappropriate than the post to which he was replying which basically called ALL B&M owers scumbags living the life of Riley while ripping off everyone who comes in. IMO, it was more than called for.
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
<< <i>if there are no dealers, collectors have nothing to buy. >>
Um.....really? Have you not heard of eBay or the BST? While dealers make the process easier to find the coins collectors want, to say collectors would have "nothing to buy" without dealers is a bit dramatic. >>
Ebay and to a lesser degree, the bst are populated by more dealers than you might think, but I digress. Sans dealers, after a while fresh material might be a bit hard to locate I should think.
...No one forced you into this choice to make a living and to make comments like
Put up or ***** up
is way off base.
I can relate with his frustration and have said the same thing in the past. There are a lot of armchair quarterbacks on boards like this who seem to have the coin business all figured out, when I've been doing it for a quarter century and freely admit I don't know it all. I'm thinking some time spent on the other side of the counter (or table) might change their perspective a bit.
Oh I get it, they would get them from the heirs of other collectors after they died.
That way they could rip off the lil old ladies instead of the dealer.
My point which was lost on you was that the coin hobby needs dealers and collectors, too bad that flew over your head.
Steve >>
Coin collectors existed before coin dealers existed Steve. I know its a huge leap of logic for you to follow, but ponder on it for a moment. Also, consider that its much easier for me to change HOBBIES than it is to change LIVELYHOODS and now tell me which is the more important side of the collector/dealer equation.
I'm thinking you get one shot at a coin. If you blow it, tough whether you are a collector or a dealer. Make a serious offer and it is unlikely the transaction does not go your way. What I am reading from this thread is that dealers seem to saying that by paying a table fee they have bought the right to make low ball offers in attempts of rips. I;m thinking any dealer who feels threatened by collectors dealing amongst themselves at show should take a long hard look at their business model.
I think IGWT hit the nail on the head...it is the collectors that really pay all table fees anyway, not the dealers.
While this has been an interesting read, ethical behavior extends well beyond what is being discussed thus far- if one accepts that dealers have the privilege of buying from the public at a show, because the show is their de-facto shop, then I would suggest that they have a fudiciary obligation to those whom they are buying from because they are acting as the expert. They have a duty to offer fair buying prices and what is considered fair may depend on the coin, the ability to turn it quickly or how long one would anticipate having the coin in the dealer inventory. I think this leads to why coins can and should be shopped so the market works with a degree of fairness for everyone. From what I have seen the fudiciary duty concept that I believe dealers have appears to be quite often lacking at most shows...
Lets talk about the totality of Coin Show Ethics
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>At Long Beach you can buy the "right" to act as a dealer without a table for a reduced fee. You get the ribbon on your lanyard but do not get a table. This is a way to openly allow vest pocket dealers to work a show. >>
This is not a way to allow vest pockets to work the show. The early admission is just that, early admission. Non table holding dealers or anyone else cannot ethically purchase items on the floor from someone else.
You can always offer a dealer a commission to get you a coin that you see someone has, but has been unsuccessful in marketing it.
As a table holder, I cannot purchase something from anyone on the floor. I can ask him to come to my table and let me look at his coins. That is it!! I certainly cannot interfere with another dealer's transaction. An absolute NO-NO!!!
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
<< <i>While this has been an interesting read, ethical behavior extends well beyond what is being discussed thus far- if one accepts that dealers have the privilege of buying from the public at a show, because the show is their de-facto shop, then I would suggest that they have a fudiciary obligation to those whom they are buying from because they are acting as the expert. They have a duty to offer fair buying prices and what is considered fair may depend on the coin, the ability to turn it quickly or how long one would anticipate having the coin in the dealer inventory. I think this leads to why coins can and should be shopped so the market works with a degree of fairness for everyone. From what I have seen the fudiciary duty concept that I believe dealers have appears to be quite often lacking at most shows...
Lets talk about the totality of Coin Show Ethics >>
Likely because of the proximity of many competing dealers and the presence of more knowledgeable collectors, I expect that dealer buy prices on the bourse are higher than in coin shops, on average.
I don't have a problem with a non-tabled individual doing business with another non-tabled individual. However, if someone - tabled or non-tabled- is watching over my interactions with someone else, I think it's unethical for him to try to steal the deal. To me, it's not so much about dealer vs collector rights, or about the privilege that comes with renting a table at a show, It's more about civil behavior when working in a public space.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic. Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>If you think it is easy to run a B&M open one yourself!
Put up or ***** up
6 vacations a year? I havent had a day off since I opened my shop 18 months ago! Open 6 days a week and shows on sunday Try that for a living. >>
I dont have the ice water running through my veins that it takes to run a B&M. I cannot rip off person after person who comes through the doors as if I had no conscience. And it sure must be a lucrative business if you wont even take a week off of the ripfest to get away. I'd rather do something else for my living. Something that involves helping people I dont even know, at any hour of the day/night, even if it means putting my own life at risk in the process. Try THAT for a living! >>
With all due respect...but if you have such a low opinion of the people involved in the hobby, I am surprised you chose to remain in the hobby. I certainly would not.
Man, I wish I was surprised by some of the responses, but I am not
My thoughts: * Dealers paid for their space/table. I will respect that. I will not make a deal with another collector right there in front of a dealer's table, or even inside the show (if I don't know the collector), without the dealer's permission. ---It's called "RESPECT"
* If I leave the bourse, and strike up a conversation, then I feel it is fair game.
* The OP said nothing about never allowing collectors to deal with each other....ONLY at a coin show (which, I will assume to mean the actual bourse). The argument of "if there were no collectors then dealers would have no sales" just doesn't fly here.....it is taking the context outside of where it was meant. Instead of staying within the question and answering it there, it is being warped to someone else's view so they can take their pokes.
Collectors DON'T need dealers (but may not get as much to choose from, even with ebay, if only dealing with other collectors, as the selection will be greatly more limited in most cases), but, AT A COIN SHOW, dealers DON'T need collectors. I'm not a dealer, never have been, and no desire to be. I have sold dupes and flipped moderns. I have even done so at a coin show (BUT OUTSIDE THE BOURSE (in the parking lot as a fellow collector was asking me questions as I left since a dealer friend mentioned he should talk to me about some SAEs)). I wouldn't do the same right at the table, and when the collector had initially brought that up, in front of the dealer, I just begged off and changed the conversation to information rather than buying/selling. It was just after that, when I was leaving, that the dealer sent him to talk to me.
Those are just my views though....I try to respect others when I can, and when they are paying for a table, even if I think they are slimy (snidely whiplash for those that go to coin shows in my region and know who I am talking about), I won't try to make deals right in front of their table.
<< <i>Ethics ? I don't wanna hear about no stinkin' ethics at a coin show. >>
Here in Ontario Canada, there's a group of about 30 coin dealers (both locally and nationally) that set up at coin shows.
I've been attending these shows regularly for about 10 years.
Out of these 30, only 5 of them would I trust completely. That is, if I left a coin with them and forgot about it, I would be reminded of my mistake next coin show. Or if we did a deal on a 'hand shake' the dealer would honor it, even if he could of sold the coin for a little more later on in the day. Totally ethical and good natured.
15 of them are so-so.
But 10 of them are in my opinion, unethical, untruthful and solely out for themselves. Definite bunch of guys to watch your back when you're doing business with them.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
<< <i>If there were no dealers, collectors could buy/sell/trade amongst eachother.....have a quick gander at the BST as an example. >>
You mean *this* BST...
"It seems to me that the people who consistantly peruse the BST listings looking to buy coins are only looking for HUGE discounts to actual values. Sort of like a giant wasteland of scavengers who only prey on the softest game."
Singapore & Hong Kong March/April Hong kong/Long Beach JUNE Table #838 MACAU emgworldwide@gmail.com Cell: 512.808.3197 EMERGING MARKET GROUP PCGS, NGC, CCE & NCS, CGC, PSA, Auth. Dealer
At the heart of the matter is the plethora of unwritten rules in our hobby. I have no problem following rules if they actually exist. If collectors are not allowed to transact between each other at a show that rule should be published and noted at the entrance of the show. Unwritten rules only creates confusion and often leads to the distrust between collectors and dealers.
I have had many transactions with vest pocket dealers at shows who did not have a table. I had no idea this was against any rule.
Bingo!!! This says it poster says it all in one statement
<< <i>However, if someone - tabled or non-tabled- is watching over my interactions with someone else, I think it's unethical for him to try to steal the deal >>
Be descreet and do business outside the showroom
One idea that has come to me is the show promoters should have a seperate room that PAYING collectors ( to get into the show) can go to to safely conduct a transaction. One out side the showroom. That way other collectors, say members here can arrange to meet at the show as well to conduct a transaction.
I do not think most dealers would have a problem with this.
I got kicked out of a show once. A guy saw I was trying to sell a coin to a dealer. He approached me after I left the table and offered me a trade. In just a few seconds a little whiney dealer called security and they told us to leave if we were doing business. We went to his table and made the trade. We were off to the side of the bourse when this happened by the food tables. This was a major show in Chicago. I could see his point but all he had to do was say hey guy's take it out of the show instead of yelling for security and waving his arms like a lunatic. I actually think he thought they were going to arrest us or something?
"the whole topic really isn't about dealers vs. collectors or even about coins and coin shows. i'd expect it to be the same at any type of Trade Show or really at any type of public venue where a fee is paid which enables vendors to buy/sell. it's more about common courtesy and ethics which i'm surprised so many are confused about." Keets, go to a gunshow... I attend many... some with up to a thousand tables... some as small as forty tables. Business is done between attendees all the time. People even walk the floor (bourse if you will) with signs offering their item(s) for sale. Very common and no one gets upset. Collectors pay to enter coin shows (and gun shows), not as much as table fees, but pay nonetheless. I agree no one should interrupt a deal at a table (or otherwise).... however, it is a place of 'business' and as such, any attendee should be able to conduct business. If I knew of a formal rule that said collectors could not deal amongst themselves, I would not attend such a venue. Pure rubbish. Cheers, RickO
This has indeed been a fascinating discussion, which is slowly going into the proverbial gutter in line with the mentality of "all dealers are slime-ball lowlifes who have icewater running through their veins, cheat everybody, make enormous amounts of money, have no ethics, and actually try to cover their expenses and make a profit on top of it-and if they're not selling to me below sheet or selling to me at a price I think is right they are scum, and if they paid more for the coin than I want to pay it's too bad and they should still bow down and pay homage to me and sell it below cost just for the privilege of selling it to me."
I think this sums it up. My God, everyone, don't you get tired of this broken record? If you don't like a dealer, his attitude, or his prices, LEAVE. Take your business elsewhere. Vote with your dollars! And if you are a dealer, wish the seller well in his search when he leaves. I have been on both sides of the table, and still am, and I have found many undesireables on both sides. It's called LIFE, and everyone experiences it everyday in every business, from restaurants to doctors offices, insurance companies and even on the highways. There will ALWAYS be people you would like to see evaporate.
As far as transacting business at a coin show without a table, I agree that the rules should be posted and if you want to transact business, just leave the bourse and take care of business outside. The people who think it is their right to transact business on the bourse floor (and even at a dealer's table) with other collectors have absolutely no decency. The dealers have paid for the tables, which go toward renting the room. It is not free! Would you think it is okay to take your home-baked goods into a bakery to sell to their customers? Or how about a private mechanic going into a car dealership service area and telling potential customers, "I can do the work for cheaper." And then perform the repairs in their parking lot! Hey, why not? They shouldn't mind, right? Or, why not take your own private-label canned goods into a supermarket and set up right in front of the registers and sell them yours - after all, the supermarket must be ripping everyone off, right? Where do you draw the line?
And if you have difficulty with this, you are certainly ruining whatever chance you have to actually ENJOY this hobby. Perhaps you should then find a different hobby - something that will bring you some degree of satisfaction.
Larry L.
Autism Awareness: There is no limit to the good you can do, if you don't care who gets the credit.
Comments
<< <i>I believe it would be possible to get dealers to pay a large enough fee to be able to put on a "dealers only" show. >>
Yeah right, and have them complain about the lack of retail business? No thanks
<< <i>
<< <i>This thread has gotten all "chicken or egg" on us. Without the dealers there, there would be no show. Without the collectors there, there would be no show. >>
Dealers will pay hundreds of dollars to set up at a show, while collectors (not all, of course) whine about paying a five buck admission fee. I believe it would be possible to get dealers to pay a large enough fee to be able to put on a "dealers only" show. I do not believe you could do the same thing with just collectors. >>
"I believe it would be possible to get dealers to pay a large enough fee to be able to put on a "dealers only" show"
Ok...lets eliminate ALL coin collectors. How many of these "dealer only" shows before 90% of the dealers go belly up?
"I do not believe you could do the same thing with just collectors."
Lets do some basic math. It does require a few assumptions though, so humor me for a moment. Lets say a show had 50 tables at $200 per table. Thats $10,000. If just 2,000 collectors showed up over the 3 day event at $5 apiece, the revenue generated is identical. The major difference between a regular show, and an "all collector" show is how unbelievably disorganized the latter would be. And thats something even i'll admit to not wanting to be a part of. Shows always work best when there are both dealers and collectors. However, if a collector wishes to privately purchase a coin that a dealer, or dealers all passed on, whats the big deal? Its good for the hobby. As long as its a non-invasive event. In no way shape or form do I condone a collector trying to "undercut" a dealer during a negotiation between that dealer and another collector. Thats simply intollerable.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This thread has gotten all "chicken or egg" on us. Without the dealers there, there would be no show. Without the collectors there, there would be no show. >>
Dealers will pay hundreds of dollars to set up at a show, while collectors (not all, of course) whine about paying a five buck admission fee. I believe it would be possible to get dealers to pay a large enough fee to be able to put on a "dealers only" show. I do not believe you could do the same thing with just collectors. >>
a 'dealers only' show does happen at every coin show.
it's called 'early set-up' where probably most deals are done between dealer to dealer when the public is not allowed in.
at least this is true for all Canadian coin shows.
I could be mistaken for US coin shows. >>
Its the same for all major shows and it is where the majority of business is done (if not a hotel room) for many a dealer.
I personally have no problem with it if discretion is used and it is done off of the isles. In the same vein I'd have no personal problem with a dealer taking a baseball bat upside your head if you tried to undercut him in the middle of a deal. And, knowing a few dealers with which this could actually occur I think most show operators tend to err on the side of caution and for the personal safety of their unwitting patrons.
Of course this all goes without even mentioning the fact that some states would be very unhappy to find out they weren't getting their cut on these collector-to-collector transactions as well.
<< <i>a 'dealers only' show does happen at every coin show.
it's called 'early set-up' where probably most deals are done between dealer to dealer when the public is not allowed in.
at least this is true for all Canadian coin shows. >>
It happens at US shows, too. I was just suggesting a situation in which the "dealers only" show was held, with no public show to follow. I believe it's unlikely to be financially practical to put on a simialr "collectors only" show.
<< <i>Ok...lets eliminate ALL coin collectors. How many of these "dealer only" shows before 90% of the dealers go belly up? >>
All collectors will never be eliminated. That out of the way, it would still be possible to hold a dealers only show- dealers buy and sell wholesale, too.
<< <i>Lets do some basic math. It does require a few assumptions though, so humor me for a moment. Lets say a show had 50 tables at $200 per table. Thats $10,000. If just 2,000 collectors showed up over the 3 day event at $5 apiece, the revenue generated is identical. >>
With those numbers, yes. Here are some other numbers, from the Long Beach show website: 2,000 dealers, 12,000 attendees. Dealer fees: $150 (attendance only- no table) to $1150 (most expensive single table). Attendee fees: $6 to $8. Income from dealers, assuming $500/per (about halfway between $150 and $1150, with the understanding lots of dealers pay for more than one table): $1,000,000. Income from atendees at $7/per (midway between 6 and 8): $84,000.00.
Change the figures around, and you can prove anything, right?
<< <i>Shows always work best when there are both dealers and collectors. However, if a collector wishes to privately purchase a coin that a dealer, or dealers all passed on, whats the big deal? Its good for the hobby. As long as its a non-invasive event. >>
I'm sure it happens all the time, and hardly ever causes any problems. How hard is it, really, to take a short walk out to the lobby and work out your deal there? It's just when a non-table-fee-paying attendee (collector OR dealer) is openly walking the floor soliciting business from other attendees that this issue crops up.
<< <i>In no way shape or form do I condone a collector trying to "undercut" a dealer during a negotiation between that dealer and another collector. Thats simply intollerable. >>
We are in complete agreement here.
Put up or ***** up
6 vacations a year?
I havent had a day off since I opened my shop 18 months ago!
Open 6 days a week and shows on sunday
Try that for a living.
<< <i>If you think it is easy to run a B&M open one yourself! >>
No one said it was "easy." However, if you're doing it and avoiding vacations etc, you must love it.
<< <i>What? If a dealer wants the coin at a rip, the seller MUST sell? >>
With all due respect, nobody has even suggested that.
P R O F I T ™
hi, i'm tom.
i do not doctor coins like some who post in here.
not it at all.
the whole topic really isn't about dealers vs. collectors or even about coins and coin shows. i'd expect it to be the same at any type of Trade Show or really at any type of public venue where a fee is paid which enables vendors to buy/sell. it's more about common courtesy and ethics which i'm surprised so many are confused about.
<< <i>I'm not surprised at the dealer responses. They can't stand to see two collectors dealing among themselves without a dealer middleman getting involved so he can profit from the transaction.
not it at all.
the whole topic really isn't about dealers vs. collectors or even about coins and coin shows. i'd expect it to be the same at any type of Trade Show or really at any type of public venue where a fee is paid which enables vendors to buy/sell. it's more about common courtesy and ethics which i'm surprised so many are confused about. >>
That's what I was coming in to post, keets.
Dealers pay to set up and do business, and therefore non-payers do not have the right to solicit business from other showgoers in the bourse. Of course people can step out and make transactions as they please, as long as they aren't soliciting from people in the show. I know it happens and I have seen it happen, but if done discreetly nobody will know and therefore no fuss will be made. People disrupting transactions and blatantly trying to buy coins from other attendees don't get to stay long.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>If you think it is easy to run a B&M open one yourself!
Put up or ***** up
6 vacations a year?
I havent had a day off since I opened my shop 18 months ago!
Open 6 days a week and shows on sunday
Try that for a living. >>
I dont have the ice water running through my veins that it takes to run a B&M. I cannot rip off person after person who comes through the doors as if I had no conscience. And it sure must be a lucrative business if you wont even take a week off of the ripfest to get away. I'd rather do something else for my living. Something that involves helping people I dont even know, at any hour of the day/night, even if it means putting my own life at risk in the process. Try THAT for a living!
Actually, when all is said and done, the collectors pay for the show.
<< <i>I'm not surprised at the dealer responses. They can't stand to see two collectors dealing among themselves without a dealer middleman getting involved so he can profit from the transaction.
not it at all.
the whole topic really isn't about dealers vs. collectors or even about coins and coin shows. i'd expect it to be the same at any type of Trade Show or really at any type of public venue where a fee is paid which enables vendors to buy/sell. it's more about common courtesy and ethics which i'm surprised so many are confused about. >>
Attend a gun show sometime and you'll get an eye opener.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This thread has gotten all "chicken or egg" on us. Without the dealers there, there would be no show. Without the collectors there, there would be no show. >>
Dealers will pay hundreds of dollars to set up at a show, while collectors (not all, of course) whine about paying a five buck admission fee. I believe it would be possible to get dealers to pay a large enough fee to be able to put on a "dealers only" show. I do not believe you could do the same thing with just collectors. >>
"I believe it would be possible to get dealers to pay a large enough fee to be able to put on a "dealers only" show"
Ok...lets eliminate ALL coin collectors. How many of these "dealer only" shows before 90% of the dealers go belly up?
"I do not believe you could do the same thing with just collectors."
Lets do some basic math. It does require a few assumptions though, so humor me for a moment. Lets say a show had 50 tables at $200 per table. Thats $10,000. If just 2,000 collectors showed up over the 3 day event at $5 apiece, the revenue generated is identical. The major difference between a regular show, and an "all collector" show is how unbelievably disorganized the latter would be. And thats something even i'll admit to not wanting to be a part of. Shows always work best when there are both dealers and collectors. However, if a collector wishes to privately purchase a coin that a dealer, or dealers all passed on, whats the big deal? Its good for the hobby. As long as its a non-invasive event. In no way shape or form do I condone a collector trying to "undercut" a dealer during a negotiation between that dealer and another collector. Thats simply intollerable. >>
The one time I did a show a significant amount of what I sold (by a very large factor) was to other dealers. I could have had not collectors and still made 80% of my money. Not that we do not need collectors, but the statement is overblown. There are plenty of wholsesale dealers doing just fine.
<< <i>Dealers pay to set up and do business, and therefore non-payers do not have the right to solicit business from other showgoers in the bourse. Of course people can step out and make transactions as they please, as long as they aren't soliciting from people in the show. I know it happens and I have seen it happen, but if done discreetly nobody will know and therefore no fuss will be made. People disrupting transactions and blatantly trying to buy coins from other attendees don't get to stay long. >>
Exactly. This subject is a HUGE sore spot with me. This isn't about greed or profit; it's about ethics, common courtesy and fairness to the dealers who have PAID to be there. And sorry dealer wannabes, but my $500 table trumps your $5 admission fee (that you likely pitched a fit about paying).
I don't have a problem with people doing deals amongst themselves at a show... but God help you if you a) butt in on my deal, b) try to lure my customer away from my table or c) do a deal at my table that I paid for. It's no different than coming into our B/M store and doing the same thing. I have had people intercept a customer in front of my table and say "Whatever he offers I'll pay more", I've even had a guy reach over the shoulder of the customer and pick up coins out of the deal while we were going through it- and when called on it, he said "So what, you haven't bought it yet". I called over show security and they escorted him out. I suppose some think that what he did was just fine (because all dealers are crooks and just there to rip off people anyway, right?) Well if that's your philosophy, then I don't want or need "customers" like that.
As to the chicken/egg thing... if there are no dealers, collectors have nothing to buy. If there are dealers, the collectors will come. And thank God, most of them have brains, ethics and common sense.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I agree with this. The dealer's table at a show is his/her de facto "shop".
<< <i>if there are no dealers, collectors have nothing to buy. >>
Um.....really? Have you not heard of eBay or the BST? While dealers make the process easier to find the coins collectors want, to say collectors would have "nothing to buy" without dealers is a bit dramatic.
<< <i>If you think it is easy to run a B&M open one yourself!
Put up or ***** up
6 vacations a year?
I havent had a day off since I opened my shop 18 months ago!
Open 6 days a week and shows on sunday
Try that for a living. >>
This comment was completely inappropriate. No one forced you into this choice to make a living and to make comments like
<< <i>Put up or ***** up >>
is way off base.
Rainbow Stars
<< <i>
<< <i>If you think it is easy to run a B&M open one yourself!
Put up or ***** up
6 vacations a year?
I havent had a day off since I opened my shop 18 months ago!
Open 6 days a week and shows on sunday
Try that for a living. >>
This comment was completely inappropriate. No one forced you into this choice to make a living and to make comments like
<< <i>Put up or ***** up >>
is way off base. >>
No more inappropriate than the post to which he was replying which basically called ALL B&M owers scumbags living the life of Riley while ripping off everyone who comes in. IMO, it was more than called for.
I would not do it inside the bourse that is for sure.
Oh and without dealers how would the collectors who don't need dealers get the coins to trade amongst themselves?
Steve
<< <i>Approach the seller and do your business outside in the parking lot.
I would not do it inside the bourse that is for sure.
Oh and without dealers how would the collectors who don't need dealers get the coins to trade amongst themselves?
Steve >>
Riiiiight. Cuz we all know that dealers invented AND created coins in the first place Steve.
<< <i>
<< <i>if there are no dealers, collectors have nothing to buy. >>
Um.....really? Have you not heard of eBay or the BST? While dealers make the process easier to find the coins collectors want, to say collectors would have "nothing to buy" without dealers is a bit dramatic. >>
Ebay and to a lesser degree, the bst are populated by more dealers than you might think, but I digress. Sans dealers, after a while fresh material might be a bit hard to locate I should think.
...No one forced you into this choice to make a living and to make comments like
Put up or ***** up
is way off base.
I can relate with his frustration and have said the same thing in the past. There are a lot of armchair quarterbacks on boards like this who seem to have the coin business all figured out, when I've been doing it for a quarter century and freely admit I don't know it all. I'm thinking some time spent on the other side of the counter (or table) might change their perspective a bit.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Funny how you failed to answer a simple question.
Oh I get it, they would get them from the heirs of other collectors after they died.
That way they could rip off the lil old ladies instead of the dealer.
My point which was lost on you was that the coin hobby needs dealers and collectors, too bad that flew over your head.
Steve
<< <i>So where would they get them?
Funny how you failed to answer a simple question.
Oh I get it, they would get them from the heirs of other collectors after they died.
That way they could rip off the lil old ladies instead of the dealer.
My point which was lost on you was that the coin hobby needs dealers and collectors, too bad that flew over your head.
Steve >>
Coin collectors existed before coin dealers existed Steve. I know its a huge leap of logic for you to follow, but ponder on it for a moment. Also, consider that its much easier for me to change HOBBIES than it is to change LIVELYHOODS and now tell me which is the more important side of the collector/dealer equation.
I think IGWT hit the nail on the head...it is the collectors that really pay all table fees anyway, not the dealers.
Lets talk about the totality of Coin Show Ethics
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>At Long Beach you can buy the "right" to act as a dealer without a table for a reduced fee. You get the ribbon on your lanyard but do not get a table. This is a way to openly allow vest pocket dealers to work a show. >>
This is not a way to allow vest pockets to work the show. The early admission is just that, early admission. Non table holding dealers or anyone else cannot ethically purchase items on the floor from someone else.
You can always offer a dealer a commission to get you a coin that you see someone has, but has been unsuccessful in marketing it.
As a table holder, I cannot purchase something from anyone on the floor. I can ask him to come to my table and let me look at his coins. That is it!! I certainly cannot interfere with another dealer's transaction. An absolute NO-NO!!!
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>While this has been an interesting read, ethical behavior extends well beyond what is being discussed thus far- if one accepts that dealers have the privilege of buying from the public at a show, because the show is their de-facto shop, then I would suggest that they have a fudiciary obligation to those whom they are buying from because they are acting as the expert. They have a duty to offer fair buying prices and what is considered fair may depend on the coin, the ability to turn it quickly or how long one would anticipate having the coin in the dealer inventory. I think this leads to why coins can and should be shopped so the market works with a degree of fairness for everyone. From what I have seen the fudiciary duty concept that I believe dealers have appears to be quite often lacking at most shows...
Lets talk about the totality of Coin Show Ethics >>
Likely because of the proximity of many competing dealers and the presence of more knowledgeable collectors, I expect that dealer buy prices on the bourse are higher than in coin shops, on average.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>
<< <i>If you think it is easy to run a B&M open one yourself!
Put up or ***** up
6 vacations a year?
I havent had a day off since I opened my shop 18 months ago!
Open 6 days a week and shows on sunday
Try that for a living. >>
I dont have the ice water running through my veins that it takes to run a B&M. I cannot rip off person after person who comes through the doors as if I had no conscience. And it sure must be a lucrative business if you wont even take a week off of the ripfest to get away. I'd rather do something else for my living. Something that involves helping people I dont even know, at any hour of the day/night, even if it means putting my own life at risk in the process. Try THAT for a living!
With all due respect...but if you have such a low opinion of the people involved in the hobby, I am surprised you chose to remain in the hobby. I certainly would not.
Please visit my website Millcitynumismatics.com
My thoughts:
* Dealers paid for their space/table. I will respect that. I will not make a deal with another collector right there in front of a dealer's table, or even inside the show (if I don't know the collector), without the dealer's permission.
---It's called "RESPECT"
* If I leave the bourse, and strike up a conversation, then I feel it is fair game.
* The OP said nothing about never allowing collectors to deal with each other....ONLY at a coin show (which, I will assume to mean the actual bourse).
The argument of "if there were no collectors then dealers would have no sales" just doesn't fly here.....it is taking the context outside of where it was meant. Instead of staying within the question and answering it there, it is being warped to someone else's view so they can take their pokes.
Collectors DON'T need dealers (but may not get as much to choose from, even with ebay, if only dealing with other collectors, as the selection will be greatly more limited in most cases), but, AT A COIN SHOW, dealers DON'T need collectors. I'm not a dealer, never have been, and no desire to be. I have sold dupes and flipped moderns. I have even done so at a coin show (BUT OUTSIDE THE BOURSE (in the parking lot as a fellow collector was asking me questions as I left since a dealer friend mentioned he should talk to me about some SAEs)). I wouldn't do the same right at the table, and when the collector had initially brought that up, in front of the dealer, I just begged off and changed the conversation to information rather than buying/selling. It was just after that, when I was leaving, that the dealer sent him to talk to me.
Those are just my views though....I try to respect others when I can, and when they are paying for a table, even if I think they are slimy (snidely whiplash for those that go to coin shows in my region and know who I am talking about), I won't try to make deals right in front of their table.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Ethics ? I don't wanna hear about no stinkin' ethics at a coin show. >>
Here in Ontario Canada, there's a group of about 30 coin dealers (both locally and nationally) that set up at coin shows.
I've been attending these shows regularly for about 10 years.
Out of these 30, only 5 of them would I trust completely. That is, if I left a coin with them and forgot about it, I would be reminded of my mistake next coin show. Or if we did a deal on a 'hand shake' the dealer would honor it, even if he could of sold the coin for a little more later on in the day. Totally ethical and good natured.
15 of them are so-so.
But 10 of them are in my opinion, unethical, untruthful and solely out for themselves. Definite bunch of guys to watch your back when you're doing business with them.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>If there were no dealers, collectors could buy/sell/trade amongst eachother.....have a quick gander at the BST as an example. >>
You mean *this* BST...
"It seems to me that the people who consistantly peruse the BST listings looking to buy coins are only looking for HUGE discounts to actual values. Sort of like a giant wasteland of scavengers who only prey on the softest game."
Sounds good- thanks for the tip!
<< <i>If you think it is easy to run a B&M open one yourself!
Put up or ***** up
6 vacations a year?
I havent had a day off since I opened my shop 18 months ago!
Open 6 days a week and shows on sunday
Try that for a living. >>
I think Gecko was embellishing a little.
the last members only show comes to mind
.....now add collectors & the general public!
Hong kong/Long Beach JUNE Table #838
MACAU
emgworldwide@gmail.com
Cell: 512.808.3197
EMERGING MARKET GROUP
PCGS, NGC, CCE & NCS, CGC, PSA, Auth. Dealer
I have had many transactions with vest pocket dealers at shows who did not have a table. I had no idea this was against any rule.
edited: kant speel
<< <i>However, if someone - tabled or non-tabled- is watching over my interactions with someone else, I think it's unethical for him to try to steal the deal >>
Be descreet and do business outside the showroom
One idea that has come to me is the show promoters should have a seperate room that PAYING collectors ( to get into the show) can go to to safely conduct a transaction. One out side the showroom. That way other collectors, say members here can arrange to meet at the show as well to conduct a transaction.
I do not think most dealers would have a problem with this.
Keets, go to a gunshow... I attend many... some with up to a thousand tables... some as small as forty tables. Business is done between attendees all the time. People even walk the floor (bourse if you will) with signs offering their item(s) for sale. Very common and no one gets upset. Collectors pay to enter coin shows (and gun shows), not as much as table fees, but pay nonetheless. I agree no one should interrupt a deal at a table (or otherwise).... however, it is a place of 'business' and as such, any attendee should be able to conduct business. If I knew of a formal rule that said collectors could not deal amongst themselves, I would not attend such a venue. Pure rubbish.
Cheers, RickO
Just get the coins you want and disregard what anyone else thinks. It's your time on this earth. Use it to your advantage.
I think this sums it up. My God, everyone, don't you get tired of this broken record? If you don't like a dealer, his attitude, or his prices, LEAVE. Take your business elsewhere. Vote with your dollars! And if you are a dealer, wish the seller well in his search when he leaves. I have been on both sides of the table, and still am, and I have found many undesireables on both sides. It's called LIFE, and everyone experiences it everyday in every business, from restaurants to doctors offices, insurance companies and even on the highways. There will ALWAYS be people you would like to see evaporate.
As far as transacting business at a coin show without a table, I agree that the rules should be posted and if you want to transact business, just leave the bourse and take care of business outside. The people who think it is their right to transact business on the bourse floor (and even at a dealer's table) with other collectors have absolutely no decency. The dealers have paid for the tables, which go toward renting the room. It is not free! Would you think it is okay to take your home-baked goods into a bakery to sell to their customers? Or how about a private mechanic going into a car dealership service area and telling potential customers, "I can do the work for cheaper." And then perform the repairs in their parking lot! Hey, why not? They shouldn't mind, right? Or, why not take your own private-label canned goods into a supermarket and set up right in front of the registers and sell them yours - after all, the supermarket must be ripping everyone off, right? Where do you draw the line?
And if you have difficulty with this, you are certainly ruining whatever chance you have to actually ENJOY this hobby. Perhaps you should then find a different hobby - something that will bring you some degree of satisfaction.
Larry L.