1990 Topps Frank Thomas NNOF revisited...introduction to my theory

pswebauctions · August 20, 2009 7:45AM

My collection is mainly football but I have found this one to be of my favorite threads. The detective work is awesome. Congrats to Rookiewax on his pull. If he decides to put up his case for sale, I might have to add more baseball, or at least a box of 1990 Topps, to my collection.

slantycouch · August 20, 2009 7:48AM

<< So then, there would have to be 3 plates involved in the printing of the cards within one case? >>

Certainly. The printer we use can run up to 4 PRESSES at a time. Let alone the fact that plates deteriorate and have to be replaced as well.

Think about it. After the cards are produced, they are intentionally mixed before being placed into packs. Is it really that out of line to think that cards from different press runs could end up in the same case?

I have no idea what Topps printing facility looked like. None of what I'm saying is fact, only hypothesis based on what I do know about the cards and the process. The same is true for you. Saying you now know with certainty what happened or did not happen, is ridiculous. You said yourself several times yesterday that "no one will ever know".

1989FleerBillRipkencollector · August 20, 2009 8:03AM

On page 22 I posted a pic of the Topps packing in mid '70's. It's highly likely they used more than one printer and possibly used more than one company to outsource printing. You'll see there's many different workers placing product on the belt. Different pallets of cards from different printings or printers possibly being mixed together.

1989 Fleer has had differnt runs in the same box and other odd findings. I've pictured pallets of sheets stored and then cut to fill a need and that could be from different runs being mixed during packout.

All just a guess.

gigfy · August 20, 2009 8:26AM

<< BINGO!!!! BINGO!!!! NO NAME THOMAS just pulled after opening 5 more packs!!!!! Donovan, are you around????? This is just unreal!!!!!!! >>

Congratulations!! Very cool that you've got one for yourself.

If you or anyone has doubles of these, I would like to talk. I want to make a complete set. :-)

need 104 - Bob Knepper (missing black border bottom right corner)
need 141 - John Hart (manager) (missing black border top left corner)
got .. 227 - Kevin Tapani (missing black border upper right corner)
got .. 302 - Marcus Lawton (missing black border lower right and upper left corners, missing part of last name)
got .. 383 - John Morris (missing small portion of black border in upper right)
got .. 385 - Fred McGriff AS (missing black border lower left corner)
need 386 - Julio Franco AS (missing black border top and top right corner, missing black in background)
need 392 - Carlton Fisk AS (missing black border lower left corner)
need 395 - Jeff Russell AS (missing black border lower right corner and upper left side, missing black in background)
got .. 404 - Craig Biggio AS (missing black border upper left corner & right side, top right background behind him is white)
need 406 - Joe Magrane AS (missing black border upper right corner)
got .. 414 - Frank Thomas (rookie) (missing name, black border lower right corner / bottom and part of left side)
got .. 728 - Jim Acker (missing small portion of black border in lower left)

Cheers,
gigfy

RookieWax · August 20, 2009 9:28AM

Ross, and slantycouch, I apologize for stating my theory in such an absolute fashion. I would like to stick around and learn more about this entire blackless mystery - just like you guys.
Joe

BunchOBull · August 20, 2009 9:56AM

That's what I'd like to. I'd especially like to see you pull a few more cards...namely a Bob Knepper.

jacksoncoupage · August 20, 2009 11:26AM

<< That's what I'd like to. I'd especially like to see you pull a few more cards...namely a Bob Knepper. >>

On an unrelated note (sorta), the Bob Knepper card can be found in two different minor varieties ( I have found both in the same box at times ):

-With a little greenish area in his hair (background of pic showing through)

-With the area re-colored to blend in with his hair.

RookieWax · August 21, 2009 1:35AM

After pulling the NNOF yesterday, the urge to open more packs got to me last night. I must have gone through a good 80 packs or so. I pulled several more interesting things:

Another partial NNOF Thomas (looks like the 1st one I pulled) and a normal Thomas (the black was all there)
Another blackless Magrane with the entire right corner black gone (just like the one I pulled yesterday) and 2 normal Magrane
A blackless corner Acker and a normal Acker
A blackless Franco all-star and a normal Franco all-star
A blackless Russell all-star and a normal Russell all-star
Also pulled a Biggio all-star and 2 Mcgriff all-stars - but all were normal
Also a normal Fisk all-star
Also pulled 2 John Hart but both normal
Another partial blackless Tapani, but this one was different - like the one I pulled a few days ago (with a small blackless strip on the upper right border), but this one was about an inch higher on the border.

Now even more interesting stuff :

In a pack right behind a Beau Allred was a piece of torn thin yellowish index card like paper/cardboard. The back was blank and the front had some signs of lettered print along the tear and a line of print (the printing looks like it was on there originally - doesn't look stamped on). 3 of the edges were obviously cut square when the baseball cards were cut, but the slanted edge had a rough tear to it. I would have been more excited if there was ink all over it - but there could have been several such torn pieces on the printers that day. Perhaps this is the almost smoking gun we have been looking for. The torn part does kind of resemble some of the blackless area borders, especially when you look at it from the back side.

Also, something I originally thought was unrelated (and now it just might be): All along I was pulling cards from the blue B sheet with noticably faded black, but because there were no breaks in black and it was not the orange sheet I did not think much of it. Then, last night I pulled a Griffey (blue sheet

that had a small spot of sticky residue that I had to peel off. It had a small thickness to it, which is what I think caused the black to be even more faded on this card (perhaps the printer could not fully touch the card) than some of the other faded black, blue sheet cards I noted. I should add that I also found some similar residue sticking between 2 pack wrappers ( I was able to go back through my trash can and dig out one) I also found another Griffey with a smudge of missing ink in the same spot - but the rest of the black was not faded. This makes sense since most of the residue was stuck to my other griffey card and perhaps a thin amount was still left on the printer to make my next Griffey missing ink smudge?

So, just trying to put it all together and speculate, perhaps the rare combination of sticky residue and stray paper/cardboard are the culprits? The residue perhaps sticking to several pieces of torn stray paper (who knows how big and small) which fell off over time to create partial and full blackless errrors? Who knows? But I did find a good combination of unusual things in the now well over 100 packs that I have opened.

I have scans of the yellowish piece of paper/cardboard I pulled and the wrapper with the residue. What do you guys think? Any idea what the paper/cardboard is?

gigfy · August 21, 2009 1:46AM

Excellent!!

Hey RookieWax .... send me an email flatbeer AT knology DOT net

Cheers,
gigfy

slantycouch · August 21, 2009 1:48AM

WOW! Those are certainly very interesting findings Joe!

Please take scans of everything. I'm pretty sure everyone here would love to see them. And make sure you save ALL of that stuff! You never know what might be of help further down the line.

Cool.

Allen · August 21, 2009 1:55AM

This thread has certainly taken an odd twist. I cannot think what would increase the selling price of a 1990 Topps wax box more than pulling a NNOF Thomas.

RookieWax · August 21, 2009 1:59AM

Trust me, I am going to keep everything from these findings together. As you might imagine, I slept very little last night with all of this bouncing through my mind.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector · August 21, 2009 2:01AM

RookieWax · August 21, 2009 3:33AM

Thanks to Donovan once again for posting my pics. They show the front and back of the "stray paper/cardboard" and the wax pack with sticky residue similar to the small spot I found (and had to peel off) on the elbow area of the Griffey card on the right. The Griffey on the left is one I pulled shortly after with a similar but now lighter elbow spot, but no fading - as the thicker piece of residue was stuck to my other Griffey - so then the printing press could get close to the card.

saucywombat · August 21, 2009 3:49AM

Great find.

Any Bob Knepper?

RookieWax · August 21, 2009 4:16AM

I pulled 2 or 3 Kneppers last night...looked at them very closely as I went through for you guys....but they were perfectly fine.

richtree · August 21, 2009 4:41AM

RookieWax

Hey, aren't you they guy that was selling a NNOF on ebay from like the brooklyn, NY area ?

Within the last year or so ?

just wondering

-richtree

RookieWax · August 21, 2009 4:58AM

What? I live in Michigan. Where did that question come from? If it makes you feel any better, I am going to have mine graded in the coming weeks.

RookieWax · August 21, 2009 5:01AM

Just discovered something weird: Looking back through a bunch of my old 1990 Topps to compare, all of the Griffeys appear to have the smudge by his elbow. I did pull something sticky though off of that area - that is why I pulled it aside.

richtree · August 21, 2009 5:15AM

I only asked because I used email a guy on ebay that used to have 3 or 4 NNOF's Thomas's and was wondering if you were him.

I thought his name was bkrookie or soemthing., just wondering.

Good finds though.

RookieWax · August 21, 2009 5:36AM

Thank you.

jackstraw · August 21, 2009 12:37PM

That spot on Griffey is on them all. Maybe I should say everyone I have seen. It does
come in different colors .

RookieWax · August 21, 2009 12:54PM

Yep, I discovered that earlier too. When I pulled the sticky piece off the card I just figured it left a spot - it was on that same area.

CDsNuts · August 21, 2009 1:21PM

Glad you finally broke down and cracked some. Looks like it worked out for you. Has anyone figured out how it effects all of the theories?

RookieWax · August 21, 2009 11:31PM

Still working on that. The most unusual thing was the stray torn paper/cardboard that ended up in one of my packs.

RookieWax · August 22, 2009 4:17AM

I keep studying the cardboard/paper for more clues. I keep looking for something that might help identify what it might be, and wondering why it would be torn. If what looks like the tips of lettering along the tear stated "TEAR ALONG LINE", or "TEAR ALONG DOTTED LINE" then the tearing would make sense. The crazy thing is that the tips at the end of whatever was written there DO look like the tips of the letters L-I-N-E. But then the tip of whatever letter just before this does not look like the letter G as you would expect from the word ALONG. It also does not look like a D for DOTTED or DASHED. Now, what is a possibility, would be the phrase "TEAR ALONG BLACK LINE", or "TEAR ALONG THIS BLACK LINE" or something like that. These are just guesses because I can only make out the tips of what looks like the last 6 letters. So, I am looking at what looks like the last letters of .....CK LINE. The K is a bit questionable though. I will try to get a closer, horizontal scan and you guys can tell me what you think. I will need Donovan's help once again.

Joe

1989FleerBillRipkencollector · August 22, 2009 6:03AM

RookieWax · August 22, 2009 6:23AM

I just opened 15 more packs. I pulled 2 more partial blackless Frank Thomas - again they look just like the first 2 that I pulled. Also, pulled an All-star Fisk and a John hart - both were normal though. In total now on Frank Thomas, I have pulled 1 NNOF Thomas, 4 identical partial blackless Thomas, and 1 normal Thomas. So far, it looks like the only partial blackless errors in my case are on Thomas and Kevin Tapani. The 2 partial blackless Tapani cards were a bit different from one another though.

bigwilli · August 22, 2009 6:38AM

This whole thing has gotten my curiousity . These cards can be found in
any 90 topps boxes and cases correct??

saucywombat · August 22, 2009 7:15AM

<< This whole thing has gotten my curiousity . These cards can be found in
any 90 topps boxes and cases correct?? >>

Everything in the thread points to strictly wax packs from retail outlets. I know the kind of display that RookieWax has was present in Piggly Wiggly's maybe Eckerd's in 1990.

RookieWax · August 24, 2009 4:24AM

Packed and sent my NNOF Frank Thomas to PSA this morning - on a 5 day express order. So far, I have resisted my urges in the past 2 days to keep opening more packs.

gigfy · August 24, 2009 4:35AM

<< Packed and sent my NNOF Frank Thomas to PSA this morning - on a 5 day express order. So far, I have resisted my urges in the past 2 days to keep opening more packs. >>

Congratulations!! Let's wish for a 9 or better!

Here is mine.

Cheers,
gigfy

1989FleerBillRipkencollector · August 24, 2009 4:46AM

<< Packed and sent my NNOF Frank Thomas to PSA this morning - on a 5 day express order. So far, I have resisted my urges in the past 2 days to keep opening more packs. >>

Why? Case cost $200ish. NNOF worth what $400-$800 ? You made money. Selling those packs, "possible NNOF", will be a HARD sell. Even if you had video of the NNOF pull, wax is easily resealed and you don't have a reputation like BBCE or the like.

IMO you made profit and the most value lies in what's in the packs. Not financially but aiding in unraveling a mystery. Another piece of paper? More 'partial' missing black etc. If you sell a pack in 2 years and some guy gets a piece of paper or whatever, most likely it wont be linked back to here and he will have a piece of paper. Worthless physically and information wise unless the right people see it.

You pulled a NNOF. You bought a case of 1990 Topps. Was this case your retirement plan? Doubt it. You made a profit. Open the rest and maybe get another NNOF or sit on them for 7 years selling a pack every 2 weeks. If this case had only NNOF I'd say sell ! sell ! but this has a mix. Customers wont be hooked in easily by the "GET A NNOF !! Or kinda NNOF or maybe normal...

Open the packs already.

gregmo32 · August 24, 2009 4:57AM

This whole thread reminds me clearly that, after all these years, I am still a dork.

RookieWax · August 24, 2009 5:01AM

I know what you are saying Donovan. I might give into my urges to open some more - but again I am sitting on something more unique in unopened form. I think the 150 packs or so that I have opened so far is a pretty good sample size out of the 648 pack case. I might try to the ebay thing again just to see what interest there is - that might also help push me in one direction or another. Thanks for all of your time and advice.

VitoCo1972 · August 24, 2009 5:03AM

<< 
Open the packs already.

>>

Here here! Seriously. There's really no value to leaving the packs sealed. You can't really PROVE that they have possible NNOF in them for resale purposes. I agree with Donovan. You've clearly made your profit. You've aided the hobby with your findings and it's almost incumbent upon you as someone who has known NNOF packs to bust all that you have. Maybe keep 1-2 for sentimentality. PSA won't grade them as such because you have no physical evidence that sealed packs are possible NNOF's.

CDsNuts · August 24, 2009 5:04AM

fergie said he'd be willing to pay fairly for a box worth. Why not sell one to him? At least you'll be guaranteed to know what came out of his box because he posts his rips here.

Lee

RookieWax · August 24, 2009 5:06AM

Thanks gigfy. Yours looks very similar to mine in centering, so I am hoping for a 9. The centering from top to bottom could prevent it from "10" consideration, although if you read the PSA standards the centering on a 10 can go down to 60-40.

matthewbschultz83 · August 24, 2009 5:10AM

Also said I would buy a box.

RookieWax · August 24, 2009 5:10AM

After pulling a NNOF, I wasn't about to let a box go at $150 - no offense to fergie.

gigfy · August 24, 2009 5:18AM

<< Thanks gigfy. Yours looks very similar to mine in centering, so I am hoping for a 9. The centering from top to bottom could prevent it from "10" consideration, although if you read the PSA standards the centering on a 10 can go down to 60-40. >>

Thanks! I agree, yours looks very much like mine.

I have a question for you, send me an email at flatbeer AT knology DOT net.

Cheers,
gigfy

jeffcbay · August 24, 2009 5:21AM

I agree with the guys who are saying open the rest. You will be hard-pressed to sell the fact that these packs could contain a NNOF. No offense, but I probably wouldn't buy a box off of you since you could claim to have NNOF-history boxes, and sell me a regular box. If you're looking to maximize your profit, rip the dang things!

tunahead08 · August 24, 2009 5:26AM

Someone could start a great scam with this, buy a Frank NNOF, or even a fake, and then say it came out of a retail case you have, then just sell the people packs from regular boxes.

RookieWax · August 24, 2009 5:35AM

You are right, that is why I stated from the start of my previous auction on these packs, that feedback about any Thomas pulls would have to speak for itself.

1989FleerBillRipkencollector · August 24, 2009 5:55AM

Problem with trusting fb, Anyone can ask their buddy to 'buy' one and say they pulled one. Heck, if you have 2 friends....

Unless it's one of the few names I recognize, I cant trust some random "lovestobust" 's fb.

Not saying you'll do that but most only look at fb for the negatives that point out flaws.

RookieWax · August 24, 2009 6:00AM

True again, Donovan. All points I have to consider. In the end, opening them could end up as my best option. I am not sure though at this point. I don't want to rush into opening them all either.

fergie23 · August 24, 2009 6:44AM

Given the fact that you have pulled a regular Frank Thomas from your case this has all the makings of a scam and I will be surprised if you get much if any premium for your remaining packs, assuming you fully disclose what you have pulled from the case in your ebay auction. I am not saying it is a scam especially since you have provided scans of other "blackless" cards but while I'm willing to throw away $150 for a $5 box of cards I wouldn't go any higher. The fact that you have pulled a normal Thomas rookie pretty much provides you with an out regardless of what is pulled from the packs.

As for the eBay feedback there are plenty of pack resealers, especially with 86 Fleer, that had one of their buddies buy a pack and leave feedback saying they pulled a Jordan. Very easy con.

Good luck with whatever you do.

Robb

RookieWax · August 24, 2009 6:52AM

Thanks Robb.

Allen · August 24, 2009 7:16AM

You sure do think a lot RookieWax

gregmo32 · August 24, 2009 8:19AM

I have a feeling this would be way too much effort if he was looking to scam the boards. I think he has provided a ton of important feedback and does not have to do what anyone thinks with the packs/boxes he has left. I think I would be equally hesitant to open these packs as I am not aware of any other seller on the planet with "Thomas NNOF Unopened packs" for sale.

It is almost definitely a losing proposition to sell the packs however, because as many have said, there is a built in cover for any buyer who gets a normal Thomas or nothing at all. People will be suspicious regardless.

1990 Topps Frank Thomas NNOF revisited...introduction to my theory

Comments