My grade just popped up from PSA on my NNOF Thomas. Was hoping for a 9, but it got an 8. Must have been the centering. Do they even use the half grades? I sent a 45 card order in a few months ago and did not get any half grades in the group. Doesn't make much sense. Also, I recently opened another 9 packs from my blackless case. I pulled a Marcus Lawton with a small amount of black missing on the upper left border - again right in line with the original blackless streak. So add another partial blackless error to the list.
How many packs do you have left, and were they in wax boxes or in a display case when you got them?
I am buying and trading for RC's of Wilt Chamberlain, George Mikan, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Bob Cousy! Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
The packs were not in separate closed wax boxes - just loose packs in 2 layers of several open compartments of the case. I still have over 450 packs left.
B.O.B.- Should we add on page 1- Possibly in bold on my post (to keep your time stamp intact) a index of events. To keep researching of info easier. With 500+ replies it can be rather time consuming. ?? example- Page 4- Theory Page 7- 3 NNOF Neighbors Page 9- 2 NNOF Neighbors Page 13- Theory Page 15- Theory Page 16- Donovans Social Security Number Page 25- Collage Page 26- Updated Collage Page 27- NNOF/Partial pulled
Well, a few friends pretty much talked me into opening most if not all of my packs in my blackless case - with the goal of getting all of the blackless cards in the streak. So, just got done with a 4 hour pack opening session - I am sure I went through well over 300 packs. Mission accomplished, as I did get all of the blackless cards- and doubles of some. Highlights are that I pulled 2 more NNOF Thomas ( similar in centering to my 1st one, one maybe a bit worse than the other), another partial blackless Thomas (just like the 1st 4 I pulled), and 2 regular Thomas cards. The collation in this case has been very puzzling. I pulled at least 9 or 10 Fisk all-stars , but only 1 blackless. Same with John Hart. Once tonight, from 2 packs that were one on top of the other in the case, I pulled a perfectly fine Russel all -star, and then a blackless Russell all-star in the other pack. This has caused me to re-think a philosophy I have used in opening past cases of 1990 Topps. Over the years, I have bought and opened sealed cases, then opened a box or 2 until I hit a Thomas. If it was normal, I did not even bother to open any more - assuming it was impossible to pull a NNOF Thomas from any other packs or boxes in that case. I would usually just sell off the remainder of the case. I was planning on doing the same with this case - I guess I am VERY lucky in this case that the 1st Thomas I pulled had some black missing. I guess we just never know what lies in the next pack. I am very tired. I will try to provide scans tomorrow.
This thread started off amazing and then took a strange twist with this case discovery. I am glad all or most of that is over with. I guess we will see where this goes from there.
Terrific research material. Wish I had stumbled upon this myself.
I am buying and trading for RC's of Wilt Chamberlain, George Mikan, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Bob Cousy! Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
I probably will sell some doubles at some point, just not sure when the best time would be. If a grading company would acknowledge them, I think getting them authenticated/graded would be best before selling them.
Very strange indeed. Nice job manning up and opening the rest if the packs- can't argue with pulling 2 more NNOF and a bunch more blackless.
Is it possible that these retail displays were put together by hand? This would make the most sense as it seems that packs contained cards from at least 3 different print runs here. Say at the factory there are piles of wax packs/boxes that employees grab from to build these cases. Maybe the guy pulls from a couple different piles to build this case? I've opened Topps wax cases before and it always seems that the cards came from the same print run (e.g. all of the Ryan's will be centered the same), so there has to be an explanation of why this case consisted of cards from different print runs.
Good questions. It could be like Donovan suggested, where there are stacks of uncut sheets moved around and cut as needed. I remember someone saying they weren't sure if their NNOF Thomas was pulled from a wax pack or a cellophane pack bought at a store. The sheets producing the partial errors on Thomas/Tapani/Lawton seem go along with the NNOF sheets, but then the sheets that produced the regular Thomas/Tapani/Lawton cards in my case do not. I wish we had more specific personal accounts to go by from others who pulled the blackless cards.
<< <i>Good questions. It could be like Donovan suggested, where there are stacks of uncut sheets moved around and cut as needed. I remember someone saying they weren't sure if their NNOF Thomas was pulled from a wax pack or a cellophane pack bought at a store. The sheets producing the partial errors on Thomas/Tapani/Lawton seem go along with the NNOF sheets, but then the sheets that produced the regular Thomas/Tapani/Lawton cards in my case do not. I wish we had more specific personal accounts to go by from others who pulled the blackless cards. >>
I'll recap my assumptions- Looking at the picture of the Topps plant from 1974, you'll see numerous lines with workers placing packs in boxes. Boxes placed on belts. At the end of the belt is where I assume they grab the finished boxes and hand pack them in cases. I would think the product given to each line to be made into wax could be from different runs or even the same day but maybe only hours difference. Doubt the NNOF was printed for too long. Most of the time you'll have a consistant run but there are times when there is a brief flaw and that could get mixed into product that was later ran w/o flaws.
In my profession we pack produce. So I'm familiar with mixing runs. The sheets could have been printed and once their orders were filled and warehouse full, they stopped cutting and set the excess pallets of sheets aside. The forklift driver could then later grab these pallets of sheets as well as sheets being printed that day and moved them to the cutting area and then placed the product at one of the 6 or so lines.
As an example-
Line 1 & 2 Saturdays 8am printing (Normal printing) Line 3 Saturday 1pm printing line (partial NNOF run) Line 4 Saturday 2pm printing line (NNOF run) Line 5-6 Monday (current day) printing
I assume the excess cards were stored as sheets. They could have been stored already cut as well.
Also in this pic you'll notice wax and cello on the belt at the same time. Therefore the NNOF could be in wax and cello if they had the same Standard Operating Procedures 16 years later.
Does the case have a inked number on the outside? In my profession we use 'Lot Numbers' that are inked on the outside of every carton. These will have a code that means something to the company for various reasons. In 1989 Fleer, which I'm most familiar with, it has these and the numbers are usually consistant. There are some inconsistencies and I think I have a good idea why. If this number is directly related to the printing and you can unscamble it, not only could it help locate other NNOF cases, but you could know what day the NNOF was printed. That IMO is priceless.
Guys, note the Darrin Jackson with the small amount of black missing from the top right corner. This is one I think everyone was unsure of existing - it does fit the streak. Also, I think it is fairly safe to assume that the streak stops at Tapani. This is because I pulled many Kneppers and all were fine. Also, some of my blackless cards have a similar horizontal scratch across the middle of the card - likely meaning they came from the same scratched sheet. I pulled a Knepper with the same scratch - and again there was no black missing.
Yes, someone that knows slantycouch, please alert him and ask him to update his picture!!!
Arghh!?$ Now I need a Darrin Jackson. Or maybe not. :-) Since I wasn't specifically looking for him, I may have missed him when I went through my cards the first time. Wish me luck!
Does anyone think, given all the research and uncovered evidence in this thread, that PSA will acknowledge any of these cards? The NNOF is the only one right now.
<< <i>I think it has to get in the big book first. >>
Good luck with that. I think Bob Lemke posts here ? Is he still at SCD? PSA started recognizing the 90 Upper Deck no copyright cards so they might recognize the bigger ones? I highly dout they will recognize Darrin Jackson? It fits in the puzzle but its just so little of the missing ink .
I have now officially opened the last of my packs from my case - as I still had close to 100 packs left after Friday night's marathon. Lots of interesting things to report. I pulled my 4th NNOF Thomas card, and 2 more normal Thomas cards. I also pulled 2 more of the similar pieces of stray cardboard. They were in the same pack and again both were right behind an orange F sheet card (one was behind a Kenny Rogers and the other behind a Todd Stottlemyre). One is very distinguisable as you can see by the writing on it - somebody at Topps should be able to tell us what this is. The most important thing is the fact I pulled 2 more different partial blackless Marcus Lawton cards. When you look at them next to the blackless streak copy and a regular copy, it clearly shows what looks like some kind of a residue blocking the black ink and gradually wearing off to resolve the blackless error. The blockage on the entire streak could be a combination of residue and paper, or possibly just some kind of residue alone. Donovan should be posting my pics shortly.
<< <i>I think it has to get in the big book first. >>
Good luck with that. I think Bob Lemke posts here ? Is he still at SCD? PSA started recognizing the 90 Upper Deck no copyright cards so they might recognize the bigger ones? I highly dout they will recognize Darrin Jackson? It fits in the puzzle but its just so little of the missing ink . >>
Jackstraw,
Do you have any pics (front & back) of a PSA graded 1990 no copyright UD card ?? ?
thanks man
rich
Buying: Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon 80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name" 90 ProSet Dexter Manley error 90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back 1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”) 81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat) 91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
<< <i>I think it has to get in the big book first. >>
Good luck with that. I think Bob Lemke posts here ? Is he still at SCD? PSA started recognizing the 90 Upper Deck no copyright cards so they might recognize the bigger ones? I highly dout they will recognize Darrin Jackson? It fits in the puzzle but its just so little of the missing ink . >>
Jackstraw,
Do you have any pics (front & back) of a PSA graded 1990 no copyright UD card ?? ?
<< <i>I think it has to get in the big book first. >>
Good luck with that. I think Bob Lemke posts here ? Is he still at SCD? PSA started recognizing the 90 Upper Deck no copyright cards so they might recognize the bigger ones? I highly dout they will recognize Darrin Jackson? It fits in the puzzle but its just so little of the missing ink . >>
Jackstraw,
Do you have any pics (front & back) of a PSA graded 1990 no copyright UD card ?? ?
thanks man
Here is mine in my collection. I just noticed they have one in the population so they must have started labeling them
Buying: Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon 80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name" 90 ProSet Dexter Manley error 90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back 1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”) 81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat) 91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
As far as the Bob Knepper goes, based on the clues I have uncovered, I feel it is likely that the affected blackless streak ended before reaching the Knepper card. If you look closely at the top border of the Tapani error, that border is just barely affected. It appears at that point the blackless streak is getting smaller and fading.
<< <i>As far as the Bob Knepper goes, based on the clues I have uncovered, I feel it is likely that the affected blackless streak ended before reaching the Knepper card. If you look closely at the top border of the Tapani error, that border is just barely affected. It appears at that point the blackless streak is getting smaller and fading. >>
Looking at the flow pic on page 29, the Tapini has a good sized area of blackless. Dont think that card was ruled out. None of your Tapini was like in the flow pic? Did you check your Kneppers?
Congrats on the other NNOF's you pulled and more importantly, thanks for opening the packs. Unsure what that paper could be. I know of a guy on another board who worked for Topps in 2001 and will see if he has any ideas on that paper or contact info for those who might.
The paper is most likely slip sheets or tags put in to mark stacks of so many sheets (100, 200, etc.) as they have been printed and are stacked by the press in the delivery end, a common practice.
I still believe that the problem originated with a batch of bad plates, either out of the box or in processing. It could also have been a bad neg used to burn the plates but I doubt it.
If it was paper stuck to the blanket the blanket would have been damaged and replaced as soon as the problem was discovered. Blankets can be repaired but an area that size is doubtful. Once something like a piece of paper sticks to the blanket and runs for numerous revolutions it "crashes" the blanket, making a compressed area. Blankets are made of layers of vulcanized rubber and canvas. The bad image area would have shown up early on and not progressed from bad to worse.
I think that a plate image degraded on the press or a series of bad plates was used with differing levels of bad image quality.
<< <i>it is a shame that cards fresh from packs are grading out at 8's...
hey rookie...how many did you have raw before you started busting packs? >>
whos grading ? 8 's ?
Buying: Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon 80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name" 90 ProSet Dexter Manley error 90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back 1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”) 81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat) 91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
The only thing that has been revealed by RookieWax (other than his great luck) is the Magrane we have been looking for.
We have been working hard to strongly define the parameters and look of each card in the "blackless" streak. Mainly this is done in the hope that we can get these things recognized and slabbed.
The theory that we arrived at, bad plate, is strongly supported by expert opinion on printing processes and the EXACT duplication of these cards in the hands of several people at this point.
Ultimately the numerous other variations found in 1990 Topps - discovered by RookieWax and others in this thread- are interesting but are UNRELATED to the purpose of this thread. Which is to define exactly which cards are directly connected to the famous Frank Thomas NNOF rookie.
Even if the printing error grew over time, or shrank, or there were other problems with the orange sheet along the way, etc. it is unimportant to identifying the cards which are the ones that are directly connected to the sheets that produced the important and valuable Frank Thomas card (which is the only thing that gives the other cards any significant value)
Lets narrow our focus here and not dilute the definition of the cards which are important- otherwise recogniton of a "1990 Topps Blackless" Group/Designation is compromised and may fail.
EDIT: Darrin Jackson discovery as well.
Always looking for 1993-1999 Baseball Finest Refractors and1994 Football Finest Refractors. saucywombat@hotmail.com
My opinions on the matter stand, and I think I've made them clear. In an effort not to turn this thread into a bickering match, and to also give Joe's amazing finds the publicity they deserve, I've backed out of the thread for awhile.
My personal opinion is that Joe's findings only further solidify information that we held to be as truths previously. I think the important thing is to recognize that he has come across a dream hoard and I'm certainly glad the events that have unfolded can be documented first hand in this thread.
It broke here first!
edited to add:
I would like to say I had all but given up hope at one day putting this set together. As I stated in the very first post in this thread, I hope to have these cards in my collection one day. Sadly, I've had people back out of deals with no warning and the few opportunities I've had to work toward my goal have come crashing down around me. Save the generosity of Dave, I'm no further along than in the first weeks of this thread. I was very frustrated by some of the behind the scenes dealings in the beginning and had decided to give up the quest with which this thread was intended. Joe's findings have given me renewed hope that I may one day make it happen.
So far I found 38 of the 99 no copyright versions of the 1990 Upper Deck variations.
Buying: Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon 80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name" 90 ProSet Dexter Manley error 90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back 1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”) 81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat) 91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
<< <i>The paper is most likely slip sheets or tags put in to mark stacks of so many sheets (100, 200, etc.) as they have been printed and are stacked by the press in the delivery end, a common practice.
I still believe that the problem originated with a batch of bad plates, either out of the box or in processing. It could also have been a bad neg used to burn the plates but I doubt it.
If it was paper stuck to the blanket the blanket would have been damaged and replaced as soon as the problem was discovered. Blankets can be repaired but an area that size is doubtful. Once something like a piece of paper sticks to the blanket and runs for numerous revolutions it "crashes" the blanket, making a compressed area. Blankets are made of layers of vulcanized rubber and canvas. The bad image area would have shown up early on and not progressed from bad to worse.
I think that a plate image degraded on the press or a series of bad plates was used with differing levels of bad image quality. >>
Great post and explanations. I agree 100% with your conclusions.
Yes, I agree the paper/cardboard probably was not a factor - mostly because of the shape of the black ink blockage and that the blocked area has some lighter and some darker areas - more of a smudge appearance. Printing experience or not though, when I pulled the same cards with varying degrees of missing black ink from the same case - including 5 different variations of the Tapani and Lawton- that points to something blocking the ink (and gradually wearing off) as sheets passing through the printer that day. I cannot imagine 5 different plates being used to print the cards within 1 case, with 4 of these plates nearby and containing varying degrees of missing black on the same cards in the same areas.
<< <i>Yes, I agree the paper/cardboard probably was not a factor - mostly because of the shape of the black ink blockage and that the blocked area has some lighter and some darker areas - more of a smudge appearance. Printing experience or not though, when I pulled the same cards with varying degrees of missing black ink from the same case - including 5 different variations of the Tapani and Lawton- that points to something blocking the ink (and gradually wearing off) as sheets passing through the printer that day. I cannot imagine 5 different plates being used to print the cards within 1 case, with 4 of these plates nearby and containing varying degrees of missing black on the same cards in the same areas. >>
Even after seeing the Topps factory photo Donovan showed? Cards from "1 case" could have come from any number of different sources within the facility.
I just found a Knepper with a tiny knick on it...Ill scan this weekend.
Small ., but something.
Buying: Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon 80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name" 90 ProSet Dexter Manley error 90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back 1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”) 81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat) 91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
Comments
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
example-
Page 4- Theory
Page 7- 3 NNOF Neighbors
Page 9- 2 NNOF Neighbors
Page 13- Theory
Page 15- Theory
Page 16- Donovans Social Security Number
Page 25- Collage
Page 26- Updated Collage
Page 27- NNOF/Partial pulled
RookieWax- Pic? email ready
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
Is it possible that these retail displays were put together by hand? This would make the most sense as it seems that packs contained cards from at least 3 different print runs here. Say at the factory there are piles of wax packs/boxes that employees grab from to build these cases. Maybe the guy pulls from a couple different piles to build this case? I've opened Topps wax cases before and it always seems that the cards came from the same print run (e.g. all of the Ryan's will be centered the same), so there has to be an explanation of why this case consisted of cards from different print runs.
<< <i>Good questions. It could be like Donovan suggested, where there are stacks of uncut sheets moved around and cut as needed. I remember someone saying they weren't sure if their NNOF Thomas was pulled from a wax pack or a cellophane pack bought at a store. The sheets producing the partial errors on Thomas/Tapani/Lawton seem go along with the NNOF sheets, but then the sheets that produced the regular Thomas/Tapani/Lawton cards in my case do not. I wish we had more specific personal accounts to go by from others who pulled the blackless cards. >>
I'll recap my assumptions- Looking at the picture of the Topps plant from 1974, you'll see numerous lines with workers placing packs in boxes. Boxes placed on belts. At the end of the belt is where I assume they grab the finished boxes and hand pack them in cases. I would think the product given to each line to be made into wax could be from different runs or even the same day but maybe only hours difference. Doubt the NNOF was printed for too long. Most of the time you'll have a consistant run but there are times when there is a brief flaw and that could get mixed into product that was later ran w/o flaws.
In my profession we pack produce. So I'm familiar with mixing runs. The sheets could have been printed and once their orders were filled and warehouse full, they stopped cutting and set the excess pallets of sheets aside. The forklift driver could then later grab these pallets of sheets as well as sheets being printed that day and moved them to the cutting area and then placed the product at one of the 6 or so lines.
As an example-
Line 1 & 2 Saturdays 8am printing (Normal printing)
Line 3 Saturday 1pm printing line (partial NNOF run)
Line 4 Saturday 2pm printing line (NNOF run)
Line 5-6 Monday (current day) printing
I assume the excess cards were stored as sheets. They could have been stored already cut as well.
Also in this pic you'll notice wax and cello on the belt at the same time. Therefore the NNOF could be in wax and cello if they had the same Standard Operating Procedures 16 years later.
Does the case have a inked number on the outside? In my profession we use 'Lot Numbers' that are inked on the outside of every carton. These will have a code that means something to the company for various reasons. In 1989 Fleer, which I'm most familiar with, it has these and the numbers are usually consistant. There are some inconsistencies and I think I have a good idea why. If this number is directly related to the printing and you can unscamble it, not only could it help locate other NNOF cases, but you could know what day the NNOF was printed. That IMO is priceless.
Yes, someone that knows slantycouch, please alert him and ask him to update his picture!!!
Arghh!?$ Now I need a Darrin Jackson. Or maybe not. :-) Since I wasn't specifically looking for him, I may have missed him when I went through my cards the first time. Wish me luck!
Cheers,
gigfy
I'll update that bad boy asap.
-Claude
<< <i>I think it has to get in the big book first. >>
Good luck with that. I think Bob Lemke posts here ? Is he still at SCD?
PSA started recognizing the 90 Upper Deck no copyright cards so they might
recognize the bigger ones? I highly dout they will recognize Darrin Jackson? It
fits in the puzzle but its just so little of the missing ink .
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
Bosox1976
<< <i>
<< <i>I think it has to get in the big book first. >>
Good luck with that. I think Bob Lemke posts here ? Is he still at SCD?
PSA started recognizing the 90 Upper Deck no copyright cards so they might
recognize the bigger ones? I highly dout they will recognize Darrin Jackson? It
fits in the puzzle but its just so little of the missing ink . >>
Jackstraw,
Do you have any pics (front & back) of a PSA graded 1990 no copyright UD card ?? ?
thanks man
rich
Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I think it has to get in the big book first. >>
Good luck with that. I think Bob Lemke posts here ? Is he still at SCD?
PSA started recognizing the 90 Upper Deck no copyright cards so they might
recognize the bigger ones? I highly dout they will recognize Darrin Jackson? It
fits in the puzzle but its just so little of the missing ink . >>
Jackstraw,
Do you have any pics (front & back) of a PSA graded 1990 no copyright UD card ?? ?
thanks man
rich >>
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I think it has to get in the big book first. >>
Good luck with that. I think Bob Lemke posts here ? Is he still at SCD?
PSA started recognizing the 90 Upper Deck no copyright cards so they might
recognize the bigger ones? I highly dout they will recognize Darrin Jackson? It
fits in the puzzle but its just so little of the missing ink . >>
Jackstraw,
Do you have any pics (front & back) of a PSA graded 1990 no copyright UD card ?? ?
thanks man
Here is mine in my collection. I just noticed they have one in the population so they must have started labeling them
rich >>
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
Also, another picture for viewing:
<< <i>As far as the Bob Knepper goes, based on the clues I have uncovered, I feel it is likely that the affected blackless streak ended before reaching the Knepper card. If you look closely at the top border of the Tapani error, that border is just barely affected. It appears at that point the blackless streak is getting smaller and fading. >>
Looking at the flow pic on page 29, the Tapini has a good sized area of blackless. Dont think that card was ruled out. None of your Tapini was like in the flow pic? Did you check your Kneppers?
Congrats on the other NNOF's you pulled and more importantly, thanks for opening the packs. Unsure what that paper could be. I know of a guy on another board who worked for Topps in 2001 and will see if he has any ideas on that paper or contact info for those who might.
The paper is most likely slip sheets or tags put in to mark stacks of so many sheets (100, 200, etc.) as they have been printed and are stacked by the press in the delivery end, a common practice.
I still believe that the problem originated with a batch of bad plates, either out of the box or in processing. It could also have been a bad neg used to burn the plates but I doubt it.
If it was paper stuck to the blanket the blanket would have been damaged and replaced as soon as the problem was discovered. Blankets can be repaired but an area that size is doubtful. Once something like a piece of paper sticks to the blanket and runs for numerous revolutions it "crashes" the blanket, making a compressed area. Blankets are made of layers of vulcanized rubber and canvas. The bad image area would have shown up early on and not progressed from bad to worse.
I think that a plate image degraded on the press or a series of bad plates was used with differing levels of bad image quality.
hey rookie...how many did you have raw before you started busting packs?
Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps
- uncut
Positive Transactions - tennesseebanker, Ahmanfan, Donruss, Colebear, CDsNuts, rbdjr1, Downtown1974, yankeeno7, drewsef, mnolan, mrbud60, msassin, RipublicaninMass, AkbarClone, rustywilly, lsutigers1973, julen23 and nam812, plus many others...
<< <i>it is a shame that cards fresh from packs are grading out at 8's...
hey rookie...how many did you have raw before you started busting packs? >>
whos grading ? 8 's ?
Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
The only thing that has been revealed by RookieWax (other than his great luck) is the Magrane we have been looking for.
We have been working hard to strongly define the parameters and look of each card in the "blackless" streak. Mainly this is done in the hope that we can get these things recognized and slabbed.
The theory that we arrived at, bad plate, is strongly supported by expert opinion on printing processes and the EXACT duplication of these cards in the hands of several people at this point.
Ultimately the numerous other variations found in 1990 Topps - discovered by RookieWax and others in this thread- are interesting but are UNRELATED to the purpose of this thread. Which is to define exactly which cards are directly connected to the famous Frank Thomas NNOF rookie.
Even if the printing error grew over time, or shrank, or there were other problems with the orange sheet along the way, etc. it is unimportant to identifying the cards which are the ones that are directly connected to the sheets that produced the important and valuable Frank Thomas card (which is the only thing that gives the other cards any significant value)
Lets narrow our focus here and not dilute the definition of the cards which are important- otherwise recogniton of a "1990 Topps Blackless" Group/Designation is compromised and may fail.
EDIT: Darrin Jackson discovery as well.
saucywombat@hotmail.com
My personal opinion is that Joe's findings only further solidify information that we held to be as truths previously. I think the important thing is to recognize that he has come across a dream hoard and I'm certainly glad the events that have unfolded can be documented first hand in this thread.
It broke here first!
edited to add:
I would like to say I had all but given up hope at one day putting this set together. As I stated in the very first post in this thread, I hope to have these cards in my collection one day. Sadly, I've had people back out of deals with no warning and the few opportunities I've had to work toward my goal have come crashing down around me. Save the generosity of Dave, I'm no further along than in the first weeks of this thread. I was very frustrated by some of the behind the scenes dealings in the beginning and had decided to give up the quest with which this thread was intended. Joe's findings have given me renewed hope that I may one day make it happen.
Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
<< <i>The paper is most likely slip sheets or tags put in to mark stacks of so many sheets (100, 200, etc.) as they have been printed and are stacked by the press in the delivery end, a common practice.
I still believe that the problem originated with a batch of bad plates, either out of the box or in processing. It could also have been a bad neg used to burn the plates but I doubt it.
If it was paper stuck to the blanket the blanket would have been damaged and replaced as soon as the problem was discovered. Blankets can be repaired but an area that size is doubtful. Once something like a piece of paper sticks to the blanket and runs for numerous revolutions it "crashes" the blanket, making a compressed area. Blankets are made of layers of vulcanized rubber and canvas. The bad image area would have shown up early on and not progressed from bad to worse.
I think that a plate image degraded on the press or a series of bad plates was used with differing levels of bad image quality. >>
Great post and explanations. I agree 100% with your conclusions.
<< <i>Yes, I agree the paper/cardboard probably was not a factor - mostly because of the shape of the black ink blockage and that the blocked area has some lighter and some darker areas - more of a smudge appearance. Printing experience or not though, when I pulled the same cards with varying degrees of missing black ink from the same case - including 5 different variations of the Tapani and Lawton- that points to something blocking the ink (and gradually wearing off) as sheets passing through the printer that day. I cannot imagine 5 different plates being used to print the cards within 1 case, with 4 of these plates nearby and containing varying degrees of missing black on the same cards in the same areas. >>
Even after seeing the Topps factory photo Donovan showed? Cards from "1 case" could have come from any number of different sources within the facility.
<< <i>So what's the verdict on #104 Knepper? Is it part of this group or not? >>
No reason to think Knepper is included at this point Bob.
Small ., but something.
Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”