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FINAL UPDATE: The buyer of my set filed a dispute with Paypal-- Received the return today

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  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    What you say is true and to us makes sense he was playing devils advocate and just giving another side.

    IMO the buyer here is a real crud, however, i can see where he is coming from (the devils advocate).


    Steve
    Good for you.
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i>IF the PP-account holder is using a PP-linked checking account as "auto-pay" for
    EBAY-fees, PP will PIGGYBACK any PP-account deficit on the day the EBAY fees
    are to be paid. >>



    Correct. This is buried in their TOS, which is why I never setup automatic payments.

    Russ, NCNE
  • OPAOPA Posts: 17,141 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> (which I don't believe-- open capsules were a problem with buffalo golds, but I've never seen an open capsule on a platinum).

    My 08 unc plats were open and floating, jfyi >>



    Same here, but only the capsules...the coins were still in the capsules ....
    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • ..he has never contacted you - never made any attempt to respond ;

    what kind of spineless wimp is he ?
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,291 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>..he has never contacted you - never made any attempt to respond ;

    what kind of spineless wimp is he ? >>



    You could contact the guy thru eBay and ask him.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • .......I could also write letters to convicted felons in the penitentiary-

    but I chose not to


  • << <i>I can speak from experience when I say that PayPal will turn you over to a collection agency if you don't. >>



    Me too. They will hound you until you change your phone number. I would get as many as 10 calls per day, sometimes 1 call per week. I never changed my phone number, but I did open up a new PP account with no problems. They are idiots!!!
  • bestdaybestday Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭✭
    kiss that money goodbye.PP will side with buyer.
    Strange but 2 months ago PP steadfastly backed a seller of investment letter charging me for something I hadn't ordered. Only after I called American Express ,did PP change their tune and refund my money
  • nycounselnycounsel Posts: 1,229 ✭✭
    On Saturday, Paypal notified me that it was finding in favor of the buyer.

    Dear ______,

    As you know, your buyer has filed a claim for the following transaction:

    Transaction Details

    Buyer's Name: Xxxxx Xxxxxx
    Buyer's Email: xxxxx@xxxx.com

    Transaction Date:
    Transaction Amount: -$3,863.95 USD
    Case Number: PP-637-193-xxx

    We have determined that your buyer is entitled to a refund for this transaction. To receive this refund, the buyer must return the item to you and provide us with their shipping information. Once we verify this information, we will issue the buyer a refund from your PayPal account.
    Please note, the buyer is responsible for the cost of returning the item to you.

    We apologize for the difficulties you had with this transaction and truly hope that you find this resolution to be fair and reasonable for everyone involved.

    Sincerely,
    Janine
    Protection Services Department
    PayPal, an eBay Company

    Dan
  • nycounselnycounsel Posts: 1,229 ✭✭
    I called Paypal today. They are useless.

    According to my paypal account:

    Status
    We contacted the buyer and let them know that you would agree to process a full refund if they return the merchandise to you in its original condition.

    The buyer will ship the item to this address:

    xxx Xxxx Avenue, XXXX, NY 1xxxx, United States

    The listing didn't accurately describe the item.

    What happens next

    The buyer is required to provide tracking information confirming that they shipped the merchandise to you by Mar. 10, 2009. If we don't receive this information, the claim will be closed and a refund will not be issued.

    ______________________________________________________________________

    Of course, the buyer CAN'T return this to me in original condition, since I sent him a sealed box and he's opened it.

    Their finding that "The listing didn't accurately describe the item" is completely false.

    All the buyer has to do is provide tracking information to receive a refund?? What if HE sends me an empty box? I called paypal to find out. They said I could then file a dispute. Of course, considering that they found against me in this dispute -- where I sent and the buyer admitted receiving a sealed box set-- what guarantee is there that they will find in my favor the next time? None, of course.

    I'm sorry, I don't have an answer here, but I have very much soured on using paypal.

    As a seller, you are at the mercy of an organization that clearly doesn't care a bit.
    Dan
  • streeterstreeter Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NYC,

    Thank you for taking the time to share this experience so that others will be the wiser.

    I am sorry for your misfortune.
    Have a nice day
  • nycounsel; your avatar is quite fitting, given your situation.
  • CoinlearnerCoinlearner Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image.......NOT unexpected. Certainly is not justified but little recourse,other than speaking to an attorney about filing a court action. HOPE the set is returned in good order,other than being opened,of course.
  • dbldie55dbldie55 Posts: 7,741 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What if there is no money in your Paypal account (or is it now frozen)? I would immediately file a claim that the item was not returned in the original condition.

    Without going through pages of threads, did you out the buyer. I am sure everyone using ebay would want to block him.
    Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
  • OPAOPA Posts: 17,141 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't sell unopened expensive Mint Sealed products on eBay. Come to think of it...no dealer is going to buy an expensive unopened product w/o looking to see what they are getting. I sure wouldn't.
    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • I had a problem last year when I sold a 1950 $50 note to a guy that left positive feedback and I had a delivery confirmation. He said it was never received and they agreed and I was out 70.00. I hate paypal but in order to sell some items they and ebay are the best way. Seller protection is garbage.
  • nycounselnycounsel Posts: 1,229 ✭✭
    the buyer's id is: verta5953

    ebay auction listing

    There is nothing in his feedback to indicate a problem. I'm not sure if he's dishonest.

    What I can say is that he purchased a sealed box set. He promptly paid by paypal and I left him positive feedback to that effect.

    I emailed him several times to confirm his address - he never once responded.

    The day the set was received, he filed a dispute with paypal saying that it was not as described.

    His complaint was that a capsule (within the sealed box) was open (and/or missing?) a top.

    I emailed him to try to resolve. Despite my repeated attempts to contact him, he has never called or emailed me.

    Paypal is the real villain here; I explained in detail how this was a sealed box transaction, and the buyer admitted receiving a sealed box containing the type of set it should. I'm not sure what the case is at this point; I offered to replace the capsule if it was missing a top (I've heard of open capsules, but never heard of one missing the top). Anyway, we'll see what happens. He has until March 10 to return to me. You can be darn sure I will open this one in front of a neutral witness, and probably videotape it, in case he sends me an empty box.
    Dan
  • nycounselnycounsel Posts: 1,229 ✭✭
    I would immediately file a claim that the item was not returned in the original condition.

    I tried to explain to Paypal that since the buyer opened the box, he couldn't possibly return in original condition. Their position was that if the contents were in original condition, that would suffice (despite the fact an open box is worth less than a sealed box).

    I told them that the reason sealed boxes carried a premium was because it prevented the seller from cherrypicking; and if the buyer opened, there would be no way to know if he received good coins and replaced them with flawed ones. They said I could then claim the item was not in original condition. I tried to explain that there was no way I could do that-- having never viewed the coins, I am in no position to know the condition-- but they just don't understand the issue. If the guy sends back a 2008w platinum uncirculated set, I think I'm stuck accepting it regardless of the condition. I might lose several hundred dollars in the process, but I'm not dishonest.
    Dan
  • nycounselnycounsel Posts: 1,229 ✭✭
    Don't sell unopened expensive Mint Sealed products on eBay.

    I have to agree. In addition to what happened here, a sealed box sale means the buyer receives the original Mint invoice, which contains all your address information.

    Come to think of it...no dealer is going to buy an expensive unopened product w/o looking to see what they are getting. I sure wouldn't.

    I've purchased expensive sealed box sets as a way to get coins that haven't been cherrypicked. However, when I decide to open the box -- assuming it's an original sealed box and hasn't been tampered with -- I'm assuming the risk that the coins are less than perfect; that's part of the deal. In a sealed box transaction, no promise is made or implied as to the condition of the coins inside, only that they are the type of coins they should be.
    Dan
  • aficionadoaficionado Posts: 2,309 ✭✭✭

    Think Positive. Maybe you'll have a couple 70's.

    The buyer probably didn't even look at the coins. Once he saw the capsule open, it was over.

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,574 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I got a headache reading this.
    There's a great lesson here, but I haven't learned it, yet.
  • This thread convinced me to close both my ebay and paypal accounts. I am free.
  • adamlaneusadamlaneus Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭
    Devils advocate:

    What are your damages in terms of dollars.

    I understand that some folks put a premium on an unopened mint box. But some folks do not. So the price difference here is somewhere between $0 and ?.

    Is there a major retailer that sells both opened sets and unopened boxes and has two retail prices from which you can calculate a simple difference?

    It may be hard to show, specifically, what monitary damages you have experienced from the box being opened.

    It is not as easy as taking the price of your auction result and comparing it to another auction result. It's not as easy as reselling that box in a new listing and taking the difference in price between the original sale and that sale. There is a time factor; there is the bidiot factor (I think you will agree this buyer is a bidiot of some sort).

    How does one calculate monitary damages accurately in this case? I'm talking "high bar of proof", not just handwaving.

    I'm not challenging the issue here. I'm thinking that if you had a good way of expressing your damages, it will make your case with PayPal stronger.
  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 16,961 ✭✭✭
    A future solution is don't sell the box. If it is sealed for a reason, send it to PCGS get the darned first strike label and then sell what ever you get back.
  • adamlaneusadamlaneus Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭
    This particular sealed box was not qualified for First Strike.
  • eyoung429eyoung429 Posts: 6,374
    When the customer returns the box, open it in front of the postmaster at your local PO. If the box has different tape than when you sent it out, they are in violation of the return agreement as "return in original packaging" as the box you sent them was unopened. Also, this will insure that you have a witness if you open the box and the contents are not the originals or otherwise.

    Then you file a claim through paypal, get them Naru'd and hopefully recoupe your original sellers fees as well.

    Sucks to be you in this position but next time add in the auction "Buyer/Winner will be receiving an ORIGINALLY SEALED BOX FROM THE MINT" and that you are not responsible for the original packaging inside the sealed box.


    This is a very dumb ass thread. - Laura Sperber - Tuesday January 09, 2007 11:16 AM image

    Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
  • since you're talking about paypal......i sent a 1 ounce gold bar to a guy in august.....delivery conf. and insurance.....he filed a chargeback dispute on his cc in december.... of course i no longer had my del. confirmation info,it had been 4 months...long story short, found for him and took my account to a -$768 balance. i asked them"what about my gold bar???" they said,SORRY...so i use my wifes account and they can shove the negative balance
  • nycounselnycounsel Posts: 1,229 ✭✭
    Devils advocate:

    What are your damages in terms of dollars.

    I understand that some folks put a premium on an unopened mint box. But some folks do not. So the price difference here is somewhere between $0 and ?.

    Is there a major retailer that sells both opened sets and unopened boxes and has two retail prices from which you can calculate a simple difference?

    It may be hard to show, specifically, what monitary damages you have experienced from the box being opened.

    It is not as easy as taking the price of your auction result and comparing it to another auction result. It's not as easy as reselling that box in a new listing and taking the difference in price between the original sale and that sale. There is a time factor; there is the bidiot factor (I think you will agree this buyer is a bidiot of some sort).

    How does one calculate monitary damages accurately in this case? I'm talking "high bar of proof", not just handwaving.


    Damages are out-of-pocket costs in shipping plus the time value of the $3849 over the month. The market places a premium on a sealed mint box, probably about $200-300. The average price difference between a sealed box and open box could be ascertained by reviewing completed ebay sales, if you're really interested, feel free to research that. There is also a chance that the buyer received good coins and swapped them out with dogs; if that were to happen, the damages would be the difference between 70s and 69s.

    This set closed at a pretty fair premium to the going rate -- the auction closed at $3849, when the expected close would be about $3400. Assuming the second place bidder was upstanding, I've lost $$ to the extent the auction exceeded expected price.

    There's really no point trying to do a precise calculation because there are too many unknowns. The losses are definitely more than $0, and probably around $400-$500, assuming that the buyer returns the coins.

    If I resell the returned set, calculating the damages is a simple matter of subtracting $3849 plus expenses from whatever it sells for the second time around.
    Dan
  • nycounselnycounsel Posts: 1,229 ✭✭
    since you're talking about paypal......i sent a 1 ounce gold bar to a guy in august.....delivery conf. and insurance.....he filed a chargeback dispute on his cc in december.... of course i no longer had my del. confirmation info,it had been 4 months...long story short, found for him and took my account to a -$768 balance. i asked them"what about my gold bar???" they said,SORRY...so i use my wifes account and they can shove the negative balance

    wow, that's sick. sorry to hear it. From a seller's perspective, there are very significant risks to accepting paypal.
    Dan
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭
    I'm avoiding PayPal more and more, and now that it's being forced on you (for practical purposes) as an eBay seller, no more selling on eBay.
  • CoinlearnerCoinlearner Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image....Wondering if it would have an impact,if many of us made some "noise" calling,e-mailing,sending a letter about not honoring the seller "protection" as they like to advertise. If this becomes commom-place behavior on the buyers' part, sellers will not be the only ones hurt by this.

  • I am so sorry to hear this.

    I would be sure to inspect the contents of the box that he ships back BEFORE you sign anything. Have you asked PayPal what happens if the returned item is not what you sent or sold to this guy?

    I had a guy try to do a similar thing but he never followed up by returning the item.




    Larry
    Dabigkahuna
  • GRANDAMGRANDAM Posts: 8,759 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Will PayPal wait to refund the guys money UNTIL you confirm receipt of the returned coins?

    What if you get an empty box back? What happens then?

    This SUCKS!!!

    JMHO, GrandAm image
    GrandAm :)
  • nycounselnycounsel Posts: 1,229 ✭✭
    Will PayPal wait to refund the guys money UNTIL you confirm receipt of the returned coins?

    What if you get an empty box back? What happens then?

    This SUCKS!!!


    According to the Paypal representative I spoke with, if I get an empty box back I can then file a claim against him.

    Of course, this means it's my word versus his, and that didn't work out so well for me the first time. So if I get an empty box back, it's again a question of fact. He provides proof of mailing and receipt, and I provide an affidavit saying I received an empty box. Someone at paypal supposedly reviews the submissions (flips a coin) and decides the outcome. So -- to get to the real question -- yes, there's a chance I end up without the money OR the coins -- sounds like someone else responding had that happen to them.
    Dan
  • RBinTexRBinTex Posts: 4,328
    What a shock! image
  • sinin1sinin1 Posts: 7,500
    open the box in front of a post office teller before you leave the post office, preferably one that is a notary if available


    you may get a box of rocks - then you can send the postal authorities after them



    eBay wanted to make it safer for buyers to not get scammed because then they never come back



    the scammers have now switched to scamming on the buy side

    I wonder how many sellers eBay has to lose until they rethink their position



    hopefully everything works out well for you nycounsel
  • It is vitally important that you document that you open that box in the presence of a postal inspector or a cop or someone that will be willing to testify if neccesary. The way the buyer has handled this has scam written all over it.

    But, if I was him and I bought that set from you and it was like he said it was, I would have emailed you, sent you a picture of the problem and expected a refund or exchange. I wouldnt have gone to paypal unless you refused. You are the point of sale, he cant go to the mint for an exchange and it is reasonable for a buyer to expect to receive them undamaged.

    Therefore that is risk you take when selling a sealed box that someone might return a damaged set to you. Couldnt you return it to the mint?

  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It may be of interest here that PCGS documents every box they open by filming. So opening such a box in front of some kind of security camera might help your situation. And I believe there's a wrong way and right way to open a box in front of a camera.


    Leo

    Edited to add; you might just have it scanned with a device where you wouldn't need to open it.

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • frnklnlvrfrnklnlvr Posts: 2,750


    << <i>Will PayPal wait to refund the guys money UNTIL you confirm receipt of the returned coins?

    What if you get an empty box back? What happens then?

    This SUCKS!!!


    According to the Paypal representative I spoke with, if I get an empty box back I can then file a claim against him.

    Of course, this means it's my word versus his, and that didn't work out so well for me the first time. So if I get an empty box back, it's again a question of fact. He provides proof of mailing and receipt, and I provide an affidavit saying I received an empty box. Someone at paypal supposedly reviews the submissions (flips a coin) and decides the outcome. So -- to get to the real question -- yes, there's a chance I end up without the money OR the coins -- sounds like someone else responding had that happen to them. >>



    I hope you get the coins back okay. Maybe you can get some 70s out of there.
  • I hope you get your coins back! If so I would feel real lucky. I am never going to sell a sealed box on ebay again. I may never sell on ebay again as it is, because of paypal being required.
    Good Luck
  • NYC, sorry for the way this turned.

    I would definiotely file a counter claim against the buyer as you can be fully assured that you will not recieve your return in the original condiotion you sold it as. IT WAS OPENED!!!! there is no way the buyer can re-seal it as a mint sealed package. File a reverse claim and let POOPPAL sort it out.

    Let the buyer jump through hoops to get his account credited. He didn't even have the courtesy to contact you personally.!!!

    There is nothing dishonest about filing the claim for not recieving your package back in original condition. Heck, , when POOPPAL sides with you, you can then send the opened package back to the buyer.
    Luck happens when preparation meets opportunity.



  • Absolutely!!!

    I agree with Coinhog.
  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭
    Ahh the joys of retail.......with anonymous people on ebay.

    Sorry for your hassle and loss.
  • ResRes Posts: 1,086
    I got my UHR today and the capsule was out of the slot in the box. It happens. Sorry for your loss.
  • CertifiedGoldCoinsCertifiedGoldCoins Posts: 1,644 ✭✭✭
    A very unfortunate situation, but a growing problem with eBay. NYC, I hope that you are merely dealing with a jerk, and not a crook. And I'm glad that I stopped selling on eBay on May 20, 2007. I still do some buying there, but only because buyers are well protected. Sellers no longer are. image
    Good deals with: goldman86 mkman123 Wingsrule wondercoin segoja Tccuga OKCC LindeDad and others.

    my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
  • nycounselnycounsel Posts: 1,229 ✭✭
    I just received the following email from Paypal:

    PayPal has received online tracking information for the return of your item(s):

    Tracking Company: USPS
    Tracking Number: 0308269000016838xxxx

    You can resolve this case faster by logging in and indicating that you have received the returned item. This will release the refund to the buyer automatically. If you do not report the item returned, PayPal will verify the tracking information and release the refund for you with no penalty.

    Thank you for your cooperation.

    Sincerely,

    Protection Services Department



    It sounds like they are NOT requiring signature verification or any verification from me that I received the set in question. I'm not sure how I'll get a witness to verify the contents at my post office, which is a busy location and not at all helpful.

    Oh, and on top of this, paypal is including the shipping and insurance amount of the transaction, which was about $35 less than I actually paid, in the amount to be refunded to the buyer.
    Dan
  • carscars Posts: 1,904
    I would take picture of the package & get a letter from postmaster when you pick up the box, Take it the your local police department and open it in front of law enforcement.
    Its all relative
  • nycounselnycounsel Posts: 1,229 ✭✭
    I would take picture of the package & get a letter from postmaster when you pick up the box, Take it the your local police department and open it in front of law enforcement.

    I live in New York. My chances of getting a letter from the local postmaster (or anyone at the post office) are zero, and if I took it to my local police department to open the package they would treat me like a lunatic and probably arrest me.
    Dan
  • carscars Posts: 1,904
    I sometimes forget I live in a small town where everyone is on first name basis.
    Its all relative
  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭
    Do you have a video camera? Maybe you can video tape the opening of the box?

    What a pain in the rear.

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