He has your coins and took your money and knows that PayPal is a bunch of impotent stooges when it comes to this kind of stuff. Theft charges seem to be the next logical step. The swifter, the better, as he didn't wait to go crying to PayPal about a dislodged capsule. Drop the charges after a postal inspector witnesses you opening the package containing your coins.
I would like to make a suggestion to all of you who deal with ebay and paypal. If you're going to sell and ship an item which costs $3000+ dollars, then I recommend that you ship it REGISTERED, RESTRICTED DELIVERY (This means that only the person whose name is on the package can accept and sign for it), and of course ELECTRONIC RETURN RECEIPT (Costs one dollar if you're using registered). That is the only way I ship when I sell an expensive coin. If a scammer wants to play games, I tell them that the US Postal Inspector will handle it and I will press criminal charges.
<< <i>I would like to make a suggestion to all of you who deal with ebay and paypal. If you're going to sell and ship an item which costs $3000+ dollars, then I recommend that you ship it REGISTERED, RESTRICTED DELIVERY (This means that only the person whose name is on the package can accept and sign for it), and of course ELECTRONIC RETURN RECEIPT (Costs one dollar if you're using registered). That is the only way I ship when I sell an expensive coin. If a scammer wants to play games, I tell them that the US Postal Inspector will handle it and I will press criminal charges. >>
Non delivery is not the issue here so how would doing what you say have kept the coins in their capsules? Coins coming out of their capsules is not an uncommon thing so he may be telling the truth or he may be using it as an excuse to gain concessions from the seller. Its one guy's word against the other's.
I didn't see this idea (I only scanned some of the posts), so try this:
In the dispute page on PayPal, phrase a simple question, such as, "I want to confirm that when you received my package, inside was a sealed box from the US Mint, and that outer box was in good condition." As long as you can get him to say yes, then you may have a better change fighting the SNAD, as he clearly has just stated that he received exactly what you said he would; your auction has no claims to the condition of the contents, just that the outer box is sealed.
2.) If you have your bank Account link to your PayPal Account, sweep the funds out of the Bank Account ASAP. However is you have overdraft, you are screwed.
Paypal can NO longer go into linked bank accounts. The only money they can freeze is money in your paypal account.
<< <i>2.) If you have your bank Account link to your PayPal Account, sweep the funds out of the Bank Account ASAP. However is you have overdraft, you are screwed.
Paypal can NO longer go into linked bank accounts. The only money they can freeze is money in your paypal account.
Steve >>
Could PayPal ever just take money out of a linked account? That seams crazy to me.
I have handled over 200 mint sealed platinum coins including 100+ sets and I do recall maybe 2 or 3 with loose capsules. Don't recall any with loose coins.
I had warned in a seperate thread about this problem with the Buffal coins/sets and I'd advise against buying any sealed sets and if you sell them be prepared for this problem.
<< <i>I didn't see this idea (I only scanned some of the posts), so try this:
In the dispute page on PayPal, phrase a simple question, such as, "I want to confirm that when you received my package, inside was a sealed box from the US Mint, and that outer box was in good condition." As long as you can get him to say yes, then you may have a better change fighting the SNAD, as he clearly has just stated that he received exactly what you said he would; your auction has no claims to the condition of the contents, just that the outer box is sealed. >>
How can a seller make any claim/warranty as to the condition of contents that he can't see? He can only rely on the mint to have done things correctly. Even a dealer requires you to sign a waiver/disclaimer saying they aren't reponsible for defects in a car since they didn't make the vehicle.
<< <i>I didn't see this idea (I only scanned some of the posts), so try this:
In the dispute page on PayPal, phrase a simple question, such as, "I want to confirm that when you received my package, inside was a sealed box from the US Mint, and that outer box was in good condition." As long as you can get him to say yes, then you may have a better change fighting the SNAD, as he clearly has just stated that he received exactly what you said he would; your auction has no claims to the condition of the contents, just that the outer box is sealed. >>
How can a seller make any claim/warranty as to the condition of contents that he can't see? He can only rely on the mint to have done things correctly? Even a dealer requires you to sign a waiver/disclaimer saying they aren't reponsible for defects in a car since they didn't make the vehicle. >>
Exactly - you were selling a Mint sealed box containing four coins. The buyer received a Mint-sealed box containing four coins. Should be the end of the discussion. Now good luck getting someone at PayPal to understand and agree with this concept.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>It was this kind of stuff turned me off to ebay. Just not worth the time and aggravation. Eventually someone will stiff you.
roadrunner >>
I agree! But it was PayPal who tried to scam me by freezing my account. I threatened to write to the AG's offices of all 50 states with my claim against them. They released my funds and I completely stopped dealing with both of those organizations.
"<< Maybe it's just my 12 years on ebay always trying to keep the buyers happy. >> The buyer filed a SNAD claim right out of the gate without even having the courtesy to contact the seller. He deserves no consideration."
This is certainly a fair point. But, my original comments were simply based upon my instincts having been around ebay for 12 years. My thoughts were:
1. Buyer is not a seasoned platinum buyer by any means (heck, he paid a huge premium for a sealed box and then opened it) 2. Buyer truly was surprised and disappointed by what he found when he opened the box (he did not claim coins were missing - the true sign of a "cheater"). 3. Buyer thought his only immediate protection was to "dipute" the charge ASAP.
NOW... here's what separates the "honest" from the "scammers"...
Once contact is made with the buyer, if he is willing to work to easily resolve the problem (e.g. my suggestion of fresh clean replacement coins for the one or two "problem" capsules) or if he takes an unreasonable position such as "I want my money back and I don't want to deal with you anymore or listen to anything you say". This is what would tell me whether I am dealing with an honest newbie or not. But, it is generally better to not rush to judgment as what may appear us here on the forum as sinister behavior is often times just honest inexperienced behavior. Perhaps we have a "bad guy" here - but, until he reacts to a fair suggestion to resolve the issue, my thinking would be to not immediately come to that conclusion.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Thanks to everyone for the supportive comments. The community spirit here is appreciated.
To clarify a few things:
1. The buyer has never contacted me.
Immediately after learning of the complaint from paypal, I called them to determine the reason for the dispute. When they explained the capsule issue I emailed the buyer to try to resolve the claim amicably. I gave him my work number and asked him to call. To this point, no response.
2. I'm not 100% confident in paypal's description of the issue.
The problem as described by paypal was confusing; they said one coin was out of the capsule, and that another was missing the capsule top. Now, in years of buying these sets, I've never encountered either type of problem. The buffalo gold sets have had a running problem with loose capsules; but it's not a common issue with platinums. I've never heard of a capsule that was just "missing" a top-- I suspect that wasn't the case, but was only the buyer's attempt to describe that the capsule was open. No way of knowing since the buyer hasn't contacted me.
3. Shipping.
A few people commented on the manner of shipping. The item was received, so it's not really an issue here, but I sent it by registered mail, with delivery confirmation. The delivery confirmation form I used was green and was an extra 65 cents, so I don't think that it was "signature confirmation." However, since I believe the registered mail service requires a signature and identification, I'm not sure that the signature confirmation would be required. In any event, if this is not considered an acceptable way to ship a high dollar item, I would appreciate knowing what the best practice is.
4. I'm not sure this was a "scam"
I hesistate to say that the buyer is trying to pull a "scam", but the fact is that I sold a sealed box set, promptly delivered a sealed box set, and the buyer opened it. The complaint is NOT that I sent a different set than promised, but that a capsule in that box was open. Even if true, it's just not something that a seller of a sealed box could control, nor does it justify an attempt by the buyer to rescind the transaction. If it was a "scam", the buyer could have claimed he didn't receive the coins, instead of complaining about the capsule. But I do think that the fact that the buyer has never once emailed me does not reflect favorably on him. Now that the set is open, it has lost some market value. On top of that, there's nothing to prevent the buyer from simply swapping out different coins.
5. A mistake I made.
One thing that I identify as a mistake on my part was giving the buyer positive feedback before the transaction was over. I felt like it was a gesture of good faith on my part; he paid promptly and I left feedback to indicate as much. Under the circumstances, I feel very unhappy that I left this person positive feedback; I do not believe that his behavior in this case warrants it.
Thanks again for all the comments. If I hear from the buyer, I will be sure to say so on this thread. I'm putting together materials to submit to Payal, and will share the outcome here. As a buyer, I appreciate the protection afforded by paypal, but the fact is that the whole system is vulnerable to people who are unreasonable or have bad intentions and despite our best efforts, it can be very difficult to avoid problems.
<< <i>The item was received, so it's not really an issue here, but I sent it by registered mail, with delivery confirmation. The delivery confirmation form I used was green and was an extra 65 cents, so I don't think that it was "signature confirmation." However, since I believe the registered mail service requires a signature and identification, I'm not sure that the signature confirmation would be required. In any event, if this is not considered an acceptable way to ship a high dollar item, I would appreciate knowing what the best practice is. >>
FYI: Delivery Confirmation is included in the purchase of Registered Mail and shows as such on-line. Though a signature is required for a Registered package, on-line Signature Confirmation is not part of the deal and must be purchased separately. This is a must for puchases paid with PayPal.
<< <i>However, since I believe the registered mail service requires a signature and identification, I'm not sure that the signature confirmation would be required. >>
Again, for an INR or unauthorized use claim, signature confirmation is required under the PayPal protection policy.
This entire scenarion sucks and I really see no way that it could have been avoided.
Your biggest loss is that you no longer have a "sealed" box to sell and have lost any possibility of attaining that specific profit.
Think about this: The scenario could conceivably get applied to Original Bank Wrapped rolls of coins as far as paypal and ebay are concerned. I certainly don't have any answers or "sure thing" responses other than "seller's beware".
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
FYI: Delivery Confirmation is included in the purchase of Registered Mail and shows as such on-line. Though a signature is required for a Registered package, on-line Signature Confirmation is not part of the deal and must be purchased separately. This is a must for puchases paid with PayPal.
Again, for an INR or unauthorized use claim, signature confirmation is required under the PayPal protection policy.
Good to know -- I thought registered covered it, but I guess that's not the case. I'll be sure to use signature confirmation next time. Thanks!
If PP/eBay was to somehow rule against you, would legal action be appropriate? Even tho it does not appear to be an issue, they could use your failure to use sig conf as a technicality by which to rule in favor of the buyer. How can they legally enforce some sort of arbitrary rule of theirs which may be contrary to law or UCC?
If PP/eBay was to somehow rule against you, would legal action be appropriate? Even tho it does not appear to be an issue, they could use your failure to use sig conf as a technicality by which to rule in favor of the buyer. How can they legally enforce some sort of arbitrary rule of theirs which may be contrary to law or UCC?
Well, in this case, the buyer made a complaint about the capsule; he is not claiming that the coins were not received, so his own complaint would defeat any claim that the set was not received.
In a different case, a court would need to resolve issues of fact. I'm not sure how binding a determination by paypal or ebay would be. Filing a claim in court directly against a party in an ebay transaction is possible, but the logistics and cost of suing someone who is in a different state, or enforcing a judgment should you win, probably keep most cases from ever reaching court. That said, I think I might look into what claims I can file against paypal. I suspect that whatever electronic agreement we enter into with paypal is designed to defeat a claim against them, but it's something I might explore.
For the rest of the world, Registered Mail works just fine without signature confirmation. So what if it isn't tracked until it is signed for on the receiving end? ebay and paypal are injecting problems into the equation for anyone who wants to sell, and it will hurt them in the end. They deserve to be out of business.
I never had any problem by requiring payment in check or money order form, because I waited for the funds to become secured. The only buyer I ever had a problem with was a guy who decided to change the terms of my auction after the fact. paypal and ebay deserve to be out of business.
Did I mention that a shlock operation like ebay & paypal deserve to be out of business?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>For the rest of the world, Registered Mail works just fine without signature confirmation. So what if it isn't tracked until it is signed for on the receiving end? ebay and paypal are injecting problems into the equation for anyone who wants to sell, and it will hurt them in the end. And they deserve to be out of business. >>
I don't know if they deserve to be out of business yet, maybe, but they definitely deserve to get a kick in the a--ss.
While I never like to see folks have to go through this crap I don't know of another current venue out there that you can get that many people to over pay for your product.
While I never like to see folks have to go through this crap I don't know of another current venue out there that you can get that many people to over pay for your product.
That's certainly true. Like coolest, I tried the BST forum for a set that I priced based on the most recent ebay sales, adjusted downwards for ebay and paypal fees, and there wasn't any interest.
I've been complaining about paypal for years and ardent ebay sellers on here just ignored it, unfortunately with their latest move of requiring it, paypal i.e. we are stuck with this crap as long as we sell there. From 1999 till 3 years ago I was selling $3k-6K a year there. Now its more hassle than its worth to me.
<< <i>If PP/eBay was to somehow rule against you, would legal action be appropriate? Even tho it does not appear to be an issue, they could use your failure to use sig conf as a technicality by which to rule in favor of the buyer. How can they legally enforce some sort of arbitrary rule of theirs which may be contrary to law or UCC?
Well, in this case, the buyer made a complaint about the capsule; he is not claiming that the coins were not received, so his own complaint would defeat any claim that the set was not received.
In a different case, a court would need to resolve issues of fact. I'm not sure how binding a determination by paypal or ebay would be. Filing a claim in court directly against a party in an ebay transaction is possible, but the logistics and cost of suing someone who is in a different state, or enforcing a judgment should you win, probably keep most cases from ever reaching court. That said, I think I might look into what claims I can file against paypal. I suspect that whatever electronic agreement we enter into with paypal is designed to defeat a claim against them, but it's something I might explore. >>
Well if PP says return the coin and get a refund I'd have no problem with that. They do need to ensure that you get your coin before any refund is given. My comment was about suing PP and not the seller if he shud end up keeping the coin and his money.
<< <i>I've been complaining about paypal for years and ardent ebay sellers on here just ignored it, unfortunately with their latest move of requiring it, paypal i.e. we are stuck with this crap as long as we sell there. From 1999 till 3 years ago I was selling $3k-6K a year there. Now its more hassle than its worth to me. >>
And, that's probably the area that I averaged as well. Regrettably, those of us in that range aren't really their "bread and butter" and it doesn't matter as much to them. 3% of $3000 is $90 (per year)...double that for $6000 and it still isn't much to them. Sure, it adds up when you count the 10s of thousands in that range, but, many of them are probably more problem than it is worth to paypal/ebay, so, we all get the shaft.
I still do paypal and ebay, just a lot less. Not worth it to me to complain about but rather I let my actions speak for me. I've been a "powerseller" before, a few times, but never cared enough to keep it going. Ebay/paypal are there when I need to buy or when I have something to sell that I no longer want anymore (or a dupe...or the occassional flip).
Well if PP says return the coin and get a refund I'd have no problem with that. They do need to ensure that you get your coin before any refund is given. My comment was about suing PP and not the seller if he shud end up keeping the coin and his money.
I disagree with you on the first part. If PP instructs the buyer to return the set and gives him back his purchase price, I have a problem with it. I'd lose $ on costs, and instead of the mint-sealed box I sent I'm left with an open box set. Plus the buyer could easily swap out coins, sending me problem ones that he already had.
This isn't as simple as returning a slabbed coin. The set lost value the moment the buyer opened it. I delivered what I promised. I made no guarantee as to the condition of the contents. The outside of the box was pristine, there was no reason to suspect that there was any open capsule and this wasn't a "rattler" - an issue that really is more concentrated with the buffalo gold sets.
"A. The buyer is obviously not trying to cheat anyone - he never stated that a single coin was missing. "
Mitch - I don't think that is obvious at all.......... he filed a claim , instead of communicating with the seller and letting him try to achieve satisfaction .
I would go so far as to say the buyer is indeed trying to cheat someone ! ..as I see you are inclined to somewhat agree to as well
Since it was unopened and you didn't know what was in it the buyer may have cherrypick a MS70 and replaced it with another and you will never know. You may be lucky to get your set back unlike the seller on another thread that is out his money and his silver after an 8 month bummer.
<< <i>delivery confirmation? should not an expensive package have used signature confirmation all the time?
seems like that is being penny wise, pound foolish. russ is right about the type of claim being filed saving your bacon.
i hope it works out for the best. good luck. >>
Registered mail requires a signature which can be obtained from the Post Office so, in essence, it is signature confirmation. >>
But if a PayPal doofus can't verify the signature from the comfort of his cubicle the service is no good. Surely you wouldn't expect them to EVER get off of their dead ass and go check would you? Actually if you go to the P O they mostly tell you that they really aren't supposed to do that. >>
I sent off some buffs. today from the main Post Office in Merrifield, VA. I spoke with a USPS manager about this very issue: The bottom line: For a fee (around $7, forgot the exact amount) the USPS will produce a copy of the entire signature and address info that the recipient signed to pick up the registered package along with the name of the person (in case you can't read the sig.). The easiest method, as has been said, is just to fork over the $2.20 for a signature confirmation. In the end though you'll still be O.K. with just Registered, but the Sig. Conf. is clearly the way to go no matter how you send the package (regis., priority, whatever).
<< <i>I have handled over 200 mint sealed platinum coins including 100+ sets and I do recall maybe 2 or 3 with loose capsules. Don't recall any with loose coins.
I had warned in a seperate thread about this problem with the Buffal coins/sets and I'd advise against buying any sealed sets and if you sell them be prepared for this problem. >>
You've had very good luck.
I've handled far less sets and singles with many loose coins from the Old Mint issue, to ASEs, to many Buffs. Though I've never had a loose plat.
One thing that I will add to my listings on Ebay when (if) I sell more sealed box coins/sets is something to the effect that there is a possibility that the coins may be loose....as this sometimes happens when The Mint ships....
I already clearly state that my refund policy is VOID if the box is opened and explain that some of the value of the item is tied to it's being in a sealed box. I also take my sealed boxes to work and x-ray them to be sure that at least the correct number of coins is in the box. Sometimes I can tell that the coins are loose and sometimes not.
<< <i>Well if PP says return the coin and get a refund I'd have no problem with that. They do need to ensure that you get your coin before any refund is given. My comment was about suing PP and not the seller if he shud end up keeping the coin and his money.
I disagree with you on the first part. If PP instructs the buyer to return the set and gives him back his purchase price, I have a problem with it. I'd lose $ on costs, and instead of the mint-sealed box I sent I'm left with an open box set. Plus the buyer could easily swap out coins, sending me problem ones that he already had.
This isn't as simple as returning a slabbed coin. The set lost value the moment the buyer opened it. I delivered what I promised. I made no guarantee as to the condition of the contents. The outside of the box was pristine, there was no reason to suspect that there was any open capsule and this wasn't a "rattler" - an issue that really is more concentrated with the buffalo gold sets. >>
I guess I shudda read my post closer. Of course any refund should include a provision for compensation for loss of extra value for an unopened box if it can be determined just what that premium is.
I sent paypal my response to the claim, doing my best to explain why the buyer does not have a legitimate complaint here. Assuming whoever reviews these claims knows nothing about coins, I included pictures of the sealed box I sent, as well as pictures of what the box would look like when open, to show the capsules and how they are set inside a display box, which itself is within another box.
A sealed box makes no representation as to the condition of the contents, only that the box contains the type of set it should. Here, the buyer purchased a received a sealed box 2008w platinum uncirculated set. He received the sealed box, chose to open it. He is not claiming the sealed box did not contain what it was supposed to--a 2008w platinum set-- but only that there was an open capsule. (which I don't believe-- open capsules were a problem with buffalo golds, but I've never seen an open capsule on a platinum). Anyway, even if there was an open capsule, it should not invalidate the sale.
I'm still awaiting the paypal decision. My paypal account shows a negative balance-- so it isn't clear that paypal has the ability to unilaterally remove funds from my checking account.
<< <i>so it isn't clear that paypal has the ability to unilaterally remove funds from my checking account. >>
They don't. Your PayPal balance will just stay negative unless YOU initiate a transfer. PayPal will bug you to do so, but they cannot reach in to your checking account.
A sealed box makes no representation as to the condition of the contents, only that the box contains the type of set it should. >>
NYC if I was playing devil's advocate I could say that a sealed box does have a representation as to condition of the contents as the mint gives one when you order it. Also when you purchase sealed boxes in normal stores like WalMart they give a representation as to the condition.
Unless you specifically state there is no representation as to condition then it is possible to assume some clueless Ebay purchaser would think the sealed box has no special meaning. He ordered it like he would purchase a box from Walmart.
Now this is not how I think it should be, I was only playing devil's advocate.
<< <i>I can speak from experience when I say that PayPal will turn you over to a collection agency if you don't. >>
Yup, same here. I received a refund from a guy through PayPal that ended up being a NSF. Since I had transferred the $$ to my bank account, that left my PayPal balance in the negative. They told me if I did not fund the negative balance within 30 day, they would turn me over to collection.
Sad thing was this was a dispute I had filed due to some pirated software. I returned it, as instructed by PayPal and the seller refunded my money with a different PayPal account. I had no way of telling that other than he did not refund the transaction, but rather sent me a $$ as the refund. I dropped the dispute and then got the NSF.
I could do nothing about it as I had closed the dispute.
This is the main reason I don't buy online for this issues. I've learned the hard way. I want sight on hand before I buy. I know its getting hard to do as more dealers close up shops and head to online sites oh well, they don't want my money then.
While PP can't go into your bank account some say that they can.....
IF the PP-account holder is using a PP-linked checking account as "auto-pay" for EBAY-fees, PP will PIGGYBACK any PP-account deficit on the day the EBAY fees are to be paid.
There are some lawsuits pending to try to stop this, but I dunno if they will work.
A sealed box makes no representation as to the condition of the contents, only that the box contains the type of set it should. >>
NYC if I was playing devil's advocate I could say that a sealed box does have a representation as to condition of the contents as the mint gives one when you order it. Also when you purchase sealed boxes in normal stores like WalMart they give a representation as to the condition.
Unless you specifically state there is no representation as to condition then it is possible to assume some clueless Ebay purchaser would think the sealed box has no special meaning. He ordered it like he would purchase a box from Walmart.
Now this is not how I think it should be, I was only playing devil's advocate.
>>
The sealed box representation shud be identical to that offered by the mint; uncirc coins in uncirc condition and in the quantity ordered. If there is a discrepancy then your beef is with the mint. If its outside the 30 day return window then I think yer SOL. Coins outside of their holders is not the fault of the seller IMO.
NYC if I was playing devil's advocate I could say that a sealed box does have a representation as to condition of the contents as the mint gives one when you order it. Also when you purchase sealed boxes in normal stores like WalMart they give a representation as to the condition.
Unless you specifically state there is no representation as to condition then it is possible to assume some clueless Ebay purchaser would think the sealed box has no special meaning. He ordered it like he would purchase a box from Walmart.
Now this is not how I think it should be, I was only playing devil's advocate.
I disagree. As long as it's clear the box was never open or tampered with, I think the only guarantee is that the box contains what the seller says it does.
A key distinction is that the Mint has had an opportunity to view the coins-- it handled them before packaging and shipment. A seller of a sealed box has never handled the coins and clearly is in no position to make any representation as to the condition of the contents. That's the very purpose of a sealed box. It guarantees the buyer that the coins haven't been cherrypicked. If the buyer wants a promise as to condition, he should only buy an open box or a graded set.
Comments
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>I would like to make a suggestion to all of you who deal with ebay and paypal. If you're going to sell and ship an item which costs $3000+ dollars, then I recommend that you ship it REGISTERED, RESTRICTED DELIVERY (This means that only the person whose name is on the package can accept and sign for it), and of course ELECTRONIC RETURN RECEIPT (Costs one dollar if you're using registered). That is the only way I ship when I sell an expensive coin. If a scammer wants to play games, I tell them that the US Postal Inspector will handle it and I will press criminal charges. >>
Non delivery is not the issue here so how would doing what you say have kept the coins in their capsules? Coins coming out of their capsules is not an uncommon thing so he may be telling the truth or he may be using it as an excuse to gain concessions from the seller. Its one guy's word against the other's.
In the dispute page on PayPal, phrase a simple question, such as, "I want to confirm that when you received my package, inside was a sealed box from the US Mint, and that outer box was in good condition." As long as you can get him to say yes, then you may have a better change fighting the SNAD, as he clearly has just stated that he received exactly what you said he would; your auction has no claims to the condition of the contents, just that the outer box is sealed.
2.) If you have your bank Account link to your PayPal Account, sweep the funds out of the Bank Account ASAP. However is you have overdraft, you are screwed.
Paypal can NO longer go into linked bank accounts. The only money they can freeze is money in your paypal account.
Steve
<< <i>2.) If you have your bank Account link to your PayPal Account, sweep the funds out of the Bank Account ASAP. However is you have overdraft, you are screwed.
Paypal can NO longer go into linked bank accounts. The only money they can freeze is money in your paypal account.
Steve >>
Could PayPal ever just take money out of a linked account? That seams crazy to me.
I think each person got 8.00
The lawyers did better.
Steve
Don't recall any with loose coins.
I had warned in a seperate thread about this problem with the Buffal coins/sets and I'd advise against buying any sealed sets and if you sell them be prepared for this problem.
roadrunner
<< <i>I didn't see this idea (I only scanned some of the posts), so try this:
In the dispute page on PayPal, phrase a simple question, such as, "I want to confirm that when you received my package, inside was a sealed box from the US Mint, and that outer box was in good condition." As long as you can get him to say yes, then you may have a better change fighting the SNAD, as he clearly has just stated that he received exactly what you said he would; your auction has no claims to the condition of the contents, just that the outer box is sealed. >>
How can a seller make any claim/warranty as to the condition of contents that he can't see? He can only rely on the mint to have done things correctly. Even a dealer requires you to sign a waiver/disclaimer saying they aren't reponsible for defects in a car since they didn't make the vehicle.
<< <i>
<< <i>I didn't see this idea (I only scanned some of the posts), so try this:
In the dispute page on PayPal, phrase a simple question, such as, "I want to confirm that when you received my package, inside was a sealed box from the US Mint, and that outer box was in good condition." As long as you can get him to say yes, then you may have a better change fighting the SNAD, as he clearly has just stated that he received exactly what you said he would; your auction has no claims to the condition of the contents, just that the outer box is sealed. >>
How can a seller make any claim/warranty as to the condition of contents that he can't see? He can only rely on the mint to have done things correctly? Even a dealer requires you to sign a waiver/disclaimer saying they aren't reponsible for defects in a car since they didn't make the vehicle. >>
Exactly - you were selling a Mint sealed box containing four coins. The buyer received a Mint-sealed box containing four coins. Should be the end of the discussion. Now good luck getting someone at PayPal to understand and agree with this concept.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>It was this kind of stuff turned me off to ebay. Just not worth the time and aggravation. Eventually someone will stiff you.
roadrunner >>
I agree! But it was PayPal who tried to scam me by freezing my account.
I threatened to write to the AG's offices of all 50 states with my claim against them.
They released my funds and I completely stopped dealing with both of those organizations.
<< <i>Maybe it's just my 12 years on ebay always trying to keep the buyers happy. >>
The buyer filed a SNAD claim right out of the gate without even having the courtesy to contact the seller. He deserves no consideration.
Russ, NCNE
All buyers have good feedback now, so feedback can only be used to evaluate sellers.
The buyer filed a SNAD claim right out of the gate without even having the courtesy to contact the seller. He deserves no consideration."
This is certainly a fair point. But, my original comments were simply based upon my instincts having been around ebay for 12 years. My thoughts were:
1. Buyer is not a seasoned platinum buyer by any means (heck, he paid a huge premium for a sealed box and then opened it)
2. Buyer truly was surprised and disappointed by what he found when he opened the box (he did not claim coins were missing - the true sign of a "cheater").
3. Buyer thought his only immediate protection was to "dipute" the charge ASAP.
NOW... here's what separates the "honest" from the "scammers"...
Once contact is made with the buyer, if he is willing to work to easily resolve the problem (e.g. my suggestion of fresh clean replacement coins for the one or two "problem" capsules) or if he takes an unreasonable position such as "I want my money back and I don't want to deal with you anymore or listen to anything you say". This is what would tell me whether I am dealing with an honest newbie or not. But, it is generally better to not rush to judgment as what may appear us here on the forum as sinister behavior is often times just honest inexperienced behavior. Perhaps we have a "bad guy" here - but, until he reacts to a fair suggestion to resolve the issue, my thinking would be to not immediately come to that conclusion.
Wondercoin
To clarify a few things:
1. The buyer has never contacted me.
Immediately after learning of the complaint from paypal, I called them to determine the reason for the dispute. When they explained the capsule issue I emailed the buyer to try to resolve the claim amicably. I gave him my work number and asked him to call. To this point, no response.
2. I'm not 100% confident in paypal's description of the issue.
The problem as described by paypal was confusing; they said one coin was out of the capsule, and that another was missing the capsule top. Now, in years of buying these sets, I've never encountered either type of problem. The buffalo gold sets have had a running problem with loose capsules; but it's not a common issue with platinums. I've never heard of a capsule that was just "missing" a top-- I suspect that wasn't the case, but was only the buyer's attempt to describe that the capsule was open. No way of knowing since the buyer hasn't contacted me.
3. Shipping.
A few people commented on the manner of shipping. The item was received, so it's not really an issue here, but I sent it by registered mail, with delivery confirmation. The delivery confirmation form I used was green and was an extra 65 cents, so I don't think that it was "signature confirmation." However, since I believe the registered mail service requires a signature and identification, I'm not sure that the signature confirmation would be required. In any event, if this is not considered an acceptable way to ship a high dollar item, I would appreciate knowing what the best practice is.
4. I'm not sure this was a "scam"
I hesistate to say that the buyer is trying to pull a "scam", but the fact is that I sold a sealed box set, promptly delivered a sealed box set, and the buyer opened it. The complaint is NOT that I sent a different set than promised, but that a capsule in that box was open. Even if true, it's just not something that a seller of a sealed box could control, nor does it justify an attempt by the buyer to rescind the transaction. If it was a "scam", the buyer could have claimed he didn't receive the coins, instead of complaining about the capsule. But I do think that the fact that the buyer has never once emailed me does not reflect favorably on him. Now that the set is open, it has lost some market value. On top of that, there's nothing to prevent the buyer from simply swapping out different coins.
5. A mistake I made.
One thing that I identify as a mistake on my part was giving the buyer positive feedback before the transaction was over. I felt like it was a gesture of good faith on my part; he paid promptly and I left feedback to indicate as much. Under the circumstances, I feel very unhappy that I left this person positive feedback; I do not believe that his behavior in this case warrants it.
Thanks again for all the comments. If I hear from the buyer, I will be sure to say so on this thread. I'm putting together materials to submit to Payal, and will share the outcome here. As a buyer, I appreciate the protection afforded by paypal, but the fact is that the whole system is vulnerable to people who are unreasonable or have bad intentions and despite our best efforts, it can be very difficult to avoid problems.
<< <i>The item was received, so it's not really an issue here, but I sent it by registered mail, with delivery confirmation. The delivery confirmation form I used was green and was an extra 65 cents, so I don't think that it was "signature confirmation." However, since I believe the registered mail service requires a signature and identification, I'm not sure that the signature confirmation would be required. In any event, if this is not considered an acceptable way to ship a high dollar item, I would appreciate knowing what the best practice is. >>
FYI:
Delivery Confirmation is included in the purchase of Registered Mail and shows as such on-line. Though a signature is required for a Registered package, on-line Signature Confirmation is not part of the deal and must be purchased separately. This is a must for puchases paid with PayPal.
<< <i>However, since I believe the registered mail service requires a signature and identification, I'm not sure that the signature confirmation would be required. >>
Again, for an INR or unauthorized use claim, signature confirmation is required under the PayPal protection policy.
Russ, NCNE
Your biggest loss is that you no longer have a "sealed" box to sell and have lost any possibility of attaining that specific profit.
Think about this: The scenario could conceivably get applied to Original Bank Wrapped rolls of coins as far as paypal and ebay are concerned. I certainly don't have any answers or "sure thing" responses other than "seller's beware".
The name is LEE!
Delivery Confirmation is included in the purchase of Registered Mail and shows as such on-line. Though a signature is required for a Registered package, on-line Signature Confirmation is not part of the deal and must be purchased separately. This is a must for puchases paid with PayPal.
Again, for an INR or unauthorized use claim, signature confirmation is required under the PayPal protection policy.
Good to know -- I thought registered covered it, but I guess that's not the case. I'll be sure to use signature confirmation next time. Thanks!
Well, in this case, the buyer made a complaint about the capsule; he is not claiming that the coins were not received, so his own complaint would defeat any claim that the set was not received.
In a different case, a court would need to resolve issues of fact. I'm not sure how binding a determination by paypal or ebay would be. Filing a claim in court directly against a party in an ebay transaction is possible, but the logistics and cost of suing someone who is in a different state, or enforcing a judgment should you win, probably keep most cases from ever reaching court. That said, I think I might look into what claims I can file against paypal. I suspect that whatever electronic agreement we enter into with paypal is designed to defeat a claim against them, but it's something I might explore.
I never had any problem by requiring payment in check or money order form, because I waited for the funds to become secured. The only buyer I ever had a problem with was a guy who decided to change the terms of my auction after the fact. paypal and ebay deserve to be out of business.
Did I mention that a shlock operation like ebay & paypal deserve to be out of business?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>For the rest of the world, Registered Mail works just fine without signature confirmation. So what if it isn't tracked until it is signed for on the receiving end? ebay and paypal are injecting problems into the equation for anyone who wants to sell, and it will hurt them in the end. And they deserve to be out of business. >>
I don't know if they deserve to be out of business yet, maybe, but they definitely deserve to get a kick in the a--ss.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
That's certainly true. Like coolest, I tried the BST forum for a set that I priced based on the most recent ebay sales, adjusted downwards for ebay and paypal fees, and there wasn't any interest.
<< <i>If PP/eBay was to somehow rule against you, would legal action be appropriate? Even tho it does not appear to be an issue, they could use your failure to use sig conf as a technicality by which to rule in favor of the buyer. How can they legally enforce some sort of arbitrary rule of theirs which may be contrary to law or UCC?
Well, in this case, the buyer made a complaint about the capsule; he is not claiming that the coins were not received, so his own complaint would defeat any claim that the set was not received.
In a different case, a court would need to resolve issues of fact. I'm not sure how binding a determination by paypal or ebay would be. Filing a claim in court directly against a party in an ebay transaction is possible, but the logistics and cost of suing someone who is in a different state, or enforcing a judgment should you win, probably keep most cases from ever reaching court. That said, I think I might look into what claims I can file against paypal. I suspect that whatever electronic agreement we enter into with paypal is designed to defeat a claim against them, but it's something I might explore. >>
Well if PP says return the coin and get a refund I'd have no problem with that. They do need to ensure that you get your coin before any refund is given. My comment was about suing PP and not the seller if he shud end up keeping the coin and his money.
<< <i>I've been complaining about paypal for years and ardent ebay sellers on here just ignored it, unfortunately with their latest move of requiring it, paypal i.e. we are stuck with this crap as long as we sell there. From 1999 till 3 years ago I was selling $3k-6K a year there. Now its more hassle than its worth to me. >>
And, that's probably the area that I averaged as well. Regrettably, those of us in that range aren't really their "bread and butter" and it doesn't matter as much to them.
3% of $3000 is $90 (per year)...double that for $6000 and it still isn't much to them. Sure, it adds up when you count the 10s of thousands in that range, but, many of them are probably more problem than it is worth to paypal/ebay, so, we all get the shaft.
I still do paypal and ebay, just a lot less. Not worth it to me to complain about but rather I let my actions speak for me. I've been a "powerseller" before, a few times, but never cared enough to keep it going. Ebay/paypal are there when I need to buy or when I have something to sell that I no longer want anymore (or a dupe...or the occassional flip).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I disagree with you on the first part. If PP instructs the buyer to return the set and gives him back his purchase price, I have a problem with it. I'd lose $ on costs, and instead of the mint-sealed box I sent I'm left with an open box set. Plus the buyer could easily swap out coins, sending me problem ones that he already had.
This isn't as simple as returning a slabbed coin. The set lost value the moment the buyer opened it. I delivered what I promised. I made no guarantee as to the condition of the contents. The outside of the box was pristine, there was no reason to suspect that there was any open capsule and this wasn't a "rattler" - an issue that really is more concentrated with the buffalo gold sets.
Mitch - I don't think that is obvious at all.......... he filed a claim , instead of communicating with the seller and letting him try to achieve satisfaction .
I would go so far as to say the buyer is indeed trying to cheat someone ! ..as I see you are inclined to somewhat agree to as well
Wondercoin
Lafayette Grading Set
The only thing the buyer can do is leave positive feedback, anymore than that and he is out of line.
He might plead his case to the seller and hope for some grace but other than that he is wrong.
Joe
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>delivery confirmation? should not an expensive package have used
signature confirmation all the time?
seems like that is being penny wise, pound foolish. russ is right about
the type of claim being filed saving your bacon.
i hope it works out for the best. good luck. >>
Registered mail requires a signature which can be obtained from the Post Office so, in essence, it is signature confirmation. >>
But if a PayPal doofus can't verify the signature from the comfort of his cubicle the service is no good. Surely you wouldn't expect them to EVER get off of their dead ass and go check would you? Actually if you go to the P O they mostly tell you that they really aren't supposed to do that. >>
I sent off some buffs. today from the main Post Office in Merrifield, VA. I spoke with a USPS manager about this very issue: The bottom line: For a fee (around $7, forgot the exact amount) the USPS will produce a copy of the entire signature and address info that the recipient signed to pick up the registered package along with the name of the person (in case you can't read the sig.). The easiest method, as has been said, is just to fork over the $2.20 for a signature confirmation. In the end though you'll still be O.K. with just Registered, but the Sig. Conf. is clearly the way to go no matter how you send the package (regis., priority, whatever).
<< <i>I have handled over 200 mint sealed platinum coins including 100+ sets and I do recall maybe 2 or 3 with loose capsules.
Don't recall any with loose coins.
I had warned in a seperate thread about this problem with the Buffal coins/sets and I'd advise against buying any sealed sets and if you sell them be prepared for this problem. >>
You've had very good luck.
I've handled far less sets and singles with many loose coins from the Old Mint issue, to ASEs, to many Buffs. Though I've never had a loose plat.
One thing that I will add to my listings on Ebay when (if) I sell more sealed box coins/sets is something to the effect that there is a possibility that the coins may be loose....as this sometimes happens when The Mint ships....
I already clearly state that my refund policy is VOID if the box is opened and explain that some of the value of the item is tied to it's being in a sealed box. I also take my sealed boxes to work and x-ray them to be sure that at least the correct number of coins is in the box. Sometimes I can tell that the coins are loose and sometimes not.
<< <i>Well if PP says return the coin and get a refund I'd have no problem with that. They do need to ensure that you get your coin before any refund is given. My comment was about suing PP and not the seller if he shud end up keeping the coin and his money.
I disagree with you on the first part. If PP instructs the buyer to return the set and gives him back his purchase price, I have a problem with it. I'd lose $ on costs, and instead of the mint-sealed box I sent I'm left with an open box set. Plus the buyer could easily swap out coins, sending me problem ones that he already had.
This isn't as simple as returning a slabbed coin. The set lost value the moment the buyer opened it. I delivered what I promised. I made no guarantee as to the condition of the contents. The outside of the box was pristine, there was no reason to suspect that there was any open capsule and this wasn't a "rattler" - an issue that really is more concentrated with the buffalo gold sets. >>
I guess I shudda read my post closer. Of course any refund should include a provision for compensation for loss of extra value for an unopened box if it can be determined just what that premium is.
The buyer still has never contacted me.
I sent paypal my response to the claim, doing my best to explain why the buyer does not have a legitimate complaint here. Assuming whoever reviews these claims knows nothing about coins, I included pictures of the sealed box I sent, as well as pictures of what the box would look like when open, to show the capsules and how they are set inside a display box, which itself is within another box.
A sealed box makes no representation as to the condition of the contents, only that the box contains the type of set it should. Here, the buyer purchased a received a sealed box 2008w platinum uncirculated set. He received the sealed box, chose to open it. He is not claiming the sealed box did not contain what it was supposed to--a 2008w platinum set-- but only that there was an open capsule. (which I don't believe-- open capsules were a problem with buffalo golds, but I've never seen an open capsule on a platinum). Anyway, even if there was an open capsule, it should not invalidate the sale.
I'm still awaiting the paypal decision. My paypal account shows a negative balance-- so it isn't clear that paypal has the ability to unilaterally remove funds from my checking account.
<< <i>so it isn't clear that paypal has the ability to unilaterally remove funds from my checking account. >>
They don't. Your PayPal balance will just stay negative unless YOU initiate a transfer. PayPal will bug you to do so, but they cannot reach in to your checking account.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>whats the latest?
A sealed box makes no representation as to the condition of the contents, only that the box contains the type of set it should. >>
NYC if I was playing devil's advocate I could say that a sealed box does have a representation as to condition of the contents as the mint gives one when you order it. Also when you purchase sealed boxes in normal stores like WalMart they give a representation as to the condition.
Unless you specifically state there is no representation as to condition then it is possible to assume some clueless Ebay purchaser would think the sealed box has no special meaning. He ordered it like he would purchase a box from Walmart.
Now this is not how I think it should be, I was only playing devil's advocate.
<< <i>I can speak from experience when I say that PayPal will turn you over to a collection agency if you don't. >>
Yup, same here. I received a refund from a guy through PayPal that ended up being a NSF. Since I had transferred the $$ to my bank account, that left my PayPal balance in the negative. They told me if I did not fund the negative balance within 30 day, they would turn me over to collection.
Sad thing was this was a dispute I had filed due to some pirated software. I returned it, as instructed by PayPal and the seller refunded my money with a different PayPal account. I had no way of telling that other than he did not refund the transaction, but rather sent me a $$ as the refund. I dropped the dispute and then got the NSF.
I could do nothing about it as I had closed the dispute.
IF the PP-account holder is using a PP-linked checking account as "auto-pay" for
EBAY-fees, PP will PIGGYBACK any PP-account deficit on the day the EBAY fees
are to be paid.
There are some lawsuits pending to try to stop this, but I dunno if they will work.
Steve
My 08 unc plats were open and floating, jfyi
<< <i>
<< <i>whats the latest?
A sealed box makes no representation as to the condition of the contents, only that the box contains the type of set it should. >>
NYC if I was playing devil's advocate I could say that a sealed box does have a representation as to condition of the contents as the mint gives one when you order it. Also when you purchase sealed boxes in normal stores like WalMart they give a representation as to the condition.
Unless you specifically state there is no representation as to condition then it is possible to assume some clueless Ebay purchaser would think the sealed box has no special meaning. He ordered it like he would purchase a box from Walmart.
Now this is not how I think it should be, I was only playing devil's advocate.
The sealed box representation shud be identical to that offered by the mint; uncirc coins in uncirc condition and in the quantity ordered. If there is a discrepancy then your beef is with the mint. If its outside the 30 day return window then I think yer SOL. Coins outside of their holders is not the fault of the seller IMO.
Unless you specifically state there is no representation as to condition then it is possible to assume some clueless Ebay purchaser would think the sealed box has no special meaning. He ordered it like he would purchase a box from Walmart.
Now this is not how I think it should be, I was only playing devil's advocate.
I disagree. As long as it's clear the box was never open or tampered with, I think the only guarantee is that the box contains what the seller says it does.
A key distinction is that the Mint has had an opportunity to view the coins-- it handled them before packaging and shipment. A seller of a sealed box has never handled the coins and clearly is in no position to make any representation as to the condition of the contents. That's the very purpose of a sealed box. It guarantees the buyer that the coins haven't been cherrypicked. If the buyer wants a promise as to condition, he should only buy an open box or a graded set.