FINAL UPDATE: The buyer of my set filed a dispute with Paypal-- Received the return today

nycounsel · February 17, 2009 7:10AM

I sold a mint-sealed 4 coin platinum uncirculated set for a high bid of $3849. The buyer paid using paypal.

I sent the buyer several emails to verify shipping address, but he never responded.

I was concerned about this and the possibility of fraud. My instincts told me something wasn't right about this one.

However, since the buyer had good feedback, and I didn't want the buyer to complain that he paid and I was delaying in sending the set, I sent the set to the confirmed address provided by paypal, using registered insured mail with delivery confirmation.

The set went out on Friday. Today, paypal notifies me that the buyer:

"recently opened a dispute against this transaction indicating that the merchandise was significantly not as described.

The buyer's claim is in regard to merchandise that either was never received or did not match your original description."

This was a sealed box, so I'm not sure how it could not match the description.

I called Paypal, and was told the buyer claimed that one capsule was open and that another was missing the top.

I've dealt with a lot of platinum sets and never heard of an open capsule or a missing piece of a capsule. (I am aware of the open capsule problem with the buffalo gold coins). Anyway, it seems unlikely to me. However, even if that were the case, I'd have no way of knowing it since the box was in unopen, sealed condition. I also don't understand why the buyer never contacted me.

I disputed the claim with paypal, but the whole scenario stinks.

The ebay transaction number is: 220354960996 ebay listing

ozzyfan269 · February 17, 2009 7:13AM

I have an auction currently for a mint sealed box of AGEs that I am considering pulling. I think I will just pull that one and send it in to get graded. Then I can just list the individual coins. Hopefully I will get some 70s!

nycounsel · February 17, 2009 7:15AM

the buyer's id is: verta5953

segoja · February 17, 2009 7:32AM

Good Luck with that!!!

I'm not sure there is a good defense to this when it comes to Paypal.

Keep us posted, and thanks for posting the buyer's ID....BLOCKED

TomB · February 17, 2009 7:35AM

I'm quite surprised that a package sent via Registered Mail on Friday was delivered already. Have you checked online at the USPS site to be certain of this?

GAT · February 17, 2009 7:40AM

Empty your Paypal account if you already haven't done so. I went through a dispute and it seems Paypal always sides with the buyer 99% of the time. It's always scared me to sell sell unopened boxes as a buyer can claim anything and a seller has no defense to fraud.

ozzyfan269 · February 17, 2009 7:41AM

That's it, I'm pulling the sealed boxes I have up for sale and breaking them up.

YaHa · February 17, 2009 7:41AM

<< the buyer's id is: verta5953 >>

His name is Wallace Janssen according to Toolhaus.org

coindeuce · February 17, 2009 7:42AM

As stated by TomB, you need to check delivery status on the package. Seems highly improbable that it could have been delivered already. Appears to have all the earmarks of a scam. If it hasn't been conclusively delivered, you need to file the necessary forms to recall the package before it is physically delivered. This you will need to do in person at a branch, preferably with the help of the Postmaster or the Postmaster's assistant.

AUandAG · February 17, 2009 7:43AM

I do believe that this will not turn out to your satisfaction. You may end up with the set,
less missing parts/coins, back. You will then be dealing with the mint and the time rolls
on so that may not work either.
Good luck and hope it does turn out for the good.

Perhaps we need to have them x-rayed prior to shipping or don't sell mint sealed boxes.

bob

nycounsel · February 17, 2009 7:44AM

I'm quite surprised that a package sent via Registered Mail on Friday was delivered already. Have you checked online at the USPS site to be certain of this?

I was shocked by that as well, especially since I sent it from New York at 4:59pm on Friday, and Monday was a holiday.

I thought that might be the perfect defense-- if he jumped the gun and claimed not as described when it hadn't been delivered yet.

But I gave the tracking info to paypal, and they said it was delivered to Willmar, MN this morning -- a fact I just confirmed.

Delivery Confirmation #: 0308 2690 0000 6133 6551

USPS Track & Confirm

Manorcourtman · February 17, 2009 7:46AM

Good luck. I had an unopened box of 1/4 Plat proofs up on eBay two months ago and pulled it for fear of this very senario. How could I prove what was in the box when even I hadn't opened it? It was worth about 3k and I was not going to eat that kind of money if a scammer targeted me. Keep us updated. It's a tough one.

ozzyfan269 · February 17, 2009 7:47AM

I guess its time to stop selling mint sealed boxes on eBay.

GAT · February 17, 2009 7:48AM

I returned some items to the Mint in Memphis in Dec from San Diego via registered mail and they arrived in two days. It was obvious that the USPS flew them which may be a new policy. Maybe some USPS employee can reflect on this.

Russ · February 17, 2009 7:48AM

Be glad this buyer didn't file an item not received or unauthorized use CC chargeback. Over $250 requires the recipient name to appear in online tracking in order to win either of those two types of claims.

Russ, NCNE

UtahCoin · February 17, 2009 7:48AM

<< the buyer's id is: verta5953 >>

Blocked!

nycounsel · February 17, 2009 7:49AM

<< the buyer's id is: verta5953 >>

You are correct about his name.

Truth be told, as disgusted as I am about this, his feedback to this point is unblemished.

I hesitate to call him a liar. He paid immediately.

But he has never once emailed me.

His claim is supposedly that a capsule was open. But even if that were the case, it's in a sealed box.

I can't see how that reflects on me- I couldn't know that when the box was sealed.

I think that a buyer of a sealed box assumes a risk of that kind of thing happening.

If paypal says he should return the set, he can easily swap it out for a damaged set and I will have no way of verifying.

Plus since he opened the box, it obviously lowers the value.

mrearlygold · February 17, 2009 7:50AM

Oh boy, the wonders of retail .

Hope it works out for you.

JupitarCoins · February 17, 2009 7:51AM

<< That's it, I'm pulling the sealed boxes I have up for sale and breaking them up. >>

I dont see any sealed boxes you have up for sale on ebay.

Edited to say: I see you had one that you pulled earlier today.

GrumpyEd · February 17, 2009 7:54AM

Seems too fast for a registered mail to get there. Sent on Fri, Mon was a holiday. Maybe the buyer bought more than one set and gave FB for a different set?

nycounsel · February 17, 2009 7:55AM

My other recent sale on ebay was for an open box uncirculated 4 coin gold buffalo set. THAT buyer left positive feedback, but wrote that 2 coins were in open capsules and came out in shipping. I'm pretty sure that buyer was being accurate, since no reason to make it up. I know that everything was in place when I sent that box. But with that and now this, I'm feeling concerned about selling on ebay at the moment. I'm an upstanding guy, and it's disheartening to have this kind of thing happen.

ziggy29 · February 17, 2009 7:57AM

<< Seems too fast for a registered mail to get there. Sent on Fri, Mon was a holiday. Maybe the buyer bought more than one set and gave FB for a different set? >>

The OP said the tracking information indicates the package was in fact delivered today. Still seems very odd for registered to be that fast.

nycounsel · February 17, 2009 7:58AM

Seems too fast for a registered mail to get there. Sent on Fri, Mon was a holiday. Maybe the buyer bought more than one set and gave FB for a different set?

I thought the same and checked the tracking info -- it was delivered this morning.

Russ · February 17, 2009 7:58AM

Personally, I think it's pretty damned petty of a buyer to file a SNAD claim with PayPal because of a problem with a friggin' plastic capsule.

Russ, NCNE

fc · February 17, 2009 8:01AM

delivery confirmation? should not an expensive package have used
signature confirmation all the time?

seems like that is being penny wise, pound foolish. russ is right about
the type of claim being filed saving your bacon.

i hope it works out for the best. good luck.

HalfStrike · February 17, 2009 8:03AM

NYC I feel bad for you.......

This is why I think anyone that sells sealed boxes deserves a Purple Heart, you are the bravest people on Ebay.

lope208 · February 17, 2009 8:04AM

After all the packages I've received from the Mint in the last year with coins rolling around in the box
and capsules opened and floating all over the place...anything's possible. The guy still stinks for not
contacting you first though.

stev32k · February 17, 2009 8:07AM

I have mint sealed boxes of 10th ann. plats, and 20th ann. SAEs and have been considering selling them unopened, but after reading this I'm not so sure. Getting them slabbed is kinda of a gamble because the 69's just barely get more of a premium than the raw coins. However, selling them unopened also has some risk as the OP has shown. So maybe I'll just sit on them for a few years and see what happens.

JedPlanchet · February 17, 2009 8:12AM

<< I have mint sealed boxes of 10th ann. plats, and 20th ann. SAEs and have been considering selling them unopened, but after reading this I'm not so sure. Getting them slabbed is kinda of a gamble because the 69's just barely get more of a premium than the raw coins. However, selling them unopened also has some risk as the OP has shown. So maybe I'll just sit on them for a few years and see what happens. >>

The 20th anniversary SAE I received from the mint had a chipped capsule in it ... fortunately the coin was OK, since it was sold out by the time I received it.

segoja · February 17, 2009 8:12AM

I've had capsules open. The issue for me is he baough a sealed box, and now it's not sealed.

Not sure about how much less it's worth.

Call the guy, so waht the deal is.

In any case, get back what you can fast.

As far as your paypal account, my guess is they've already frozen the amount in question.

I wish you luck...

zeebob · February 17, 2009 8:19AM

verta5953 Blocked.

Looks like the guy has been bidding on a fair bit of bullion recently. Could be a thief. I'm thinking I should stop selling on eBay...

Coll3ctor · February 17, 2009 8:25AM

<< His name is Wallace Janssen according to Toolhaus.org >>

Where is the link to find sellers names ?

291fifth · February 17, 2009 8:27AM

<< I'm quite surprised that a package sent via Registered Mail on Friday was delivered already. Have you checked online at the USPS site to be certain of this?

I was shocked by that as well, especially since I sent it from New York at 4:59pm on Friday, and Monday was a holiday.

I thought that might be the perfect defense-- if he jumped the gun and claimed not as described when it hadn't been delivered yet.

But I gave the tracking info to paypal, and they said it was delivered to Willmar, MN this morning -- a fact I just confirmed.

Delivery Confirmation #: 0308 2690 0000 6133 6551

USPS Track & Confirm >>

You needed to use Signature Confirmation, not Delivery Confirmation on a package of that value. This could cause you trouble with PayPal down the road. The fact that he filed a claim before he returned the coins is not a good sign. Watch out, which I am sure you are.

derryb · February 17, 2009 8:51AM

If he was scamming you he woulda said there were no coins. The fact that his complaint is with the capsules means that you will at least get your coins back. I would never buy a sealed set from anyone but the mint. With the mint you've got 7 day return. My last 4 coin buffalo set had one coin out of the capsule and the capsule was closed and in place in the holder. Only way that coulda happened would be for someone at the mint to have put it in there like that. Coin was just floating in the box. Put the old loupe on it and couldn't find a scratch on it. All four coins came back MS70. Go figure.

grote15 · February 17, 2009 9:01AM

I'm sorry to hear this...as stated above, Paypal will always side with the buyer and will immediately freeze your account for those funds as soon as his complaint is filed. I believe he has a certain time frame now in which to return the item to you and he must prove signature confirmation due to the amount..I know you said you thought his FB was good, but he only has about 50 transactions, which is very minimal..this is the exact reason why I never used to accept paypal for high-dollar auctions...check or MO only...of course, now sellers have no choice...However, if you use BIN-Best Offer you can at least choose who you're dealing with...personally for something like this I'd only accept an offer from a buyer with at least 500 positive feedbacks...you can never be too careful...the sellers have no power anymore, as many buyers are dishonest...it all adds up to some shady situations...I hope you at least get your set back intact...good luck.

clackamas · February 17, 2009 9:04AM

That blows, I suggest calling the guy, explaining that that sometimes happens with mint stuff. Since they are platinum the coins are probably fine - right? buyer? BTW -blocked

OPA · February 17, 2009 9:13AM

I've had problems with loose capsules and loose coins shipped from the Mint ... Gold, Silver & yes Platinum ... It seemed to be a universal problem especially with the 20th ASE & AGE Sets. BTW ... the ars hole is blocked...he should have contacted you first.

08HALA20 · February 17, 2009 9:17AM

I blocked him too, he bought a "sealed" box and received a "sealed" box.

No need for him to contact anyone just leave positive feedback.

Joe

nycounsel · February 17, 2009 9:43AM

delivery confirmation? should not an expensive package have used
signature confirmation all the time?

seems like that is being penny wise, pound foolish. russ is right about
the type of claim being filed saving your bacon.

i hope it works out for the best. good luck.

FC, it was sent registered insured with signature/delivery confirmation. I mistakenly wrote delivery confirmation.

Anyway, the way it was sent was about as secure as it gets.

YaHa · February 17, 2009 9:50AM

<< Personally, I think it's pretty damned petty of a buyer to file a SNAD claim with PayPal because of a problem with a friggin' plastic capsule.

Russ, NCNE >>

Russ I agree..

What was this guy buying the plastic for recycling or maybe he was going to use the capsules for the new Obama coins.

nycounsel · February 17, 2009 9:51AM

If he was scamming you he woulda said there were no coins. The fact that his complaint is with the capsules means that you will at least get your coins back. I would never buy a sealed set from anyone but the mint.

I kind of agree your assessment. It seems like if he was really trying to steal, he would claim he received an empty box or something.

But honestly, I sold him a sealed box - and that was from the Fulfillment Center, where they sealed boxes correctly.

If you open a sealed box, and find that a capsule is open or something, that's an issue with the Mint, not the seller. Absent hearing the coins rattle in the box, which I assure you was not the case here, there would be no way for a seller to know what the condition is of what's inside. Part of the reason people buy a sealed box is to assure it hasn't been cherry-picked; there's an assumption of risk that the coins are dogs.

So as I see it, even if the buyer isn't pulling a scam and is describing the capsule issue accurately (I've never seen this happen with a platinum set), he is still not being fair.

I especially don't like that even to this point he has made no attempt to contact me.

Most likely scenario here in my opinion is that he already had a set he was unhappy with, and figured this would give him a chance to swap it out.

A mistake I made: I left the buyer positive feedback before he left me feedback; he paid for the coin promptly at auction close and I left positive feedback saying as much. This is the thanks you get.

jmski52 · February 17, 2009 10:02AM

I feel bad for you. Are you sending him messages through ebay's system? Have you looked up any phone number that he might have on his ebay contact information? I'd call him.

I hope that it works out. This is just the kind of thing that will put the final nail in the coffin for ebay/paypal. What a crock of crap.

nycounsel · February 17, 2009 10:09AM

I feel bad for you. Are you sending him messages through ebay's system? Have you looked up any phone number that he might have on his ebay contact information? I'd call him.

I hope that it works out. This is just the kind of thing that will put the final nail in the coffin for ebay/paypal. What a crock of crap.

Thanks. I've been emailing directly to his email address on yahoo, which was provided by paypal when he paid.

I agree. This kind of thing is basically impossible to prevent, and it's frustrating from a seller perspective to really try to do everything right and still get screwed. I asked Paypal if they take my transaction history with them and ebay into account in these situations and they said they do not. So basically, I'm at the mercy of some random paypal employee's ability to understand the specifics of a sealed box transaction based on what was entered into a text box of 500 characters. I'm not a professional seller; have to wonder how those who are manage to do business under these conditions.

Bochiman · February 17, 2009 10:27AM

Sorry to hear you are going through this for something that is obviously not your fault.
I think a lesson to be learned, by all, including myself, is that if you sell unopened mint boxes, you are at a buyer's whim when it comes to how things are in the box.
I have some still sealed boxes and if I decide to sell them, while it may not perfectly protect me, I will be adding "contents are exactly as they were when the USMint packed them as the item has never been opened....if things are in their perfect spot, great. If things are jostled around because the USMint didn't pack them correctly, then we should all call the USMint and let them know they need better QA"

timber100 · February 17, 2009 10:39AM

Reading these tales of Ebay ripoffs is getting depressing. It is difficult for a honest seller to prove that he was correct in his dealings. Im afraid with the economy the way it is, we will only be seeing more criminal acts on ebay. Best of luck and I'm hoping things turn out well for you. Buyer blocked!

Russ · February 17, 2009 10:43AM

<< FC, it was sent registered insured with signature/delivery confirmation. I mistakenly wrote delivery confirmation. >>

The number you provided was delivery confirmation. Signature confirmation is required under the PayPal seller protection policy, even if you ship Registered Mail.

Russ, NCNE

halfhunter · February 17, 2009 10:45AM

Doesn't Registered always have to be signed for by the recipient?
Even non-registered insured has to be signed for doesn't it?

BTW, all of my 20th Anniv. ASE sets had capsules not in the slots, but no out-of-capsule coins.

Regards,

John

Russ · February 17, 2009 10:49AM

<< Doesn't Registered always have to be signed for by the recipient?
Even non-registered insured has to be signed for doesn't it? >>

The PayPal seller protection policy requires that the recipient's name appear in the online tracking for values of $250 and higher. Neither insurance or Registered accomplishes that.

Russ, NCNE

PawPaul · February 17, 2009 10:54AM

"I was shocked by that as well, especially since I sent it from New York at 4:59pm on Friday, and Monday was a holiday. "

no - no way ; I don't care what tracking info sez - Registered Mail can not move that fast

all but impossible :

it would not have gotten into the system until Sat. and with no mail service Monday -

impossible to have him get it Tuesday morning........no how -no way

Something is afoul here

the only scenario is if you lived within 50 miles of the buyer and even then he would have had to be at the post office when they opened and he'd have to request a special favor to have someone look in the vault ......

intence · February 17, 2009 11:01AM

ouch hope for the best

YaHa · February 17, 2009 11:05AM

<< Sorry to hear you are going through this for something that is obviously not your fault.
I think a lesson to be learned, by all, (Including myself).

By Golly sweet tootsie rolls, the man isn't perfect..

Bochiman

FINAL UPDATE: The buyer of my set filed a dispute with Paypal-- Received the return today

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