2008 W Proof Platinum 4 coin sets selling at $2,150? UPDATE: More negs on eBay.

GAT · December 20, 2008 12:11PM

Board member and ex ICG grader Kiefer Numismatics has been listing and selling 4 coin 2008 W Platinum proof sets at only $2,150 which is below the Mint's issue price and fair market value. Considering he's losing a lot of money after eBay/Paypal fees it doesn't make sense. Has his account been hijacked?

Latest sold set.

OPA · December 20, 2008 12:31PM

Probably purchased via the US Mint Bulk program, and I doubt if he took a loss. If so, maybe he needs a tax loss.

FatMan · December 20, 2008 12:38PM

I am quite sure Cameron is making money. Price is nearly $600 over spot. Seems like a very high and healthy price to me.

GAT · December 20, 2008 12:48PM

<< I am quite sure Cameron is making money. Price is nearly $600 over spot. Seems like a very high and healthy price to me. >>

How do you sell below the Mint's issue price plus eBay/Paypal fees and make money? It plain doesn't add up.

BacknBlack · December 20, 2008 12:49PM

I hope he's a better grader then coin trader. He sold them as "Buy it Now"s. Odd, as they would have sold for more in an auction format. He obviously sold them for less than I and other people would have paid.

OneCent · December 20, 2008 12:53PM

<< 

<< I am quite sure Cameron is making money. Price is nearly $600 over spot. Seems like a very high and healthy price to me. >>

How do you sell below the Mint's issue price plus eBay/Paypal fees and make money? It plain doesn't add up. >>

WHo is to say that he didn't buy them for around spot on the aftermarket? Somebody else bought them at the Mint Issue price

.

EvilEmpire · December 20, 2008 12:53PM

Somethin's up...check his last feedback received.

EvilEmpire · December 20, 2008 12:58PM

Honestly, I read this thread a half hour or so ago, and noticed his feedback at 99.9% (knowing all too well he's a top notch seller, fully expecting 99.9 or 100%). I came back to this thread, to see what was up, if Cam responded, clicked on the link again, and noticed he was at 99.8%. That last feedback was left at 10:34pm my time, and it's now just 10:55pm my time....

GAT · December 20, 2008 12:59PM

<< Somethin's up...check his last feedback received. >>

Exactly right and I am glad I started this thread and hope Cameron shows up to explain what's going on.

COINB0Y · December 20, 2008 1:02PM

There are no discounts on Collector stuff, as far as I know. I saw those too!

I know something is not right on these sales.

jbw · December 20, 2008 1:06PM

I bought one of these sets from him on 12/10 & he claims it was shipped out on 12/11 or 12/15 via insured Priority mail. As of today (12/20) I still haven't received it. I've emailed him several times & he assures that he will "make it right however it turns out", but now I'm starting to get nervous given the latest feedback he's received.

EvilEmpire · December 20, 2008 1:06PM

Decided to reply again with this, instead of leaving it as an edit...

edited to add....somethin' smells here...GAT could be right about the acct being hijacked. That feedback does NOT sound like the Cameron I read about for so long as a lurker....how outstanding he was at such a young age. Then he gets hitched, a young 'un now, and he ups an leaves a graders position with a major TPG to go out and try to make it on his own.......nah, sumthin's up.

SUMORADA · December 20, 2008 1:07PM

That BIN was from 12/3/08...................the OP just negged him.

Goldbully · December 20, 2008 1:09PM

This thread is gonna be HUGE!!!

EvilEmpire · December 20, 2008 1:11PM

GAT, there were no posts to this thread when I originally read it, and opened the link, so I must have just caught this thread no more than 22 minutes after you posted it.....you posted this thread at 10:11pm my time, 23 minutes BEFORE that last feedback was left. This is kinda freaking me out to have just about witnessed the bullet, happening while a thread is being discussed about it. Cam needs to be here....

OPA · December 20, 2008 1:13PM

<< There are no discounts on Collector stuff, as far as I know. I saw those too!

I know something is not right on these sales. >>

If you are accepted by the Mint ... the discount is around 5% ... but I don't believe this to be the case....Sure smells like his account has been hijacked...but 13 sets sold since 12/6 ... I'm having second thoughts about a hijack

FatMan · December 20, 2008 1:20PM

I agree it does look suspicious. I had just figured he bought some sets on the secondary market closer to melt. Times are bad and it seemed quite logical that people would be dumping these for some quick cash. But with the neg and the post above it is very out of character for Cameron.

GAT · December 20, 2008 1:21PM

<< GAT, there were no posts to this thread when I originally read it, and opened the link, so I must have just caught this thread no more than 22 minutes after you posted it.....you posted this thread at 10:11pm my time, 23 minutes BEFORE that last feedback was left. This is kinda freaking me out to have just about witnessed the bullet, happening while a thread is being discussed about it. Cam needs to be here.... >>

Evil Empire
I can guarantee you that I am not the one that left the feedback for Cameron. Some people here know who I am and my ID here is my initials. My eBay ID is my ham call sign AC6HZ and if you check I am not a big seller/buyer on the bay.

EvilEmpire · December 20, 2008 1:21PM

As sumorada says...

That BIN was from 12/3/08...................the OP just negged him.

Thats three weeks ago........

Goldbully's right. this is gonna be cool....

JohnMaben · December 20, 2008 1:21PM

Just the other day, I offered to pay $3000 per set for 1-5 Fresh (never certified) sets on the FACTS trading network. I bought zero.
$2150 is a give away....

John

jbw · December 20, 2008 1:21PM

I see he just responded to the negative feedback saying that several insured packages were lost & refunds given... Hmmm..

EvilEmpire · December 20, 2008 1:23PM

Goldbully, boy, that was fast!!! Got

really quick...

RichR · December 20, 2008 1:24PM

<<Board member and ex ICG grader Kiefer Numismatics has been listing and selling 4 coin 2008 W Platinum proof sets at only $2,150 which is below the Mint's issue price and fair market value. Considering he's losing a lot of money after eBay/Paypal fees it doesn't make sense. Has his account been hijacked? >>

<<Latest sold set. >>

I bought that set this AM...and he also sold another one yesterday afternoon:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=250345290433

I've just e-mailed the seller for an explanation. I used a credit card via PayPal.

Small world, no? Any other advice?

RichR

EvilEmpire · December 20, 2008 1:31PM

Wow, now I click on the link and Cam's responded like 11 minutes ago. This is freaking me out to have watched this from the start. Not sure if I'm watching a fender bender or a train wreck yet, but suspect I will very soon.

FatMan · December 20, 2008 1:32PM

<< I see he just responded to the negative feedback saying that several insured packages were lost & refunds given... Hmmm.. >>

It looks like a hijacked account. I cannot imagine Cameron using all caps in a reply and I doubt he would start the reply with WRONG!. Cameron just does not write like that. I have pm'd him without a reply.

ebizgobro · December 20, 2008 1:32PM

A search on eBay show 13 sales of the 2008 Platinum Proof Set by saleslab

08 plat proof set sales by saleslab

GAT · December 20, 2008 1:35PM

Something is really rotten in Denmark. Anyone know how to contact him via telephone and get him to explain here what's going on?

Goldbully · December 20, 2008 1:38PM

<< Goldbully, boy, that was fast!!! Got

really quick... >>

Actually EvilEmpire I policed myself for the good of this most important thread!!!

Thanks for noticing....never mind, that was not a hard thing to do!!!

EvilEmpire · December 20, 2008 1:38PM

I can't imagine Cam having his acct hijacked for so long (ok, 17 days, I said 3 weeks before) but that's still WAY too long without catching it, seeing it's not a part-time thing, his being a seller. He's a dealer, and one of the good ones, hough I have never dealt with him, all your praises speaks volumes about the kid's character..., and it's good enough for me. So, back to how it could be hijacked for so long........this is starting to look like a train wreck.

RichR · December 20, 2008 1:39PM

And he's also received positive feedback for the same set at the same price; here's one sold on November 7: (Item #290273520925)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290273520925

I checked his feedback before buying this morning. That would mean his account was hijacked a month and a half ago! Is that possble? Wouldn't it have been closed down by now?

Like I said, I've requested an explanation after seeing this thread. I'm also now on the verge of calling my credit card to place a potential fraud alert.

jbw · December 20, 2008 1:41PM

Okay - ***BREAKING NEWS*** I've received several emails from Cameron in the last few minutes & he says that he suspects someone at his local post office is responsible for the lost packages.
He just refunded me through paypal all but $85 of my purchase price, and will refund the rest on Monday.

EvilEmpire · December 20, 2008 1:46PM

Were those emails through ebay, or to your personal email acct? If it's ebay, there could still be problems.

edited to add: has the $$ actually hit your paypal acct?

jbw · December 20, 2008 1:47PM

<< Were those emails through ebay, or to your personal email acct? If it's ebay, there could still be problems. >>

They were to my personal email account.
Yes, the $$ has been refunded to my paypal account.

RichR · December 20, 2008 1:51PM

<< Were those emails through ebay, or to your personal email acct? If it's ebay, there could still be problems. >>

<<They were to my personal email account. >>

He hasn't replied to my e-mail (through eBay yet). Can you ask him why he's selling the sets so cheap?

Needless to say, I'm more than a little interested at this point!

notwilight · December 20, 2008 1:52PM

I sent him a message through ebay several days ago asking if the coins were fresh and never got a reply. --Jerry

EvilEmpire · December 20, 2008 1:55PM

Something's still up. Why would he give a refund short $85? If it was hijacked, there likely wouldn't be any $$$ in the account, thereby probably not being able to use any valid accounts registered with Paypal, as everything's been compromised. Is it too forward of mr to ask you, jbw (I LOVE the 'Chairman of the Board'...classy avatar), was payment from a CC (or is that something that isn't revealed), or come from an existing acct, meaning was it a cash or credit transaction (I don't like to, nor do I normally ask such questions, as everyone's financial is personal/private, so I mean not to snoop or pry).

RichR · December 20, 2008 1:56PM

Just wondering...not that I'm happy to possibly be party to a train wreck or anything...but have multiple parties to the same questionable eBay activity ever been responding live on a thread like this...or is this a first?

And to answer a question just asked of another buyer...I have a credit card sale for today's purchase via Payal with payment to Verified Seller Cameron Kiefer.

jbw · December 20, 2008 2:00PM

<< Something's still up. Why would he give a refund short $85? If it was hijacked, there likely wouldn't be any $$$ in the account, thereby probably not being able to use any valid accounts registered with Paypal, as everything's been compromised. Is it too forward of mr to ask you, jbw (I LOVE the 'Chairman of the Board'...classy avatar), was payment from a CC (or is that something that isn't revealed), or come from an existing acct, meaning was it a cash or credit transaction (I don't like to, nor do I normally ask such questions, as everyone's financial is personal/private, so I mean not to snoop or pry). >>

He said that that was all he had in his paypal account & would be transferring in more $$ on Monday to refund the rest. Yes, my original payment was from a CC and the refund is to my CC.

And thanks for the compliment on the "Chairman of the Board" avatar.. My father is actually the one who originally gave him that name. If you're from the NYC area, you probably would know who he was

OneCent · December 20, 2008 2:02PM

This guy will get to the truth...

COINB0Y · December 20, 2008 2:47PM

13-15 2008 W Proof Sets sold at $25 to almost $200 BELOW Issue?

A guy selling $4-$75 Coins all of a sudden 'sells stupid' at $2,000 to $2,150?

These set sales were spread out 15-16 days. Scam any way you look at it.

The Post Office looses 3-4 Packages? Nope, No way. Not if they were sent Registered or with Restricted Delivery.

There is no explanation, NONE.

I sell, it goes out the next day.

Any of you guys 'missing' Sets get a tracking Number?

Walks like a Duck, Craps like a Duck, its a Duck

jbw · December 20, 2008 2:55PM

I asked for a tracking or delivery confirmation number, but he said he only had the number from the insurance tag.
It seemed a little strange that he only charged $4 to insure a $2000+ package.

RichR · December 20, 2008 2:55PM

Coinboy:

This is a high volume dealer...a week ago, he sold these high-priced items and received positive feedback for all:

Fast response. Good communication. Thanks. wpark79 ( 18) Dec-15-08 22:48
2008-W $50 AMERICAN BUFFALO 1 OZ GOLD PROOF DEEP CAMEO (#250327195272) US $980.00 View Item
Everything worked out fine. wpark79 ( 18) Dec-15-08 22:47
2008-W $50 AMERICAN BUFFALO 1 OZ GOLD PROOF DEEP CAMEO (#290275722004) US $980.00 View Item
Good Seller. EZ to work with. 500wondambo ( 125) Dec-15-08 22:45
2008-W $50 AMERICAN BUFFALO 1 OZ GOLD PROOF DEEP CAMEO (#290275545335) US $980.00 View Item

I agree something MIGHT be up (and as one of his buyer's I'm more than a little concerned). But we're dealing with a power seller account with more than 3,400 pieces of feedback...for a full spectrum of numismatic merchandise...that was 99.9% positive until earlier tonight. This was not an obvious scam.

EvilEmpire · December 20, 2008 2:57PM

jbw, actually, being from the Boston area (North End/East Boston, then Medford, then Melrose.....Medford is where the feds actually got on audio and video tape those 'initiations'...beginning of the end around here), where my 'Pa' (grandfather, Italian off the boat) and uncles were members of a few 'social clubs' (think neighborhood feasts/festivals for every saint, which runs all summer). My uncle DID marry a woman from Westerly, RI (which led me to Hartford, CT a few times), but my family never crossed the river into NY, THOUGH, my 2nd cousin is Alex Rocco (EVERYONE knows who Alex Rocco is, I have to imagine), who is fom this area, Winter Hill in Somerville, Howie Winter, Whitey Bulger.....Alex was a member of those 'social clubs' too. Not alot of people know he did time in Boston back in the day...not a Paris Hilton sentence, he did 5=7, I believe, on racketeering), and never ratted anyone out. He was one of the few to actually be allowed to just 'leave' without, well, you know. He immediately ran to L.A. after that, and, subsequently made millions and millions of dollars being in every movie that needed a guy with a 'crooked nose' (pretty much every movie Ray Liotta made, though he DID do 'The George Carlin Show too), simply playing characters that ultimately, were him in real life. I also remember meeting Jackie (Fat Jack) DiNorscio, sometime in mid '03. I fell in love with him immediately. Such a wonderfully happy, friendly guy. I'll leave it at that.

Back to the action at hand.

smokincoin · December 20, 2008 2:58PM

I don't, personally, know a single one of you guys & gals here on this forum. Having said that, and if I were in his position, I would be here, consulting with you guys, the split second something like this began happening. That's disturbing my feeling about it all.

edited to add: Perhaps if the OP would change the title or someone started a new thread we'd get to the bottom of it all???

RichR · December 20, 2008 3:01PM

<<It seemed a little strange that he only charged $4 to insure a $2000+ package. >>

For this morning's sale, he charged me $4 shipping plus an additional $4 for insurance. That didn't strike me as completely odd...once again dealing with a guy who seemingly does a bulk business. Not to mention, in my own dealings, I sometimes pick up (and eat) the cost of insurance when selling, just for my own protection.

IMHO...IF....IF...IF...this is a scam...and like I said, I have not heard from the seller personally yet in response to my e-mail...so I can't say that it is for sure...but I'm suspecting that it might not be a highlacked account, but rather attempted sales of items not owned...or even worse, mail/insurance fraud!

These platinum sales have occurred over an extended period of time...longer than a highjacked account escaping notice by an experienced dealer would allow...not to mention a complete lack of negative feedback during the intervening period when many other sales were also being processed through the same account.

GAT · December 20, 2008 3:05PM

By now Cameron must be aware of this thread, why isn't he here?

GrumpyEd · December 20, 2008 3:07PM

It could be a hijacked acct or it could be that he shipped several together and they got snatched and he's in panick trying to deal with USPS. He'd need to refund it out of what he has since a postal refund won't be fast.

Hopefully he included signature confirmation and full insurance if it did all get lost.

COINB0Y · December 20, 2008 3:10PM

RickR,

I'm a fairly High $ EBay Dealer with almost 900 FeedBacks in about a year or so and I regularly sell stuff above $500+.

I know EBay.

This guy is high volume, low priced seller.

He shows no history of modern bullion sales untill this month. Nothing is for sale right now with this "High Volume" Dealer.

12-15 Plat Sets all under Melt, NO DELIVERIES? You are ONLY as good as your last sale.

You can't suspect anything else but fraud.

I lean to a highjacked account, not the Board Member.

RichR · December 20, 2008 3:14PM

<<It could be a hijacked acct or it could be that he shipped several together and they got snatched and he's in panick trying to deal with USPS. He'd need to refund it out of what he has since a postal refund won't be fast.>>

<<Hopefully he included signature confirmation and full insurance if it did all get lost. >>

This might be the explanation...EXCEPT that he sold the same set yesterday and another one this morning (to me). Now why would you be still selling the same item when there was a major, still unsettled screw up involving the USPS? The only explanation that MIGHT work is that the lost merchandise was recovered, he cancelled/credited some of the earlier sales (out of pocket) while the merchandise was missing, and now is trying to quickly resell the recovered platinum to recover his out-of-pocket expenses. But this is total conjecture on my part.

And yes, hearing from Cameron directly would help.

jbw · December 20, 2008 3:15PM

I'm not so sure about the hijacked account theory.. If it was a hijacked account, why would he have refunded me all but $85? And why would he be so quick to respond to my emails earlier this evening?

OneCent · December 20, 2008 3:16PM

2008 W Proof Platinum 4 coin sets selling at $2,150? UPDATE: More negs on eBay.

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