<< <i> This forum is the only place logic does not apply. Take a random poll on the street and the masses will be with you. Over here it is the opposite. Coins are like new cars NOW. As soon as you hand the money over BOOM!!! You got to hold it for 37 years to break even. Coin collectors in the 50's and 60's did well at sell time. Some in the 80's did not. I am in pretty deep on a few coins myself but i chose to do it. Might not be the smartest move but... In fact it is rather stupid but man i like those....
I would pay 1250 for a 500 dollar coin if the buy back was 95 percent, but we know it does not work that way.
He who wants to pay sheet gets sheet!! He who pays 3.5 times sheet gets good sheet, dealer laugh at dip sheet for paying 3.5 when resell is 30 back of sheet!!
Thank goodness the 2 main dealers i deal with do not operate this way. >>
pennyannie, that's a rather unfair generalization, plus you won't get a 95% from "any" dealer in the short run. Sheet prices for nice early copper are irrelevent and way off. The coin is, in fact, priced in-line for an EAC 35 coin base on the pricing published in current recognized copper pricing guides. These prices take into account condition, variety, rarity and are based on much more accurate data on early copper, IMO, than the sheet or mainstream pricing. You have to use the right reference point for really nice coins or you wlil always think that they are way overpriced. Yes, HLRC prices are strong, but HLRC is a specialist dealer and I think his pricing reflects the prices published in the guides like CQR and Penny Prices. Check the pricing of some nice varieties coins offered for sale by any copper specialist. Ultimately it comes down to a mater of whether you want to pay the price or not. Look at the coin and determine what it's worth to you. Walk away from any deal you don't like, but it's simply not fair to publicly insinuate less than honoranble business practices by HLRC.
Can you see how eBay, the internet, and WalMart has changed the attitudes of people ? Coin collecting has always had two sectors. Coins I cannot afford and coins I can. The ones that are too pricey are more appreciated than the ones I can afford.
Dealers are people who make a living with coins. I cannot begrudge my friends.
<< <i>Can you see how eBay, the internet, and WalMart has changed the attitudes of people ? Coin collecting has always had two sectors. Coins I cannot afford and coins I can. The ones that are too pricey are more appreciated than the ones I can afford.
Dealers are people who make a living with coins. I cannot begrudge my friends. >>
I agree, but a certain level of fairness should be involved. Using the 1808 half cent ($1250 asking price) as an example, I know for a fact (past experience) that if I take that exact coin to the 4 closest B&M shops in my area, the first thing all 4 owners will do is reach for the sheet. Thats just a pure fact. The next thing they will tell me is that sheet has common draped bust half cents listed at $210 in EF. And probably the very next thing from their mouths (this part is speculation) would be "its a nice coin, I'll give you $190 for it". The point im illustrating is that coin dealers seldom play fair. If they are selling the coin, its always "throw away the sheet for this one!". If im selling the coin, its always "well sheet says.....". Is that fair?
1. So what do you think the gross margin of a local B & M really is?
2. How about a more specialized higher end national dealer's gross margin?
3. How about shop at home (aka the coin dealer comedy channel)?
i think many collectors would be shocked if they really knew the answers to 1 and 2. Hint, not nearly as high as implied herein. Not even close.
Price guides are guides, not gospel and one has to understand rarity and how often you can find a certain coin problem free coin out there. An isolated coin in a dealers inventory is a bit over the top in trying to make a point about how coins are priced.
He wants $2250 for that coin. I bought the one below (PCGS 30) for $1,000 from Anaconda around this time last year. Higher grade, better eye appeal IMO, and at less than HALF the price. Hey Andy, explain this one to me.
>>
In my opinion, while these two DBHs share the same sport, they are not even close to being in the same ballpark.... or league and the offering prices reflects this.
He wants $2250 for that coin. I bought the one below (PCGS 30) for $1,000 from Anaconda around this time last year. Higher grade, better eye appeal IMO, and at less than HALF the price. Hey Andy, explain this one to me.
>>
In my opinion, while these two DBHs share the same sport, they are not even close to being in the same ballpark.... or league and the offering prices reflects this.
Apples and Oranges. >>
So you are saying that Harry's 1806 DBH PCGS VF20 O-117a is a better coin by a factor of more than 2 than mine?
He wants $2250 for that coin. I bought the one below (PCGS 30) for $1,000 from Anaconda around this time last year. Higher grade, better eye appeal IMO, and at less than HALF the price. Hey Andy, explain this one to me.
>>
In my opinion, while these two DBHs share the same sport, they are not even close to being in the same ballpark.... or league and the offering prices reflects this.
Apples and Oranges. >>
So you are saying that Harry's 1806 DBH PCGS VF20 O-117a is a better coin by a factor of more than 2 than mine? >>
If presented with the photos available and forced to choose one-I would gladly pay twice as much for the HLRC piece regardless of the asking price of the Anaconda (your) coin. This is just one man's opinion, not meant to disrespect your (or anyone else's) coins/collecting preferences.
<< <i>Can you see how eBay, the internet, and WalMart has changed the attitudes of people ? Coin collecting has always had two sectors. Coins I cannot afford and coins I can. The ones that are too pricey are more appreciated than the ones I can afford.
Dealers are people who make a living with coins. I cannot begrudge my friends. >>
I agree, but a certain level of fairness should be involved. Using the 1808 half cent ($1250 asking price) as an example, I know for a fact (past experience) that if I take that exact coin to the 4 closest B&M shops in my area, the first thing all 4 owners will do is reach for the sheet. Thats just a pure fact. The next thing they will tell me is that sheet has common draped bust half cents listed at $210 in EF. And probably the very next thing from their mouths (this part is speculation) would be "its a nice coin, I'll give you $190 for it". The point im illustrating is that coin dealers seldom play fair. If they are selling the coin, its always "throw away the sheet for this one!". If im selling the coin, its always "well sheet says.....". Is that fair? >>
You are probably right, unless you sell to a specialist dealer or collector, or at auction.. Non-specialists will look at the sheet or standard retail guides and offer accordingly.
Gecko, after reading your other thread entitled You can shear a sheep many times, but skin him just once! you stated that you were "...thrilled to buy this (1795 Flowing Hair) half dollar in PCGS 8 for well over double any printed price has it at" and you also stated in the same post that you were (...also very pleased with buying this (1806 Draped Bust) half dollar in PCGS VF30 for about three times any printed price."
I don't understand what you are complaining about? Do you? What is the point of this thread?
1834...I cannot challenge what you perceive as a more appealing look to a coin. However, IMO, my 1806 DBH is much more appealing than Harry's, and has a 10 point higher certified grade to boot. If you would rather pay $2250 for a VF20 with a drab color, and zero luster over the same coin in a VF30 with rainbow rim colors, and pockets of luster for LESS THAN HALF THE PRICE, its your money.
<< <i>Gecko, after reading your other thread entitled You can shear a sheep many times, but skin him just once! you stated that you were "...thrilled to buy this (1795 Flowing Hair) half dollar in PCGS 8 for well over double any printed price has it at" and you also stated in the same post that you were (...also very pleased with buying this (1806 Draped Bust) half dollar in PCGS VF30 for about three times any printed price."
I don't understand what you are complaining about? Do you? What is the point of this thread? >>
Check Heritage or Ebay closed auctions. Although I paid much more than any printed price guide on those 2 specific coins, you will see that the prices I paid are the norm for those series. Show me where an 1808 half cent in EF45 CONSISTANTLY sells for anywhere near $1250. Thats the point of the thread.
<< <i> So is it incorrect to start a thread wondering how he arrived at his prices? Im interested in one of his offerings, but nobody wants to pay well above a fair price either! >>
Your attitude is that all dealers are scumbags who shouldn't be allowed to make a living. If a coin sold at auction last year for $600 then by God you should be able to buy it from the dealer for $625. Given how many dealers there are here reading this and how reluctant they are to get into an argument with potential customers, there must be a lot of figurative tongues with teethmarks. --Jerry
Feel free to offer but when your offer of 10% over sheet for that 3.5x retail priced coin is rejected you're going to be looking kind of dopey. Really, you're only options for a coin priced like this are to pass or pay.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Jerry, not all dealers are scumbags, just the majority. Fortunately I have a semi-local B&M who shoots straight with me. The rest in the area are just looking for the rip. As far as online dealers, I only have limited experience. Anaconda has treatly me fairly, and although 97% of their inventory is well, well above retail pricing, their exceptional coins warrant it. The problem is when dealers try to justify well above retail prices for common, average looking coins. They somehow think that the strong money paid on PQ specimens is a "water lifts all boats" concept. There is where my frustration is born.
Some people collect bust halves by type. HLRC's example that you cite as too high priced is an O-117A. Apparently that is a scarce type--it's an R5. HLRC has another example of the O-117A which grades PCGS VF25 for $2750 but also has an O-114 (same 1806 date and also an R5) which grades PCGS XF40 for the same price of $2,750. This price differential suggests to me that for whatever reason, the O-117A is a more desirable variety. In addition, HLRC has an O-109 (which is an R1 but is also 1806) in PCGS VF25 for for $700 and another O-109 in PCGS VF35 for $1,100. From this pricing I also conclude that the O-117A is apparently a scarce type.
I do not collect these coins so I can not attribute what type your coin is. For your sake, I hope it's an O-117A, in which case perhaps you got a rip because you say you paid $1,000 for a VF30 coin. But if it's an O-109, perhaps you got ripped because the VF35 coin is for sale at HLRC for a mere $100 more than you paid for a VF30 coin.
<< <i>Jerry, not all dealers are scumbags, just the majority. Fortunately I have a semi-local B&M who shoots straight with me. The rest in the area are just looking for the rip. As far as online dealers, I only have limited experience. Anaconda has treatly me fairly, and although 97% of their inventory is well, well above retail pricing, their exceptional coins warrant it. The problem is when dealers try to justify well above retail prices for common, average looking coins. They somehow think that the strong money paid on PQ specimens is a "water lifts all boats" concept. There is where my frustration is born. >>
1. Your posts come across lumping all dealers into one scumbag lot.* 2. The coin that started this thread is not a "common, average looking coin".
--Jerry
* Edited to add: Based on what I've read, if I were on that Lie Detector TV show and they asked me, "Does Gecko really feel that way about dealers?", I would have to guess yes.
<< <i>Jerry, not all dealers are scumbags, just the majority. Fortunately I have a semi-local B&M who shoots straight with me. The rest in the area are just looking for the rip. As far as online dealers, I only have limited experience. Anaconda has treatly me fairly, and although 97% of their inventory is well, well above retail pricing, their exceptional coins warrant it. The problem is when dealers try to justify well above retail prices for common, average looking coins. They somehow think that the strong money paid on PQ specimens is a "water lifts all boats" concept. There is where my frustration is born. >>
1. Your posts come across lumping all dealers into one scumbag lot. 2. The coin that started this thread is not a "common, average looking coin".
--Jerry >>
1. Maybe you are right. 2. You are definately right!
That particular coin deserves a large premium, but over 3 1/2 times the retail? Maybe, I dont know for sure (reason why thread was started). I was generalizing about the large mark-ups on common date, average looking coins though. You do not see a similar trend in your area as well?
Some people collect bust halves by type. HLRC's example that you cite as too high priced is an O-117A. Apparently that is a scarce type--it's an R5. HLRC has another example of the O-117A which grades PCGS VF25 for $2750 but also has an O-114 (same 1806 date and also an R5) which grades PCGS XF40 for the same price of $2,750. This price differential suggests to me that for whatever reason, the O-117A is a more desirable variety. In addition, HLRC has an O-109 (which is an R1 but is also 1806) in PCGS VF25 for for $700 and another O-109 in PCGS VF35 for $1,100. From this pricing I also conclude that the O-117A is apparently a scarce type.
I do not collect these coins so I can not attribute what type your coin is. For your sake, I hope it's an O-117A, in which case perhaps you got a rip because you say you paid $1,000 for a VF30 coin. But if it's an O-109, perhaps you got ripped because the VF35 coin is for sale at HLRC for a mere $100 more than you paid for a VF30 coin. >>
Im not a DBH expert at all, far from it. But looking at his coin and mine, notice the die cracks in the date, they both appear to be the same Overton number. If im wrong, and man that would be some sticky egg on my face, please let me know about it.
I have the first Overton book but I purchased it in 1966 or so when I was first collecting. That's the extent of my knowledge of these die states. So I can't attribute your coin. As I said before, I hope for your sake it's an O-117A. In that case, you perhaps got a great deal. But if it's an O-109, you not only have egg but perhaps not such a great deal. (Though I, personally, do like your coin.)
Hello everyone, Harry will have a full explanation of the pricing regarding this coin. Really choice and undergraded coins often bring multiples of listed prices.
Cat Keller, HLRC.com
"I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." Thomas Jefferson
<< <i>That particular coin deserves a large premium, but over 3 1/2 times the retail >>
I know you enjoy skewing numbers in your favor, but the retail of an 1808 1/2 Cent PCGS XF45 is not $500. $500 is the retail for an XF40 graded piece and most collectors know a 45 is much different than a 40. I know what you're gonna say: is a 45 worth 3 1/2 times a 40? Probably not, but it is worth substantially more than a 40, especially with the eye appeal of the coin in question.
Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
<< <i>That particular coin deserves a large premium, but over 3 1/2 times the retail >>
I know you enjoy skewing numbers in your favor, but the retail of an 1808 1/2 Cent PCGS XF45 is not $500. $500 is the retail for an XF40 graded piece and most collectors know a 45 is much different than a 40. I know what you're gonna say: is a 45 worth 3 1/2 times a 40? Probably not, but it is worth substantially more than a 40, especially with the eye appeal of the coin in question. >>
Retail prices in magazines are often lower than PCGS' site. Furthermore, its commonly accepted that PCGS' online priceguide is about 20% too high on most issues. My copy of Coin Prices magazine lists the 1808 half cent at $350 in EF grade. $1250 divided by $350 is 3.57 times according to my calculator, but my calculator IS pretty old, might be broken. Why dont you do the calculation on YOUR calculator just to be sure.
Retail price guides are woefully out of date usually. Have you ever actually read a Coin Prices?. I'm sure you haven't, so allow me: Coin Prices, June 2008, page 46. Harry Miller says, "Early type coins continue upward, with the nicer more original coins bringing multiples of most price guides." This is written in Coin Prices magazine. Now, Gecko, we all know you have very little intelligent to say and even less original thought. You misquote others, you skew information to fit your needs and you flat out ignore information that refutes your claims. I'm sure you'll come up with some quip about what I just wrote and that's fine. Have a lovely afternoon my friend.
Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
Is Coin Prices evaluating coins graded by the top TPGs? FWIW, there are two 1808 1/2c in PCGS XF listed in Heritage's auction archives. (That's for the last ten years or so, which says something to me.) The XF45 went for $546 in 2005, and the XF40 went for $430 last year. It seems to me that the PCGS Price Guide valuation of $500 for XF45 is rather accurate, if not low.
I think we're pretty fortunate that HLRC will respond to this thread, and it will be interesting to read their reasoning.
I personally believe an open discussion of the mechanics of dealer pricing is helpful, getting sidetracked into personal issues is not. More transparancy is generally a good thing.
By the way, many of the values listed in the PCGS price guide come straight from dealer's asking prices, not necessarily verifiable sales. This is especially the case for rare or thinly traded issues.
I did not read the entire post, but can explain the varieties. The HLRC coin is 1806 O-117 (117a is not yet formally defined or published). Gecko's coin is 1806 O.116, listed as an R3, but probably more common. The HLRC is really a specialists coin that is known as the "Half Head", as the back half of Miss Liberty's hair has been lapped away in an attempt to reduce the severity of die cracks. Note the doubled T in LIBERTY has been lapped away on this last use of the obverse. The 117 is rated accurately at R5-, and will sell for a rarity premium. Both coins use the same obverse die, the reverse is different (look at the position of the lowest berry relative to A). I believe this coin came from the Westmoreland collection, the finest DBH die variety ever assembled, which is a desirable pedigree.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
He wants $2250 for that coin. I bought the one below (PCGS 30) for $1,000 from Anaconda around this time last year. Higher grade, better eye appeal IMO, and at less than HALF the price. Hey Andy, explain this one to me. >>
The explanation is quite simple.
Different coins at different times from different dealers have different prices. Just because your coin was cheaper doesn't mean that the coin in question is overpriced. >>
Spoken like a true dealer! In other words, there ARE better deals out there, and certain coins in certain inventories could possibly be overpriced? Imagine if I bought Harry's 1806 DBH in PCGS VF20 for $2250, then 2 weeks later saw my 1806 DBH in PCGS VF30 for less than half the price. It would be enough to make me give up on the hobby. And for the record GEN, how much would you offer me on my 1806 DBH? I SERIOUSLY doubt it would be anywhere CLOSE to $2250, yet it is a superior coin to Harry's O-117a. >>
If you're going to argue every comment I make then there is no point in posting a response to this thread. Put away the pompus attitude and try to comprehend other people's opinions instead of instantly rejecting them.
I'd offer you low on your 1806 Half because, in all honesty, I don't like the look of it.
Phil, you just don't get it. If you think a coin is too expensive, no one is pointing a gun at your head and forcing you to buy it. If you want to sell a coin and you can't find someone who will pay you what you think it's worth, you don't have to sell it. As someone else said, for most coins, the Heritage archives are very helpful.
Life is much more simple than most people believe. Many do an excellent job cluttering their life with **** to make it much more difficult than is necessary. Some people actually enjoy doing this sort of thing to themselves.
I haven't bought a coin in nearly a year. My business is doing well, so it's not like I have to cut back in this area. It's simply a matter of either I am not finding anything that interests me, or what interests me is priced more than I want to spend for it, so I don't buy. At the last big show I attended, a coin I found one coin I liked. I thought it was a $9,000, maybe a $9,500 coin, for which the dealer wanted $11,500. So either he sold it to someone else, he still has it, or maybe he lowered his price to sell it because he found no takers at that level.
It is what it is, and I moved on. I've looked sometimes for three or four years to find a particular coin at a price that's acceptable to me. If more people had my attitude, perhaps prices for coins in the $1,000 to $10,000 range might trend down.
Just want to add that because Laibstain or anyone else is asking a certain price for a particular coin does NOT mean that he will get it. I've seen dealers hold coins for the better part of a year, not moving them because they're asking too much, only to quietly wholesale them later without fanfare. Three coins immediately come to mind, but I don't want to name names.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Phil, you just don't get it. If you think a coin is too expensive, no one is pointing a gun at your head and forcing you to buy it. If you want to sell a coin and you can't find someone who will pay you what you think it's worth, you don't have to sell it. As someone else said, for most coins, the Heritage archives are very helpful.
Life is much more simple than most people believe. Many do an excellent job cluttering their life with **** to make it much more difficult than is necessary. Some people actually enjoy doing this sort of thing to themselves.
I haven't bought a coin in nearly a year. My business is doing well, so it's not like I have to cut back in this area. It's simply a matter of either I am not finding anything that interests me, or what interests me is priced more than I want to spend for it, so I don't buy. At the last big show I attended, a coin I found one coin I liked. I thought it was a $9,000, maybe a $9,500 coin, for which the dealer wanted $11,500. So either he sold it to someone else, he still has it, or maybe he lowered his price to sell it because he found no takers at that level.
It is what it is, and I moved on. I've looked sometimes for three or four years to find a particular coin at a price that's acceptable to me. If more people had my attitude, perhaps prices for coins in the $1,000 to $10,000 range might trend down.
Just want to add that because Laibstain or anyone else is asking a certain price for a particular coin does NOT mean that he will get it. I've seen dealers hold coins for the better part of a year, not moving them because they're asking too much, only to quietly wholesale them later without fanfare. Three coins immediately come to mind, but I don't want to name names. >>
I dont get it, thats why I posted a thread on this so by some chance I "will get it". Im trying to learn, thats all.
The HLRC half dollar in question realized $1380 at Heritage, the asking price is 63% higher at HLRC at $2250. Of course, HLRC costs and expenses are much higher than $1380, but you can judge for yourself if you think the coin is overpriced.
The HLRC O-117 VF20 half is arguably undergraded, as it does have some luster and a full reverse motto. The obverse is always weak on this variety from lapping.
It is always a good idea to watch all auctions for your specialty, as they can be one of the best sources for coins. It is also good to surf the best dealers websites frequently, including HLRC, as they often get coins from non-auction sources that may be priced more appropriately.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
<< <i>Hello everyone, Harry will have a full explanation of the pricing regarding this coin. Really choice and undergraded coins often bring multiples of listed prices.
Cat Keller, HLRC.com >>
Hi Cat. Welcome to the forum and I just want to wish all the folks at HLRC continued success!!!!
I have been working diligently to get photos posted to this thread and loaded into Harry's message, but have failed miserably. Thus, we have posted Harry's response on the website with photos to illustrate his explanation. Check-out HLRC.com
If I could get some help on posting pics to a thread for future use, I would really appreciate it.
Thanks, Cat
"I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." Thomas Jefferson
Has a decent set of gold. He has a crosslet half eagle I forgot to bid on at a Bowers or Stacks auction and is selling it for 4K more than final bid + fees.
I have researched the much maligned 1808 half cent on my list..........
This coin was purchased in public auction for 920!!!!
More importantly I had 1200 hammer to pay written in my catalog!!!
i.e I was prepared to pay 1380 but got it cheaper.......
I believed the coin would grade au50 or au55 and it has beautiful choice surfaces!!!!
I note the APRs for an NGC au50 was 920 and an Au55 sold for 2070, which is by the way 4 times greysheet
This is one of those coins that never trades at list, especially if it is choice
I have sold several that looked just like this for about the same price
check out the cases of any of the acclaimed and widely respected copper specialist....Tom Reynolds, Doug Bird, Chris McCawley
and I suspect you might encounter a similar coin at a similar price....
Andy was quite correct in suggesting you locate similar (quality, not just holder grade) coins and see what they cost before you judge the price too harshly. Virtually all of our pricing is done in relation to real market comps!
also.....the grading services have a hard time with these because of the strike.
they come a little dished out......the coin I have has almost no wear, no nicks, no problems
in short it is choice and I really liked it and felt some one else would as well
The coin looked like 1500 to me and still does. I doubt I ever looked at the price listings but went by the auction prices realized, plus previous experience with the issue and gauged my value from there
But because I bought it under my Max bid of 1200 hammer 1380 total, I decided to be even more reasonable!
Rest assured if pushed I would have paid the 1200 hammer...( in which case it would have made my list at 1650 or so......I buy many coins at auctions below my Max bid......that's why you should sell nice coins to me, rather than consigning them.
also note that although this is a common variety, it is the only variety of 1808 ( non overdate) and therefore by default collected by date collectors as well as variety specialists...........its an r1 without any other choices
Frankly for 1250 bucks I think its a great value. The coin is an absolute gem. A very nifty little sister.
Needless to say I do not believe the sheets on this issue and as my good friend Forrest says "that's all I`m gonna say about that" !
The astute collector who has brought this coin to my attention will likely be offered a reasonable discount if he pays by check and a very fair HLRC.com buyback. If I liked them once I will like them again. We make competitve buy sell spreads on the coins we sell!
See our website for an explanation of this policy.
I appreciate the chance to discuss this coin on the forum because clearly inquiring minds want to know.
thank you sincerely Harry Laibstain
"I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." Thomas Jefferson
<< <i> As far as online dealers, I only have limited experience. Anaconda has treatly me fairly, and although 97% of their inventory is well, well above retail pricing, their exceptional coins warrant it. The problem is when dealers try to justify well above retail prices for common, average looking coins. They somehow think that the strong money paid on PQ specimens is a "water lifts all boats" concept. There is where my frustration is born. >>
Gecko, I don't mean this to be a hit, but you really have no idea what you're talking about -- as both the DBH and bust half cent examples have shown. Perhaps you should lay off labeling dealers as greedy or questioning their motives until you understand what a exceptional coin looks like and the correct prices to be paid for such coins, or at least be more accepting of the words of the more experienced collectors who are trying to share with you their experience and perspective. Respectfully...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i> As far as online dealers, I only have limited experience. Anaconda has treatly me fairly, and although 97% of their inventory is well, well above retail pricing, their exceptional coins warrant it. The problem is when dealers try to justify well above retail prices for common, average looking coins. They somehow think that the strong money paid on PQ specimens is a "water lifts all boats" concept. There is where my frustration is born. >>
Gecko, I don't mean this to be a hit, but you really have no idea what you're talking about -- as both the DBH and bust half cent examples have shown. Perhaps you should lay off labeling dealers as greedy or questioning their motives until you understand what a exceptional coin looks like and the correct prices to be paid for such coins, or at least be more accepting of the words of the more experienced collectors who are trying to share with you their experience and perspective. Respectfully...Mike >>
I agree that some dealers' pricing doesn't coincide with my attractiveness to a particular coin, but I defend their right to price items they own for whatever price they damn well please!
Scans do not do copper justice. They always look darker than they actually are. Case in point above. If I had the dough, I'd buy it in a heartbeat!!!!!!
"Do the same for all of the coins in your inventory..." RYK...
Phil, your questions are valid... no doubt. But the beauty of business ownership in this great land is being able to "set your own price". I walk by a lot of stores without buying, but I would not think of picketing one that had higher prices than I wanted to pay. Let's understand how it works in America before we tear it down any more. On a side note, I think HLRC should give you a complimentary coin for the free advertisement.
Comments
<< <i> This forum is the only place logic does not apply. Take a random poll on the street and the masses will be with you. Over here it is the opposite. Coins are like new cars NOW. As soon as you hand the money over BOOM!!! You got to hold it for 37 years to break even. Coin collectors in the 50's and 60's did well at sell time. Some in the 80's did not. I am in pretty deep on a few coins myself but i chose to do it. Might not be the smartest move but... In fact it is rather stupid but man i like those....
I would pay 1250 for a 500 dollar coin if the buy back was 95 percent, but we know it does not work that way.
He who wants to pay sheet gets sheet!! He who pays 3.5 times sheet gets good sheet, dealer laugh at dip sheet for paying 3.5 when resell is 30 back of sheet!!
Thank goodness the 2 main dealers i deal with do not operate this way. >>
pennyannie, that's a rather unfair generalization, plus you won't get a 95% from "any" dealer in the short run. Sheet prices for nice early copper are irrelevent and way off. The coin is, in fact, priced in-line for an EAC 35 coin base on the pricing published in current recognized copper pricing guides. These prices take into account condition, variety, rarity and are based on much more accurate data on early copper, IMO, than the sheet or mainstream pricing. You have to use the right reference point for really nice coins or you wlil always think that they are way overpriced. Yes, HLRC prices are strong, but HLRC is a specialist dealer and I think his pricing reflects the prices published in the guides like CQR and Penny Prices. Check the pricing of some nice varieties coins offered for sale by any copper specialist. Ultimately it comes down to a mater of whether you want to pay the price or not. Look at the coin and determine what it's worth to you. Walk away from any deal you don't like, but it's simply not fair to publicly insinuate less than honoranble business practices by HLRC.
Coin collecting has always had two sectors. Coins I cannot afford and coins I can.
The ones that are too pricey are more appreciated than the ones I can afford.
Dealers are people who make a living with coins. I cannot begrudge my friends.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Can you see how eBay, the internet, and WalMart has changed the attitudes of people ?
Coin collecting has always had two sectors. Coins I cannot afford and coins I can.
The ones that are too pricey are more appreciated than the ones I can afford.
Dealers are people who make a living with coins. I cannot begrudge my friends. >>
I agree, but a certain level of fairness should be involved. Using the 1808 half cent ($1250 asking price) as an example, I know for a fact (past experience) that if I take that exact coin to the 4 closest B&M shops in my area, the first thing all 4 owners will do is reach for the sheet. Thats just a pure fact. The next thing they will tell me is that sheet has common draped bust half cents listed at $210 in EF. And probably the very next thing from their mouths (this part is speculation) would be "its a nice coin, I'll give you $190 for it". The point im illustrating is that coin dealers seldom play fair. If they are selling the coin, its always "throw away the sheet for this one!". If im selling the coin, its always "well sheet says.....". Is that fair?
2. How about a more specialized higher end national dealer's gross margin?
3. How about shop at home (aka the coin dealer comedy channel)?
i think many collectors would be shocked if they really knew the answers to 1 and 2. Hint, not nearly as high as implied herein. Not even close.
Price guides are guides, not gospel and one has to understand rarity and how often you can find a certain coin problem free coin out there. An isolated coin in a dealers inventory is a bit over the top in trying to make a point about how coins are priced.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
<< <i>Here is yet another example of an overpriced relatively common mid circ coin.
http://www.hlrc.com/inv/Record_zoom.php?INV_NO=92410
He wants $2250 for that coin. I bought the one below (PCGS 30) for $1,000 from Anaconda around this time last year. Higher grade, better eye appeal IMO, and at less than HALF the price. Hey Andy, explain this one to me.
In my opinion, while these two DBHs share the same sport, they are not even close to being in the same ballpark.... or league and the offering prices reflects this.
Apples and Oranges.
<< <i>
<< <i>Here is yet another example of an overpriced relatively common mid circ coin.
http://www.hlrc.com/inv/Record_zoom.php?INV_NO=92410
He wants $2250 for that coin. I bought the one below (PCGS 30) for $1,000 from Anaconda around this time last year. Higher grade, better eye appeal IMO, and at less than HALF the price. Hey Andy, explain this one to me.
In my opinion, while these two DBHs share the same sport, they are not even close to being in the same ballpark.... or league and the offering prices reflects this.
Apples and Oranges. >>
So you are saying that Harry's 1806 DBH PCGS VF20 O-117a is a better coin by a factor of more than 2 than mine?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Here is yet another example of an overpriced relatively common mid circ coin.
http://www.hlrc.com/inv/Record_zoom.php?INV_NO=92410
He wants $2250 for that coin. I bought the one below (PCGS 30) for $1,000 from Anaconda around this time last year. Higher grade, better eye appeal IMO, and at less than HALF the price. Hey Andy, explain this one to me.
In my opinion, while these two DBHs share the same sport, they are not even close to being in the same ballpark.... or league and the offering prices reflects this.
Apples and Oranges. >>
So you are saying that Harry's 1806 DBH PCGS VF20 O-117a is a better coin by a factor of more than 2 than mine? >>
If presented with the photos available and forced to choose one-I would gladly pay twice as much for the HLRC piece regardless of the asking price of the Anaconda (your) coin. This is just one man's opinion, not meant to disrespect your (or anyone else's) coins/collecting preferences.
<< <i>
<< <i>Can you see how eBay, the internet, and WalMart has changed the attitudes of people ?
Coin collecting has always had two sectors. Coins I cannot afford and coins I can.
The ones that are too pricey are more appreciated than the ones I can afford.
Dealers are people who make a living with coins. I cannot begrudge my friends. >>
I agree, but a certain level of fairness should be involved. Using the 1808 half cent ($1250 asking price) as an example, I know for a fact (past experience) that if I take that exact coin to the 4 closest B&M shops in my area, the first thing all 4 owners will do is reach for the sheet. Thats just a pure fact. The next thing they will tell me is that sheet has common draped bust half cents listed at $210 in EF. And probably the very next thing from their mouths (this part is speculation) would be "its a nice coin, I'll give you $190 for it". The point im illustrating is that coin dealers seldom play fair. If they are selling the coin, its always "throw away the sheet for this one!". If im selling the coin, its always "well sheet says.....". Is that fair? >>
You are probably right, unless you sell to a specialist dealer or collector, or at auction.. Non-specialists will look at the sheet or standard retail guides and offer accordingly.
I don't understand what you are complaining about? Do you? What is the point of this thread?
<< <i>Gecko, after reading your other thread entitled You can shear a sheep many times, but skin him just once! you stated that you were "...thrilled to buy this (1795 Flowing Hair) half dollar in PCGS 8 for well over double any printed price has it at" and you also stated in the same post that you were (...also very pleased with buying this (1806 Draped Bust) half dollar in PCGS VF30 for about three times any printed price."
I don't understand what you are complaining about? Do you? What is the point of this thread? >>
Check Heritage or Ebay closed auctions. Although I paid much more than any printed price guide on those 2 specific coins, you will see that the prices I paid are the norm for those series. Show me where an 1808 half cent in EF45 CONSISTANTLY sells for anywhere near $1250. Thats the point of the thread.
<< <i> So is it incorrect to start a thread wondering how he arrived at his prices? Im interested in one of his offerings, but nobody wants to pay well above a fair price either! >>
Your attitude is that all dealers are scumbags who shouldn't be allowed to make a living. If a coin sold at auction last year for $600 then by God you should be able to buy it from the dealer for $625. Given how many dealers there are here reading this and how reluctant they are to get into an argument with potential customers, there must be a lot of figurative tongues with teethmarks. --Jerry
Feel free to offer but when your offer of 10% over sheet for that 3.5x retail priced coin is rejected you're going to be looking kind of dopey.
Really, you're only options for a coin priced like this are to pass or pay.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Some people collect bust halves by type. HLRC's example that you cite as too high priced is an O-117A. Apparently that is a scarce type--it's an R5. HLRC has another example of the O-117A which grades PCGS VF25 for $2750 but also has an O-114 (same 1806 date and also an R5) which grades PCGS XF40 for the same price of $2,750. This price differential suggests to me that for whatever reason, the O-117A is a more desirable variety. In addition, HLRC has an O-109 (which is an R1 but is also 1806) in PCGS VF25 for for $700 and another O-109 in PCGS VF35 for $1,100. From this pricing I also conclude that the O-117A is apparently a scarce type.
I do not collect these coins so I can not attribute what type your coin is. For your sake, I hope it's an O-117A, in which case perhaps you got a rip because you say you paid $1,000 for a VF30 coin. But if it's an O-109, perhaps you got ripped because the VF35 coin is for sale at HLRC for a mere $100 more than you paid for a VF30 coin.
<< <i>Jerry, not all dealers are scumbags, just the majority.
1. Your posts come across lumping all dealers into one scumbag lot.*
2. The coin that started this thread is not a "common, average looking coin".
--Jerry
* Edited to add: Based on what I've read, if I were on that Lie Detector TV show and they asked me, "Does Gecko really feel that way about dealers?", I would have to guess yes.
<< <i>
<< <i>Jerry, not all dealers are scumbags, just the majority.
1. Your posts come across lumping all dealers into one scumbag lot.
2. The coin that started this thread is not a "common, average looking coin".
--Jerry >>
1. Maybe you are right.
2. You are definately right!
That particular coin deserves a large premium, but over 3 1/2 times the retail? Maybe, I dont know for sure (reason why thread was started). I was generalizing about the large mark-ups on common date, average looking coins though. You do not see a similar trend in your area as well?
<< <i>gecko109:
Some people collect bust halves by type. HLRC's example that you cite as too high priced is an O-117A. Apparently that is a scarce type--it's an R5. HLRC has another example of the O-117A which grades PCGS VF25 for $2750 but also has an O-114 (same 1806 date and also an R5) which grades PCGS XF40 for the same price of $2,750. This price differential suggests to me that for whatever reason, the O-117A is a more desirable variety. In addition, HLRC has an O-109 (which is an R1 but is also 1806) in PCGS VF25 for for $700 and another O-109 in PCGS VF35 for $1,100. From this pricing I also conclude that the O-117A is apparently a scarce type.
I do not collect these coins so I can not attribute what type your coin is. For your sake, I hope it's an O-117A, in which case perhaps you got a rip because you say you paid $1,000 for a VF30 coin. But if it's an O-109, perhaps you got ripped because the VF35 coin is for sale at HLRC for a mere $100 more than you paid for a VF30 coin. >>
Im not a DBH expert at all, far from it. But looking at his coin and mine, notice the die cracks in the date, they both appear to be the same Overton number. If im wrong, and man that would be some sticky egg on my face, please let me know about it.
I have the first Overton book but I purchased it in 1966 or so when I was first collecting. That's the extent of my knowledge of these die states. So I can't attribute your coin. As I said before, I hope for your sake it's an O-117A. In that case, you perhaps got a great deal. But if it's an O-109, you not only have egg but perhaps not such a great deal. (Though I, personally, do like your coin.)
Cat Keller, HLRC.com
<< <i>That particular coin deserves a large premium, but over 3 1/2 times the retail >>
I know you enjoy skewing numbers in your favor, but the retail of an 1808 1/2 Cent PCGS XF45 is not $500. $500 is the retail for an XF40 graded piece and most collectors know a 45 is much different than a 40. I know what you're gonna say: is a 45 worth 3 1/2 times a 40? Probably not, but it is worth substantially more than a 40, especially with the eye appeal of the coin in question.
<< <i>
<< <i>That particular coin deserves a large premium, but over 3 1/2 times the retail >>
I know you enjoy skewing numbers in your favor, but the retail of an 1808 1/2 Cent PCGS XF45 is not $500. $500 is the retail for an XF40 graded piece and most collectors know a 45 is much different than a 40. I know what you're gonna say: is a 45 worth 3 1/2 times a 40? Probably not, but it is worth substantially more than a 40, especially with the eye appeal of the coin in question. >>
Retail prices in magazines are often lower than PCGS' site. Furthermore, its commonly accepted that PCGS' online priceguide is about 20% too high on most issues. My copy of Coin Prices magazine lists the 1808 half cent at $350 in EF grade. $1250 divided by $350 is 3.57 times according to my calculator, but my calculator IS pretty old, might be broken. Why dont you do the calculation on YOUR calculator just to be sure.
I think we're pretty fortunate that HLRC will respond to this thread, and it will be interesting to read their reasoning.
More transparancy is generally a good thing.
By the way, many of the values listed in the PCGS price guide come straight from dealer's asking prices, not necessarily verifiable sales. This is especially the case for rare or thinly traded issues.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Here is yet another example of an overpriced relatively common mid circ coin.
http://www.hlrc.com/inv/Record_zoom.php?INV_NO=92410
He wants $2250 for that coin. I bought the one below (PCGS 30) for $1,000 from Anaconda around this time last year. Higher grade, better eye appeal IMO, and at less than HALF the price. Hey Andy, explain this one to me.
>>
The explanation is quite simple.
Different coins at different times from different dealers have different prices. Just because your coin was cheaper doesn't mean that the coin in question is overpriced. >>
Spoken like a true dealer! In other words, there ARE better deals out there, and certain coins in certain inventories could possibly be overpriced? Imagine if I bought Harry's 1806 DBH in PCGS VF20 for $2250, then 2 weeks later saw my 1806 DBH in PCGS VF30 for less than half the price. It would be enough to make me give up on the hobby. And for the record GEN, how much would you offer me on my 1806 DBH? I SERIOUSLY doubt it would be anywhere CLOSE to $2250, yet it is a superior coin to Harry's O-117a. >>
If you're going to argue every comment I make then there is no point in posting a response to this thread. Put away the pompus attitude and try to comprehend other people's opinions instead of instantly rejecting them.
I'd offer you low on your 1806 Half because, in all honesty, I don't like the look of it.
Life is much more simple than most people believe. Many do an excellent job cluttering their life with **** to make it much more difficult than is necessary. Some people actually enjoy doing this sort of thing to themselves.
I haven't bought a coin in nearly a year. My business is doing well, so it's not like I have to cut back in this area. It's simply a matter of either I am not finding anything that interests me, or what interests me is priced more than I want to spend for it, so I don't buy.
At the last big show I attended, a coin I found one coin I liked. I thought it was a $9,000, maybe a $9,500 coin, for which the dealer wanted $11,500. So either he sold it to someone else, he still has it, or maybe he lowered his price to sell it because he found no takers at that level.
It is what it is, and I moved on. I've looked sometimes for three or four years to find a particular coin at a price that's acceptable to me. If more people had my attitude, perhaps prices for coins in the $1,000 to $10,000 range might trend down.
Just want to add that because Laibstain or anyone else is asking a certain price for a particular coin does NOT mean that he will get it. I've seen dealers hold coins for the better part of a year, not moving them because they're asking too much, only to quietly wholesale them later without fanfare. Three coins immediately come to mind, but I don't want to name names.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Phil, you just don't get it. If you think a coin is too expensive, no one is pointing a gun at your head and forcing you to buy it. If you want to sell a coin and you can't find someone who will pay you what you think it's worth, you don't have to sell it. As someone else said, for most coins, the Heritage archives are very helpful.
Life is much more simple than most people believe. Many do an excellent job cluttering their life with **** to make it much more difficult than is necessary. Some people actually enjoy doing this sort of thing to themselves.
I haven't bought a coin in nearly a year. My business is doing well, so it's not like I have to cut back in this area. It's simply a matter of either I am not finding anything that interests me, or what interests me is priced more than I want to spend for it, so I don't buy.
At the last big show I attended, a coin I found one coin I liked. I thought it was a $9,000, maybe a $9,500 coin, for which the dealer wanted $11,500. So either he sold it to someone else, he still has it, or maybe he lowered his price to sell it because he found no takers at that level.
It is what it is, and I moved on. I've looked sometimes for three or four years to find a particular coin at a price that's acceptable to me. If more people had my attitude, perhaps prices for coins in the $1,000 to $10,000 range might trend down.
Just want to add that because Laibstain or anyone else is asking a certain price for a particular coin does NOT mean that he will get it. I've seen dealers hold coins for the better part of a year, not moving them because they're asking too much, only to quietly wholesale them later without fanfare. Three coins immediately come to mind, but I don't want to name names. >>
I dont get it, thats why I posted a thread on this so by some chance I "will get it". Im trying to learn, thats all.
.
goodness knows I've made some stupid purchases, my own damn fault
<< <i>some of us need to be left alone to stew in our own stupidity
.
goodness knows I've made some stupid purchases, my own damn fault >>
We all have.....im trying to avoid doing so again, thats the crux of this thread.
<< <i>great, then avoid it >>
But is it a stupid purchase? There lies the rub!
The HLRC O-117 VF20 half is arguably undergraded, as it does have some luster and a full reverse motto. The obverse is always weak on this variety from lapping.
It is always a good idea to watch all auctions for your specialty, as they can be one of the best sources for coins. It is also good to surf the best dealers websites frequently, including HLRC, as they often get coins from non-auction sources that may be priced more appropriately.
<< <i>Hello everyone, Harry will have a full explanation of the pricing regarding this coin. Really choice and undergraded coins often bring multiples of listed prices.
Cat Keller, HLRC.com >>
Hi Cat. Welcome to the forum and I just want to wish all the folks at HLRC continued success!!!!
Lee Gast
I have been working diligently to get photos posted to this thread and loaded into Harry's message, but have failed miserably. Thus, we have posted Harry's response on the website with photos to illustrate his explanation. Check-out HLRC.com
If I could get some help on posting pics to a thread for future use, I would really appreciate it.
Thanks, Cat
<< <i>Harry Labstain's website >>
He sure has a very nice inventory, doesnt he?
<< <i>
<< <i>Harry Labstain's website >>
He sure has a very nice inventory, doesnt he?
Has a decent set of gold. He has a crosslet half eagle I forgot to bid on at a Bowers or Stacks auction and is selling it for 4K more than final bid + fees.
Lend me your eyes!
I have researched the much maligned 1808 half cent on my list..........
This coin was purchased in public auction for 920!!!!
More importantly I had 1200 hammer to pay written in my catalog!!!
i.e I was prepared to pay 1380 but got it cheaper.......
I believed the coin would grade au50 or au55 and it has beautiful choice surfaces!!!!
I note the APRs for an NGC au50 was 920 and an Au55 sold for 2070, which is by the way 4 times greysheet
This is one of those coins that never trades at list, especially if it is choice
I have sold several that looked just like this for about the same price
check out the cases of any of the acclaimed and widely respected copper specialist....Tom Reynolds, Doug Bird, Chris McCawley
and I suspect you might encounter a similar coin at a similar price....
Andy was quite correct in suggesting you locate similar (quality, not just holder grade) coins and see what they cost before you judge the price too harshly. Virtually all of our pricing is done in relation to real market comps!
also.....the grading services have a hard time with these because of the strike.
they come a little dished out......the coin I have has almost no wear, no nicks, no problems
in short it is choice and I really liked it and felt some one else would as well
The coin looked like 1500 to me and still does. I doubt I ever looked at the price listings but went by the auction prices realized, plus previous experience with the issue and gauged my value from there
But because I bought it under my Max bid of 1200 hammer 1380 total, I decided to be even more reasonable!
Rest assured if pushed I would have paid the 1200 hammer...( in which case it would have made my list at 1650 or so......I buy many coins at auctions below my Max bid......that's why you should sell nice coins to me, rather than consigning them.
also note that although this is a common variety, it is the only variety of 1808 ( non overdate) and therefore by default collected by date collectors as well as variety specialists...........its an r1 without any other choices
Frankly for 1250 bucks I think its a great value. The coin is an absolute gem. A very nifty little sister.
Needless to say I do not believe the sheets on this issue and as my good friend Forrest says "that's all I`m gonna say about that" !
The astute collector who has brought this coin to my attention will likely be offered a reasonable discount if he pays by check and a very fair HLRC.com buyback. If I liked them once I will like them again. We make competitve buy sell spreads on the coins we sell!
See our website for an explanation of this policy.
I appreciate the chance to discuss this coin on the forum because clearly inquiring minds want to know.
thank you
sincerely
Harry Laibstain
Just kidding.
<< <i> As far as online dealers, I only have limited experience. Anaconda has treatly me fairly, and although 97% of their inventory is well, well above retail pricing, their exceptional coins warrant it. The problem is when dealers try to justify well above retail prices for common, average looking coins. They somehow think that the strong money paid on PQ specimens is a "water lifts all boats" concept. There is where my frustration is born. >>
Gecko, I don't mean this to be a hit, but you really have no idea what you're talking about -- as both the DBH and bust half cent examples have shown. Perhaps you should lay off labeling dealers as greedy or questioning their motives until you understand what a exceptional coin looks like and the correct prices to be paid for such coins, or at least be more accepting of the words of the more experienced collectors who are trying to share with you their experience and perspective. Respectfully...Mike
<< <i>
<< <i> As far as online dealers, I only have limited experience. Anaconda has treatly me fairly, and although 97% of their inventory is well, well above retail pricing, their exceptional coins warrant it. The problem is when dealers try to justify well above retail prices for common, average looking coins. They somehow think that the strong money paid on PQ specimens is a "water lifts all boats" concept. There is where my frustration is born. >>
Gecko, I don't mean this to be a hit, but you really have no idea what you're talking about -- as both the DBH and bust half cent examples have shown. Perhaps you should lay off labeling dealers as greedy or questioning their motives until you understand what a exceptional coin looks like and the correct prices to be paid for such coins, or at least be more accepting of the words of the more experienced collectors who are trying to share with you their experience and perspective. Respectfully...Mike >>
I agree that some dealers' pricing doesn't coincide with my attractiveness to a particular coin, but I defend their right to price items they own for whatever price they damn well please!
Phil, your questions are valid... no doubt. But the beauty of business ownership in this great land is being able to "set your own price". I walk by a lot of stores without buying, but I would not think of picketing one that had higher prices than I wanted to pay.
Let's understand how it works in America before we tear it down any more.
On a side note, I think HLRC should give you a complimentary coin for the free advertisement.
Definitely a beautiful coin.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I buy many coins at auctions below my Max bid......that's why you should sell nice coins to me, rather than consigning them. >>
Hi Harry!!
You are the man!!! Just keep on pumping it.
Steve
Gecko
Harry's pictures are not all that great (sorry Harry). HLRC"s pics always make his coins look washed out. Remember you
can't judge or grade a coin from a picture. If you notice the scan from the auction you will see a very pleasing brown H.C.
with smooth surfaces. Copper collectors pay very large premiums for smooth planchets. The price guides are for average
quality coins not Premium coins.
I have a question for you. If you were a dealer and willing to pay $2K for a coin at auction but ended up buying it for
$1k.
What would your selling price be?