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Beautiful coin, but worth over 3.5x retail???
gecko109
Posts: 8,231 ✭
Check out this gorgeous 1/2 cent from Harry Laibstain's website. Awesome coin for sure, but just a R1, and in circulated condition. This coin is listed @ $350 in EF in one of my priceguides, and $500 in EF on PCGS' website. So what gives with the $1,250 ask price?
http://www.hlrc.com/inv/Record_zoom.php?INV_NO=94122
http://www.hlrc.com/inv/Record_zoom.php?INV_NO=94122
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<< <i>Check out this gorgeous 1/2 cent from Harry Laibstain's website. Awesome coin for sure, but just a R1, and in circulated condition. This coin is listed @ $350 in EF in one of my priceguides, and $500 in EF on PCGS' website. So what gives with the $1,250 ask price?
http://www.hlrc.com/inv/Record_zoom.php?INV_NO=94122 >>
it appears the rotated die is the reason?
otherwise it is a very eye appealing coin and could fetch a buyer
who does not mind paying up for it.
but according to your info it does seem to be optimistically priced.
Plus, early copper is popular.
roles were reverse.
30% over greysheet?
pcgs price guide?
900 dollars?
hmmmm
<< <i>one has to wonder what a dealer would be willing to pay for it if the
roles were reverse.
30% over greysheet?
pcgs price guide?
900 dollars?
hmmmm >>
FC, this is the EXACT reason I wont pay $1250 for that coin! You nailed it! I dont mind being upside down on a coin I really dig and plan on holding long term anyway, but I can think of no circumstances where if I had to sell that coin to a dealer would I ever be offered more than the PCGS guide price, IF even that much.
(Do not assume that I think the coin is a good value, or bad. I have no opinion.)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Never mind the price guides. Show me where you can get an equivalent coin for a lower price.
(Do not assume that I think the coin is a good value, or bad. I have no opinion.) >>
it seems one should be able to cruise over to heritage to get a good
idea of what they have been selling for in that grade range. eye appealing
to disgusting...
one might be able to see that exact coin hammered for just months
ago maybe.
if none get past 1000, one has to consider it is over priced unless the
die rotation is quite unique?
i also think your statement of "Show me where you can get an equivalent coin for a lower price."
is truly the way someone thinks when they have to have it now.
no patience. of course you might not be able to show one right now..
but obviously in the next year you could, for maybe a lower price...
but all coins are different and in hand this one might be the cream
of the crop. i just don't know. i go through this with half eagles all
the time in my price range.
<< <i>Never mind the price guides. Show me where you can get an equivalent coin for a lower price.
(Do not assume that I think the coin is a good value, or bad. I have no opinion.) >>
Andy, its always the same reply from dealers....."throw away the sheet"...."nevermind price guides".....but only when im buying. When I go to sell, guess what EVERY dealer reaches for immediately? Thats right Andy....all of the sudden the sheet DOES matter now!
With an attitude like that, I expect that you've been buying coins for which the sheet really does matter. In other words, you bought them close to sheet. And there's a reason you could do that.
That said, I'll concede that even for the coins that really are worth way more than sheet, lots of dealers will try to buy the coins near sheet levels. No surprise there.
Anyway, enough of the theoretical "stuff". Show me a better deal on an 1808 half cent and we'll be getting somewhere.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>its always the same reply from dealers....."throw away the sheet"...."nevermind price guides".....but only when im buying >>
Gecko, you sound like a broken record, buddy. I sold these coins to JJ Teaparty at CSNS:
1869 Indian PCGS AU50: $480 (PCGS price $485 for a AU55)
1870 Indian PCGS AU55: $400 (PCGS price guide $400)
1895-S Morgan Dollar PCGS VF25: $775 (PCGS F12 $600, XF40 $1000)
It all depends on what coin you're selling and who you're selling it to. If you bought that coin from HLRC and at some point in the future had to sell it, HLRC would be the place to go to get the best price.
Anyone who has dealt with Harry knows that he has a strong buyback on his material. He also specializes in high quality material that you will need to pay real money for.
<< <i>I am bored, lets pick a dealer, pick a coin from their stock and complain about prices. Andy, you should know that this thread is merely started to cause conflict.
Anyone who has dealt with Harry knows that he has a strong buyback on his material. He also specializes in high quality material that you will need to pay real money for. >>
David, Im trying to understand why a relatively common coin with LOADS of eye appeal sells for 3.5x retail, when I know that maybe 5% or less of the dealers in this country would even come close to a $500 buy offer if I were trying to unload this coin. Help me to understand that please. Like I said, "throw the sheet away" if im buying, but lets take a look at the sheet when im selling. Seems fair, huh?
PAY or PASS. Its that easy.
Ken
Five-percent works out to be a surprisingly large number of dealers to whom you could sell.
For others, they will pass.
Garrow
<< <i>Like I said, "throw the sheet away" if im buying, but lets take a look at the sheet when im selling. Seems fair, huh? >>
When you're selling your coins, you have every right to tell the dealers you're offering them to to "throw away the sheet", you know...
He wants to sell it at a fair margin.
If it really is overpriced, he has done harm to his image and will sit on the coin.
If priced properly or even a little high, it'll be gone in good order.
As others have said, just pass if it's too expensive for you.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>Gecko are you a collector? Here is the deal for collectors.
PAY or PASS. Its that easy.
Ken >>
Amen.
Link
<< <i>Anyone who has dealt with Harry knows that he has a strong buyback on his material. He also specializes in high quality material that you will need to pay real money for. >>
<< <i>Gecko are you a collector? Here is the deal for collectors.
PAY or PASS. Its that easy.
Ken >>
What ever happened to the 3rd option....OFFER?
http://www.hlrc.com/inv/Record_zoom.php?INV_NO=92410
He wants $2250 for that coin. I bought the one below (PCGS 30) for $1,000 from Anaconda around this time last year. Higher grade, better eye appeal IMO, and at less than HALF the price. Hey Andy, explain this one to me.
If it is too strong for you, now that's a question only you can answer.
I can tell you this, if I were on the hunt for an 1808 half cent in XF (a tough coin to begin with), this coin would be VERY HIGH on that list...Mike
<< <i>That's a strong price, but that's also a strong coin, in my humble opinion.
If it is too strong for you, now that's a question only you can answer.
I can tell you this, if I were on the hunt for an 1808 half cent in XF (a tough coin to begin with), this coin would be VERY HIGH on that list...Mike >>
Its a GREAT coin, no debate at all. I just dont want to be buried in it at that price. at even double retail, or $700, im comfortable. But if you look at the post above, with the DBH, it makes me kinda wonder if $1250 is a bit too high on that half cent. Would hate to put the money in only to see its equal for sale at $700 somewhere else!
<< <i>Here is yet another example of an overpriced relatively common mid circ coin.
http://www.hlrc.com/inv/Record_zoom.php?INV_NO=92410
He wants $2250 for that coin. I bought the one below (PCGS 30) for $1,000 from Anaconda around this time last year. Higher grade, better eye appeal IMO, and at less than HALF the price. Hey Andy, explain this one to me.
>>
The explanation is quite simple.
Different coins at different times from different dealers have different prices. Just because your coin was cheaper doesn't mean that the coin in question is overpriced.
<< <i> Awesome ... and in circulated condition. .... >>
You can do better. Hold out for an MS example.
My latest purchase was a problem free coin at an F15 grade. I paid 130% of PCGS price guide for it.
<< <i>
<< <i>Here is yet another example of an overpriced relatively common mid circ coin.
http://www.hlrc.com/inv/Record_zoom.php?INV_NO=92410
He wants $2250 for that coin. I bought the one below (PCGS 30) for $1,000 from Anaconda around this time last year. Higher grade, better eye appeal IMO, and at less than HALF the price. Hey Andy, explain this one to me.
>>
The explanation is quite simple.
Different coins at different times from different dealers have different prices. Just because your coin was cheaper doesn't mean that the coin in question is overpriced. >>
Spoken like a true dealer! In other words, there ARE better deals out there, and certain coins in certain inventories could possibly be overpriced? Imagine if I bought Harry's 1806 DBH in PCGS VF20 for $2250, then 2 weeks later saw my 1806 DBH in PCGS VF30 for less than half the price. It would be enough to make me give up on the hobby. And for the record GEN, how much would you offer me on my 1806 DBH? I SERIOUSLY doubt it would be anywhere CLOSE to $2250, yet it is a superior coin to Harry's O-117a.
<< <i>Quality coins are hard to come by, I am sure he paid a premium for it and is selling it accordingly.
My latest purchase was a problem free coin at an F15 grade. I paid 130% of PCGS price guide for it. >>
130% aint CHIT!
Edited to add: If this coin was at 130% of the PCGS guide, we wouldnt even be having this convo, at $650, I would have owned that half cent 3 seconds after his webpage opened.
<< <i>Gecko, you are relying on the wrong pricing guides for nice early copper. Copper specialists - specialist dealers and collectors largely rely on either Noyes' Penny Prices or the most recently published CQR (Copper Quotes by Robinson) price guide as a basis for buying and selling early copper varieties. These prices are more precise (rely on accurate data) priced in EAC grades - by variety and condition (scudzy, average minus, average/ average plus, and choice). The 1803 C-03 HC you refer to is priced in CQR at $1,250 in EAC VF 35 and $2,000 in in EAC 40 for an Average condition coin....... $1,500 in EAC VF 35 for a choice coin. The coin in-hand (and I say that because the photo is difficult to grade by) probably grades somewhere north or south of an equivelent EAC 35, and that's about where HLRC has priced it. The conventional pricing guides listing early copper are woefully inaccurate for the most part, IMO. I'd buy choice early copper all day long at Coin Values prices - if I could find it. Pricing does not reflect the actual copper market and variety and condition considerations do not play a part in conventional pricing whereas they do in EAC pricing. HLRC copper prices are indeed full retail and strong, but certainly not outrageous if you apply the conventional wisdom of EAC grading and pricing. >>
Thanks for the insightful look into the world of copper. However, the coin im referring to is not an 1803, but rather an 1808. Not sure if that was just a typo on your part or not, or whether it influences the prices you quoted. But based on a draped bust half dollar in Harry's inventory, and the asking price relative to the same coin I purchased a year ago, its hard not to conclude that his inventory may be priced just a tad on the optimistic side.
<< <i>
<< <i>Quality coins are hard to come by, I am sure he paid a premium for it and is selling it accordingly.
My latest purchase was a problem free coin at an F15 grade. I paid 130% of PCGS price guide for it. >>
130% aint CHIT!
Edited to add: If this coin was at 130% of the PCGS guide, we wouldnt even be having this convo, at $650, I would have owned that half cent 3 seconds after his webpage opened.
True but 30% of 3K is a lot more than this half cent.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Quality coins are hard to come by, I am sure he paid a premium for it and is selling it accordingly.
My latest purchase was a problem free coin at an F15 grade. I paid 130% of PCGS price guide for it. >>
130% aint CHIT!
Edited to add: If this coin was at 130% of the PCGS guide, we wouldnt even be having this convo, at $650, I would have owned that half cent 3 seconds after his webpage opened.
True but 30% of 3K is a lot more than this half cent.
True, but your Charlotte gold coin (I assume thats what you refer to) is a helluva lot more rare than this half cent as well.
<< <i>Thanks for pointing that out - it was a typo. The CQR prices I quoted were for an 1808 C-03 in Average condition. Not being a early dollar specialist I can't comment on his prices in that arena, but Yes, I do agree his prices are strong IMO. >>
Again, thanks for the unbiased report on the copper market. Just answer one simple question. If I bought that 1808 at $1250, would I be buried in it for some time? I loathe being upsidedown on new coin purchases by more than 30% or so. Therefore, if I bought it at $1250, and couldnt dump it in a hurry for at least $900, it isnt for me. Your opinion?
<< <i>Its a GREAT coin, no debate at all. I just dont want to be buried in it at that price. at even double retail, or $700, im comfortable. But if you look at the post above, with the DBH, it makes me kinda wonder if $1250 is a bit too high on that half cent. Would hate to put the money in only to see its equal for sale at $700 somewhere else! >>
There's a big difference between a DBH looking like the one pictured above and an 1806 half cent in Mr. Laibstain's inventory. Also, there's a huge divergence between PCGS price guides and the prices these coins garner in the open market (both auction and retail) -- as 1798collector correctly pointed out.
Although his response might be interpreted as flippant, Mr. Lustig is dead on correct. Try and find another VF/XF 1806 that looks like that -- FOR ANY PRICE.
As a type coin, there are much better alternatives that will have more value for your money (for instance 1804), but if you're on the hunt for a nice 1806, this coin warrants serious consideration at that price, in my humble opinion. A tad on the strong side, but not so much so as to disqualify it from consideration in my eyes.
But in the end it is YOUR opinion that matters...PASS or PLAY???
Respectfully...Mike
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks for pointing that out - it was a typo. The CQR prices I quoted were for an 1808 C-03 in Average condition. Not being a early dollar specialist I can't comment on his prices in that arena, but Yes, I do agree his prices are strong IMO. >>
Again, thanks for the unbiased report on the copper market. Just answer one simple question. If I bought that 1808 at $1250, would I be buried in it for some time? I loathe being upsidedown on new coin purchases by more than 30% or so. Therefore, if I bought it at $1250, and couldn't dump it in a hurry for at least $900, it isnt for me. Your opinion? >>
I think you have to buy this stuff with the long-term in mind. You can usually count on taking a 20% or so hit in the short term, except maybe with very desirable coins. If you assume you are buying this coin at stronger EAC prices, you also have to realize that the market for the stronger prices when selling will also be EACers or those paying EAC prices. I can also tell you I have paid very strong prices for rare and choice coppers - and would and have had no trouble selling them for a nice profit a year or two afterwards.
Having said that, I don't think you will lose out on a desirable and appealing choice copper. They are hard to locate, rare, and in demand. If you have an interest in early copper a premium is worth it for a coin you will be happy with.
If you are at a show, you might also ask what the best price is on the coin - 5-10% discounts off full retail or above prices are sometimes given by dealers. Post a picture if you decide to purchase it.
I would pay 1250 for a 500 dollar coin if the buy back was 95 percent, but we know it does not work that way.
He who wants to pay sheet gets sheet!! He who pays 3.5 times sheet gets good sheet, dealer laugh at dip sheet for paying 3.5 when resell is 30 back of sheet!!
Thank goodness the 2 main dealers i deal with do not operate this way.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>These high-end special coins almost always will be bought back at very close to the selling price by the same specialist dealer who sold it, and will also bring high prices at public auction. Gecko's incessant complaints about scenarios where coins are bought at specialist prices then resold at huge losses for Greysheet to some unspecified dealer simply are not representative of the coin market. >>
So in paying $1250 for a listed $500 coin (full retail,PCGS site) , I need to rely on Mr. Laibstain's good health and longevity to ensure that I wont be eating the better part of this purchase?
Simple answer is: Don't buy it, and you won't have to rely on anything. If it were a Large Cent (my collecting area), and I was after that date, I would pay the price to get a beautiful example. These things are not available whenever you want one. Very different market than MS70 moderns. Then again, I've always been a COLLECTOR, not an INVESTOR. I recently paid quite a bit over Price Guide prices for a couple of Large Cents, but they were stunning coins.
In any event, if a dealer prices coins too high, my guess is that he wouldn't be in business long.
<< <i>"So in paying $1250 for a listed $500 coin (full retail,PCGS site) , I need to rely on Mr. Laibstain's good health and longevity to ensure that I wont be eating the better part of this purchase? "
Simple answer is: Don't buy it, and you won't have to rely on anything. If it were a Large Cent (my collecting area), and I was after that date, I would pay the price to get a beautiful example. These things are not available whenever you want one. Very different market than MS70 moderns. Then again, I've always been a COLLECTOR, not an INVESTOR. I recently paid quite a bit over Price Guide prices for a couple of Large Cents, but they were stunning coins.
In any event, if a dealer prices coins too high, my guess is that he wouldn't be in business long. >>
Please refer back to page 2 of this thread and have a look at that 1806 DBH listed in the dealer's inventory for $2250. Now look at the one I bought recently for $1000. And you believe that a dealer's inventory is somehow immune to overpricing based on the assumption that he would be out of business? It seems more the case that "let me price this coin to the moon and hope some sucker happens upon it" to me.
<< <i>Phil -- Your posts suggest to me that this thread is about more than the price of a single coin in a single dealer's inventory. What's the point that you're driving toward? >>
Originally it was just about that particular 1808 half cent. But when Andy Lustig jumped in and told me to find a nicer one at the price, it got me to thinking. Lets see what other coins Mr. Laibstain has in his inventory that are comparable to coins in my own collection. That is how I stumbled upon the 1806 DBH O-117a. It completely shocked me! The difference in both quality AND price in his coin, and mine now makes me wonder if all his prices are optimistic. Perhaps I got the deal of a lifetime on my O-117a, but I strongly suspect its more of a case of an overpriced inventory aimed at taking full advantage of a hot coin market. I have no personal beef with Harry. He has some gorgeous coins. Im just trying to learn how he has arrived at some of the asking prices, and trying to protect my financial interests while participating in this great hobby.
<< <i>Harry has some very nice early copper. He prices some of these coins very strong, ahead of the market, in my opinion. He has an S-13 in PCGS G6 right now on his website, asking $18,500. This coin sold at public auction on March 4 for $13,226. >>
So is it incorrect to start a thread wondering how he arrived at his prices? Im interested in one of his offerings, but nobody wants to pay well above a fair price either!