I would have to agree with the names you suggest. All are worthy of consideration. I wouldnt be surprised to see more of the linemen from that group get in than some of the skill players. My reasoning is that many of those skill players while good, were more than overshadowed by the likes of Payton, Smith, Sanders, Rice etc. Though most of the names are of linemen on your list.
Greene was good but I dont think will make it. He seemed to be more of someone that fit the scheme and teammates more than made the defense in Pitt. Same with Tippett, though I was a little on the younger side when he played his best his name didnt jump out as much from the defense side of the ball in my mind. I think were other players that were just as gifted as they were. Though they made the all decade teams we know some of those votes are quite subjective.
I think Craig will have a hard time. Though I wouldnt be upset if he made it in. He really changed the way Rb's were thought of again. Really bringing them back to all around backs. By that I mean, could run, block, catch and even throw on occasion. In my book that should count for something when a player is instrumental in the evolution of a postion.
Any thoughts on someone like Johston making it in as a FB? If not will there ever be another FB inducted from the modern era??
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Yeah, I think most of the worthy "skill players" from the 1990s retirees are already in..But again, only 17 from the 90's? Yet 38+ from the 3 previous decades? I cant imagine the 90s will go down as being that under-represented. If not those 13 listed, who else? Less than 30 long term? I would be very surprised if it still like that 20 years from now...
47 from the 70s, yet another (Emmitt Thomas) selected as a Senior finalist...He would make 48 if he gets in..
Here are the other 1990's retirees on my radar as even remotely possible:
Albert Lewis Leslie O'Neal Michael Dean Perry Karl Mechlenburg Ricky Jackson Jay Hilgenberg Ray Donaldson Nate Newton Chris Hinton Ottis Anderson Deron Cherry Joey Browner Dennis Smith Tim McDonald Steve Tasker Steve Jordan Henry Ellard Sterling Sharpe
Pickings are pretty slim..I dont see anyone here I personally would put in over the initial 13 listed. Am I missing anyone?? If every single one of these guys + the first 13 listed + the 17 already in? You would end up with 48, which is one more than is ALREADY in the HOF that retired in the 1970's....
Were the players REALLY that much better in the 70's? In some cases yes, but as a whole? I don't think so...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Well I think in some cases you have to be carefull about comparing decades to decades. Of the guys that retired in the 70's and are in the HOF how many really played their best ball in the 60's and made it to the early 70's before retiring??
I know of these:
Bart Starr (retired 71) Forrest Gregg (retired 71) Gayle Sayers (retired 71) Ray Nitschke (retired 72) Lance Alworth (retired 72) Larry Wilson (retired 72) John Unitas (retired 73) Herb Adderly (retired 72) Willie Wood (retired 71) John Mackey (retired 72) Mike Ditka (retire 72)
In addition how bout these guys that retired in 2000 or 2001. But really played in the 90's.
Thruman Thomas Reggie White Michael Irvin Bruce Mathews Warren Moon Troy Aikman
I understand what you want to say by using retirement by decade but that just distorts some numbers. At least 11 of the players you counted to have retired within in the 70's, really belong in the group from the 60's. Many really just stuck it out too long.
It would be like including Barry Sanders as being part of the class from the 80's because he started playing in 89. When in all reality he is from the 90's. When you hear Bart Starr you think of the 60's not the 70's. Sure there are some players that doesnt hold up with. Say Marino/Elway/White and some day Favre. But most players can be connected with a decade that they played not retired.
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I dont think you missed any. And I agree most of these dont measure up either. Unless again you are talking linemen!! Which other than Mathews and Slatler there havent been any recent players added. What about some kickers, but then again some of them kick from the 80's almost into the 00's.
From this list I would say maybe out side shots for Hilgenberg, Mecklenberg and Sharpe (maybe a little bias here, but he was quite dominant until his neck injury). Netwon might be a senior guy down the road when people forget about some of the stuff he did after playing.
<< <i>Yeah, I think most of the worthy "skill players" from the 1990s retirees are already in..But again, only 17 from the 90's? Yet 38+ from the 3 previous decades? I cant imagine the 90s will go down as being that under-represented. If not those 13 listed, who else? Less than 30 long term? I would be very surprised if it still like that 20 years from now...
47 from the 70s, yet another (Emmitt Thomas) selected as a Senior finalist...He would make 48 if he gets in..
Here are the other 1990's retirees on my radar as even remotely possible:
Albert Lewis Leslie O'Neal Michael Dean Perry Karl Mechlenburg Ricky Jackson Jay Hilgenberg Ray Donaldson Nate Newton Chris Hinton Ottis Anderson Deron Cherry Joey Browner Dennis Smith Tim McDonald Steve Tasker Steve Jordan Henry Ellard Sterling Sharpe
Pickings are pretty slim..I dont see anyone here I personally would put in over the initial 13 listed. Am I missing anyone?? If every single one of these guys + the first 13 listed + the 17 already in? You would end up with 48, which is one more than is ALREADY in the HOF that retired in the 1970's....
Were the players REALLY that much better in the 70's? In some cases yes, but as a whole? I don't think so...
Jason >>
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<< <i>Well I think in some cases you have to be carefull about comparing decades to decades. Of the guys that retired in the 70's and are in the HOF how many really played their best ball in the 60's and made it to the early 70's before retiring??
I understand what you want to say by using retirement by decade but that just distorts some numbers. At least 11 of the players you counted to have retired within in the 70's, really belong in the group from the 60's. Many really just stuck it out too long.
It would be like including Barry Sanders as being part of the class from the 80's because he started playing in 89. When in all reality he is from the 90's. When you hear Bart Starr you think of the 60's not the 70's. Sure there are some players that doesnt hold up with. Say Marino/Elway/White and some day Favre. But most players can be connected with a decade that they played not retired. >>
Agreed, although my query was based on year of retirement, which came from looking at which years HOF voters had the toughest "First time eligible" HOFers. Many players played in multiple decades, so its hard to "assign" them to just one. But with retirement year, you have a cut and dry date that you can group by decade. I'll see if I can group together HOFers by year. And give the number of HOFers that were active players during any given year. I'm certain that the 90's is still going to be FAR LESS represented than the 60s-70s-80s. Which solidifies my initial point which was there are ALOT of 1990's players that will be inducted in the future.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ok, how about this. Here are the average number of ACTIVE future HOFers that played during each decade:
60's= averaged 59.2 HOFers playing in each and every season. Highest total being 1969 with 65 active future HOFers that year, and lowest was 1960 with 49.
70's= averaged 58.0 active HOFers per season..Peaked at 67 in 1971, and lowest was 49 in 1979.
80's= averaged 37.1 per season..High was 46 in 1981, low was 27 in 1989.
90's= averaged 15.8 future HOFers per season..Highest was 1990 with 25, lowest was 1999 with 8.
With 32 teams in the league, you've got to think we will see 35-50 HOFers per year in the 80s-90's down the road. You can look at our Future HOFer- Modern set and get an idea, but even using ALL of those guys, still way mis-represented so far.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
"Been accumulating these cards for about 6 months and the sub just popped. All are PSA 10 unless otherwise noted. I pulled most of these prices out of thin air, so some may seem a little high. If that's the case, pm me and I'm sure we can work something out. Just know that I spent hours upon hours opening cases and scouring commons bins looking for this stuff, so I'm not inclined to give anything away. I am willing to work out fair deals though. Let me know if you're interested in anything:
1990 Topps Tiffany Tony Tolbert- $120 (1 available) 1990 Topps Tiffany Ken Norton Jr.- $90 (1 available) 1990 Topps Tiffany Ken Norton Jr. PSA 9- $8 (1 available) 1990 Topps Tiffany Kelvin Martin- $90 (2 available) 1990 Topps Tiffany Kelvin Martin PSA 9- $8 SOLD 1990 Topps Tiffany Daryl Johnston PSA 9- $12 SOLD 1989 Score Supplemental Sterling Sharpe- $50 1989 Score Supplemental Bo Jackson- $65 1989 Score Supplemental Bo Jackson PSA 9- $8 (2 available) 1989 Score Supplemental Eric Allen- $75 1989 Score Supplemental Dermontti Dawson- $75 1989 Score Supplemental Dermontti Dawson PSA 9- $12 (2 available) 1989 Score Supplemental Chis Jacke PSA 9- $15 1989 Score Supplemental Louis Oliver PSA 9- $15 1989 Pro Set Nate Newton- $60 (1 available) 1989 Pro Set Nate Newton PSA 9- $8 (1 available) 1989 Pro Set Jay Novacek- $60 (1 available) 1989 Topps Traded Steve Tasker- $60 1989 Topps Traded Greg Lloyd PSA 9- $6 (1 available) 1990 Action Packed Leroy Butler PSA 9- $12 SOLD 1991 Pacific Larry Brown- $40 (2 available) 1991 Score Traded Erik Williams- $40 SOLD 1991 Score Traded Aeneas Williams- $40 SOLD 1992 Pacific Ben Coates- $40 1992 Topps Tony Mayberry- $35 1993 Bowman Eric Curry- $30 SOLD 1993 Bowman Willie Roaf- $250 1993 Bowman Willie Roaf PSA 9- $12 SOLD 1993 Bowman Will Shields- $30 1993 SP Lincoln Kennedy- $45 SOLD 1993 SP Licnoln Kennedy PSA 9- $8 SOLD 1993 SP Larry Centers- $45 SOLD 1993 SP Jason Elam PSA 9- $12 SOLD 1993 SP John Lynch PSA 9- $8 SOLD 1993 Ultra Leon Lett PSA 9- $8 1993 Wild Card Superchrome Rookies Michael Strahan PSA 9- $8 1994 Playoff Larry Allen PSA 9- $60 SOLD 1995 Bowman Eric Bjornsen- $30 SOLD 1995 Collector's Choice Update Darren Bennett- $170 1995 Collector's Choice Update Darren Bennett PSA 9- $25 1995 Finest Ruben Brown- $55 1995 SP Warren Sapp PSA 9- $8 SOLD 1995 SP Derrick Brooks PSA 9- $8 SOLD 1995 SP Wayne Chrebet PSA 9- $8 1996 Topps Willie Anderson PSA 9- $12 1997 Bowman's Best Danny Wuerffel- $40 (1 available) 2005 Topps Draft Picks Jason White- $45 SOLD
These numbers make it look likely that there were really more HOFers from the 60's than 70's. I am always skeptical about numbers like this and break downs of decades. It always seem like there are ways to make one point or another based on the numbers used. So is your number in the 90's based only on future HOFers?? So Aikman, Irvin, Mathews, White and Moon dont count in 99? Also based on our modern set, there are well over 25 future HOFers playing in 1999.
But I do agree that we will start seeing more players from the 80's and 90's. Not sure if they will eclipse other periods like the 60's though. Most of it has to do with the voting system. Since its a panel of writers from each town and that turns over with age we will start seeing less of the players from the 50's, 60's etc. I pretty much think its unlikely that anyone from before the 50's will be going in any time soon if ever for two reasons. The big one being the guys that know them arent voting anymore. Remember that each canidate is supported by members of the voting panel and give a talk to sway other voters. At least that is based on what I read from Cliff Christl, a voter/reporter from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. He retired this year from the newspaper and I think as such is no longer a voter. So as time passes there will not be many voters who remember even seeing any of these guys play. Strike two is that anyone before the 50's has had how long to be enshrined. If they havent by now why would that change all of a sudden. Even harder when people may not even have a clue as to who the player really is.
The bottom line is that players that retired in the early 70's have had almost 20 years to be elected. Some still have a chance on the senior list, but there would only be a handfull each that make it to the final voting. As much as I would love to see Kramer in the HOF (only from a packer bias, i never saw him play), lets face it he has had what almost 30 years to make it. If it takes that long I dont see how one really should make it. I know a lot of the early players it was tuff to get in as there were the all time greats that were getting in right off the bat and then you had a large amount that were playing in the 60's that were up right away as well.
<< <i>Ok, how about this. Here are the average number of ACTIVE future HOFers that played during each decade:
60's= averaged 59.2 HOFers playing in each and every season. Highest total being 1969 with 65 active future HOFers that year, and lowest was 1960 with 49.
70's= averaged 58.0 active HOFers per season..Peaked at 67 in 1971, and lowest was 49 in 1979.
80's= averaged 37.1 per season..High was 46 in 1981, low was 27 in 1989.
90's= averaged 15.8 future HOFers per season..Highest was 1990 with 25, lowest was 1999 with 8.
With 32 teams in the league, you've got to think we will see 35-50 HOFers per year in the 80s-90's down the road. You can look at our Future HOFer- Modern set and get an idea, but even using ALL of those guys, still way mis-represented so far.
Jason >>
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<< <i>These numbers make it look likely that there were really more HOFers from the 60's than 70's. I am always skeptical about numbers like this and break downs of decades. It always seem like there are ways to make one point or another based on the numbers used. So is your number in the 90's based only on future HOFers?? So Aikman, Irvin, Mathews, White and Moon dont count in 99? Also based on our modern set, there are well over 25 future HOFers playing in 1999. >>
Let me clarify..When I call them "future HOFers" I meant at the time they were playing they were future..But are NOW current HOFers. My numbers/count is based on players currently residing in the HOF ONLY. Aikman, Irvin, Matthews, White, and Moon all count towards 1999, along with Thurman Thomas, Dan Marino and Steve Young. There the 8 current HOFers who were active in 1999.
Someone would have to go through our Modern set and manually count up the years, I'll leave that for someone else..lol..Taking your 25 number, that puts us at 33 HOFers who were playing in 1999. But in 1971 there were 67? Even though there were fewer players and fewer teams? I don't buy it...
I stand behind my point that alot of the guys we see right now as borderline HOFers will end up getting in down the road. Especially with the HOF increasing the class size to maximum of 7 instead of 6 beginning in 2008.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
"With 32 teams in the league, you've got to think we will see 35-50 HOFers per year in the 80s-90's down the road. You can look at our Future HOFer- Modern set and get an idea, but even using ALL of those guys, still way mis-represented so far."
You think that since there are more teams now that there have to be more HOF players for each decade. Consider this. When the league was smaller there was a 12-17 round draft. That is almost twice as many picks. Plus with less teams each pick was higher. Now a superbowl champ is picking almost a thrid round draft pick from the early 60's draft today. In my opinon right now the league is some what watered down from an overall talent level. By this I mean by looking at the talent level at the bottom 1/4 of each roster.
Of course the 80's and 90's are underrepresented so far. Most of the stars from those years have only be elgible in the last 5 or so years. even less from the 90's. Shoot Emmitt and Rice still have what a year or two to wait. And maybe 6-8 years before Favre gets in. Those three are going to hold almost every offensive record in the NFL by the time the three are in. Then Sanders and Woodson, Bruce Smith and the others we think are locks. Before you know we will be at the numbers you are looking at without even going to the B list.
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"With 32 teams in the league, you've got to think we will see 35-50 HOFers per year in the 80s-90's down the road. You can look at our Future HOFer- Modern set and get an idea, but even using ALL of those guys, still way mis-represented so far." looking at without even going to the B list. >>
Consider this...32 teams, 512 games per year....In 1971, there were 26 teams playing a total of just 364 games. You have more players with more opportunities to excel. Stats are bigger, players are larger...Watered down? You had 67 HOF players on active rosters in 1971. 26 teams, thats an average of 2.57 HOFers PER team. In 2007, that would equate to 82 HOFers. They only thing watered down are the low end guys. The tops of the rosters have more available spots for premium players. Now its likely that "spreading" the wealthy has created the perception that guys aren't as great. While rosters have increased, the Pro Bowl slots and All-Pro selection teams have not. Those have become harder and I think that will lessen some players in voter eyes. Eventually, I think it will even out, and having 3-4 Pro Bowls in the 90's is going to be equal to 6-7 in the 70's...
Here's my challenge to you. Show me 50 HOFer (present or possible future) who were active during any year of the 1990's. You're going to be hard pressed coming up with them, and by the time you get down to 40-50 your going to start listing what most of us consider very borderline guys.
My entire point of the initial post was to say that based on the averages, MANY of the borderline guys like the first few I listed are going to end up in the HOF. We all know the Emmitt's and the Ric'e, etc, but you run out of those caliber guys real quick. Were all 67 HOFers active in 1971 Rice, Emmitt, Deion level players? No way...
Good arguments though. Thanks.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If you would have contiuned to the next sentence I said that the watered down effect happens at the lower 1/4 of the roster. From above post "In my opinon right now the league is some what watered down from an overall talent level. By this I mean by looking at the talent level at the bottom 1/4 of each roster. "
I dont disagree that it would be hard to get to 50 players. My opinon is that there wont be that many from the 90's. The 60's, which spilled over into the 70's, which you have been using for your calculations were very talented laden. I feel that the only way there are that many that get in from the 90's is if they put a lot of boderline players from the niners and cowboys in the HOF. Other wise in my humble opinon there wont be anywhere near 50 added from the 90's.
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<< <i>Anybody notice a second 1984 Dwight Stephenson rc was graded 10 last week?
That would look awful good in my 84 topps set >>
Listed on eBay tonight Joe. Good luck!
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i> I dont disagree that it would be hard to get to 50 players. My opinon is that there wont be that many from the 90's. The 60's, which spilled over into the 70's, which you have been using for your calculations were very talented laden. I feel that the only way there are that many that get in from the 90's is if they put a lot of boderline players from the niners and cowboys in the HOF. Other wise in my humble opinon there wont be anywhere near 50 added from the 90's. >>
Any idea what that is? I don't disagree with you that players were/are seen as "more talented" from the 60s and 70s? But if you watch any amount of game footage, for the most part you'll see that they were smaller, slower and ran less complicated offenses and defenses...There are exceptions (Jim Brown and Johnny Unitas come to mind) but when you are talking 60+ HOFer in the league then, yet only 30-40 in the 90's just doesnt compute.
Was Elvin Bethea REALLY that much better than say Richard Dent at playing D-Line? Was Bob Brown or Ron Yary that much better on the O-Line than Gary Zimmerman or Russ Grimm? There are quite a few borderline guys and/or guys that never would have made the HOF if it wasn't for garnering a bunch of Pro Bowls when the competition for Pro Bowls was much thinner.
Consider the1960's..You had between 12 and 16 teams in the NFL, yet you had THE SAME NUMBER of Pro Bowlers as you do now. So out of 16 starting QBs from the 1969 season, SIX of them made the Pro Bowl..Vs. now, you have 32 starting QBs and 6 of them made the Pro Bowl...In 1965, you had 14 NFL teams and 8 AFL Teams...So out of 66 starting LBs, 18 of them made a Pro Bowl...And make no mistake, its the Pro Bowls and All-Pro selections that push players to HOF status. Not to mention winnign Championships vs. a smaller crowd of teams in an era of no free agency..Teams like the Packers and Steelers could run the table for years with multiple HOF players.
I don't think there is a right or wrong here, but it would be a terrible travesty to see players from the 90's and 00's get snowballed because of the reasons mentioned above..When in reality if they had played during the 60's or 70's they would be sure fire HOFers.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Or are some of those boderline players in the HOF to help some other teams be more represented than they otherwise would be? Its just a question. When I look at the Packers and Bears (the two teams with the most players in the HOF) I dont see too many border line players from those teams. Yet Kramer cant make it in?? There still is the human factor to the induction process. Reporters that may have disliked certain players still have a shot at knock them well after they are retired or pushing for their selections. Dont forget that there could be some deals made on the sides too. "Alright I will vote for Yary if you vote for Bethea down the road."
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<< <i>Or are some of those boderline players in the HOF to help some other teams be more represented than they otherwise would be? Its just a question. When I look at the Packers and Bears (the two teams with the most players in the HOF) I dont see too many border line players from those teams. Yet Kramer cant make it in?? There still is the human factor to the induction process. Reporters that may have disliked certain players still have a shot at knock them well after they are retired or pushing for their selections. Dont forget that there could be some deals made on the sides too. "Alright I will vote for Yary if you vote for Bethea down the road." >>
Agree 100%...Same can be said for players of the 90's and the present...When these guys come up for election (Art Monk is a PRIME example) they run into the same issues as players from the 60s and 70s did in the process. With 2 Senior candidates now, we are going to continue to see the HOF count of players from the 60s and 70s rise. Those guys aren't done going in yet. 20 years from now, the same thing is going to happen to the 90's players. Like I said, as time passes and the pool of qualified 60s and 70s guys goes nil, its the borderline 80's/90's guys who will benefit. I would be shocked if we don't see 35-50 players from the 90's era in the HOF one day. Based on the averages it's the only logical conclusion.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
a player like Green is my argument for the fault in using the numbers the way jason wants too, to support his argument that there are almost 20 hidden HOFers in the 90's.
i understand that some of these guys are bigger and faster. but then again what does a 1000 rushing season mean any more. not much. its like hitting 40 HRs in baseball now. samething with TD passes. a great year for a qb has to be almost 35 TD passes. like all sports games and players change. so do the stats. a 1000 yard season in a 12 game season is more impressive than just getting to that number in a 16 game season. i think we will also see the life of these players drop as well, from both injury and just making so much money that they dont need to stick around as long. there will always be exceptions, ala Green, Favre.
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a player like Green is my argument for the fault in using the numbers the way jason wants too, to support his argument that there are almost 20 hidden HOFers in the 90's.
>>
Here's my challenge to you. Show me 50 HOFer (present or possible future) who were active during any year of the 1990's. You're going to be hard pressed coming up with them, and by the time you get down to 40-50 your going to start listing what most of us consider very borderline guys.
Show me the money and I will concede your point...lol
I just don't see how there could have been SO many HOFers playing the game in the 60s-70s, and so few playing in the 90s. Give me 50 ACTIVE future possible HOFers from any year in the 90s (and yes Darrell Green would count towards ALOT of years..lol). If you can swing that we will have the answer to the question. Either the list will contain all HOF lock kinda guys, or it will contain a bunch of borderline guys as I stated it will.
We all the know the stats change, but the Pro Bowls, All-Pro selections don't. Any when you are talking non-skill players who don't pass, run or catch the ball, they don't have any stats to go by.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
There are already 20 players in the HOF that played in the 90's. Add the players we have already in the Future HOF set that played in the 90's and we are at roughly 45. So unless there are borderline players in the future HOF set, which there probably are as there are 3 kickers but also not as many O-line men.
Jay
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Current HOFers that played into the 90's Montana Lofton Munoz LT Allen Elway Long Marino Dickerson Slater Kelly Young White Moon Munchak Irvin Matthews T Thomas B Sanders Aikman Total=20
From the Future HOF set G Anderson (K) M Andersen (K) D Green Rice A Reed B Smith Zimmerman McDaniel C Carter Woodson T Brown D Sanders D Thomas S At-water Dawson Butler Sh Sharpe Seau E Smith Randle A Williams Favre J. Smith Roaf Bettis Elam Shields Lynch Strahan Bruce L Allen Faulk C Martin D Brooks T Davis R Lewis Ogden M Harrison Z Thomas Vinatieri (K) Pace Gonzalez P Manning Holt Bailey Total=45
Now that actually equals 65.
So now Jason, where do all the borderline players that you are seeing coming from??????
Edited to add: opps.
plus R Moss. with the numbers he has already he might just jump onto the list again.
so we havent even gotten to your list of borderliners yet.
Edit #2 Opps #2
I missed two HOFs. M Singletary D Hampton
both barely played into the 90's
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You are just adding up every player that played during the 1990's...I'm talking SPECIFIC years, as some of those guys played early 90's, some played in the late 90's, not all 65 played every season. I knew your numbers were off a bit, so I went and added all the guys from the modern set to my database. Here's what I got:
So , I guess you can get up to about 50 per season if every single guy on the modern set actually gets in. There are a few others who could possible be added to the set that would give some additional number to the late 90's (Moss is a good example).
This still doesnt quite explain the difference between number of players from the 60's and 70's. The ONLY YEARS in the 60's and 70's that had fewer HOFers than then 90's best year of 1997 (53) is 1960 (49), 1978 (51) and 1979 (49). Your average per year for the 90's still comes out to just 49.5. Not as extreme as I first expected, but still 10 players less than the 60's, and 9 players less than the 70's..PER YEAR AVERAGE...
To match 60's and 70's output you'll still need to find 10 more players PER SEASON in the 1990's...Which takes you back to my initial list..Cut off the bottom 3, and there you go.lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
You are a hard person to please or your question/challenge changes every time. This was your question/challenge.
"Here's my challenge to you. Show me 50 HOFer (present or possible future) who were active during any year of the 1990's. You're going to be hard pressed coming up with them, and by the time you get down to 40-50 your going to start listing what most of us consider very borderline guys."
So I gave you a list of over 60 players present or possible future HOFers that were active during any year of the 1990's. There was nothing in your challenge that said that the 50 had to be active in a single season. I think I have shown that there are plenty to chose from with out having to "reach" and still be in line with almost all the other decades.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
You are just adding up every player that played during the 1990's...I'm talking SPECIFIC years, as some of those guys played early 90's, some played in the late 90's, not all 65 played every season. I knew your numbers were off a bit, so I went and added all the guys from the modern set to my database. Here's what I got:
So , I guess you can get up to about 50 per season if every single guy on the modern set actually gets in. There are a few others who could possible be added to the set that would give some additional number to the late 90's (Moss is a good example).
This still doesnt quite explain the difference between number of players from the 60's and 70's. The ONLY YEARS in the 60's and 70's that had fewer HOFers than then 90's best year of 1997 (53) is 1960 (49), 1978 (51) and 1979 (49). Your average per year for the 90's still comes out to just 49.5. Not as extreme as I first expected, but still 10 players less than the 60's, and 9 players less than the 70's..PER YEAR AVERAGE...
To match 60's and 70's output you'll still need to find 10 more players PER SEASON in the 1990's...Which takes you back to my initial list..Cut off the bottom 3, and there you go.lol
Jason >>
so where is my math off. i think i added them up pretty close.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
Well, you just added every player that played in the 1990's and came up with 65..If I did that for the 60's, it would probably be 100. You have to break it down BY YEAR, and as you can see, doing so the highest number of HOF/Future HOF players in any given year was actually 53 in 1997.
Essentially, this splits our debate down the middle..You estimated 65, I was estimating around 35, the actual number is 49-50 on average for the 1990's. My point remains the same, although not quite as strong. And that is that some of those "borderline" HOFers are going to end up in the HOF, simply based on the averages that the 60s and 70s have given us. I don;t think the talent base is any worse, but rather the 90's are going to catch up to the averages using those borderline players.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
So am I. As the "rules" of this debate seem change with each post. Every other post until now you said everything was by decade. Now all of sudden you want by years. As for me I am done with this debate.
You asked me to give you the names of 50+ HOFers (future or current) that played in the 1990's. You have never said that it needed to be 50 every year until your last post. I think that I provided you with the answer that to challenge that you posed to me twice. My number was not an estimate but was based on players that played in the 90's who are either in the HOF already or are on our list of "Future Modern HOFers".
I will stick by my list and say that there arent that many borderline players that will be needed from the 90's. Sure there might be some, but nowhere near the number your envison in your arguement.
This debate wont be decided by any of us anyway. We will need to wait what almost 30 years until its decided.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
Sorry guys if I confused you..I never changed anything...Not one solitary thing..I guess "PER SEASON" or "EACH AND EVERY SEASON" mean different things to some people...When I gave numbers per decade it was AVERAGE based on number of players in EACH YEAR. You can go back and re-read if you need to. Same with the challenge, you read what you wanted to read, not what I posted. I asked for ONE YEAR not every guy from the 90's. I can lead the horse to water, but can't make it drink.
Its really not complicated. I'm done with it as well..If no one "gets" what I'm trying to say I'll stop wasting time on it. No one else really seems interested anyway.
Thought I would try to infuse a little more football debate into the post which is what it used to be mostly about rather than an extention of the buy/sell/trade board.
Best of luck, Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I actually enjoyed reading Jasons and Jays posts. An impassioned debate with both guys having solid arguments without the name calling. Regardless of how anyone else thinks or feels, that's the way these boards should be. Although I didn't post during the deabte, I know I've learned a lot from the last 2 pages and isn't that what this thread/board is about. Good job guys.
<< <i>Thanks Frank. And thanks Jason for returning us to more debate rather than just a buy sell thread. It was fun. >>
Agreed...I always like a spirited debate, especially with someone who can present a good opposing argument. In the end, it ended up being almost right down the middle of each point.
My hobby before cards was NFL history, although I now spend more time on the cards than the history..lol...Every once and awhile its good to put my nose back in the books and learn a little bit more about something I enjoy learning..This was honestly an approach I had never taken. I didn't think the differences would be so great. Emmitt Thomas will likely add his name to the list of 60's-70's guys in February. Plus, there are at least 5-10 more Seniors I think SHOULD, and likely will be in the HOF.
If only there was a foolproof formula for figuring out who the next HOF class would be each year, I would be a rich man..lol..But with the voters, you just never know what your going to get (aka Marshall Goldberg).
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>John Randle is considered a futer HOFer? Really? >>
Not to me.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Guys, Here is why I'm asking about the Brown. I just picked this up and am excited about how much it may be worth. Currently there are 12 PSA 8's with no 9's. THere is one SGC 88 (8), and now this SGC 92. If I remember correctly, Jason hit a BIN on a PSA 8 for $500. It is a one of one and the highest graded Brown in exsistance. I'm not sure what I want to do with it. I could crack it and submit to psa hoping for the first 9..... Or sell as is. Not sure if the diamond cut would hold it back. The corners as as strong as I've seen..I am not looking to keep this and will be taking offers if anyone is interested. What would you guys do??? What's it worth??
Beautiful card Dave. I do think the tilt would keep it from grading a 9, but I see no problem with it landing in a PSA 8 holder.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Dave, I would say it would likely sell for $350-$400 as an SGC card. If you can somehow cross it to a PSA 9 holder you'd be looking at 4-digits EASY. Those HOF RC collector's can get crazy..lol
John Randle was mentioned above. While I am fully aware of his shortcomings as a run stopper, he was elected to 7 Pro Bowls AND chosen a 6-time 1st Team All-Pro by many of the same voters on the HOF committee. Only 5 other DT's in the history of the league were chosen 6+ times as a 1st team All-Pro. They were:
Randy White- 8 times Bob Lilly- 7 times Merlin Olsen- 6 times Leo Nomellini- 6 times Alan Page- 6 times
4 of the 5 above were FIRST BALLOT HOFers, while Alan Page got in on his 2nd try. I don't think Randle will get in that easily, because if I were ranking the 6 DTs above, he would obviously be #6...Just wasn't in that class... BUT, I think he is going to get in. There are ZERO other worthy DT modern candidates...The next guy who will even come close is Warren Sapp. Randle was THE dominant DT of his day. He was a disrupter who wasn't tasked with being a run stuffer. His job was to penetrate the line and even with his small size, he did that better than any DT in the 80's or 90's...
At the very least, he is a serious candidate and will be at minimum a semi-finalist (Top 25) in his first year (2009). Not sure, based on his resume, why anyone would totally disregard him as a candidate.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
So what would you guys do? List it as SGC as highest ever graded, or resub into PSA 8 and sell ( and take an outside shot of getting a 9)... I understand most of us football HOF RC nuts are all PSA, but.........you never know..
If you're in no rush to get rid of it, Dave, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try to cross it to a 9. I'd put the odds at maybe 75/25 against the cross, but no harm in trying. If that doesn't work, throw it up on eBay as "highest graded" with a high reserve. You could even do that first. And if all else fails, I'd get it into a PSA 8 holder and put it on eBay for 10 days starting on a Thursday. It's funny how things like this go. The actual card is obviously not going to change if it switches holders. But the clothes (case) that it's wearing would.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>If you're in no rush to get rid of it, Dave, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try to cross it to a 9. I'd put the odds at maybe 75/25 against the cross, but no harm in trying. If that doesn't work, throw it up on eBay as "highest graded" with a high reserve. You could even do that first. And if all else fails, I'd get it into a PSA 8 holder and put it on eBay for 10 days starting on a Thursday. It's funny how things like this go. The actual card is obviously not going to change if it switches holders. But the clothes (case) that it's wearing would. >>
I would concur with this. Give it a shot at a crossover. If it were me, I would actually try to crack and submit. I think the chance of it coming back a 7 is lower than the odds of it bumping to a PSA 9. It looks like a safe bet to at least get an 8 back, which would net you $400-$600 on ebay. As far as putting it on ebay as an SGC, there is no chance you will get the money a PSA 9 will bring, but it is possible you could pull more than a PSA 8. I'm a gambling man myself, so personally I would go for the gold, the 1/1 PSA 9 and if it comes back an 8 (after a couple of tries..) then you sell for $400-$600 and probably still make money on it. I'm guessing you "grabbed" this at a pretty deep discount simply because no one is collecting the NFL HOF SGC Registry set..lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ive been curious how THE brand of card for rookies is chosen. I know the criteria for what is not allowed, autos, less than 999 produced, no spin offs etc. For example
2001 topps chrome refractor is THE Rc for Tomlinson and chad johnson, so it makes sense that like Steve Smiths RC would be a topps refractor. Someone wise to the ways of the world told me (llate into the night) that SP was not chosen that year because its an autographed version, which makes sense, but was the topps refractor chosen of the plain old topps because the Beckett value was higher?
So for 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005, are the official RC's back to SP?
Take Tony Romo for example, what will be his official RC ,and how, and who decides its that, other than just straight up Beckett Value.
What if alot of collectors go after a Topps refractor card because Beckett rates it the most valuable, then as that player comes closer to being inducted into a WR or RB set, lets say his Bowman chrome increases in value because everyone is scrambling to get one. Does it become a race to the finish, which card is worth more when that player gets the minimum stats required for induction into that set?
Could someone please tell me which brand of card we are leaning to for each year after 2001
Edited to add: Dave, send that Brown in on a 5 day special, if it comes back an 8, its worth more than an SGC 92 IMO, if it comes back a 9, well, thats why they call it gambling
<< <i>Ive been curious how THE brand of card for rookies is chosen. I know the criteria for what is not allowed, autos, less than 999 produced, no spin offs etc. For example
Could someone please tell me which brand of card we are leaning to for each year after 2001
joe >>
It is based on most popular/most valuable. Not necessarily strictly Beckett, but yes Beckett is used in cases of low dollar raw cards (1994 Larry Allen is prime example). The theory being that the most valuble and most popluar card are one in the same. The Law of Supply and Demand tells you that the most expensive card IS the most popular. Not sure what other method you would use to determine popularity other than a card people will pay more for. Some cards are very close (1995 Terrell Davis SP and Select Cert.) and in those cases PSA will send a poll to collector's of whatever set its being added to to ask which is preferred. The Super Bowl MVP set vs. the Future- Modern HOF RC set is the precedent. When the Super Bowl MVP set was created in circa 2003, the 1995 Select Certifed was the most popular/valuable. SMR said so, Beckett said so, and ebay sales said so. Fast forward to 2007, the Select Certified turned out to be WAY EASY to obtain in high grade and it drove down the value. By 2007, The SMR and Beckett showed either the SP being wirth more, at worst the same amount. On ebay, the SP was selling a little higher in PSA 9 and much higher in PSA 10. So we voted here on the boards prior to loading the set, and the majority wanted the SP and not the Select Certified. That doesn't mean someone couldn't request a change to Select, and at that point we would all get a poll and that would decide any changes.
To answer the 2nd question, I attempted to research 2001 and later about 12-18 months ago. Its almost impossible. So many card are either auto'd, or individually numbered less than 999, or jersey cards, parallels, etc. I gave up. Even in 2001, not EVERY Sp Authentic rookie was an auto/jersey/game used card. There are exceptions to almost every player, so its not as simple as saying 2001 every "best rookie" is Topps Chrome, or 2003, every best rookie is SP Authentic. Its based on value which is driven by demand and some guys card will be SP and other guys Topps Chrome and other guys something else.
Eventually someone is going to have to dig deep into each of the hundreds of card issues from those years and figure out which cards qualify and which do not. And that isn't something I will be volunteering to do...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Chad Johnson is WELL on his way to the 800-12,000 club. In his 7th season he is currently at 491 catches, 7,367 yds. The only other 2001 to present rookie on that pace is Anquan Boldin. 364 catches, 4,891 yds in his 5th NFL season.
Steve Smith is well behind pace. Based on his injury history, I would say he's a longshot. In his 7th season he is at 360 catches, 5,206 yds. He wasn't a starter in his rookie season and missed most of '04 with injury. Only twice has he played a full 16 game season. Not impossible, but he'll probably have to have a longer than usual career to get to those numbers.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Dave, I cracked my SGC 88 Nobis and SGC 92 Lee Roy Jordan. I used a small screwdriver along the sides. Put the blade in the crack and twist, keep doing this working along the border. no problems On the bad side both my cards came up 7's, even the SGC 92 of course I will crack and resubmit. Vince
Comments
I would have to agree with the names you suggest. All are worthy of consideration. I wouldnt be surprised to see more of the linemen from that group get in than some of the skill players. My reasoning is that many of those skill players while good, were more than overshadowed by the likes of Payton, Smith, Sanders, Rice etc. Though most of the names are of linemen on your list.
Greene was good but I dont think will make it. He seemed to be more of someone that fit the scheme and teammates more than made the defense in Pitt. Same with Tippett, though I was a little on the younger side when he played his best his name didnt jump out as much from the defense side of the ball in my mind. I think were other players that were just as gifted as they were. Though they made the all decade teams we know some of those votes are quite subjective.
I think Craig will have a hard time. Though I wouldnt be upset if he made it in. He really changed the way Rb's were thought of again. Really bringing them back to all around backs. By that I mean, could run, block, catch and even throw on occasion. In my book that should count for something when a player is instrumental in the evolution of a postion.
Any thoughts on someone like Johston making it in as a FB? If not will there ever be another FB inducted from the modern era??
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
47 from the 70s, yet another (Emmitt Thomas) selected as a Senior finalist...He would make 48 if he gets in..
Here are the other 1990's retirees on my radar as even remotely possible:
Albert Lewis
Leslie O'Neal
Michael Dean Perry
Karl Mechlenburg
Ricky Jackson
Jay Hilgenberg
Ray Donaldson
Nate Newton
Chris Hinton
Ottis Anderson
Deron Cherry
Joey Browner
Dennis Smith
Tim McDonald
Steve Tasker
Steve Jordan
Henry Ellard
Sterling Sharpe
Pickings are pretty slim..I dont see anyone here I personally would put in over the initial 13 listed. Am I missing anyone?? If every single one of these guys + the first 13 listed + the 17 already in? You would end up with 48, which is one more than is ALREADY in the HOF that retired in the 1970's....
Were the players REALLY that much better in the 70's? In some cases yes, but as a whole? I don't think so...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I know of these:
Bart Starr (retired 71)
Forrest Gregg (retired 71)
Gayle Sayers (retired 71)
Ray Nitschke (retired 72)
Lance Alworth (retired 72)
Larry Wilson (retired 72)
John Unitas (retired 73)
Herb Adderly (retired 72)
Willie Wood (retired 71)
John Mackey (retired 72)
Mike Ditka (retire 72)
In addition how bout these guys that retired in 2000 or 2001. But really played in the 90's.
Thruman Thomas
Reggie White
Michael Irvin
Bruce Mathews
Warren Moon
Troy Aikman
I understand what you want to say by using retirement by decade but that just distorts some numbers. At least 11 of the players you counted to have retired within in the 70's, really belong in the group from the 60's. Many really just stuck it out too long.
It would be like including Barry Sanders as being part of the class from the 80's because he started playing in 89. When in all reality he is from the 90's. When you hear Bart Starr you think of the 60's not the 70's. Sure there are some players that doesnt hold up with. Say Marino/Elway/White and some day Favre. But most players can be connected with a decade that they played not retired.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
From this list I would say maybe out side shots for Hilgenberg, Mecklenberg and Sharpe (maybe a little bias here, but he was quite dominant until his neck injury). Netwon might be a senior guy down the road when people forget about some of the stuff he did after playing.
<< <i>Yeah, I think most of the worthy "skill players" from the 1990s retirees are already in..But again, only 17 from the 90's? Yet 38+ from the 3 previous decades? I cant imagine the 90s will go down as being that under-represented. If not those 13 listed, who else? Less than 30 long term? I would be very surprised if it still like that 20 years from now...
47 from the 70s, yet another (Emmitt Thomas) selected as a Senior finalist...He would make 48 if he gets in..
Here are the other 1990's retirees on my radar as even remotely possible:
Albert Lewis
Leslie O'Neal
Michael Dean Perry
Karl Mechlenburg
Ricky Jackson
Jay Hilgenberg
Ray Donaldson
Nate Newton
Chris Hinton
Ottis Anderson
Deron Cherry
Joey Browner
Dennis Smith
Tim McDonald
Steve Tasker
Steve Jordan
Henry Ellard
Sterling Sharpe
Pickings are pretty slim..I dont see anyone here I personally would put in over the initial 13 listed. Am I missing anyone?? If every single one of these guys + the first 13 listed + the 17 already in? You would end up with 48, which is one more than is ALREADY in the HOF that retired in the 1970's....
Were the players REALLY that much better in the 70's? In some cases yes, but as a whole? I don't think so...
Jason >>
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>Well I think in some cases you have to be carefull about comparing decades to decades. Of the guys that retired in the 70's and are in the HOF how many really played their best ball in the 60's and made it to the early 70's before retiring??
I understand what you want to say by using retirement by decade but that just distorts some numbers. At least 11 of the players you counted to have retired within in the 70's, really belong in the group from the 60's. Many really just stuck it out too long.
It would be like including Barry Sanders as being part of the class from the 80's because he started playing in 89. When in all reality he is from the 90's. When you hear Bart Starr you think of the 60's not the 70's. Sure there are some players that doesnt hold up with. Say Marino/Elway/White and some day Favre. But most players can be connected with a decade that they played not retired. >>
Agreed, although my query was based on year of retirement, which came from looking at which years HOF voters had the toughest "First time eligible" HOFers. Many players played in multiple decades, so its hard to "assign" them to just one. But with retirement year, you have a cut and dry date that you can group by decade. I'll see if I can group together HOFers by year. And give the number of HOFers that were active players during any given year. I'm certain that the 90's is still going to be FAR LESS represented than the 60s-70s-80s. Which solidifies my initial point which was there are ALOT of 1990's players that will be inducted in the future.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
60's= averaged 59.2 HOFers playing in each and every season. Highest total being 1969 with 65 active future HOFers that year, and lowest was 1960 with 49.
70's= averaged 58.0 active HOFers per season..Peaked at 67 in 1971, and lowest was 49 in 1979.
80's= averaged 37.1 per season..High was 46 in 1981, low was 27 in 1989.
90's= averaged 15.8 future HOFers per season..Highest was 1990 with 25, lowest was 1999 with 8.
With 32 teams in the league, you've got to think we will see 35-50 HOFers per year in the 80s-90's down the road. You can look at our Future HOFer- Modern set and get an idea, but even using ALL of those guys, still way mis-represented so far.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
"Been accumulating these cards for about 6 months and the sub just popped. All are PSA 10 unless otherwise noted. I pulled most of these prices out of thin air, so some may seem a little high. If that's the case, pm me and I'm sure we can work something out. Just know that I spent hours upon hours opening cases and scouring commons bins looking for this stuff, so I'm not inclined to give anything away. I am willing to work out fair deals though. Let me know if you're interested in anything:
1990 Topps Tiffany Tony Tolbert- $120 (1 available)
1990 Topps Tiffany Ken Norton Jr.- $90 (1 available)
1990 Topps Tiffany Ken Norton Jr. PSA 9- $8 (1 available)
1990 Topps Tiffany Kelvin Martin- $90 (2 available)
1990 Topps Tiffany Kelvin Martin PSA 9- $8 SOLD
1990 Topps Tiffany Daryl Johnston PSA 9- $12 SOLD
1989 Score Supplemental Sterling Sharpe- $50
1989 Score Supplemental Bo Jackson- $65
1989 Score Supplemental Bo Jackson PSA 9- $8 (2 available)
1989 Score Supplemental Eric Allen- $75
1989 Score Supplemental Dermontti Dawson- $75
1989 Score Supplemental Dermontti Dawson PSA 9- $12 (2 available)
1989 Score Supplemental Chis Jacke PSA 9- $15
1989 Score Supplemental Louis Oliver PSA 9- $15
1989 Pro Set Nate Newton- $60 (1 available)
1989 Pro Set Nate Newton PSA 9- $8 (1 available)
1989 Pro Set Jay Novacek- $60 (1 available)
1989 Topps Traded Steve Tasker- $60
1989 Topps Traded Greg Lloyd PSA 9- $6 (1 available)
1990 Action Packed Leroy Butler PSA 9- $12 SOLD
1991 Pacific Larry Brown- $40 (2 available)
1991 Score Traded Erik Williams- $40 SOLD
1991 Score Traded Aeneas Williams- $40 SOLD
1992 Pacific Ben Coates- $40
1992 Topps Tony Mayberry- $35
1993 Bowman Eric Curry- $30 SOLD
1993 Bowman Willie Roaf- $250
1993 Bowman Willie Roaf PSA 9- $12 SOLD
1993 Bowman Will Shields- $30
1993 SP Lincoln Kennedy- $45 SOLD
1993 SP Licnoln Kennedy PSA 9- $8 SOLD
1993 SP Larry Centers- $45 SOLD
1993 SP Jason Elam PSA 9- $12 SOLD
1993 SP John Lynch PSA 9- $8 SOLD
1993 Ultra Leon Lett PSA 9- $8
1993 Wild Card Superchrome Rookies Michael Strahan PSA 9- $8
1994 Playoff Larry Allen PSA 9- $60 SOLD
1995 Bowman Eric Bjornsen- $30 SOLD
1995 Collector's Choice Update Darren Bennett- $170
1995 Collector's Choice Update Darren Bennett PSA 9- $25
1995 Finest Ruben Brown- $55
1995 SP Warren Sapp PSA 9- $8 SOLD
1995 SP Derrick Brooks PSA 9- $8 SOLD
1995 SP Wayne Chrebet PSA 9- $8
1996 Topps Willie Anderson PSA 9- $12
1997 Bowman's Best Danny Wuerffel- $40 (1 available)
2005 Topps Draft Picks Jason White- $45 SOLD
Lee"
But I do agree that we will start seeing more players from the 80's and 90's. Not sure if they will eclipse other periods like the 60's though. Most of it has to do with the voting system. Since its a panel of writers from each town and that turns over with age we will start seeing less of the players from the 50's, 60's etc. I pretty much think its unlikely that anyone from before the 50's will be going in any time soon if ever for two reasons. The big one being the guys that know them arent voting anymore. Remember that each canidate is supported by members of the voting panel and give a talk to sway other voters. At least that is based on what I read from Cliff Christl, a voter/reporter from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. He retired this year from the newspaper and I think as such is no longer a voter. So as time passes there will not be many voters who remember even seeing any of these guys play. Strike two is that anyone before the 50's has had how long to be enshrined. If they havent by now why would that change all of a sudden. Even harder when people may not even have a clue as to who the player really is.
The bottom line is that players that retired in the early 70's have had almost 20 years to be elected. Some still have a chance on the senior list, but there would only be a handfull each that make it to the final voting. As much as I would love to see Kramer in the HOF (only from a packer bias, i never saw him play), lets face it he has had what almost 30 years to make it. If it takes that long I dont see how one really should make it. I know a lot of the early players it was tuff to get in as there were the all time greats that were getting in right off the bat and then you had a large amount that were playing in the 60's that were up right away as well.
<< <i>Ok, how about this. Here are the average number of ACTIVE future HOFers that played during each decade:
60's= averaged 59.2 HOFers playing in each and every season. Highest total being 1969 with 65 active future HOFers that year, and lowest was 1960 with 49.
70's= averaged 58.0 active HOFers per season..Peaked at 67 in 1971, and lowest was 49 in 1979.
80's= averaged 37.1 per season..High was 46 in 1981, low was 27 in 1989.
90's= averaged 15.8 future HOFers per season..Highest was 1990 with 25, lowest was 1999 with 8.
With 32 teams in the league, you've got to think we will see 35-50 HOFers per year in the 80s-90's down the road. You can look at our Future HOFer- Modern set and get an idea, but even using ALL of those guys, still way mis-represented so far.
Jason >>
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
1993 Bowman Willie Roaf PSA 9- $12 (2 available)
1993 SP John Lynch PSA 9- $8 (2 available
1994 Playoff Larry Allen PSA 9- $60
1995 SP Derrick Brooks PSA 9- $8 (2 available)
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>These numbers make it look likely that there were really more HOFers from the 60's than 70's. I am always skeptical about numbers like this and break downs of decades. It always seem like there are ways to make one point or another based on the numbers used. So is your number in the 90's based only on future HOFers?? So Aikman, Irvin, Mathews, White and Moon dont count in 99? Also based on our modern set, there are well over 25 future HOFers playing in 1999.
>>
Let me clarify..When I call them "future HOFers" I meant at the time they were playing they were future..But are NOW current HOFers. My numbers/count is based on players currently residing in the HOF ONLY. Aikman, Irvin, Matthews, White, and Moon all count towards 1999, along with Thurman Thomas, Dan Marino and Steve Young. There the 8 current HOFers who were active in 1999.
Someone would have to go through our Modern set and manually count up the years, I'll leave that for someone else..lol..Taking your 25 number, that puts us at 33 HOFers who were playing in 1999. But in 1971 there were 67? Even though there were fewer players and fewer teams? I don't buy it...
I stand behind my point that alot of the guys we see right now as borderline HOFers will end up getting in down the road. Especially with the HOF increasing the class size to maximum of 7 instead of 6 beginning in 2008.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I dont follow this logic.
"With 32 teams in the league, you've got to think we will see 35-50 HOFers per year in the 80s-90's down the road. You can look at our Future HOFer- Modern set and get an idea, but even using ALL of those guys, still way mis-represented so far."
You think that since there are more teams now that there have to be more HOF players for each decade. Consider this. When the league was smaller there was a 12-17 round draft. That is almost twice as many picks. Plus with less teams each pick was higher. Now a superbowl champ is picking almost a thrid round draft pick from the early 60's draft today. In my opinon right now the league is some what watered down from an overall talent level. By this I mean by looking at the talent level at the bottom 1/4 of each roster.
Of course the 80's and 90's are underrepresented so far. Most of the stars from those years have only be elgible in the last 5 or so years. even less from the 90's. Shoot Emmitt and Rice still have what a year or two to wait. And maybe 6-8 years before Favre gets in. Those three are going to hold almost every offensive record in the NFL by the time the three are in. Then Sanders and Woodson, Bruce Smith and the others we think are locks. Before you know we will be at the numbers you are looking at without even going to the B list.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>jason,
I dont follow this logic.
"With 32 teams in the league, you've got to think we will see 35-50 HOFers per year in the 80s-90's down the road. You can look at our Future HOFer- Modern set and get an idea, but even using ALL of those guys, still way mis-represented so far."
looking at without even going to the B list. >>
Consider this...32 teams, 512 games per year....In 1971, there were 26 teams playing a total of just 364 games. You have more players with more opportunities to excel. Stats are bigger, players are larger...Watered down? You had 67 HOF players on active rosters in 1971. 26 teams, thats an average of 2.57 HOFers PER team. In 2007, that would equate to 82 HOFers. They only thing watered down are the low end guys. The tops of the rosters have more available spots for premium players. Now its likely that "spreading" the wealthy has created the perception that guys aren't as great. While rosters have increased, the Pro Bowl slots and All-Pro selection teams have not. Those have become harder and I think that will lessen some players in voter eyes. Eventually, I think it will even out, and having 3-4 Pro Bowls in the 90's is going to be equal to 6-7 in the 70's...
Here's my challenge to you. Show me 50 HOFer (present or possible future) who were active during any year of the 1990's. You're going to be hard pressed coming up with them, and by the time you get down to 40-50 your going to start listing what most of us consider very borderline guys.
My entire point of the initial post was to say that based on the averages, MANY of the borderline guys like the first few I listed are going to end up in the HOF. We all know the Emmitt's and the Ric'e, etc, but you run out of those caliber guys real quick. Were all 67 HOFers active in 1971 Rice, Emmitt, Deion level players? No way...
Good arguments though. Thanks.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I dont disagree that it would be hard to get to 50 players. My opinon is that there wont be that many from the 90's. The 60's, which spilled over into the 70's, which you have been using for your calculations were very talented laden. I feel that the only way there are that many that get in from the 90's is if they put a lot of boderline players from the niners and cowboys in the HOF. Other wise in my humble opinon there wont be anywhere near 50 added from the 90's.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>Anybody notice a second 1984 Dwight Stephenson rc was graded 10 last week?
That would look awful good in my 84 topps set >>
Listed on eBay tonight Joe. Good luck!
<< <i>
I dont disagree that it would be hard to get to 50 players. My opinon is that there wont be that many from the 90's. The 60's, which spilled over into the 70's, which you have been using for your calculations were very talented laden. I feel that the only way there are that many that get in from the 90's is if they put a lot of boderline players from the niners and cowboys in the HOF. Other wise in my humble opinon there wont be anywhere near 50 added from the 90's. >>
Any idea what that is? I don't disagree with you that players were/are seen as "more talented" from the 60s and 70s? But if you watch any amount of game footage, for the most part you'll see that they were smaller, slower and ran less complicated offenses and defenses...There are exceptions (Jim Brown and Johnny Unitas come to mind) but when you are talking 60+ HOFer in the league then, yet only 30-40 in the 90's just doesnt compute.
Was Elvin Bethea REALLY that much better than say Richard Dent at playing D-Line? Was Bob Brown or Ron Yary that much better on the O-Line than Gary Zimmerman or Russ Grimm? There are quite a few borderline guys and/or guys that never would have made the HOF if it wasn't for garnering a bunch of Pro Bowls when the competition for Pro Bowls was much thinner.
Consider the1960's..You had between 12 and 16 teams in the NFL, yet you had THE SAME NUMBER of Pro Bowlers as you do now. So out of 16 starting QBs from the 1969 season, SIX of them made the Pro Bowl..Vs. now, you have 32 starting QBs and 6 of them made the Pro Bowl...In 1965, you had 14 NFL teams and 8 AFL Teams...So out of 66 starting LBs, 18 of them made a Pro Bowl...And make no mistake, its the Pro Bowls and All-Pro selections that push players to HOF status. Not to mention winnign Championships vs. a smaller crowd of teams in an era of no free agency..Teams like the Packers and Steelers could run the table for years with multiple HOF players.
I don't think there is a right or wrong here, but it would be a terrible travesty to see players from the 90's and 00's get snowballed because of the reasons mentioned above..When in reality if they had played during the 60's or 70's they would be sure fire HOFers.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>Or are some of those boderline players in the HOF to help some other teams be more represented than they otherwise would be? Its just a question. When I look at the Packers and Bears (the two teams with the most players in the HOF) I dont see too many border line players from those teams. Yet Kramer cant make it in?? There still is the human factor to the induction process. Reporters that may have disliked certain players still have a shot at knock them well after they are retired or pushing for their selections. Dont forget that there could be some deals made on the sides too. "Alright I will vote for Yary if you vote for Bethea down the road." >>
Agree 100%...Same can be said for players of the 90's and the present...When these guys come up for election (Art Monk is a PRIME example) they run into the same issues as players from the 60s and 70s did in the process. With 2 Senior candidates now, we are going to continue to see the HOF count of players from the 60s and 70s rise. Those guys aren't done going in yet. 20 years from now, the same thing is going to happen to the 90's players. Like I said, as time passes and the pool of qualified 60s and 70s guys goes nil, its the borderline 80's/90's guys who will benefit. I would be shocked if we don't see 35-50 players from the 90's era in the HOF one day. Based on the averages it's the only logical conclusion.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
B
a player like Green is my argument for the fault in using the numbers the way jason wants too, to support his argument that there are almost 20 hidden HOFers in the 90's.
i understand that some of these guys are bigger and faster. but then again what does a 1000 rushing season mean any more. not much. its like hitting 40 HRs in baseball now. samething with TD passes. a great year for a qb has to be almost 35 TD passes. like all sports games and players change. so do the stats. a 1000 yard season in a 12 game season is more impressive than just getting to that number in a 16 game season. i think we will also see the life of these players drop as well, from both injury and just making so much money that they dont need to stick around as long. there will always be exceptions, ala Green, Favre.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>skinsfan,
a player like Green is my argument for the fault in using the numbers the way jason wants too, to support his argument that there are almost 20 hidden HOFers in the 90's.
>>
Here's my challenge to you. Show me 50 HOFer (present or possible future) who were active during any year of the 1990's. You're going to be hard pressed coming up with them, and by the time you get down to 40-50 your going to start listing what most of us consider very borderline guys.
Show me the money and I will concede your point...lol
I just don't see how there could have been SO many HOFers playing the game in the 60s-70s, and so few playing in the 90s. Give me 50 ACTIVE future possible HOFers from any year in the 90s (and yes Darrell Green would count towards ALOT of years..lol). If you can swing that we will have the answer to the question. Either the list will contain all HOF lock kinda guys, or it will contain a bunch of borderline guys as I stated it will.
We all the know the stats change, but the Pro Bowls, All-Pro selections don't. Any when you are talking non-skill players who don't pass, run or catch the ball, they don't have any stats to go by.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Here is your answer.
There are already 20 players in the HOF that played in the 90's. Add the players we have already in the Future HOF set that played in the 90's and we are at roughly 45. So unless there are borderline players in the future HOF set, which there probably are as there are 3 kickers but also not as many O-line men.
Jay
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Current HOFers that played into the 90's
Montana
Lofton
Munoz
LT
Allen
Elway
Long
Marino
Dickerson
Slater
Kelly
Young
White
Moon
Munchak
Irvin
Matthews
T Thomas
B Sanders
Aikman
Total=20
From the Future HOF set
G Anderson (K)
M Andersen (K)
D Green
Rice
A Reed
B Smith
Zimmerman
McDaniel
C Carter
Woodson
T Brown
D Sanders
D Thomas
S At-water
Dawson
Butler
Sh Sharpe
Seau
E Smith
Randle
A Williams
Favre
J. Smith
Roaf
Bettis
Elam
Shields
Lynch
Strahan
Bruce
L Allen
Faulk
C Martin
D Brooks
T Davis
R Lewis
Ogden
M Harrison
Z Thomas
Vinatieri (K)
Pace
Gonzalez
P Manning
Holt
Bailey
Total=45
Now that actually equals 65.
So now Jason, where do all the borderline players that you are seeing coming from??????
Edited to add:
opps.
plus R Moss. with the numbers he has already he might just jump onto the list again.
so we havent even gotten to your list of borderliners yet.
Edit #2 Opps #2
I missed two HOFs.
M Singletary
D Hampton
both barely played into the 90's
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
You are just adding up every player that played during the 1990's...I'm talking SPECIFIC years, as some of those guys played early 90's, some played in the late 90's, not all 65 played every season. I knew your numbers were off a bit, so I went and added all the guys from the modern set to my database. Here's what I got:
1990- 48 (HOFers+ Players for Future-Modern set)
1991- 47
1992- 47
1993- 50
1994- 48
1995- 49
1996- 51
1997- 53
1998- 51
1999- 51
So , I guess you can get up to about 50 per season if every single guy on the modern set actually gets in. There are a few others who could possible be added to the set that would give some additional number to the late 90's (Moss is a good example).
This still doesnt quite explain the difference between number of players from the 60's and 70's. The ONLY YEARS in the 60's and 70's that had fewer HOFers than then 90's best year of 1997 (53) is 1960 (49), 1978 (51) and 1979 (49). Your average per year for the 90's still comes out to just 49.5. Not as extreme as I first expected, but still 10 players less than the 60's, and 9 players less than the 70's..PER YEAR AVERAGE...
To match 60's and 70's output you'll still need to find 10 more players PER SEASON in the 1990's...Which takes you back to my initial list..Cut off the bottom 3, and there you go.lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
You are a hard person to please or your question/challenge changes every time. This was your question/challenge.
"Here's my challenge to you. Show me 50 HOFer (present or possible future) who were active during any year of the 1990's. You're going to be hard pressed coming up with them, and by the time you get down to 40-50 your going to start listing what most of us consider very borderline guys."
So I gave you a list of over 60 players present or possible future HOFers that were active during any year of the 1990's. There was nothing in your challenge that said that the 50 had to be active in a single season. I think I have shown that there are plenty to chose from with out having to "reach" and still be in line with almost all the other decades.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>Your math is a little off.
You are just adding up every player that played during the 1990's...I'm talking SPECIFIC years, as some of those guys played early 90's, some played in the late 90's, not all 65 played every season. I knew your numbers were off a bit, so I went and added all the guys from the modern set to my database. Here's what I got:
1990- 48 (HOFers+ Players for Future-Modern set)
1991- 47
1992- 47
1993- 50
1994- 48
1995- 49
1996- 51
1997- 53
1998- 51
1999- 51
So , I guess you can get up to about 50 per season if every single guy on the modern set actually gets in. There are a few others who could possible be added to the set that would give some additional number to the late 90's (Moss is a good example).
This still doesnt quite explain the difference between number of players from the 60's and 70's. The ONLY YEARS in the 60's and 70's that had fewer HOFers than then 90's best year of 1997 (53) is 1960 (49), 1978 (51) and 1979 (49). Your average per year for the 90's still comes out to just 49.5. Not as extreme as I first expected, but still 10 players less than the 60's, and 9 players less than the 70's..PER YEAR AVERAGE...
To match 60's and 70's output you'll still need to find 10 more players PER SEASON in the 1990's...Which takes you back to my initial list..Cut off the bottom 3, and there you go.lol
Jason >>
so where is my math off. i think i added them up pretty close.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Essentially, this splits our debate down the middle..You estimated 65, I was estimating around 35, the actual number is 49-50 on average for the 1990's. My point remains the same, although not quite as strong. And that is that some of those "borderline" HOFers are going to end up in the HOF, simply based on the averages that the 60s and 70s have given us. I don;t think the talent base is any worse, but rather the 90's are going to catch up to the averages using those borderline players.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Boy, I'm confused.......
So am I. As the "rules" of this debate seem change with each post. Every other post until now you said everything was by decade. Now all of sudden you want by years. As for me I am done with this debate.
You asked me to give you the names of 50+ HOFers (future or current) that played in the 1990's. You have never said that it needed to be 50 every year until your last post. I think that I provided you with the answer that to challenge that you posed to me twice. My number was not an estimate but was based on players that played in the 90's who are either in the HOF already or are on our list of "Future Modern HOFers".
I will stick by my list and say that there arent that many borderline players that will be needed from the 90's. Sure there might be some, but nowhere near the number your envison in your arguement.
This debate wont be decided by any of us anyway. We will need to wait what almost 30 years until its decided.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Its really not complicated. I'm done with it as well..If no one "gets" what I'm trying to say I'll stop wasting time on it. No one else really seems interested anyway.
Thought I would try to infuse a little more football debate into the post which is what it used to be mostly about rather than an extention of the buy/sell/trade board.
Best of luck,
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>Thanks Frank. And thanks Jason for returning us to more debate rather than just a buy sell thread. It was fun. >>
Agreed...I always like a spirited debate, especially with someone who can present a good opposing argument. In the end, it ended up being almost right down the middle of each point.
My hobby before cards was NFL history, although I now spend more time on the cards than the history..lol...Every once and awhile its good to put my nose back in the books and learn a little bit more about something I enjoy learning..This was honestly an approach I had never taken. I didn't think the differences would be so great. Emmitt Thomas will likely add his name to the list of 60's-70's guys in February. Plus, there are at least 5-10 more Seniors I think SHOULD, and likely will be in the HOF.
If only there was a foolproof formula for figuring out who the next HOF class would be each year, I would be a rich man..lol..But with the voters, you just never know what your going to get (aka Marshall Goldberg).
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Thanks!! Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
An 8 has not sold since the site came on line !!
The last 7 sold for $ 66.62 on ebay 2/01/07
Gabbs
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>John Randle is considered a futer HOFer? Really? >>
Not to me.
It is a one of one and the highest graded Brown in exsistance. I'm not sure what I want to do with it. I could crack it and submit to psa hoping for the first 9..... Or sell as is. Not sure if the diamond cut would hold it back. The corners as as strong as I've seen..I am not looking to keep this and will be taking offers if anyone is interested. What would you guys do??? What's it worth??
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
John Randle was mentioned above. While I am fully aware of his shortcomings as a run stopper, he was elected to 7 Pro Bowls AND chosen a 6-time 1st Team All-Pro by many of the same voters on the HOF committee. Only 5 other DT's in the history of the league were chosen 6+ times as a 1st team All-Pro. They were:
Randy White- 8 times
Bob Lilly- 7 times
Merlin Olsen- 6 times
Leo Nomellini- 6 times
Alan Page- 6 times
4 of the 5 above were FIRST BALLOT HOFers, while Alan Page got in on his 2nd try. I don't think Randle will get in that easily, because if I were ranking the 6 DTs above, he would obviously be #6...Just wasn't in that class... BUT, I think he is going to get in. There are ZERO other worthy DT modern candidates...The next guy who will even come close is Warren Sapp. Randle was THE dominant DT of his day. He was a disrupter who wasn't tasked with being a run stuffer. His job was to penetrate the line and even with his small size, he did that better than any DT in the 80's or 90's...
At the very least, he is a serious candidate and will be at minimum a semi-finalist (Top 25) in his first year (2009). Not sure, based on his resume, why anyone would totally disregard him as a candidate.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Thanks again,
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>If you're in no rush to get rid of it, Dave, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try to cross it to a 9. I'd put the odds at maybe 75/25 against the cross, but no harm in trying. If that doesn't work, throw it up on eBay as "highest graded" with a high reserve. You could even do that first. And if all else fails, I'd get it into a PSA 8 holder and put it on eBay for 10 days starting on a Thursday. It's funny how things like this go. The actual card is obviously not going to change if it switches holders. But the clothes (case) that it's wearing would.
I would concur with this. Give it a shot at a crossover. If it were me, I would actually try to crack and submit. I think the chance of it coming back a 7 is lower than the odds of it bumping to a PSA 9. It looks like a safe bet to at least get an 8 back, which would net you $400-$600 on ebay. As far as putting it on ebay as an SGC, there is no chance you will get the money a PSA 9 will bring, but it is possible you could pull more than a PSA 8. I'm a gambling man myself, so personally I would go for the gold, the 1/1 PSA 9 and if it comes back an 8 (after a couple of tries..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
2001 topps chrome refractor is THE Rc for Tomlinson and chad johnson, so it makes sense that like Steve Smiths RC would be a topps refractor. Someone wise to the ways of the world told me (llate into the night) that SP was not chosen that year because its an autographed version, which makes sense, but was the topps refractor chosen of the plain old topps because the Beckett value was higher?
So for 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005, are the official RC's back to SP?
Take Tony Romo for example, what will be his official RC ,and how, and who decides its that, other than just straight up Beckett Value.
What if alot of collectors go after a Topps refractor card because Beckett rates it the most valuable, then as that player comes closer to being inducted into a WR or RB set, lets say his Bowman chrome increases in value because everyone is scrambling to get one. Does it become a race to the finish, which card is worth more when that player gets the minimum stats required for induction into that set?
Could someone please tell me which brand of card we are leaning to for each year after 2001
Edited to add: Dave, send that Brown in on a 5 day special, if it comes back an 8, its worth more than an SGC 92 IMO, if it comes back a 9, well, thats why they call it gambling
joe
<< <i>Ive been curious how THE brand of card for rookies is chosen. I know the criteria for what is not allowed, autos, less than 999 produced, no spin offs etc. For example
Could someone please tell me which brand of card we are leaning to for each year after 2001
joe >>
It is based on most popular/most valuable. Not necessarily strictly Beckett, but yes Beckett is used in cases of low dollar raw cards (1994 Larry Allen is prime example). The theory being that the most valuble and most popluar card are one in the same. The Law of Supply and Demand tells you that the most expensive card IS the most popular. Not sure what other method you would use to determine popularity other than a card people will pay more for. Some cards are very close (1995 Terrell Davis SP and Select Cert.) and in those cases PSA will send a poll to collector's of whatever set its being added to to ask which is preferred. The Super Bowl MVP set vs. the Future- Modern HOF RC set is the precedent. When the Super Bowl MVP set was created in circa 2003, the 1995 Select Certifed was the most popular/valuable. SMR said so, Beckett said so, and ebay sales said so. Fast forward to 2007, the Select Certified turned out to be WAY EASY to obtain in high grade and it drove down the value. By 2007, The SMR and Beckett showed either the SP being wirth more, at worst the same amount. On ebay, the SP was selling a little higher in PSA 9 and much higher in PSA 10. So we voted here on the boards prior to loading the set, and the majority wanted the SP and not the Select Certified. That doesn't mean someone couldn't request a change to Select, and at that point we would all get a poll and that would decide any changes.
To answer the 2nd question, I attempted to research 2001 and later about 12-18 months ago. Its almost impossible. So many card are either auto'd, or individually numbered less than 999, or jersey cards, parallels, etc. I gave up. Even in 2001, not EVERY Sp Authentic rookie was an auto/jersey/game used card. There are exceptions to almost every player, so its not as simple as saying 2001 every "best rookie" is Topps Chrome, or 2003, every best rookie is SP Authentic. Its based on value which is driven by demand and some guys card will be SP and other guys Topps Chrome and other guys something else.
Eventually someone is going to have to dig deep into each of the hundreds of card issues from those years and figure out which cards qualify and which do not. And that isn't something I will be volunteering to do...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Chad Johnson is WELL on his way to the 800-12,000 club. In his 7th season he is currently at 491 catches, 7,367 yds. The only other 2001 to present rookie on that pace is Anquan Boldin. 364 catches, 4,891 yds in his 5th NFL season.
Steve Smith is well behind pace. Based on his injury history, I would say he's a longshot. In his 7th season he is at 360 catches, 5,206 yds. He wasn't a starter in his rookie season and missed most of '04 with injury. Only twice has he played a full 16 game season. Not impossible, but he'll probably have to have a longer than usual career to get to those numbers.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Thanks
dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
On the bad side both my cards came up 7's, even the SGC 92
of course I will crack and resubmit.
Vince