Collectors Acceptance Corporation, NEW Stickering Information
earlygoldnut
Posts: 206 ✭
From the Certfied Coin Dealer Newsletter “Bluesheet”
“Collectors Acceptance Corporation (CAC), founded by John Alabanese will soon be applying “approval stickers” to those PCGS and NGC certified coins that are deemed to be solid for the grade. John says when he views coins he gives them an alpha letter of A, B or C for their numerical grade on the slab label. Only coins that fall into the A and B category will be “stickered” with approval. A small tamper proof oval approval sticker will be placed on the front of the slab along with directions for authentication verification on their web site. Certified coins that are believed to be under-graded will be issued special stickers designating the coins as potential upgrade candidates. CAC is planning on publishing populations of “stickered” or approved coins on their web site ,but will not list those certified coins that do not qualify. Pricing for this new service has not been finalized, but free opinions are planned to be given to collectors at select shows.”
“Collectors Acceptance Corporation (CAC), founded by John Alabanese will soon be applying “approval stickers” to those PCGS and NGC certified coins that are deemed to be solid for the grade. John says when he views coins he gives them an alpha letter of A, B or C for their numerical grade on the slab label. Only coins that fall into the A and B category will be “stickered” with approval. A small tamper proof oval approval sticker will be placed on the front of the slab along with directions for authentication verification on their web site. Certified coins that are believed to be under-graded will be issued special stickers designating the coins as potential upgrade candidates. CAC is planning on publishing populations of “stickered” or approved coins on their web site ,but will not list those certified coins that do not qualify. Pricing for this new service has not been finalized, but free opinions are planned to be given to collectors at select shows.”
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Comments
CAC is planning on publishing populations of “stickered” or approved coins on their web site ,but will not list those certified coins that do not qualify
I would like to be able to see the cert #'s for coins the CAC has looked at and deemed a "C" coin personally. If they aren't going to publish it for the public, I at least hope they keep internal records, otherwise it will become resubmittal heaven for them until a different CAC member perhaps sees things differently. I'm hoping if one says no, they all say no - or have some sort of CAC review board or whatnot.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
I can just see it now:
Slimeball dealer, after unsuccessfully attempting to garner the magical, mystical, approval of the consortium, to unsuspecting customer: "This is SUCH a great example and worthy of upgrade potential, that I bet you will EASILY be able to get consortium approval on this gem!"
*retch*
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>“Collectors Acceptance Corporation (CAC), founded by John Alabanese will soon be applying “approval stickers” to those PCGS and NGC certified coins that are deemed to be solid for the grade. John says when he views coins he gives them an alpha letter of A, B or C for their numerical grade on the slab label. Only coins that fall into the A and B category will be “stickered” with approval. >>
So 'A' is presumably for coins designated PQ and 'B' is for coins that make the grade but aren't special, leaving 'C' for the overgraded coins and doctored coins?
<< <i>Certified coins that are believed to be under-graded will be issued special stickers designating the coins as potential upgrade candidates. >>
Thus encouraging people to crack out the coin in the stickered slab, making it unstickered again?
By the way -- if they are going to give an opinion that a coin is undergraded, I don't care what they say -- they ARE grading coins, not just saying whether or not they find it acceptable for the grade.
<< <i>Color me cynical, but isn't knowing which coins have NOT been approved just as critical as knowing those that have?
I can just see it now:
Slimeball dealer, after unsuccessfully attempting to garner the magical, mystical, approval of the consortium, to unsuspecting customer: "This is SUCH a great example and worthy of upgrade potential, that I bet you will EASILY be able to get consortium approval on this gem!"
*retch* >>
I agree.
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I can just imagine the new, 64-page BlueSheet it is going to take to list all of the permutations.....
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Sigh!
<< <i>I can just imaging the new, 64-page BlueSheet it is going to take to list all of the permutations..... >>
Sounds like a load of bluesheet to me.
<< <i>Slimeball dealer, after unsuccessfully attempting to garner the magical, mystical, approval of the consortium, to unsuspecting customer: "This is SUCH a great example and worthy of upgrade potential, that I bet you will EASILY be able to get consortium approval on this gem!" >>
The same slimeball dealers are already telling their customers that they are being sold PQ coins when they are not. Your argument above seems to back up the case for buying stickered coins in the first place.
<< <i>Certified coins that are believed to be under-graded will be issued special stickers designating the coins as potential upgrade candidates. >>
And this is going to stop the crackout artists how?
That's a shame, and will lead to resubmissions just like the TPG's.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>And this is going to stop the crackout artists how? >>
Identifying a PQ coin will help a collector understand that he/she has something special and above average.
The only entities that can STOP coin doctors are the TPG's, they slab the coins. That's the bottom line-
<< <i>That's a shame, and will lead to resubmissions just like the TPG's. >>
I think this is a big part of the cynicism about this project. The TPGs would seem to have reason to look for ways to encourage resubmissions -- whether it's gradeflation to encourage crackouts, bodybagging seemingly good coins and make them "pay the tax" and so on.
I can understand why they wouldn't want to put a scarlet letter on a coin they looked at once and rejected -- maybe it just missed and they were having a bad day -- but it would certainly not discourage resubmissions unless -- at minimum -- they kept an unpublished database of rejected slabs. Without that it looks just like the TPGs; lets encourage more resubmissions and more revenue. I hope the backers of this initiative can at least understand why the cynicism is here in that respect and take it into account.
<< <i>Identifying a PQ coin will help a collector understand that he/she has something special and above average. >>
And if a coin lists for $1000 in 64 and $3000 in 65, telling someone they have an upgrade candidate 64 isn't going to do much to KEEP it special and above average. Unless the market values this coin at full 65 money, to the crackout farm it goes and becomes a mediocre (and possibly CAC-unworthy) 65. Seems counterproductive in terms of keeping the best coins for the grade in their current (stickered) holders.
<< <i>
<< <i>And this is going to stop the crackout artists how? >>
Identifying a PQ coin will help a collector understand that he/she has something special and above average.
The only entities that can STOP coin doctors are the TPG's, they slab the coins. That's the bottom line- >>
Now I understand why the TPGs are all for this. More submissions for them!
coins that they feel are under-graded or solid for the grade for the ngc/pcgs plastic.
They have $25 mil to support this endevor with sight unseen bids which will be 20-40% higher than (????) bids.
This will stop all of the crack out artists and kill or severly cripple all the coin doctors.
This will eliminate gradeflation.
This will also cause NGC/PCGS to crack down on loose grading.
This will have dramatic effects in cleaning up the market place and saving the collector from his own follies.
This is good.
"let those who don't want any,
have memories of not getting any.
let this be their reward and not a punishment.
Then, when they get old and gray,
and are rocking to and fro in their rocking chair, they can say:
"well. I could have""
<< <i>
<< <i>And this is going to stop the crackout artists how? >>
Identifying a PQ coin will help a collector understand that he/she has something special and above average.
The only entities that can STOP coin doctors are the TPG's, they slab the coins. That's the bottom line- >>
I would agree with you if it was the A/B sticker meaning either good for the grade, or high for the grade (If I'm seeing the A/B/C thing correctly). But that 2nd sticker indicating upgrade potential is a whole other beast all together. I would think having this sticker would tell the average collector that the CAC thinks this could upgrade, so it's getting sent back in - I can see nearly every one of these coins getting resubmitted at least once.
I would also venture to guess that the sight-unseen trading of these upgrade stickered coins between dealers would mean a few trips for regrades as well. What I'm waiting to see is what happens when it's an A/B & Upgrade candidate at say MS64, so it gets sent in, and just makes MS65, but now for the grade is just a "C" and doesn't get any sticker, and put on the reject list by the CAC.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>
<< <i>And this is going to stop the crackout artists how? >>
Identifying a PQ coin will help a collector understand that he/she has something special and above average.
The only entities that can STOP coin doctors are the TPG's, they slab the coins. That's the bottom line- >>
The question was not answered.
Its alll about greed.
I am in no way saying that I have an inside scoop...but I wonder if that portion of the service was a product of some 'discussions' between David and John. It is a nice gesture to keep the slab train rolling is it not?
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>It isn't a grading service... >>
If they are going to place a sticker on a coin to indicate the coin is undergraded, they *are* grading the coin.
IMO, they should simply stick (no pun intended) to either "good for the grade" or not. If they start getting into this A/B/C stuff and putting "crackout candidate" stickers, they are grading.
<< <i>And if a coin lists for $1000 in 64 and $3000 in 65, telling someone they have an upgrade candidate 64 isn't going to do much to KEEP it special and above average. Unless the market values this coin at full 65 money, to the crackout farm it goes and becomes a mediocre (and possibly CAC-unworthy) 65. Seems counterproductive in terms of keeping the best coins for the grade in their current (stickered) holders. >>
Knowing what they have will help a collector understand that their PQ coin is worth more than the $1,000 listed for the grade. This will prevent them from being cherrypicked by a dealer. Now whether a coin ends up getting upgraded or not that's a TPG issue not a CAC issue.
<< <i>Now I understand why the TPGs are all for this. More submissions for them! >>
This is what my brain is processing, Marty.
PCGS graded coins will get a sticker that says coin is actually a higher grade. While NGC will be infallible ( did I spell that right ? ) And the grades will be SPOT ON. The NGC graded coins that are upgradeable will be crossed to PCGS and if CAC members don't agree with that grade they will override PCGS with a sticker, or simply send it back to NGC where it will rest comfortably at the grade the CAC believes it should be.
That's how I see this going, Marty.
I'll move your rare coins COMMISSION FREE ! Save your juice for when you're thirsty !
<< <i>
<< <i>And if a coin lists for $1000 in 64 and $3000 in 65, telling someone they have an upgrade candidate 64 isn't going to do much to KEEP it special and above average. Unless the market values this coin at full 65 money, to the crackout farm it goes and becomes a mediocre (and possibly CAC-unworthy) 65. Seems counterproductive in terms of keeping the best coins for the grade in their current (stickered) holders. >>
Knowing what they have will help a collector understand that their PQ coin is worth more than the $1,000 listed for the grade. This will prevent them from being cherrypicked by a dealer. Now whether a coin ends up getting upgraded or not that's a TPG issue not a CAC issue. >>
Well, first of all: Yes, the market WILL value the PQ 64 more than $1,000 if the quality is obvious -- that's already true, even without the CAC. But if the jump to the next grade is $3,000 and the PQ 64 would sell for, say, $1,500? I smell a crackout. That's why I said that unless the market valued the "upgrade candidate" sticker at full 65 money, it encourages crackouts -- and another unstickered coin again.
As for it being a TPG issue and not a CAC issue, I partially disagree -- with the "upgrade candidate" sticker, it's easy for an owner of such a coin to draw a reasonable inference that they should crack out the coin and resubmit rather than just enjoy the coin for what it is instead of what the plastic says it is.
<< <i>
<< <i>Now I understand why the TPGs are all for this. More submissions for them! >>
This is what my brain is processing, Marty.
PCGS graded coins will get a sticker that says coin is actually a higher grade. While NGC will be infallible ( did I spell that right ? ) And the grades will be SPOT ON. The NGC graded coins that are upgradeable will be crossed to PCGS and if CAC members don't agree with that grade they will override PCGS with a sticker, or simply send it back to NGC where it will rest comfortably at the grade the CAC believes it should be.
That's how I see this going, Marty.
I'll move your rare coins COMMISSION FREE ! Save your juice for when you're thirsty ! >>
I'm waiting to see what set of standards they are going to use for their sticker, but ultimately, one of the two services are going to fair better. I've seen one of the CAC members state that service X grades 1 point higher in their opinion in numerous postings in the past, so when it is this persons turn to sticker coins, it tells me service X is going to be out of luck a lot of the time. I'm sure they will post their own or adopt one of the many grading standards out there before they start stickering though.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>
<< <i>It isn't a grading service... >>
If they are going to place a sticker on a coin to indicate the coin is undergraded, they *are* grading the coin. >>
Not only that... how do you decide which coins to put a "good for the grade" sticker on without grading them? How do you decide which coins to not put sticker on beacuse they're "not good for the grade" without grading them?
<< <i>I'm waiting to see what set of standards they are going to use for their sticker, but ultimately, one of the two services are going to fair better. I've seen one of the CAC members state that service X grades 1 point higher in their opinion in numerous postings in the past, so when it is this persons turn to sticker coins, it tells me service X is going to be out of luck a lot of the time. I'm sure they will post their own or adopt one of the many grading standards out there before they start stickering though. >>
True. Let's face it, a lot of people have preconceived notions about which TPG is superior. If there's a coin that's a "liner" -- either a "liner" as to whether or not it's a 'B' or a 'C' or whether or not it gets an "upgrade candidate" sticker -- will their preconceived notions about TPGs affect their decision? And will that further widen the "perception gap" between TPGs and market value of plastic?
<< <i>Certified coins that are believed to be under-graded will be issued special stickers designating the coins as potential upgrade candidates. >>
Will there be a little image of a can of worms on this sticker?
Russ, NCNE
I loved Ziggy';s Bluesheet comment.
Hasn't the A, B and C system been on the minds of the top TPGs from the beginning? This stickering seems to be a legitimate extension of the grading process. The publication of the news release in the Bluesheet seems to further confirm the industry's acceptance of the practice. Perhaps this CAC is here to stay as much as the TPGs are -- because most people want it.
The critics here raise some interesting points, but honestly I would like a sort of second opinion on the coins I'm buying. I've been in the hobby for only a year, and I don't see why I should stick to buying $25 coins just because I don't know as much about grading and doctoring as lifelong numismatists do. I want the recognition of the sticker on some of my pieces, both to validate my eye and to earn what I deserve if I choose to sell.
<< <i>The only entities that can STOP coin doctors are the TPG's, they slab the coins. That's the bottom line- >>
<< <i>A group of major retailers who were fed up with the grading services and their attitudes are forming a group called Collectors Acceptance Corporation. It will basically sticker coins in holders (acceptable or not acceptable). The coin docs already hate us knowing they are soon to be gone. >>
You and Laura should probably get together and coordinate these public announcements.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>This stickering seems to be a legitimate extension of the grading process. The publication of the news release in the Bluesheet seems to further confirm the industry's acceptance of the practice. Perhaps this CAC is here to stay as much as the TPGs are -- because most people want it. >>
Maybe. But if so, they need to be honest and admit they ARE a grading service in some sense. They keep saying they are not a grading service, but if you're going to issue an opinion that a coin is either overgraded, graded accurately or undergraded based on the type of sticker (and whether it's stickered at all), you are giving a de facto grading opinion.
I don't know why they can't admit that. The only reason I can think of is that they don't want to appear to be a "competitor" of PCGS, NGC or anyone else.
To Clarify-
Coins that meet the a& b crtieria will receive a sticker, C's will not.
THERE ARE NOT going to be A & B Stickers, they either make it or they don't - if they are viewed as upgrade candidates they will receive a second special sticker but I think these will be few are far between.
<< <i>You and Laura should probably get together and coordinate these public announcements. >>
The TPG's are going to be ultimately responsible for stopping coin doctors. Laura is 100% correct because with the advent of CAC I can just about guarantee that the TPG's are going to crack down. The coin doctors have plenty to worry about.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>THERE ARE NOT going to be A & B Stickers, they either make it or they don't - if they are viewed as upgrade candidates they will receive a second special sticker but I think these will be few are far between. >>
Will the upgrade candidate stickers provide kickback revenues from the TPGs?
Given their stated goals -- stopping gradeflation being one of them -- I don't see how the CAC members can't see why this "upgrade" sticker is a bad idea, even if other facets of its operation are sound.
<< <i>As a result, it will be possible for a seller to represent a coin as having not been tried with CAC, and premium for the grade. I'm amazed the group involved is afraid to publicly identify the weak coins. >>
I'm guessing liability concerns, specifically lawsuits alleging "loss of value" in their coins because CAC placed a scarlet letter on the slab.
ziggy29: Sounds like a load of bluesheet to me.
and then
<< <i>Given their stated goals -- stopping gradeflation being one of them -- I don't see how the CAC members can't see why this "upgrade" sticker is a bad idea, even if other facets of its operation are sound >>
It's not a bad idea because there are actually coins that deserve the designation, it may be 1 out of every 1,000 but they do exist. If someone wants to assume the financial risk of cracking the coin it's their perogative. At the same time collectors will understand that they have a coin worthy of a premium.
Keep seeing this mentioned, where is that info coming from?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
I agree. I think that they should identify weak coins, just not MY weak coins.
I think the upgrade sticker is a can of worms, as Russ indicated. I can see it now. One buys a coin with an upgrade sticker, cracks it out, sends it to the same TPG and it comes back a grade lower...or BB'ed. This scenario will happen, and it will be a 200+ post thread on the forum when it happens to one of us. Best bet in town.
<< <i>Keep seeing this mentioned, where is that info coming from? >>
Well, TDN says he's in for a million. Taking him at his word, that leaves another $24 million. Silent partners, perhaps?
<< <i>
<< <i>Keep seeing this mentioned, where is that info coming from? >>
Well, TDN says he's in for a million. Taking him at his word, that leaves another $24 million. Silent partners, perhaps? >>
I'm in for 2 cents.
<< <i><< You and Laura should probably get together and coordinate these public announcements. >>
The TPG's are going to be ultimately responsible for stopping coin doctors. Laura is 100% correct because with the advent of CAC I can just about guarantee that the TPG's are going to crack down. The coin doctors have plenty to worry about. >>
<< <i><< And this is going to stop the crackout artists how? >>
Identifying a PQ coin will help a collector understand that he/she has something special and above average.
The only entities that can STOP coin doctors are the TPG's, they slab the coins. That's the bottom line- >>
Ah, it's all very clear now. The CAC can't stop coin doctors. Only the TPG's can stop coin doctors. But, the CAC will stop coin doctors.
Russ, NCNE