<< <i>This post is a joke ; we don`t need to be told what 90% of us already know (what's P.Q) - we need to cull out the crap on the market >>
See, this is what the problem is- you speak of 90% of those who are on these boards. The reality is that that 90% makes up about 1% of the coin industry.
Good Evening. I respectfully ask tradedollarnut- is the fundamental genius of this endeavor based on integrity and ethic? Resting assured that the answer would be "yes", and that the individuals participating in the endeavor are deserving of respect for having and practising same, THEN I WOULD SUPPORT THIS ENDEAVOR. I do request you clarify "Joe Collector " status, because the fundamental genius that is the foundation of the Enterprise would fail without him/her. Indeed, a reverse action would be the result, based on the simple fact that only so many "high end/special/investor type/etc. coins exist. I see every reason for having a direct submission status granted to the collector. Otherwise, this project is simply an investment service that would be limited in its'benefit to the average joe collector. Yes, we all hope for a return on our efforts, for ourself and possibly our family, but is the basis as a HOBBY first, and investment second? There is certainly an economic return expected by the investors, as there should be. The question is: is the economic return based solely on the cost of the service? Regards and Respectfully, John Curlis
If CAC is doing this for the collectors, why have they been buying PQ coins to sticker? Who are they buying these coins from? So basicly they are making a market to sell the $10,000,000 in coins they have bought and stickered at an instant 40% markup?
It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!
P.S. You are gracious by addressing the issues. We still owe PCGS and CU a great deal of gratitude for playing host. They don't deserve to have their graders insulted when the graders themselves are barred from responding. I do take certain offense to the words "incompetent graders". Lest we forget; To err is human. Graders are employees and much is expected of them. >>
<< <i>A CAC stickered coin as an upgrade candidate is worth far more than the risk of a crackout effort, and in many instances I can see the coin bringing next grade up prices anyway without a specific designation by one of the TPG's. >>
You're kidding, right? The big crackout artists live and breathe "risk" every day of their lives. And, if you think the upgrade sticker will make the coins that crackout artists target, (the ones with HUGE value spreads), suddenly worth the same as a coin holdered at the next grade up, you're looney.
If CAC is doing this for the collectors, why have they been buying PQ coins to sticker? Who are they buying these coins from? So basicly they are making a market to sell the $10,000,000 in coins they have bought and stickered at an instant 40% markup?
Although I can't speak for the CAC, the answer should be obvious. First, CAC is not doing this only for the collectors. It's also a business, same as PCGS or your local hospital. Second, don't assume they're going to make 40%. I'm sure they had to pay significant premiums to acquire $10 million in PQ coins. If there's any "real money" to be made, it will be made later.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Public Information compiled on the "Coin Consortium" (Collectors Acceptance Corporation or the "CAC")
Thank you, Goldbully. Very useful service you provided by compiling and posting the above! I am little less worried now, having read Laura's whole-hearted approval. Really. And reading Doug Winters testimonial and learning about the influence and respect attributed to John Albanese merits thought. Still, I remember how easy Colin Powell took me in -- not saying any person here is playing Powell's role, but saying credibility and trust and track record are not enough when what is being proposed could have titanic effect. And like the Titanic, the CAC does intend to make a big impression and change the market.
So, where is ziggy's Joe Collector model being addressed? It doesn't cover ALL collectors, sure. I have no data that says it even applies to a significant portion of collectors. But my sense is that it does cover a lot of us HERE.
Why would the price on a 1916-D in G or F change at all?
I've always found TDN's reasoning very clear, and so it is again when he explains his support for the CAC as Goldbully excerpted in the compilation post above. But can somebody explain how this new service WOULD NOT drive all prices up, taking a 1916-D in G or F for example? Is it really possible that the market which CAC will make for their stickered coins will operate without influence (pulling up the prices) on the common type and key coins?
<< <i>I've always found TDN's reasoning very clear, and so it is again when he explains his support for the CAC as Goldbully excerpted in the compilation post above. But can somebody explain how this new service WOULD NOT drive all prices up, taking a 1916-D in G or F for example? Is it really possible that the market which CAC will make for their stickered coins will operate without influence (pulling up the prices) on the common type and key coins? >>
I don't think they'd distort markets they aren't making too badly. But when TDN said the average middle-class schmuck collecting coins won't be affected, I asked him if I could take that to mean that CAC wouldn't be interested in making markets in (say) $500-$2,000 coins (often "high end" for collectors of moderate means), but didn't get a response that I saw.
If I knew they were only targeting high-end material (say $10,000 and up), then TDN would likely be right -- I see little impact to average collectors. But if they are going to start making markets in quality slabbed coins in three figures and low four-figures, the little guy (at least ones who buy slabbed coins) would seem to be inevitably impacted.
<< <i>"If CAC is doing this for the collectors, why have they been buying PQ coins to sticker? Who are they buying these coins from? So basicly they are making a market to sell the $10,000,000 in coins they have bought and stickered at an instant 40% markup? " >>
I don't know where you get your information but CAC is NOT pre buying 10 million in coins, the company is NOT even in operation yet! The 10-25 million dollar is the funding amount for the company, which will also be used to fund the sight unseen bids of stickered coins. Oh- and the 40% markup sounds great for your purposes but is also not true, very unrealistic.
So, just so there is no mis understanding-
The information Mad marty posted is totally incorrect and has no basis in fact.
<< <i>A CAC stickered coin as an upgrade candidate is worth far more than the risk of a crackout effort, and in many instances I can see the coin bringing next grade up prices anyway without a specific designation by one of the TPG's. >>
You're kidding, right? The big crackout artists live and breathe "risk" every day of their lives. And, if you think the upgrade sticker will make the coins that crackout artists target, (the ones with HUGE value spreads), suddenly worth the same as a coin holdered at the next grade up, you're looney.
Russ, NCNE >>
Yeah, will let me ask you, if you had a coin that received an upgrade sticker from CAC, would you risk cracking it out?
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Now someone is in firm control of the pricing and it will be interesting to see how agressive they become. The losers and the avergage certified stuff will mostly get dumped in auctions by the truckload! Look for prices of these to drift lower. If a liquidity problem hits the market, the average and low end stuff will suffer. It may not be out of line to see a 50% difference between some stickered coins and the dregs, eventually. This would be accomplished by the dregs lowering in value, IMO.
Hopefully it will possible to crack out the dregs and get them into the lower grade holder, add the sticker with no loss.
Hmmm...that's a really good point! That seems plausible. Joe or Jane Collector could actually wind up paying less to acquire the acceptably average parts of his or her collection? Meanwhile, J.J. Collector's currently owned good but average coins decrease in value.
<< <i><< A CAC stickered coin as an upgrade candidate is worth far more than the risk of a crackout effort, and in many instances I can see the coin bringing next grade up prices anyway without a specific designation by one of the TPG's. >>
You're kidding, right? The big crackout artists live and breathe "risk" every day of their lives. And, if you think the upgrade sticker will make the coins that crackout artists target, (the ones with HUGE value spreads), suddenly worth the same as a coin holdered at the next grade up, you're looney.
Russ, NCNE >>
Yeah, will let me ask you, if you had a coin that received an upgrade sticker from CAC, would you risk cracking it out? >>
That's a rather silly - and irrelevant - question since I'm not a big crackout artist earning my living by assuming that level of risk. You can bet your ass, though, that an upgrade sticker is not going to stop those who are. They operate in an entirely different world than you or I. A world where high dollar risk is part and parcel to their every day lives.
<< <i>Yeah, will let me ask you, if you had a coin that received an upgrade sticker from CAC, would you risk cracking it out? >>
Depends on how well I know the odds and how much money is at stake in an upgrade. Plus, if a coin is good enough to be considered a virtual lock upgrade, it shouldn't take more than 2-3 submissions before making the grade. Even so, there's enough risk in it that they would (understandably) expect to be rewarded well for taking that risk.
<< <i><< "If CAC is doing this for the collectors, why have they been buying PQ coins to sticker? Who are they buying these coins from? So basicly they are making a market to sell the $10,000,000 in coins they have bought and stickered at an instant 40% markup? " >>
I don't know where you get your information but CAC is NOT pre buying 10 million in coins, the company is NOT even in operation yet! The 10-25 million dollar is the funding amount for the company, which will also be used to fund the sight unseen bids of stickered coins. Oh- and the 40% markup sounds great for your purposes but is also not true, very unrealistic.
So, just so there is no mis understanding-
The information Mad marty posted is totally incorrect and has no basis in fact. >>
There has been an assertion that Coin World published an article stating that CAC was buying $10 million in coins for stickering. If that's the case, then perhaps you should contact them and let them know that their article has no basis in fact.
I simply copied and pasted the home page of the CAC Website.
That is not the CAC website.
The concept is real simple, folks - too many collectors are buying crap. Right now, they're getting away with having the faces fall off their puttied gold because it's an 'up market'. Sooner or later the market stops and it's time to pay the piper. Those that believe as I do, that it's better to pay a premium to buy high end coins because the grade on the holder limits the value vs the quality of the coin, are ALREADY paying premiums for quality. But when it comes time to sell, it's a hard sell because too many people are used to paying 10% in back of bid for 'just made it' slop. The CAC is simply redefining the marketplace and saying that we will put our money where our mouth is - if a coin is solid for the grade, we will make a market in it. We will provide instant 'sight unseen' bids for the coins we have already reviewed that meet our standard. Not PQ, not upgrade candidates - solid for the grade. Since we are viewing your coin, we will ALSO let you know if the coin that you have is a lock upgrade by today's standards. We will let you keep your coin in its old holder [which may be worth an additional premium to you due to stability] and still play the Registry at a current market grade. We won't punish you for having your coin in the wrong holder by not letting you put it on the Registry. All readily apparent advantages to the collector.
What isn't readily apparent is the fact that having the CAC in the marketplace has ALREADY caused a tightening of standards at the TPGs. NCS and its upgrade conduit has been cut back, which means less destruction of original coins. Hopefully, by having a market maker looking over their shoulders, the TPGs will take steps to further reduce the doctored and AT'd coins that are floating around out there. This will reduce the profit in messing with those coins, leading to fewer being ruined.
If you choose to throw your hands up in the air and believe that you will be paying more for the same quality, that is your choice. But most collectors are ALREADY paying for that quality in this market.
<< <i>What isn't readily apparent is the fact that having the CAC in the marketplace has ALREADY caused a tightening of standards at the TPGs. NCS and its upgrade conduit has been cut back, which means less destruction of original coins. Hopefully, by having a market maker looking over their shoulders, the TPGs will take steps to further reduce the doctored and AT'd coins that are floating around out there. This will reduce the profit in messing with those coins, leading to fewer being ruined.
If you choose to throw your hands up in the air and believe that you will be paying more for the same quality, that is your choice. But most collectors are ALREADY paying for that quality in this market. >>
I really hope you're right. But I remember that slabbing began some 20 years ago for many of the same reasons, and look today at how much more a quality slabbed coin will sell for than an equally quality raw coin.
Professional opinions that are accepted in the marketplace add value and cost to the coins they are attached to. The major TPGs have proven that. And if the market embraces CAC, I don't see why that wouldn't happen again.
To repeat, I really hope I'm wrong. If all this does is cause the price of crap to fall, I'm all for it. If it makes doctored coins virtually unmarketable and stops more doctoring, even better. But I suspect it will also lead to value inflation in the quality stuff, creating more of a premium than there is today and pricing more collectors out of the coins they want to have.
<< <i><< A CAC stickered coin as an upgrade candidate is worth far more than the risk of a crackout effort, and in many instances I can see the coin bringing next grade up prices anyway without a specific designation by one of the TPG's. >>
You're kidding, right? The big crackout artists live and breathe "risk" every day of their lives. And, if you think the upgrade sticker will make the coins that crackout artists target, (the ones with HUGE value spreads), suddenly worth the same as a coin holdered at the next grade up, you're looney.
Russ, NCNE >>
Yeah, will let me ask you, if you had a coin that received an upgrade sticker from CAC, would you risk cracking it out? >>
That's a rather silly - and irrelevant - question since I'm not a big crackout artist earning my living by assuming that level of risk. You can bet your ass, though, that an upgrade sticker is not going to stop those who are. They operate in an entirely different world than you or I. A world where high dollar risk is part and parcel to their every day lives.
Russ, NCNE >>
That's the whole point........if we are talking about high dollar risk.....then its a high dollar risk......at this point in the evolvement of coin grading, I would rather have an Albanese upgrade sticker coin than the same coin in a higher TPG slab ( much less the risk it wouldn't get upgraded).....unstickered. I think others will think the same too! Especially those who have dealt with Albanese before.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i><< << A CAC stickered coin as an upgrade candidate is worth far more than the risk of a crackout effort, and in many instances I can see the coin bringing next grade up prices anyway without a specific designation by one of the TPG's. >>
You're kidding, right? The big crackout artists live and breathe "risk" every day of their lives. And, if you think the upgrade sticker will make the coins that crackout artists target, (the ones with HUGE value spreads), suddenly worth the same as a coin holdered at the next grade up, you're looney.
Russ, NCNE >>
Yeah, will let me ask you, if you had a coin that received an upgrade sticker from CAC, would you risk cracking it out? >>
That's a rather silly - and irrelevant - question since I'm not a big crackout artist earning my living by assuming that level of risk. You can bet your ass, though, that an upgrade sticker is not going to stop those who are. They operate in an entirely different world than you or I. A world where high dollar risk is part and parcel to their every day lives.
Russ, NCNE >>
That's the whole point........if we are talking about high dollar risk.....then its a high dollar risk......at this point in the evolvement of coin grading, I would rather have an Albanese upgrade sticker coin than the same coin in a higher TPG slab ( much less the risk it wouldn't get upgraded).....unstickered. I think others will think the same too! Especially those who have dealt with Albanese before. >>
What you want, or what I want, or what "others" want doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Our opinions and feelings have zero impact on the big crackout guys. It's very naive to believe that they will suddenly become risk adverse when they see a sticker on the holder.
<< <i><< << A CAC stickered coin as an upgrade candidate is worth far more than the risk of a crackout effort, and in many instances I can see the coin bringing next grade up prices anyway without a specific designation by one of the TPG's. >>
You're kidding, right? The big crackout artists live and breathe "risk" every day of their lives. And, if you think the upgrade sticker will make the coins that crackout artists target, (the ones with HUGE value spreads), suddenly worth the same as a coin holdered at the next grade up, you're looney.
Russ, NCNE >>
Yeah, will let me ask you, if you had a coin that received an upgrade sticker from CAC, would you risk cracking it out? >>
That's a rather silly - and irrelevant - question since I'm not a big crackout artist earning my living by assuming that level of risk. You can bet your ass, though, that an upgrade sticker is not going to stop those who are. They operate in an entirely different world than you or I. A world where high dollar risk is part and parcel to their every day lives.
Russ, NCNE >>
That's the whole point........if we are talking about high dollar risk.....then its a high dollar risk......at this point in the evolvement of coin grading, I would rather have an Albanese upgrade sticker coin than the same coin in a higher TPG slab ( much less the risk it wouldn't get upgraded).....unstickered. I think others will think the same too! Especially those who have dealt with Albanese before. >>
What you want, or what I want, or what "others" want doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Our opinions and feelings have zero impact on the big crackout guys. It's very naive to believe that they will suddenly become risk adverse when they see a sticker on the holder.
Russ, NCNE >>
I don't think it is naive at all.........I believe the market will become such that the crackout artists will have more desire to own an Albanese upgrade stickered coin than either 1) risk not having an upgrade and/or 2) will realize they can make just as much with the Albanese upgrade sticker as a coin with the TPG upgrade coin without the sticker. I think Albanese is that good and the coin market will come to realize it....even the crackout artists.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
First... just a simple observation... the Mad one must be having a tough time if the little critters have be reduced to drinking beer again or perhaps Martinis are out of style?
To be serious as one can be for a moment, I have taken a wait and see approach with respect to CAC. There are many conceptual things that I hope are being given the most serious consideration and I would rather give the folks involved in this the opportunity to work to get it right. I think the case has been made for why it is needed, and while success can be measured many ways, I remain optimistic that the basis for the need will not be lost in the implementation.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how CAC will HURT anyone .....
K >>
Have to agree. The evolution, if that's what is happening, of the concept, including this upgrade sticker thingie, is what is interesting. How the comments and feedback affect the plan, and the apparently informed info releases like this thread, are what I'm watching. Most interesting aspect so far: albajohn's ability to refrain from comment.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< Public Information compiled on the "Coin Consortium" (Collectors Acceptance Corporation or the "CAC")
Thank you, Goldbully. Very useful service you provided by compiling and posting the above! >>
Except, he didn't compile it.
Russ, NCNE
Russ 360 degrees: Keeping it Honest (you've seen Anderson Cooper on CNN, right?)
What did I miss? Well then, I guess ASSUME got the better of ME, but not U.
So, thanks to the ones who did compile it, and to those who contributed to it, and to this thread as well. I've seen y'all hashing this topic around before, and got a little traction on it today without having to dive back into the great archives.
Thanks for the correction - Goldbully, you still get credit for posting the compilation at an opportune moment.
Tradedollar, I ask again- clarify joe collector. You state it is a non-issue,joe won't be impacted. You further state the concept is simple, to many collectors are "buying crap". These statements seem to be at odds. I rather hoped you would read my post and answer in the spirit intended. General statements are not "simple". if the Endeavor is supporting joe collector and the HOBBY, then so state, and not limit the benefit to high end. My example would be that if I purchased a coin with guidance from RCNH, and I grant them the same respect for integrity and ethic that I acknowledge for the Endeavor under discussion, then what is the Endeavor doing for joe collector that isn't already being done by RCNH et al, save creating an artificial market,albeit another tier-a Ford transformed to a Mercury. Please present information that is beneficial to support the Endeavor in its' quest to improve the hobby. Regards and Respectfully, John Curlis P.S.-is the question by Russ answered-re. direct submission? This would be beneficial information.
<< <i>Tradedollar, I ask again- clarify joe collector. You state it is a non-issue,joe won't be impacted. You further state the concept is simple, to many collectors are "buying crap". These statements seem to be at odds. I rather hoped you would read my post and answer in the spirit intended. General statements are not "simple". if the Endeavor is supporting joe collector and the HOBBY, then so state, and not limit the benefit to high end. My example would be that if I purchased a coin with guidance from RCNH, and I grant them the same respect for integrity and ethic that I acknowledge for the Endeavor under discussion, then what is the Endeavor doing for joe collector that isn't already being done by RCNH et al, save creating an artificial market,albeit another tier-a Ford transformed to a Mercury. Please present information that is beneficial to support the Endeavor in its' quest to improve the hobby. Regards and Respectfully, John Curlis P.S.-is the question by Russ answered-re. direct submission? This would be beneficial information. >>
I guess it's "The hell with Joe."
Joe asks questions and Joe gets ignored. Good luck in your silly endeavor.
<< <i><< Public Information compiled on the "Coin Consortium" (Collectors Acceptance Corporation or the "CAC")
Thank you, Goldbully. Very useful service you provided by compiling and posting the above! >>
Except, he didn't compile it.
Russ, NCNE
Russ 360 degrees: Keeping it Honest (you've seen Anderson Cooper on CNN, right?)
What did I miss? Well then, I guess ASSUME got the better of ME, but not U.
So, thanks to the ones who did compile it, and to those who contributed to it, and to this thread as well. I've seen y'all hashing this topic around before, and got a little traction on it today without having to dive back into the great archives.
Thanks for the correction - Goldbully, you still get credit for posting the compilation at an opportune moment. >>
I appreciate that Tychojoe.
Next time I'll be more discerning.
Looking forward to seeing how this new "watchdog" grading group progresses.
Dealer and professional coin grader John Albanese leads a group of coin dealers financing the newly founded Collectors Acceptance Corp., which plans to certify that the grades of individual third-party graded coins meet CAC standards for premium quality within a numerical grade. CAC will also serve as a clearinghouse for wholesale sales of rare U.S., premium-quality coins to dealers willing to make a market in those coins. Fifteen to 20 dealers and major auction companies have infused money into the venture, Albanese told Coin World. CAC will begin offering its services Sept. 1.
Albanese said CAC will start with an initial capitalization of $10 million to acquire what will be the highest-quality coins within a specific numerical grade for a date, Mint mark and denomination, in third-party grading service holders, with the intent toward establishing and maintaining a market in those coins. Albanese said he currently has commitments of approximately $25 million, with the minimum commitment required being $100,000.
By applying the CAC sticker, CAC is backing that grade as meeting the CAC standards for which a market is being made, Albanese said. The CAC certification will assist dealers in cutting down the time necessary to locate premium-quality coins because that service will already have been done for them, he said. Albanese said currently the plan is to certify only Numismatic Guaranty Corp. and Professional Coin Grading Service encapsulated coins because the two firms are the only grading services that maintain published population reports. Albanese founded Numismatic Guaranty Corp., but no longer holds a financial interest in the coin grading firm. Some details public Albanese said his proposal is to provide, for a currently undisclosed fee, the fixing of a tamper-proof, hologram label to a third-party grading service holder if the coin in the holder meets CAC standards for premium quality within a numerical grade. Albanese said CAC is not another grading service. Dealers will be able to submit coins on behalf of themselves or collectors. Submitters of coins that don’t meet the CAC criteria for labeling will have half the fee rebated, Albanese said. CAC certifiers will not state why they reject certifying a particular coin for not meeting the criteria, he said. Albanese said CAC standards are still in development, as is the assemblage of the team of graders whose consensus will determine which coins will receive the CAC sticker. Albanese said he will be a full-time employee and the majority stockholder in the privately held company, and will also serve as the grading finalizer. CAC will not remove coins from holders, Albanese said. He said the CAC Web site, currently under construction, would allow owners of CAC-stickered coins to register them at the site and to know how many coins within a particular grade have been both certified and CAC-approved. The CAC certification will be available for both Mint State coins and coins in all circulated grades as well. CAC will certify circulated coins since for many early series, heavily circulated examples may be the finest known for that date, Mint mark and denomination, Albanese said. CAC will function as a clearinghouse for wholesale sales of rare U.S. coins to dealers willing to make a market in those coins and wanting premium-quality coins, Albanese said. CAC will also establish an electronic trading network for exclusive trading in CAC-certified coins, he said. CAC is not the first entity to certify premium-quality examples of certified coins. A number of dealers, including some who advertise in Coin World, use a "premium quality" designation in their ads for certified coins that in their opinion are better than other coins in the same grade for the same date, Mint mark and denomination, and charge prices accordingly. Rick Snow, from Eagle Eye Rare Coins in Tucson, Ariz., along with his business partner at the time, Brian Wagner, in early 1996 introduced the Eagle Eye Photo Seal. Snow and Wagner place a "seal of approval" on Flying Eagle and Indian Head cents that are considered exceptional. Forum buzz Albanese’s plan is already generating a buzz on at least two major online discussion forums for U.S. coins. Some collectors on the NGC discussion group, Collectors Society, at http://board .collectors-society.com, and at the U.S. Coin Forum operated by PCGS’s parent company, Collectors Universe, at http:// forums.collectors.com, have been discussing CAC and posing questions since mid-July. Some sort of announcement had been anticipated at the forums, based on the comments of a few individuals who have been vocal on the topic of grading. The founding of CAC became public when Doug Winter, a California dealer specializing in U.S. gold coins, announced his involvement in the project as a consultant, in the current newsletter for Doug Winters Numismatics. "John, like me, is discouraged to see how many coins have been ruined in recent years by doctoring and processing," Winter writes in his newsletter. Albanese told Coin World that roughly 5 percent of the certified coins on the market are dragging down the prices on the remainder of the market. Winter continued in his newsletter: "[Albanese is] also smart enough to know that two coins in the same holder [two different examples of the same date, Mint mark and denomination in a holder of the same grading service] can be worth significantly different amounts based on their originality and appearance. What he’s going to do is to create an organization that will examine any coin graded by a thirdparty grading service and if it adheres to a set of standards, it will be ‘blessed’ by John’s group. Having this seal of approval is going to be extremely important because John and a number of other dealers will be bidding on these approved coins." Mark Feld, a former NGC grader who is currently a dealer, will also act as a consultant to CAC. Feld, in a July 15 post on the NGC Collectors Society discussion site, said: "… John Albanese is not doing this for the money. … He is doing it because he doesn’t like what he sees going on in the coin industry and cares about collectors and the hobby’s future. Because of that, he will not feel pressure to make or keep large customers happy by being liberal on grading opinions. In fact, he has gone into this knowing in advance that many dealers will not like it." Albanese said he has only spoken briefly with NGC principal Mark Salzberg and has not approached PCGS or any other grading service as of July 20. David Hall, PCGS founder and Collectors Universe president, inserted his comments into the discussion on the PCGS online discussion. "If John starts a service and does a good job, I’m sure he’ll be as successful as he wants to be, though stopping coin doctoring and other coin fraud is a big gig," Hall wrote in his July 29 posting. "And if his service enables dealers (and collectors) to sell their coins for a premium, I’m sure dealers will use the service. If his service makes the coin market better, I’m personally all for it." PCGS President Ron Guth said he would not comment on CAC until he knows more about Albanese’s proposal. CW
It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!
<< <i>Since we are viewing your coin, we will ALSO let you know if the coin that you have is a lock upgrade by today's standards >>
That's a very broad and gutsy statement. Lock upgrade? >>
There are coins that are indeed lock upgrades. I own several, but would rather keep them in their current holders. You are correct in your questioning theterminology - which is why the word 'probable' was previously used. The problem is that several members seized upon the word probable and took that to mean a PQ coin. Nothing of the sort: lock upgrade, while not a perfect term, suits the situation so much better.
<< <i>Tradedollar, I ask again- clarify joe collector. You state it is a non-issue,joe won't be impacted. You further state the concept is simple, to many collectors are "buying crap". These statements seem to be at odds. I rather hoped you would read my post and answer in the spirit intended. General statements are not "simple". if the Endeavor is supporting joe collector and the HOBBY, then so state, and not limit the benefit to high end. My example would be that if I purchased a coin with guidance from RCNH, and I grant them the same respect for integrity and ethic that I acknowledge for the Endeavor under discussion, then what is the Endeavor doing for joe collector that isn't already being done by RCNH et al, save creating an artificial market,albeit another tier-a Ford transformed to a Mercury. Please present information that is beneficial to support the Endeavor in its' quest to improve the hobby. Regards and Respectfully, John Curlis P.S.-is the question by Russ answered-re. direct submission? This would be beneficial information. >>
I'm not sure I understand your question. But if you are asking is the CAC going to make a market in inexpensive circulated coins then my answer is not to my knowledge.
<< <i>There are coins that are indeed lock upgrades >>
Agreed, but this doesn't mean the grading services will see it this way on any certain day. >>
Agreed, which is why the term 'probable upgrade' was utilized. However, several postors confused this to mean simply a PQ [ie: shot upgrade] coin. The term 'lock upgrade', while technically imperfect, avoids that confusion.
<< <i>There are coins that are indeed lock upgrades >>
Agreed, but this doesn't mean the grading services will see it this way on any certain day. >>
Agreed, which is why the term 'probable upgrade' was utilized. However, several postors confused this to mean simply a PQ [ie: shot upgrade] coin. The term 'lock upgrade', while technically imperfect, avoids that confusion. >>
OK,
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
This will probably come across as.........................whatever, But IMO if you want to be a TPG then be one,Take the risk,Put up the $$ it takes to run an organization like PCGS or NGC, Who are you (CAC) folks anyway,I realize you have credentials, But do you have the track records that these 2 companies have as TPG's, To think you can 2nd guess these folks with your little "thumbs up or thumbs down" stickers " It sounds like another way for somebody to make $$ on the label (sticker) and not the coin which already happens too much now! Established folks like PCGS and NGC who do this for a living put there reputation on the line everyday,,Put your $$ and reputation on the line, become a TPG and pay your dues, and be in there for the long run as well as take on the responsibility of employing hundreds of people................just my 2 cents........
CAC..........in poker its called "ALL IN" or fold..............
<< <i>This will probably come across as.........................whatever, But IMO if you want to be a TPG then be one,Take the risk,Put up the $$ it takes to run an organization like PCGS or NGC, Who are you (CAC) folks anyway,I realize you have credentials, But do you have the track records that these 2 companies have as TPG's, To think you can 2nd guess these folks with your little "thumbs up or thumbs down" stickers " It sounds like another way for somebody to make $$ on the label (sticker) and not the coin which already happens too much now! Established folks like PCGS and NGC who do this for a living put there reputation on the line everyday,,Put your $$ and reputation on the line, become a TPG and pay your dues, and be in there for the long run as well as take on the responsibility of employing hundreds of people................just my 2 cents........
CAC..........in poker its called "ALL IN" or fold.............. >>
'All in' works every time.... until it doesn't. Real pros go 'all in' very rarely. Amateurs are the ones going 'all in' all the time.
tradedollarnut, I am not certain you have read both of my posts, but I am certain I have a reasonable average ability to ask questions that can be understood. Avoidance is a form of adversity that is not supportive of the statements you have posted. Your "answer" re. inexpensive ciculated coins is, first, in the eye of the beholder, and second, doesn't define the monetary restraint created by the use of "inexpensive". Is it your assumption that joe collector buys only inexpensive( I BELIEVE YOU INTENDED TO MEAN CHEAP/INSIGNIFICANT ETC.) coins, and is to be ignored by the Endeavor? WHAT IS THE BENEFIT TO THE AVERAGE COLLECTOR/HOBBY ENTHUSIAST THAT IS NOT AVAILABLE TO HIM FROM THE DEALERS THAT JOE COLLECTOR CURRENTLY BUYS FROM? WHAT IS THE VALUE OF THE STICKER? WHAT IS THE BENEFIT TO THE HOBBY AS A WHOLE? WHO WILL SUPPORT THE ENDEAVOR IN THE LONG RUN IF IT ISN'T JOE COLLECTOR? I would think you may want to contemplate what joe collector means, and not assume it means poor. I am joe collector. I invite you to visit and talk HOBBY while we review my "inexpensive" collection. You may acquire a different perspective of joe collector. I have always admired your trade dollar website. Maybe I could add to it. Regards and Respectfully, John Curlis
I already stated that CAC won't impact Joe Collector [as defined] either way. If you don't care for the definition of Joe Collector as stated and already answered twice before, then define Joe Collector as you wish so that I may re-answer your question.
Comments
<< <i>This post is a joke ; we don`t need to be told what 90% of us already know (what's P.Q) - we need to cull out the crap on the market >>
See, this is what the problem is- you speak of 90% of those who are on these boards. The reality is that that 90% makes up about 1% of the coin industry.
If CAC is doing this for the collectors, why have they been buying PQ coins to sticker? Who are they buying these coins from? So basicly they are making a market to sell the $10,000,000 in coins they have bought and stickered at an instant 40% markup?
<< <i>
Sincerely,
Unimpacted Joe
P.S. You are gracious by addressing the issues. We still owe PCGS and CU a great deal of gratitude for playing host. They don't deserve to have their graders insulted when the graders themselves are barred from responding. I do take certain offense to the words "incompetent graders". Lest we forget;
To err is human. Graders are employees and much is expected of them. >>
You will never get a answer to such a pointed question.
<< <i>A CAC stickered coin as an upgrade candidate is worth far more than the risk of a crackout effort, and in many instances I can see the coin bringing next grade up prices anyway without a specific designation by one of the TPG's. >>
You're kidding, right? The big crackout artists live and breathe "risk" every day of their lives. And, if you think the upgrade sticker will make the coins that crackout artists target, (the ones with HUGE value spreads), suddenly worth the same as a coin holdered at the next grade up, you're looney.
Russ, NCNE
Although I can't speak for the CAC, the answer should be obvious. First, CAC is not doing this only for the collectors. It's also a business, same as PCGS or your local hospital. Second, don't assume they're going to make 40%. I'm sure they had to pay significant premiums to acquire $10 million in PQ coins. If there's any "real money" to be made, it will be made later.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Thank you, Goldbully. Very useful service you provided by compiling and posting the above! I am little less worried now, having read Laura's whole-hearted approval. Really.
So, where is ziggy's Joe Collector model being addressed? It doesn't cover ALL collectors, sure. I have no data that says it even applies to a significant portion of collectors. But my sense is that it does cover a lot of us HERE.
Why would the price on a 1916-D in G or F change at all?
I've always found TDN's reasoning very clear, and so it is again when he explains his support for the CAC as Goldbully excerpted in the compilation post above. But can somebody explain how this new service WOULD NOT drive all prices up, taking a 1916-D in G or F for example? Is it really possible that the market which CAC will make for their stickered coins will operate without influence (pulling up the prices) on the common type and key coins?
<< <i>Public Information compiled on the "Coin Consortium" (Collectors Acceptance Corporation or the "CAC")
Thank you, Goldbully. Very useful service you provided by compiling and posting the above! >>
Except, he didn't compile it.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I've always found TDN's reasoning very clear, and so it is again when he explains his support for the CAC as Goldbully excerpted in the compilation post above. But can somebody explain how this new service WOULD NOT drive all prices up, taking a 1916-D in G or F for example? Is it really possible that the market which CAC will make for their stickered coins will operate without influence (pulling up the prices) on the common type and key coins? >>
I don't think they'd distort markets they aren't making too badly. But when TDN said the average middle-class schmuck collecting coins won't be affected, I asked him if I could take that to mean that CAC wouldn't be interested in making markets in (say) $500-$2,000 coins (often "high end" for collectors of moderate means), but didn't get a response that I saw.
If I knew they were only targeting high-end material (say $10,000 and up), then TDN would likely be right -- I see little impact to average collectors. But if they are going to start making markets in quality slabbed coins in three figures and low four-figures, the little guy (at least ones who buy slabbed coins) would seem to be inevitably impacted.
<< <i>
<< <i>Public Information compiled on the "Coin Consortium" (Collectors Acceptance Corporation or the "CAC")
Thank you, Goldbully. Very useful service you provided by compiling and posting the above! >>
Except, he didn't compile it.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ is correct.
I simply copied and pasted the home page of the CAC Website.
I'll edit my post to reflect this.
<< <i>I simply copied and pasted the home page of the CAC Website. >>
It's not the CAC web site. The site was put together by Thiggy.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I simply copied and pasted the home page of the CAC Website.
I'll edit my post to reflect this. >>
This isn't the CAC's web site. It's a private unaffiliated site compiling information about it.
<< <i>"If CAC is doing this for the collectors, why have they been buying PQ coins to sticker? Who are they buying these coins from? So basicly they are making a market to sell the $10,000,000 in coins they have bought and stickered at an instant 40% markup? " >>
I don't know where you get your information but CAC is NOT pre buying 10 million in coins, the company is NOT even in operation yet! The 10-25 million dollar is the funding amount for the company, which will also be used to fund the sight unseen bids of stickered coins. Oh- and the 40% markup sounds great for your purposes but is also not true, very unrealistic.
So, just so there is no mis understanding-
The information Mad marty posted is totally incorrect and has no basis in fact.
<< <i>
<< <i>A CAC stickered coin as an upgrade candidate is worth far more than the risk of a crackout effort, and in many instances I can see the coin bringing next grade up prices anyway without a specific designation by one of the TPG's. >>
You're kidding, right? The big crackout artists live and breathe "risk" every day of their lives. And, if you think the upgrade sticker will make the coins that crackout artists target, (the ones with HUGE value spreads), suddenly worth the same as a coin holdered at the next grade up, you're looney.
Russ, NCNE >>
Yeah, will let me ask you, if you had a coin that received an upgrade sticker from CAC, would you risk cracking it out?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>I simply copied and pasted the home page of the CAC Website.
I'll edit my post to reflect this. >>
This isn't the CAC's web site. It's a private unaffiliated site compiling information about it. >>
Duly noted Russ and Ziggy.....thanks for setting me straight.
Hopefully it will possible to crack out the dregs and get them into the lower grade holder, add the sticker with no loss.
Hmmm...that's a really good point! That seems plausible. Joe or Jane Collector could actually wind up paying less to acquire the acceptably average parts of his or her collection? Meanwhile, J.J. Collector's currently owned good but average coins decrease in value.
<< <i><< A CAC stickered coin as an upgrade candidate is worth far more than the risk of a crackout effort, and in many instances I can see the coin bringing next grade up prices anyway without a specific designation by one of the TPG's. >>
You're kidding, right? The big crackout artists live and breathe "risk" every day of their lives. And, if you think the upgrade sticker will make the coins that crackout artists target, (the ones with HUGE value spreads), suddenly worth the same as a coin holdered at the next grade up, you're looney.
Russ, NCNE >>
Yeah, will let me ask you, if you had a coin that received an upgrade sticker from CAC, would you risk cracking it out? >>
That's a rather silly - and irrelevant - question since I'm not a big crackout artist earning my living by assuming that level of risk. You can bet your ass, though, that an upgrade sticker is not going to stop those who are. They operate in an entirely different world than you or I. A world where high dollar risk is part and parcel to their every day lives.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Yeah, will let me ask you, if you had a coin that received an upgrade sticker from CAC, would you risk cracking it out? >>
Depends on how well I know the odds and how much money is at stake in an upgrade. Plus, if a coin is good enough to be considered a virtual lock upgrade, it shouldn't take more than 2-3 submissions before making the grade. Even so, there's enough risk in it that they would (understandably) expect to be rewarded well for taking that risk.
<< <i><< "If CAC is doing this for the collectors, why have they been buying PQ coins to sticker? Who are they buying these coins from? So basicly they are making a market to sell the $10,000,000 in coins they have bought and stickered at an instant 40% markup? " >>
I don't know where you get your information but CAC is NOT pre buying 10 million in coins, the company is NOT even in operation yet! The 10-25 million dollar is the funding amount for the company, which will also be used to fund the sight unseen bids of stickered coins. Oh- and the 40% markup sounds great for your purposes but is also not true, very unrealistic.
So, just so there is no mis understanding-
The information Mad marty posted is totally incorrect and has no basis in fact. >>
There has been an assertion that Coin World published an article stating that CAC was buying $10 million in coins for stickering. If that's the case, then perhaps you should contact them and let them know that their article has no basis in fact.
Russ, NCNE
That is not the CAC website.
The concept is real simple, folks - too many collectors are buying crap. Right now, they're getting away with having the faces fall off their puttied gold because it's an 'up market'. Sooner or later the market stops and it's time to pay the piper. Those that believe as I do, that it's better to pay a premium to buy high end coins because the grade on the holder limits the value vs the quality of the coin, are ALREADY paying premiums for quality. But when it comes time to sell, it's a hard sell because too many people are used to paying 10% in back of bid for 'just made it' slop. The CAC is simply redefining the marketplace and saying that we will put our money where our mouth is - if a coin is solid for the grade, we will make a market in it. We will provide instant 'sight unseen' bids for the coins we have already reviewed that meet our standard. Not PQ, not upgrade candidates - solid for the grade. Since we are viewing your coin, we will ALSO let you know if the coin that you have is a lock upgrade by today's standards. We will let you keep your coin in its old holder [which may be worth an additional premium to you due to stability] and still play the Registry at a current market grade. We won't punish you for having your coin in the wrong holder by not letting you put it on the Registry. All readily apparent advantages to the collector.
What isn't readily apparent is the fact that having the CAC in the marketplace has ALREADY caused a tightening of standards at the TPGs. NCS and its upgrade conduit has been cut back, which means less destruction of original coins. Hopefully, by having a market maker looking over their shoulders, the TPGs will take steps to further reduce the doctored and AT'd coins that are floating around out there. This will reduce the profit in messing with those coins, leading to fewer being ruined.
If you choose to throw your hands up in the air and believe that you will be paying more for the same quality, that is your choice. But most collectors are ALREADY paying for that quality in this market.
<< <i>What isn't readily apparent is the fact that having the CAC in the marketplace has ALREADY caused a tightening of standards at the TPGs. NCS and its upgrade conduit has been cut back, which means less destruction of original coins. Hopefully, by having a market maker looking over their shoulders, the TPGs will take steps to further reduce the doctored and AT'd coins that are floating around out there. This will reduce the profit in messing with those coins, leading to fewer being ruined.
If you choose to throw your hands up in the air and believe that you will be paying more for the same quality, that is your choice. But most collectors are ALREADY paying for that quality in this market. >>
I really hope you're right. But I remember that slabbing began some 20 years ago for many of the same reasons, and look today at how much more a quality slabbed coin will sell for than an equally quality raw coin.
Professional opinions that are accepted in the marketplace add value and cost to the coins they are attached to. The major TPGs have proven that. And if the market embraces CAC, I don't see why that wouldn't happen again.
To repeat, I really hope I'm wrong. If all this does is cause the price of crap to fall, I'm all for it. If it makes doctored coins virtually unmarketable and stops more doctoring, even better. But I suspect it will also lead to value inflation in the quality stuff, creating more of a premium than there is today and pricing more collectors out of the coins they want to have.
<< <i>
<< <i><< A CAC stickered coin as an upgrade candidate is worth far more than the risk of a crackout effort, and in many instances I can see the coin bringing next grade up prices anyway without a specific designation by one of the TPG's. >>
You're kidding, right? The big crackout artists live and breathe "risk" every day of their lives. And, if you think the upgrade sticker will make the coins that crackout artists target, (the ones with HUGE value spreads), suddenly worth the same as a coin holdered at the next grade up, you're looney.
Russ, NCNE >>
Yeah, will let me ask you, if you had a coin that received an upgrade sticker from CAC, would you risk cracking it out? >>
That's a rather silly - and irrelevant - question since I'm not a big crackout artist earning my living by assuming that level of risk. You can bet your ass, though, that an upgrade sticker is not going to stop those who are. They operate in an entirely different world than you or I. A world where high dollar risk is part and parcel to their every day lives.
Russ, NCNE >>
That's the whole point........if we are talking about high dollar risk.....then its a high dollar risk......at this point in the evolvement of coin grading, I would rather have an Albanese upgrade sticker coin than the same coin in a higher TPG slab ( much less the risk it wouldn't get upgraded).....unstickered. I think others will think the same too! Especially those who have dealt with Albanese before.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i><< << A CAC stickered coin as an upgrade candidate is worth far more than the risk of a crackout effort, and in many instances I can see the coin bringing next grade up prices anyway without a specific designation by one of the TPG's. >>
You're kidding, right? The big crackout artists live and breathe "risk" every day of their lives. And, if you think the upgrade sticker will make the coins that crackout artists target, (the ones with HUGE value spreads), suddenly worth the same as a coin holdered at the next grade up, you're looney.
Russ, NCNE >>
Yeah, will let me ask you, if you had a coin that received an upgrade sticker from CAC, would you risk cracking it out? >>
That's a rather silly - and irrelevant - question since I'm not a big crackout artist earning my living by assuming that level of risk. You can bet your ass, though, that an upgrade sticker is not going to stop those who are. They operate in an entirely different world than you or I. A world where high dollar risk is part and parcel to their every day lives.
Russ, NCNE >>
That's the whole point........if we are talking about high dollar risk.....then its a high dollar risk......at this point in the evolvement of coin grading, I would rather have an Albanese upgrade sticker coin than the same coin in a higher TPG slab ( much less the risk it wouldn't get upgraded).....unstickered. I think others will think the same too! Especially those who have dealt with Albanese before. >>
What you want, or what I want, or what "others" want doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Our opinions and feelings have zero impact on the big crackout guys. It's very naive to believe that they will suddenly become risk adverse when they see a sticker on the holder.
Russ, NCNE
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>
<< <i><< << A CAC stickered coin as an upgrade candidate is worth far more than the risk of a crackout effort, and in many instances I can see the coin bringing next grade up prices anyway without a specific designation by one of the TPG's. >>
You're kidding, right? The big crackout artists live and breathe "risk" every day of their lives. And, if you think the upgrade sticker will make the coins that crackout artists target, (the ones with HUGE value spreads), suddenly worth the same as a coin holdered at the next grade up, you're looney.
Russ, NCNE >>
Yeah, will let me ask you, if you had a coin that received an upgrade sticker from CAC, would you risk cracking it out? >>
That's a rather silly - and irrelevant - question since I'm not a big crackout artist earning my living by assuming that level of risk. You can bet your ass, though, that an upgrade sticker is not going to stop those who are. They operate in an entirely different world than you or I. A world where high dollar risk is part and parcel to their every day lives.
Russ, NCNE >>
That's the whole point........if we are talking about high dollar risk.....then its a high dollar risk......at this point in the evolvement of coin grading, I would rather have an Albanese upgrade sticker coin than the same coin in a higher TPG slab ( much less the risk it wouldn't get upgraded).....unstickered. I think others will think the same too! Especially those who have dealt with Albanese before. >>
What you want, or what I want, or what "others" want doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Our opinions and feelings have zero impact on the big crackout guys. It's very naive to believe that they will suddenly become risk adverse when they see a sticker on the holder.
Russ, NCNE >>
I don't think it is naive at all.........I believe the market will become such that the crackout artists will have more desire to own an Albanese upgrade stickered coin than either 1) risk not having an upgrade and/or 2) will realize they can make just as much with the Albanese upgrade sticker as a coin with the TPG upgrade coin without the sticker. I think Albanese is that good and the coin market will come to realize it....even the crackout artists.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
To be serious as one can be for a moment, I have taken a wait and see approach with respect to CAC. There are many conceptual things that I hope are being given the most serious consideration and I would rather give the folks involved in this the opportunity to work to get it right. I think the case has been made for why it is needed, and while success can be measured many ways, I remain optimistic that the basis for the need will not be lost in the implementation.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how CAC will HURT anyone .....
K >>
Have to agree. The evolution, if that's what is happening, of the concept, including this upgrade sticker thingie, is what is interesting. How the comments and feedback affect the plan, and the apparently informed info releases like this thread, are what I'm watching. Most interesting aspect so far: albajohn's ability to refrain from comment.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Thank you, Goldbully. Very useful service you provided by compiling and posting the above! >>
Except, he didn't compile it.
Russ, NCNE
Russ 360 degrees: Keeping it Honest (you've seen Anderson Cooper on CNN, right?)
What did I miss? Well then, I guess ASSUME got the better of ME, but not U.
So, thanks to the ones who did compile it, and to those who contributed to it, and to this thread as well. I've seen y'all hashing this topic around before, and got a little traction on it today without having to dive back into the great archives.
Thanks for the correction - Goldbully, you still get credit for posting the compilation at an opportune moment.
<< <i>Tradedollar, I ask again- clarify joe collector. You state it is a non-issue,joe won't be impacted. You further state the concept is simple, to many collectors are "buying crap". These statements seem to be at odds. I rather hoped you would read my post and answer in the spirit intended. General statements are not "simple". if the Endeavor is supporting joe collector and the HOBBY, then so state, and not limit the benefit to high end. My example would be that if I purchased a coin with guidance from RCNH, and I grant them the same respect for integrity and ethic that I acknowledge for the Endeavor under discussion, then what is the Endeavor doing for joe collector that isn't already being done by RCNH et al, save creating an artificial market,albeit another tier-a Ford transformed to a Mercury. Please present information that is beneficial to support the Endeavor in its' quest to improve the hobby. Regards and Respectfully, John Curlis P.S.-is the question by Russ answered-re. direct submission? This would be beneficial information. >>
I guess it's "The hell with Joe."
Joe asks questions and Joe gets ignored. Good luck in your silly endeavor.
<< <i><< Public Information compiled on the "Coin Consortium" (Collectors Acceptance Corporation or the "CAC")
Thank you, Goldbully. Very useful service you provided by compiling and posting the above! >>
Except, he didn't compile it.
Russ, NCNE
Russ 360 degrees: Keeping it Honest (you've seen Anderson Cooper on CNN, right?)
What did I miss? Well then, I guess ASSUME got the better of ME, but not U.
So, thanks to the ones who did compile it, and to those who contributed to it, and to this thread as well. I've seen y'all hashing this topic around before, and got a little traction on it today without having to dive back into the great archives.
Thanks for the correction - Goldbully, you still get credit for posting the compilation at an opportune moment.
I appreciate that Tychojoe.
Next time I'll be more discerning.
Looking forward to seeing how this new "watchdog" grading group progresses.
Remember NGC's use of the '*' add-on grade????
By Paul Gilkes COIN WORLD Staff
Dealer and professional coin grader John Albanese leads a group of coin dealers financing the newly founded Collectors Acceptance Corp., which plans to certify that the grades of individual third-party graded coins meet CAC standards for premium quality within a numerical grade.
CAC will also serve as a clearinghouse for wholesale sales of rare U.S., premium-quality coins to dealers willing to make a market in those coins.
Fifteen to 20 dealers and major auction companies have infused money into the venture, Albanese told Coin World. CAC will begin offering its services Sept. 1.
Albanese said CAC will start with an initial capitalization of $10 million to acquire what will be the highest-quality coins within a specific numerical grade for a date, Mint mark and denomination, in third-party grading service holders, with the intent toward establishing and maintaining a market in those coins. Albanese said he currently has commitments of approximately $25 million, with the minimum commitment required being $100,000.
By applying the CAC sticker, CAC is backing that grade as meeting the CAC standards for which a market is being made, Albanese said. The CAC certification will assist dealers in cutting down the time necessary to locate premium-quality coins because that service will already have been done for them, he said.
Albanese said currently the plan is to certify only Numismatic Guaranty Corp. and Professional Coin Grading Service encapsulated coins because the two firms are the only grading services that maintain published population reports. Albanese founded Numismatic Guaranty Corp., but no longer holds a financial interest in the coin grading firm.
Some details public
Albanese said his proposal is to provide, for a currently undisclosed fee, the fixing of a tamper-proof, hologram label to a third-party grading service holder if the coin in the holder meets CAC standards for premium quality within a numerical grade.
Albanese said CAC is not another grading service.
Dealers will be able to submit coins on behalf of themselves or collectors. Submitters of coins that don’t meet the CAC criteria for labeling will have half the fee rebated, Albanese said. CAC certifiers will not state why they reject certifying a particular coin for not meeting the criteria, he said.
Albanese said CAC standards are still in development, as is the assemblage of the team of graders whose consensus will determine which coins will receive the CAC sticker. Albanese said he will be a full-time employee and the majority stockholder in the privately held company, and will also serve as the grading finalizer.
CAC will not remove coins from holders, Albanese said. He said the CAC Web site, currently under construction, would allow owners of CAC-stickered coins to register them at the site and to know how many coins within a particular grade have been both certified and CAC-approved.
The CAC certification will be available for both Mint State coins and coins in all circulated grades as well. CAC will certify circulated coins since for many early series, heavily circulated examples may be the finest known for that date, Mint mark and denomination, Albanese said.
CAC will function as a clearinghouse for wholesale sales of rare U.S. coins to dealers willing to make a market in those coins and wanting premium-quality coins, Albanese said. CAC will also establish an electronic trading network for exclusive trading in CAC-certified coins, he said.
CAC is not the first entity to certify premium-quality examples of certified coins.
A number of dealers, including some who advertise in Coin World, use a "premium quality" designation in their ads for certified coins that in their opinion are better than other coins in the same grade for the same date, Mint mark and denomination, and charge prices accordingly.
Rick Snow, from Eagle Eye Rare Coins in Tucson, Ariz., along with his business partner at the time, Brian Wagner, in early 1996 introduced the Eagle Eye Photo Seal. Snow and Wagner place a "seal of approval" on Flying Eagle and Indian Head cents that are considered exceptional.
Forum buzz
Albanese’s plan is already generating a buzz on at least two major online discussion forums for U.S. coins.
Some collectors on the NGC discussion group, Collectors Society, at http://board .collectors-society.com, and at the U.S. Coin Forum operated by PCGS’s parent company, Collectors Universe, at http:// forums.collectors.com, have been discussing CAC and posing questions since mid-July.
Some sort of announcement had been anticipated at the forums, based on the comments of a few individuals who have been vocal on the topic of grading.
The founding of CAC became public when Doug Winter, a California dealer specializing in U.S. gold coins, announced his involvement in the project as a consultant, in the current newsletter for Doug Winters Numismatics.
"John, like me, is discouraged to see how many coins have been ruined in recent years by doctoring and processing," Winter writes in his newsletter.
Albanese told Coin World that roughly 5 percent of the certified coins on the market are dragging down the prices on the remainder of the market.
Winter continued in his newsletter: "[Albanese is] also smart enough to know that two coins in the same holder [two different examples of the same date, Mint mark and denomination in a holder of the same grading service] can be worth significantly different amounts based on their originality and appearance. What he’s going to do is to create an organization that will examine any coin graded by a thirdparty grading service and if it adheres to a set of standards, it will be ‘blessed’ by John’s group. Having this seal of approval is going to be extremely important because John and a number of other dealers will be bidding on these approved coins."
Mark Feld, a former NGC grader who is currently a dealer, will also act as a consultant to CAC. Feld, in a July 15 post on the NGC Collectors Society discussion site, said: "… John Albanese is not doing this for the money. … He is doing it because he doesn’t like what he sees going on in the coin industry and cares about collectors and the hobby’s future. Because of that, he will not feel pressure to make or keep large customers happy by being liberal on grading opinions. In fact, he has gone into this knowing in advance that many dealers will not like it."
Albanese said he has only spoken briefly with NGC principal Mark Salzberg and has not approached PCGS or any other grading service as of July 20.
David Hall, PCGS founder and Collectors Universe president, inserted his comments into the discussion on the PCGS online discussion.
"If John starts a service and does a good job, I’m sure he’ll be as successful as he wants to be, though stopping coin doctoring and other coin fraud is a big gig," Hall wrote in his July 29 posting. "And if his service enables dealers (and collectors) to sell their coins for a premium, I’m sure dealers will use the service. If his service makes the coin market better, I’m personally all for it."
PCGS President Ron Guth said he would not comment on CAC until he knows more about Albanese’s proposal. CW
<< <i>Since we are viewing your coin, we will ALSO let you know if the coin that you have is a lock upgrade by today's standards >>
That's a very broad and gutsy statement. Lock upgrade?
<< <i>TDN.....
<< <i>Since we are viewing your coin, we will ALSO let you know if the coin that you have is a lock upgrade by today's standards >>
That's a very broad and gutsy statement. Lock upgrade? >>
There are coins that are indeed lock upgrades. I own several, but would rather keep them in their current holders. You are correct in your questioning theterminology - which is why the word 'probable' was previously used. The problem is that several members seized upon the word probable and took that to mean a PQ coin. Nothing of the sort: lock upgrade, while not a perfect term, suits the situation so much better.
<< <i>Tradedollar, I ask again- clarify joe collector. You state it is a non-issue,joe won't be impacted. You further state the concept is simple, to many collectors are "buying crap". These statements seem to be at odds. I rather hoped you would read my post and answer in the spirit intended. General statements are not "simple". if the Endeavor is supporting joe collector and the HOBBY, then so state, and not limit the benefit to high end. My example would be that if I purchased a coin with guidance from RCNH, and I grant them the same respect for integrity and ethic that I acknowledge for the Endeavor under discussion, then what is the Endeavor doing for joe collector that isn't already being done by RCNH et al, save creating an artificial market,albeit another tier-a Ford transformed to a Mercury. Please present information that is beneficial to support the Endeavor in its' quest to improve the hobby. Regards and Respectfully, John Curlis P.S.-is the question by Russ answered-re. direct submission? This would be beneficial information. >>
I'm not sure I understand your question. But if you are asking is the CAC going to make a market in inexpensive circulated coins then my answer is not to my knowledge.
Apparently. What page?
<< <i>There are coins that are indeed lock upgrades >>
Agreed, but this doesn't mean the grading services will see it this way on any certain day.
<< <i>
<< <i>There are coins that are indeed lock upgrades >>
Agreed, but this doesn't mean the grading services will see it this way on any certain day. >>
Agreed, which is why the term 'probable upgrade' was utilized. However, several postors confused this to mean simply a PQ [ie: shot upgrade] coin. The term 'lock upgrade', while technically imperfect, avoids that confusion.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>There are coins that are indeed lock upgrades >>
Agreed, but this doesn't mean the grading services will see it this way on any certain day. >>
Agreed, which is why the term 'probable upgrade' was utilized. However, several postors confused this to mean simply a PQ [ie: shot upgrade] coin. The term 'lock upgrade', while technically imperfect, avoids that confusion. >>
OK,
<< <i>Here is the article.
By Paul Gilkes COIN WORLD Staff
CW >>
Thanks MM.......
This will probably come across as.........................whatever, But IMO if you want to be a TPG then be one,Take the risk,Put up the $$ it takes to run an organization like PCGS or NGC, Who are you (CAC) folks anyway,I realize you have credentials, But do you have the track records that these 2 companies have as TPG's, To think you can 2nd guess these folks with your little "thumbs up or thumbs down" stickers " It sounds like another way for somebody to make $$ on the label (sticker) and not the coin which already happens too much now! Established folks like PCGS and NGC who do this for a living put there reputation on the line everyday,,Put your $$ and reputation on the line, become a TPG and pay your dues, and be in there for the long run as well as take on the responsibility of employing hundreds of people................just my 2 cents........
CAC..........in poker its called "ALL IN" or fold..............
<< <i>This will probably come across as.........................whatever, But IMO if you want to be a TPG then be one,Take the risk,Put up the $$ it takes to run an organization like PCGS or NGC, Who are you (CAC) folks anyway,I realize you have credentials, But do you have the track records that these 2 companies have as TPG's, To think you can 2nd guess these folks with your little "thumbs up or thumbs down" stickers " It sounds like another way for somebody to make $$ on the label (sticker) and not the coin which already happens too much now! Established folks like PCGS and NGC who do this for a living put there reputation on the line everyday,,Put your $$ and reputation on the line, become a TPG and pay your dues, and be in there for the long run as well as take on the responsibility of employing hundreds of people................just my 2 cents........
CAC..........in poker its called "ALL IN" or fold.............. >>
'All in' works every time.... until it doesn't. Real pros go 'all in' very rarely. Amateurs are the ones going 'all in' all the time.