I would rather have an Albanese upgrade sticker coin than the same coin in a higher TPG slab ( much less the risk it wouldn't get upgraded).....unstickered.
I see your point, and also think collectors of modest ambitions will be quite content knowing that their great coin has the additional cache and flexibility that a lock-upgrade sticker provides. As for any risk in upgrading, isn't the lock-upgrade sticker based on a standard that when said coin is in fact in a higher slab, it should be a given for a new A or B "solid for the grade" sticker?
With the upgrade sticker, a collector doesn't need to take on new risks and incur new re-slabbing costs in order to participate in the other fun things we do with our coins -- I suppose you can wait with confidence to upgrade until a decision is made to sell it, and even then, there's a "lock" on getting the next A/B sticker. I think I understand those benefits a little better - at least for the collector.
But two of the very important points, together made by members such as Ziggy (squeezing the collector base irreparably), and by others members such as Russ (when tilted back and forth, certain stickers will chirp, "Crack Me Out") are unresolved, maybe recklessly so.
I do agree with the idea that if there's a market for giving better knowledge to collectors at the upper tier of rare coins, then there is opportunity for stickering the mid-tiers as well. Maybe as Rick Snow and TDN Bruce tentatively forecast, and as Ziggy hopes, If all this does is cause the price of crap to fall [and also stops more doctoring], I'm all for it too. Done with lots of forethought, informed by articulate members of DIVERSE GROUPS affected, and supplying collectors-at-large with accurate information, why couldn't price corrections come about rationally and over a two-to-five year period?
Soapbox: People here - and not just the big guns, but the vocal minority too - DO have the ability to make and influence the rare coin markets. That 90% of the members posting on the boards, said to be 1% of the collectors out there, might as well act on that for the future good of the hobby.
[some of you posters have really mastered the art of keeping a thread lively AND very useful by posting only a thought or few at a time. How do you do it?! Thanks for your patience! ]
Dealer has coin with grade X for sale @ $500. Dealer takes coin to CAC. CAC says, "Yes, coin is grade X. Please have a sticker." Dealer marks up price 40% to $700. Collector now pays $200 more for the exact same coin plus one sticker.
Hmmm....that isn't really clarifying things for me. Let's try it again:
Dealer has coin with grade X for sale @ $500. Dealer takes coin to CAC. CAC says, "Yes Yes! Coin is really grade X +1. Please have TWO stickers." Dealer marks price up to $1500. Collector now pays $1000 more for the exact same coin plus two stickers.
Nope, that didn't really clarify the benefits for me....let's try once more:
Dealer has coin with grade X for sale @ $500. Dealer takes coin to CAC. CAC says "No sticker for you!" Dealer marks price up to $500 plus the CAC grading fee Collector now pays $500 plus the CAC grading fee for the exact same coin.
Okay, so NOW I see how this benefits collectors and not dealers. Thanks for making the coin market a safer place.
There are two fundamental flaws in your understanding:
1. The CAC is really not going after the $500 coin market. 2. Collectors are already paying a premium for nicer coins. Some of these coins are not really nice, however, but are being sold as nice coins to collectors who do not know better.
The concept is real simple, folks - too many collectors are buying crap. Right now, they're getting away with having the faces fall off their puttied gold because it's an 'up market'. Sooner or later the market stops and it's time to pay the piper. Those that believe as I do, that it's better to pay a premium to buy high end coins because the grade on the holder limits the value vs the quality of the coin, are ALREADY paying premiums for quality. But when it comes time to sell, it's a hard sell because too many people are used to paying 10% in back of bid for 'just made it' slop. The CAC is simply redefining the marketplace and saying that we will put our money where our mouth is - if a coin is solid for the grade, we will make a market in it. We will provide instant 'sight unseen' bids for the coins we have already reviewed that meet our standard. Not PQ, not upgrade candidates - solid for the grade. Since we are viewing your coin, we will ALSO let you know if the coin that you have is a lock upgrade by today's standards. We will let you keep your coin in its old holder [which may be worth an additional premium to you due to stability] and still play the Registry at a current market grade. We won't punish you for having your coin in the wrong holder by not letting you put it on the Registry. All readily apparent advantages to the collector.
What isn't readily apparent is the fact that having the CAC in the marketplace has ALREADY caused a tightening of standards at the TPGs. NCS and its upgrade conduit has been cut back, which means less destruction of original coins. Hopefully, by having a market maker looking over their shoulders, the TPGs will take steps to further reduce the doctored and AT'd coins that are floating around out there. This will reduce the profit in messing with those coins, leading to fewer being ruined.
If you choose to throw your hands up in the air and believe that you will be paying more for the same quality, that is your choice. But most collectors are ALREADY paying for that quality in this market.
Good post TDN. I actually agree with it in it's entirety. I wish personally that you folks had chosen to list the failed cert#'s as a benefit to collectors, but I understand the decision not to based on how it would impact submissions. Best of luck, but it doesn't sound like you'll need it. Here's hoping the market stays solid for a few years to let the idea work unfettered.
Don
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Why not create a clearinghouse website for collectors to list the names of dealers who have sold them puttied coins? If a dealer doesn't want his name on the list, he makes good on the deal and takes back the coin. It's a pretty simple case of business ethics, no?
Stickering won't stop the natural corrosion process, nor will it stop people's attempts to halt or reverse the process. Nor will it stop collector's desire for nice coins, and the coin doctor's desire to fill that need.
So, for an extra 20% to 40%, the consortium will identify various new flavors and permutations of the TPG's slabs. For a few dedicated experts, maybe it will be helpful. For most, it will only cause more confusion and many more opportunities for fleecing the collector. Another tier of middlemen. Some middlemen can be helpful, most are not.
I've seldom seen so much fancy footwork, dancing around the issues.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
1. While I think it is unfortunate for us as a hobby to be in this situation, I admire what the CAC is doing and respect their decision to do so.
2. I believe initially that their intentions are true to the hobby.
3. For those who've said, I don't need someone to tell me my coin is "nice for the grade"; then why use any TPG?
4. Having another level of assurance on high end purchases is probably a good thing.
5. "Stickered" coins will bring the premium money; but likely for the coins that were bringing premium money anyway.
Who among us hasn't bought a coin at one time or another and later asked another collector whom we admire for their opinion on the purchase? This looks to be a formal way of documenting a second (or actually a third) opinion on the coin.
I hope it works out well for those involved and wish them the best. My only concern will be for the long term and the CAC's ability to keep their motives pure to the hobby and not at some point make it all about the money.
OK, feel free to flame away....... but before you do, if you're heavy in the financial market you'd better go turn on the news... looks to be a black wednesday.
<< <i>Who among us hasn't bought a coin at one time or another and later asked another collector whom we admire for their opinion on the purchase? >>
We do it here on the forum all the time. Someone buys a new coin, posts a picture and opinions are given. At shows Mark Feld would give his opinion on a coin for free!
Since CAC isn't doing moderns and I'm not buying $25,000 coin (But I haven't check my Lotto tickets yet) I don't really have a dog in this fight. I wish them well.
It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!
" The evaluators at CAC are professional numismatists.
So are the evaluators at PCGS, NGC, ANA, ICG, PCI, and SEGS.
None of the named services are perfect and neither will CAC, but it will give you an additional opinion."
Right Julian, and you hit on the real issue which is grading is subjective to some degree based on the grader. So if an expertly doctored copper in an OGH or rattler hasn't turned over time because it was done right, will it be detected by the CAC? Probably not. How many 150 year old seated coins that are brilliant will be given the seal of approval, there are lots of them out there, and some are nice, but lets be honest, haven't most of them had at least one dip in that time? Will this be considered "market acceptable" by the CAC? I guess if I understand this correctly, they will have reserves to buy something back if they goof. I'm still on the fence and will wait to see how this all plays out.
Furthermore -would the CAC even have got created if the forum hadn`t kicked out people like M.Feld and Laura ???
Since leaving the forum (and before), M. Feld and Laura did not flood the market with overgraded and doctored coins. I think that the CAC, or some other entity with similar intent, was inevtiable.
<< <i>So this great man and his group of experts form this CAC -
......wait a second ........, this same great man also founded NGC , which eroded into a company that flooded the market
with thousands of overgraded p.o.s that this new CAC is going to clean up ??????
what will prevent the CAC from going down the same road as NGC ?
Furthermore -would the CAC even have got created if the forum hadn`t kicked out people like M.Feld and Laura ??? >>
Don't worry. History never repeats itself.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>...the topic is the CAC ; I do not believe it would have ever been started had a few of the principles not gotten the boot ..... >>
I don't believe that "getting revenge against PCGS for bamming us" is the type of business plan which would entice deep-pocketed investors to sink $25 million into the venture.
.......there once was a tribe of coin collectors , who expelled those who spoke out or made trouble . The expelled tribes people gathered together and formed a tribe of their own .
One day they came back and massacred the original tribes people and took all the coins for themselves .
<< <i>Furthermore -would the CAC even have got created if the forum hadn`t kicked out people like M.Feld and Laura ??? >>
What does this have to do with anything? How are these concepts related in your mind? >>
apparently not in the same way as yours >>
I have it on very good authority that the CAC was in the works long before Mark and Laura were driven from the Emerald City. We can put that theory to rest.
Cac..."We don't do Moderns"...!!! ...Does that include Buffs ,Mercs.,Old Lincolns,Slq,Walkers..No Kennedys'.....?????..How about Sacs' like the Cheerios......?!?! Where is the line drawn....??? "Money is no object" ....."I want that coin"...."It will complete my collection".... It's fine and dandy to get rid of the coin doctors as they claim...But it's just being two faced..!!!..Buy the crap and melt it for bullion...!!
"We will let you keep your coin in its old holder [which may be worth an additional premium to you due to stability] and still play the Registry at a current market grade. We won't punish you for having your coin in the wrong holder by not letting you put it on the Registry"
Maybe I missed it (This thread is physically getting HUGE afterall) , but could you please elaborate on this?
Specifically: Will CAC have its own Set Registry competition? Or does CAC have or plan to have an agreement with PCGS that stickies will carry more weight in the registry than non-stickies?
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty and they're cold. I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole." Mary
<< <i>"We will let you keep your coin in its old holder [which may be worth an additional premium to you due to stability] and still play the Registry at a current market grade. We won't punish you for having your coin in the wrong holder by not letting you put it on the Registry"
Maybe I missed it (This thread is physically getting HUGE afterall) , but could you please elaborate on this?
Specifically: Will CAC have its own Set Registry competition? Or does CAC have or plan to have an agreement with PCGS that stickies will carry more weight in the registry than non-stickies? >>
I believe TDN said that CAC will have it's own Registry. That way, coins that are upgrade potentials can be treated as the next higher grade without having to have it regraded.
I have stayed out of this CAC debate since the beginning. However, I do have a question:
Why is $25,000,000 needed to start a company that puts stickers on slabs? With advertising, office overhead, salaries, etc., the start-up cost should be a fraction of the quoted $25M. Please explain this to me.
<< <i>I have stayed out of this CAC debate since the beginning. However, I do have a question:
Why is $25,000,000 needed to start a company that puts stickers on slabs? With advertising, office overhead, salaries, etc., the start-up cost should be a fraction of the quoted $25M. Please explain this to me. >>
Because CAC is putting its money behind its opinion and making an active market in the coins it approves.
<< <i>I have stayed out of this CAC debate since the beginning. However, I do have a question:
Why is $25,000,000 needed to start a company that puts stickers on slabs? With advertising, office overhead, salaries, etc., the start-up cost should be a fraction of the quoted $25M. Please explain this to me. >>
Because CAC is putting its money behind its opinion and making an active market in the coins it approves. >>
On man, that is the best part!
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I have stayed out of this CAC debate since the beginning. However, I do have a question:
Why is $25,000,000 needed to start a company that puts stickers on slabs? With advertising, office overhead, salaries, etc., the start-up cost should be a fraction of the quoted $25M. Please explain this to me. >>
Because CAC is putting its money behind its opinion and making an active market in the coins it approves. >>
Is that another way of saying you need capital to make offers/purchase the coins that get sent in by non CAC dealers that get the A/B sticker?
Because CAC is putting its money behind its opinion and making an active market in the coins it approves.
Now I am really confused. I thought the CAC would be similar to a TPG. Are you saying that CAC as an entity will not only sticker coins, but also purchase them? It seems to me that the "active market" would automatically be created if dealers and collectors liked the stickers and the market could be comprised of anyone. So will CAC have a booth at major shows with coins for sale?
<< <i>I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how CAC will HURT anyone .....
K >>
Frankly, I don't think the fundamental concept of a sticker on coins that are solid for the grade will hurt anybody. It certainly will have zero impact on me personally. My concern is with this new "upgrade sticker" that has been thrown in to the mix. I see it as potentially problematic on multiple levels. One, as I've already mentioned, is that it identifies coins for crackout artists. Another, and there is no doubt it will happen, is collectors who try their coins for upgrade, fail, and then come back on the CAC raising a stink.
For now, at least, I think they should just stick to the initial simple concept.
I've missed all this sticker stuff so I don't get it. PCGS guarantees the authenticity of the coin, and they guarantee the grade of it as well. PCGS backs this guarantee up with money. Putting a sticker on a slab will guarantee me (a collector) what? How will they back that guarantee? Why should I pay more for a coin with a sticker on it?
I hate to say this, but all I see happening here is coin dealers screwing newcomers & novice collectors by charging 10 to 30% more for a coin slab with a sticker on it.
<< <i>Putting a sticker on a slab will guarantee me (a collector) what? How will they back that guarantee? Why should I pay more for a coin with a sticker on it? >>
They plan to back the guarantee by a promise to buy stickered coins for at least a certain minimum price for the grade, sight unseen, as I understand it.
<< <i>I hate to say this, but all I see happening here is coin dealers screwing newcomers & novice collectors by charging 10 to 30% more for a coin slab with a sticker on it. >>
This won't be screwing newcomers and novices. Since many of them don't know how to evaluate coins, this might make them pay a little more, but that's better than getting burned by overpaying for crap. I think this is a net bonus for people who don't know how to evaluate coins very well. Who could potentially get hurt are the more advanced collectors who don't need help identifying great coins, as the likelihood is that they will be paying more for the extra professional opinions they don't need.
<< <i>I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how CAC will HURT anyone .....
K >>
Frankly, I don't think the fundamental concept of a sticker on coins that are solid for the grade will hurt anybody. It certainly will have zero impact on me personally. My concern is with this new "upgrade sticker" that has been thrown in to the mix. I see it as potentially problematic on multiple levels. One, as I've already mentioned, is that it identifies coins for crackout artists. Another, and there is no doubt it will happen, is collectors who try their coins for upgrade, fail, and then come back on the CAC raising a stink.
For now, at least, I think they should just stick to the initial simple concept.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ - the crackout artists hardly need a sticker on a lock upgrade coin to identify an opportunity. On the other hand, an heir or novice collector might not know what they have without that sticker. You are making a mountain out of a molehill here.
...coin collecting is supposed to be fun , what fun where their be for collectors who get their lovingly assembled sets back from the CAC with many of the coins non-sticker-ed? What will that do to their desire to keep on collecting ?
I remember distinctly when PCGS first formed -they were so tight in grading ; they under graded EVERY SINGLE COIN FROM MY SET . I was so distraught and crushed , I drifted away from collecting for years
<< <i>...coin collecting is supposed to be fun , what fun where their be for collectors who get their lovingly assembeled sets back from the CAC with many of the coins non-stickered? What will that do to their desire to keep on collecting ?
I remember distinctly when PCGS first formed -they were so tight in grading ; they undergraded EVERY SINGLE COIN FROM MY SET . I was so distraught and crushed , I drifted away from collecting for years >>
What fun is there for collectors who go to sell a coin they bought back to a dealer and he doesn't really want to buy it cuz it's not nice for the grade. Might he not be distraught and crushed and drift away from collecting for years?
At least with a stickered coin there will be an instantly liquid market available.
<< <i>Russ - the crackout artists hardly need a sticker on a lock upgrade coin to identify an opportunity. On the other hand, an heir or novice collector might not know what they have without that sticker. You are making a mountain out of a molehill here. >>
Oh, I can see it now. Walking into the coin shop Homer say's "My Grandpa died and left me this coin. It's in this plastic case that says $1 PCGS 1795 2 Leaves, VF20 coin." The coin dealer say's "I'll give $1,000 for it. Homer say's "What about this CAC sticker here?" Dealer say's rubbing the sticker "Hum, won't come off. I'll give you $900." "SOLD! Homer say's while daydreaming of swimming in a vat of Duff Beer.
<< <i>Russ - the crackout artists hardly need a sticker on a lock upgrade coin to identify an opportunity. On the other hand, an heir or novice collector might not know what they have without that sticker. You are making a mountain out of a molehill here. >>
Oh, I can see it now. Walking into the coin shop Homer say's "My Grandpa died and left me this coin. It's in this plastic case that says $1 PCGS 1795 2 Leaves, VF20 coin." The coin dealer say's "I'll give $1,000 for it. Homer say's "What about this CAC sticker here?" Dealer say's rubbing the sticker "Hum, won't come off. I'll give you $900." "SOLD! Homer say's while daydreaming of swimming in a vat of Duff Beer. >>
Cool. The discussion has degenerated to beer induced fantasy.
What price guide will CAC use when it buys a stickered coin? Bluesheet bid? Bluesheet ask? Greysheet bid? Greysheet ask? Or something altogether different?
So, what good is yet another "Opinion" and how long before this too has a Black Eye? Grading is subjective, right?
With NO disrespect aimed towards ANYONE, regardless who's Name is involved, who is to say that this sticker man's eye is better than the graders' and how long before this leads to corruption and people being paid off?
All this does is open yet another door for more Scandal! The more it goes the less I like the idea. I don't need anyone picking PQ coins for me. I do it myself. Geeeez!
<< <i>What price guide will CAC use when it buys a stickered coin? Bluesheet bid? Bluesheet ask? Greysheet bid? Greysheet ask? Or something altogether different? >>
Stickersheet bid ?
ED .....................................................
Comments
I see your point, and also think collectors of modest ambitions will be quite content knowing that their great coin has the additional cache and flexibility that a lock-upgrade sticker provides. As for any risk in upgrading, isn't the lock-upgrade sticker based on a standard that when said coin is in fact in a higher slab, it should be a given for a new A or B "solid for the grade" sticker?
With the upgrade sticker, a collector doesn't need to take on new risks and incur new re-slabbing costs in order to participate in the other fun things we do with our coins -- I suppose you can wait with confidence to upgrade until a decision is made to sell it, and even then, there's a "lock" on getting the next A/B sticker. I think I understand those benefits a little better - at least for the collector.
But two of the very important points, together made by members such as Ziggy (squeezing the collector base irreparably), and by others members such as Russ (when tilted back and forth, certain stickers will chirp, "Crack Me Out") are unresolved, maybe recklessly so.
I do agree with the idea that if there's a market for giving better knowledge to collectors at the upper tier of rare coins, then there is opportunity for stickering the mid-tiers as well. Maybe as Rick Snow and TDN Bruce tentatively forecast, and as Ziggy hopes, If all this does is cause the price of crap to fall [and also stops more doctoring], I'm all for it too. Done with lots of forethought, informed by articulate members of DIVERSE GROUPS affected, and supplying collectors-at-large with accurate information, why couldn't price corrections come about rationally and over a two-to-five year period?
Soapbox: People here - and not just the big guns, but the vocal minority too - DO have the ability to make and influence the rare coin markets. That 90% of the members posting on the boards, said to be 1% of the collectors out there, might as well act on that for the future good of the hobby.
[some of you posters have really mastered the art of keeping a thread lively AND very useful by posting only a thought or few at a time. How do you do it?! Thanks for your patience!
<< <i>But who's gonna sticker the CACs sticker?
The sticker needs to be slabbed!
Dealer has coin with grade X for sale @ $500.
Dealer takes coin to CAC.
CAC says, "Yes, coin is grade X. Please have a sticker."
Dealer marks up price 40% to $700.
Collector now pays $200 more for the exact same coin plus one sticker.
Hmmm....that isn't really clarifying things for me. Let's try it again:
Dealer has coin with grade X for sale @ $500.
Dealer takes coin to CAC.
CAC says, "Yes Yes! Coin is really grade X +1. Please have TWO stickers."
Dealer marks price up to $1500.
Collector now pays $1000 more for the exact same coin plus two stickers.
Nope, that didn't really clarify the benefits for me....let's try once more:
Dealer has coin with grade X for sale @ $500.
Dealer takes coin to CAC.
CAC says "No sticker for you!"
Dealer marks price up to $500 plus the CAC grading fee
Collector now pays $500 plus the CAC grading fee for the exact same coin.
Okay, so NOW I see how this benefits collectors and not dealers. Thanks for making the coin market a safer place.
Dealer has coin with grade X for sale @ $500.
...
There are two fundamental flaws in your understanding:
1. The CAC is really not going after the $500 coin market.
2. Collectors are already paying a premium for nicer coins. Some of these coins are not really nice, however, but are being sold as nice coins to collectors who do not know better.
What isn't readily apparent is the fact that having the CAC in the marketplace has ALREADY caused a tightening of standards at the TPGs. NCS and its upgrade conduit has been cut back, which means less destruction of original coins. Hopefully, by having a market maker looking over their shoulders, the TPGs will take steps to further reduce the doctored and AT'd coins that are floating around out there. This will reduce the profit in messing with those coins, leading to fewer being ruined.
If you choose to throw your hands up in the air and believe that you will be paying more for the same quality, that is your choice. But most collectors are ALREADY paying for that quality in this market.
Good post TDN. I actually agree with it in it's entirety. I wish personally that you folks had chosen to list the failed cert#'s as a benefit to collectors, but I understand the decision not to based on how it would impact submissions. Best of luck, but it doesn't sound like you'll need it. Here's hoping the market stays solid for a few years to let the idea work unfettered.
Don
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Stickering won't stop the natural corrosion process, nor will it stop people's attempts to halt or reverse the process. Nor will it stop collector's desire for nice coins, and the coin doctor's desire to fill that need.
So, for an extra 20% to 40%, the consortium will identify various new flavors and permutations of the TPG's slabs. For a few dedicated experts, maybe it will be helpful. For most, it will only cause more confusion and many more opportunities for fleecing the collector. Another tier of middlemen. Some middlemen can be helpful, most are not.
I've seldom seen so much fancy footwork, dancing around the issues.
I knew it would happen.
1. While I think it is unfortunate for us as a hobby to be in this situation, I admire what the CAC is doing and respect their decision to do so.
2. I believe initially that their intentions are true to the hobby.
3. For those who've said, I don't need someone to tell me my coin is "nice for the grade"; then why use any TPG?
4. Having another level of assurance on high end purchases is probably a good thing.
5. "Stickered" coins will bring the premium money; but likely for the coins that were bringing premium money anyway.
Who among us hasn't bought a coin at one time or another and later asked another collector whom we admire for their opinion on the purchase? This looks to be a formal way of documenting a second (or actually a third) opinion on the coin.
I hope it works out well for those involved and wish them the best. My only concern will be for the long term and the CAC's ability to keep their motives pure to the hobby and not at some point make it all about the money.
OK, feel free to flame away....... but before you do, if you're heavy in the financial market you'd better go turn on the news... looks to be a black wednesday.
Regards,
Richard
<< <i>Who among us hasn't bought a coin at one time or another and later asked another collector whom we admire for their opinion on the purchase? >>
We do it here on the forum all the time. Someone buys a new coin, posts a picture and opinions are given. At shows Mark Feld would give his opinion on a coin for free!
Since CAC isn't doing moderns and I'm not buying $25,000 coin (But I haven't check my Lotto tickets yet) I don't really have a dog in this fight. I wish them well.
" The evaluators at CAC are professional numismatists.
So are the evaluators at PCGS, NGC, ANA, ICG, PCI, and SEGS.
None of the named services are perfect and neither will CAC, but it will give you an additional opinion."
Right Julian, and you hit on the real issue which is grading is subjective to some degree based on the grader. So if an expertly doctored copper in an OGH or rattler hasn't turned over time because it was done right, will it be detected by the CAC? Probably not. How many 150 year old seated coins that are brilliant will be given the seal of approval, there are lots of them out there, and some are nice, but lets be honest, haven't most of them had at least one dip in that time? Will this be considered "market acceptable" by the CAC? I guess if I understand this correctly, they will have reserves to buy something back if they goof. I'm still on the fence and will wait to see how this all plays out.
John
......wait a second ........, this same great man also founded NGC , which eroded into a company that flooded the market
with thousands of overgraded p.o.s that this new CAC is going to clean up ??????
what will prevent the CAC from going down the same road as NGC ?
Furthermore -would the CAC even have got created if the forum hadn`t kicked out people like M.Feld and Laura ???
Since leaving the forum (and before), M. Feld and Laura did not flood the market with overgraded and doctored coins. I think that the CAC, or some other entity with similar intent, was inevtiable.
<< <i>Furthermore -would the CAC even have got created if the forum hadn`t kicked out people like M.Feld and Laura ??? >>
What does this have to do with anything? How are these concepts related in your mind?
<< <i>What does this have to do with anything? How are these concepts related in your mind? >>
Revenge against PCGS? I don't buy it, but I can only assume that's what's being suggested here.
<< <i>So this great man and his group of experts form this CAC -
......wait a second ........, this same great man also founded NGC , which eroded into a company that flooded the market
with thousands of overgraded p.o.s that this new CAC is going to clean up ??????
what will prevent the CAC from going down the same road as NGC ?
Furthermore -would the CAC even have got created if the forum hadn`t kicked out people like M.Feld and Laura ??? >>
Don't worry. History never repeats itself.
<< <i>
<< <i>What does this have to do with anything? How are these concepts related in your mind? >>
Revenge against PCGS? I don't buy it, but I can only assume that's what's being suggested here. >>
So John Albanese raised $25 million dollars to avenge Feld and Laura? I hear he's a great guy, but I do not think he's THAT great!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>What does this have to do with anything? How are these concepts related in your mind? >>
Revenge against PCGS? I don't buy it, but I can only assume that's what's being suggested here. >>
So John Albanese raised $25 million dollars to avenge Feld and Laura? I hear he's a great guy, but I do not think he's THAT great!
Make that $50 million if you and Langacre get bammed!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Furthermore -would the CAC even have got created if the forum hadn`t kicked out people like M.Feld and Laura ??? >>
What does this have to do with anything? How are these concepts related in your mind? >>
apparently not in the same way as yours
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Furthermore -would the CAC even have got created if the forum hadn`t kicked out people like M.Feld and Laura ??? >>
What does this have to do with anything? How are these concepts related in your mind? >>
apparently not in the same way as yours >>
Should I try to guess what you meant?
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<< <i>What does this have to do with anything? How are these concepts related in your mind? >>
Revenge against PCGS? I don't buy it, but I can only assume that's what's being suggested here. >>
So John Albanese raised $25 million dollars to avenge Feld and Laura? I hear he's a great guy, but I do not think he's THAT great!
Make that $50 million if you and Langacre get bammed!!!
..........that be a funny one for sure ! you still got it Marty !
<< <i>..........that be a funny one for sure ! you still got it Marty ! >>
Never underestimate the weenie coins and the rubber chicken.
<< <i>...the topic is the CAC ; I do not believe it would have ever been started had a few of the principles not gotten the boot ..... >>
I don't believe that "getting revenge against PCGS for bamming us" is the type of business plan which would entice deep-pocketed investors to sink $25 million into the venture.
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<< <i>Furthermore -would the CAC even have got created if the forum hadn`t kicked out people like M.Feld and Laura ??? >>
What does this have to do with anything? How are these concepts related in your mind? >>
apparently not in the same way as yours >>
Should I try to guess what you meant? >>
...the topic is the CAC ; I do not believe it would have ever been started had a few of the principles not gotten the boot .....
One day they came back and massacred the original tribes people and took all the coins for themselves .
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<< <i>Furthermore -would the CAC even have got created if the forum hadn`t kicked out people like M.Feld and Laura ??? >>
What does this have to do with anything? How are these concepts related in your mind? >>
apparently not in the same way as yours >>
I have it on very good authority that the CAC was in the works long before Mark and Laura were driven from the Emerald City. We can put that theory to rest.
...Does that include Buffs ,Mercs.,Old Lincolns,Slq,Walkers..No Kennedys'.....?????..How about Sacs' like the Cheerios......?!?!
Where is the line drawn....???
"Money is no object" ....."I want that coin"...."It will complete my collection"....
It's fine and dandy to get rid of the coin doctors as they claim...But it's just being two faced..!!!..Buy the crap and melt it for bullion...!!
Maybe I missed it (This thread is physically getting HUGE afterall) , but could you please elaborate on this?
Specifically: Will CAC have its own Set Registry competition? Or does CAC have or plan to have an agreement with PCGS that stickies will carry more weight in the registry than non-stickies?
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>"We will let you keep your coin in its old holder [which may be worth an additional premium to you due to stability] and still play the Registry at a current market grade. We won't punish you for having your coin in the wrong holder by not letting you put it on the Registry"
Maybe I missed it (This thread is physically getting HUGE afterall) , but could you please elaborate on this?
Specifically: Will CAC have its own Set Registry competition? Or does CAC have or plan to have an agreement with PCGS that stickies will carry more weight in the registry than non-stickies? >>
I believe TDN said that CAC will have it's own Registry. That way, coins that are upgrade potentials can be treated as the next higher grade without having to have it regraded.
I have stayed out of this CAC debate since the beginning. However, I do have a question:
Why is $25,000,000 needed to start a company that puts stickers on slabs? With advertising, office overhead, salaries, etc., the start-up cost should be a fraction of the quoted $25M. Please explain this to me.
<< <i>I have stayed out of this CAC debate since the beginning. However, I do have a question:
Why is $25,000,000 needed to start a company that puts stickers on slabs? With advertising, office overhead, salaries, etc., the start-up cost should be a fraction of the quoted $25M. Please explain this to me. >>
Because CAC is putting its money behind its opinion and making an active market in the coins it approves.
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<< <i>I have stayed out of this CAC debate since the beginning. However, I do have a question:
Why is $25,000,000 needed to start a company that puts stickers on slabs? With advertising, office overhead, salaries, etc., the start-up cost should be a fraction of the quoted $25M. Please explain this to me. >>
Because CAC is putting its money behind its opinion and making an active market in the coins it approves. >>
On man, that is the best part!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
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<< <i>I have stayed out of this CAC debate since the beginning. However, I do have a question:
Why is $25,000,000 needed to start a company that puts stickers on slabs? With advertising, office overhead, salaries, etc., the start-up cost should be a fraction of the quoted $25M. Please explain this to me. >>
Because CAC is putting its money behind its opinion and making an active market in the coins it approves. >>
Is that another way of saying you need capital to make offers/purchase the coins that get sent in by non CAC dealers that get the A/B sticker?
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
Because CAC is putting its money behind its opinion and making an active market in the coins it approves.
Now I am really confused. I thought the CAC would be similar to a TPG. Are you saying that CAC as an entity will not only sticker coins, but also purchase them? It seems to me that the "active market" would automatically be created if dealers and collectors liked the stickers and the market could be comprised of anyone. So will CAC have a booth at major shows with coins for sale?
<< <i>I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how CAC will HURT anyone .....
K >>
Frankly, I don't think the fundamental concept of a sticker on coins that are solid for the grade will hurt anybody. It certainly will have zero impact on me personally. My concern is with this new "upgrade sticker" that has been thrown in to the mix. I see it as potentially problematic on multiple levels. One, as I've already mentioned, is that it identifies coins for crackout artists. Another, and there is no doubt it will happen, is collectors who try their coins for upgrade, fail, and then come back on the CAC raising a stink.
For now, at least, I think they should just stick to the initial simple concept.
Russ, NCNE
PCGS guarantees the authenticity of the coin, and they guarantee the grade of it as well. PCGS backs this guarantee up with money.
Putting a sticker on a slab will guarantee me (a collector) what? How will they back that guarantee? Why should I pay more for a coin with a sticker on it?
I hate to say this, but all I see happening here is coin dealers screwing newcomers & novice collectors by charging 10 to 30% more for a coin slab with a sticker on it.
<< <i>Putting a sticker on a slab will guarantee me (a collector) what? How will they back that guarantee? Why should I pay more for a coin with a sticker on it? >>
They plan to back the guarantee by a promise to buy stickered coins for at least a certain minimum price for the grade, sight unseen, as I understand it.
<< <i>I hate to say this, but all I see happening here is coin dealers screwing newcomers & novice collectors by charging 10 to 30% more for a coin slab with a sticker on it. >>
This won't be screwing newcomers and novices. Since many of them don't know how to evaluate coins, this might make them pay a little more, but that's better than getting burned by overpaying for crap. I think this is a net bonus for people who don't know how to evaluate coins very well. Who could potentially get hurt are the more advanced collectors who don't need help identifying great coins, as the likelihood is that they will be paying more for the extra professional opinions they don't need.
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<< <i>I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how CAC will HURT anyone .....
K >>
Frankly, I don't think the fundamental concept of a sticker on coins that are solid for the grade will hurt anybody. It certainly will have zero impact on me personally. My concern is with this new "upgrade sticker" that has been thrown in to the mix. I see it as potentially problematic on multiple levels. One, as I've already mentioned, is that it identifies coins for crackout artists. Another, and there is no doubt it will happen, is collectors who try their coins for upgrade, fail, and then come back on the CAC raising a stink.
For now, at least, I think they should just stick to the initial simple concept.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ - the crackout artists hardly need a sticker on a lock upgrade coin to identify an opportunity. On the other hand, an heir or novice collector might not know what they have without that sticker. You are making a mountain out of a molehill here.
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<< <i>Something smells and it isn't my shorts. >>
That's not going to win you any debating contests. >>
I'm not debating anyone or anything. My mind is made up.
<< <i>Something smells and it isn't my shorts. >>
That's not going to win you any debating contests.
I remember distinctly when PCGS first formed -they were so tight in grading ; they under graded EVERY SINGLE COIN FROM MY SET . I was so distraught and crushed , I drifted away from collecting for years
<< <i>...coin collecting is supposed to be fun , what fun where their be for collectors who get their lovingly assembeled sets back from the CAC with many of the coins non-stickered? What will that do to their desire to keep on collecting ?
I remember distinctly when PCGS first formed -they were so tight in grading ; they undergraded EVERY SINGLE COIN FROM MY SET . I was so distraught and crushed , I drifted away from collecting for years >>
What fun is there for collectors who go to sell a coin they bought back to a dealer and he doesn't really want to buy it cuz it's not nice for the grade. Might he not be distraught and crushed and drift away from collecting for years?
At least with a stickered coin there will be an instantly liquid market available.
<< <i>Russ - the crackout artists hardly need a sticker on a lock upgrade coin to identify an opportunity. On the other hand, an heir or novice collector might not know what they have without that sticker. You are making a mountain out of a molehill here. >>
Oh, I can see it now.
Walking into the coin shop Homer say's "My Grandpa died and left me this coin. It's in this plastic case that says $1 PCGS 1795 2 Leaves, VF20 coin." The coin dealer say's "I'll give $1,000 for it. Homer say's "What about this CAC sticker here?" Dealer say's rubbing the sticker "Hum, won't come off. I'll give you $900."
"SOLD! Homer say's while daydreaming of swimming in a vat of Duff Beer.
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<< <i>Russ - the crackout artists hardly need a sticker on a lock upgrade coin to identify an opportunity. On the other hand, an heir or novice collector might not know what they have without that sticker. You are making a mountain out of a molehill here. >>
Oh, I can see it now.
Walking into the coin shop Homer say's "My Grandpa died and left me this coin. It's in this plastic case that says $1 PCGS 1795 2 Leaves, VF20 coin." The coin dealer say's "I'll give $1,000 for it. Homer say's "What about this CAC sticker here?" Dealer say's rubbing the sticker "Hum, won't come off. I'll give you $900."
"SOLD! Homer say's while daydreaming of swimming in a vat of Duff Beer. >>
Cool. The discussion has degenerated to beer induced fantasy.
<< <i>Cool. The discussion has degenerated to beer induced fantasy. >>
Which is still a substantial improvement over previous discussions on this topic.
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<< <i>Cool. The discussion has degenerated to beer induced fantasy. >>
Which is still a substantial improvement over previous discussions on this topic. >>
True. Except my beer induced fantasies are quite the improvement over ANYTHING on this site!
With NO disrespect aimed towards ANYONE, regardless who's Name is involved, who is to say that this sticker man's eye is better than the graders' and how long before this leads to corruption and people being paid off?
All this does is open yet another door for more Scandal! The more it goes the less I like the idea. I don't need anyone picking PQ coins for me. I do it myself. Geeeez!
<< <i>What price guide will CAC use when it buys a stickered coin? Bluesheet bid? Bluesheet ask? Greysheet bid? Greysheet ask? Or something altogether different? >>
Stickersheet bid ?
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