PCI grading, never again! PHOTOS W/CRACKOUT TAGS

Gi · July 9, 2007 9:14AM

Hi all.
I've lurked here for a year. My interests are more in currency but I do some type coin collecting and decided to put a Walker short set together. It took about a year of purchasing slabbed coins individually. I've been a machinist-tool and die maker for over 30 years so I think I know what I'm seeing when I look at a piece of metal. Well in my stupid attempt to have the set graded a minimum of ms65 I purchased several ms64 slabs that I am sure were ungraded. Well to save (waste) money I cracked out 10 and sent them to PCI (mistake)
for grading mid June 2007. There back now. Thought there my be some interest here in seeing how the "new" PCI did. Thoughts and comments welcome.

1946 NGCms64 PCI au50 Very nice gold orange blue toning, full thumb and skirt lines, spotless fields

1944D PCGSms64 PCIms63 Rattler slab, nice toning, full thumb and skirt lines, near spotless fields

1944 NGCms63 PCIau55 old "soap dish" slab, nice toning, full thumb and skirt lines, near spotless fields

1945D ANACSms64 PCIau58 there new slab

1942S PCGSms64 PCIms63 Older slab, superior luster, near spotless fields

1945S NGCms64 PCIms63 superior luster, near spotless fields

1943S ANACSms64 PCIms63 old mini slab, PQ

1944 NGCms64 PCIms62 superior luster, near spotless fields

1944S NGCms64 PCIms63 nice toning, full thumb and skirt lines, near spotless fields

1941S NGCau58 PCIms62 looked under graded like the rest

Russ · July 9, 2007 9:15AM

Russ, NCNE

TwoSides2aCoin · July 9, 2007 9:17AM

Hi Gi...
Sorry for your misfortune. Who's grading at PCI.. .I rather like stringent standards.. A couple of yours took a nose dive, though. It makes me wonder who missed what at NGC or if you got prints on your coins after the crack out.
Welcome, too.

Joe

RedneckHB · July 9, 2007 9:19AM

Where do I find some newly graded PCI coins?

Russ · July 9, 2007 9:19AM

<< Who's grading at PCI.. .I rather like stringent standards.. >>

If one is just a collector / casual submitter the results will frequently be similar to what he posted. If one is a high volume submitter, the results are completely different.

Russ, NCNE

Doogy · July 9, 2007 9:20AM

<< Hi Gi...
Sorry for your misfortune. Who's grading at PCI.. .I rather like stringent standards.. A couple of yours took a nose dive, though. It makes me wonder who missed what at NGC or if you got prints on your coins after the crack out.
Welcome, too.

Joe >>

where do you see mention of finger prints on the coins?

Pentimento · July 9, 2007 9:22AM

<< 

<< Hi Gi...
Sorry for your misfortune. Who's grading at PCI.. .I rather like stringent standards.. A couple of yours took a nose dive, though. It makes me wonder who missed what at NGC or if you got prints on your coins after the crack out.
Welcome, too.

Joe >>

where do you see mention of finger prints on the coins? >>

full thumb

Doogy · July 9, 2007 9:23AM

<< 

<< 

<< Hi Gi...
Sorry for your misfortune. Who's grading at PCI.. .I rather like stringent standards.. A couple of yours took a nose dive, though. It makes me wonder who missed what at NGC or if you got prints on your coins after the crack out.
Welcome, too.

Joe >>

where do you see mention of finger prints on the coins? >>

full thumb

>>

on Walkers, i'll take 'full thumb' on all of my coins!

bennybravo · July 9, 2007 9:23AM

Welcome! Sorry for your misfortune.

goose3 · July 9, 2007 9:24AM

I cannot fathom why anyone would crack any coin out of an NGC or PCGS holder and send it to PCI.

greghansen · July 9, 2007 9:27AM

If one is just a collector / casual submitter the results will frequently be similar to what he posted. If one is a high volume submitter, the results are completely different.

Truer words were never spoken! IMO the way some of these TPG treat the casual submitter vs. their high volume submitters border on the criminal.

drwstr123 · July 9, 2007 9:30AM

I've sent to PCI and found them increasingly (overly) strict. I sent a raw VDB, came back, PCI MS63RB. Cracked it out and sent to PCGS, came back, PCGS MS65RB. Go figure. Mike

Connecticoin · July 9, 2007 9:31AM

Are these the new slabs signed by JT Stanton? Would be interesting to see what they look like.

Doogy · July 9, 2007 9:33AM

kinda sounds like ICCS. they are a Canadian outfit that grades Canadian coins. Most on the darkside will report that they grade 1-3 point more strict than either PCGS or NGC.

Russ · July 9, 2007 9:34AM

<< I've sent to PCI and found them increasingly (overly) strict. I sent a raw VDB, came back, PCI MS63RB. Cracked it out and sent to PCGS, came back, PCGS MS65RB. >>

That's because you're a casual submitter. Take a look at some of the PCI crap sold by high volume dealers.

Russ, NCNE

droopyd · July 9, 2007 9:35AM

<< If one is just a collector / casual submitter the results will frequently be similar to what he posted. If one is a high volume submitter, the results are completely different. >>

I'm still puzzled by this practice and how it is justified.

Companies are of course free to adopt whatever business practices they like, and it's common for "high volume" customers to receive preferential treatment.

Usually, however, they receive price breaks based on volume and preferred (superior) customer service. Not what essentially winds up being a different service with different standards.

If in fact this practice does take place (and I have no doubt that it does), it sort of negates the entire "level playing field" concept that standardized, impartial third-party grading was supposed to impart to the hobby and business of numismatics.

Which is why I guess a lot of folks don't play the plastic game.

originalisbest · July 9, 2007 9:36AM

Really bizarre. Sounds like any casual submitter's misfortune might be someone's lucky find, then, if they put a PCI coin out there that looks "much too good" per typically encountered PCI standards.

TwoSides2aCoin · July 9, 2007 9:36AM

Is it possible a first time poster gets a thread to 100 ?

originalisbest · July 9, 2007 9:38AM

Naah, this thread hasn't got legs - it basically bashes PCI and that's hardly worth 20 posts.

droopyd · July 9, 2007 9:38AM

<< I've sent to PCI and found them increasingly (overly) strict. I sent a raw VDB, came back, PCI MS63RB. Cracked it out and sent to PCGS, came back, PCGS MS65RB. Go figure. Mike >>

I bought a 15-P Lincoln graded 63RB by PCI (it was a few years back so not part of any recent standards tightening effort). It's a 64RD any day of the week, better than some graded as such by the "market leaders." So go figure indeed.

TwoSides2aCoin · July 9, 2007 9:38AM

Oh, and doogy, I don't see mention of fingerprints. I am speculating as to how a coin went from MS64 to AU on a crackout

AUandAG · July 9, 2007 9:45AM

10% went up and 90% went down....OH MY, looks like PCI is the new tough boy on the block!
Sorry for your loss.
bob

drwstr123 · July 9, 2007 10:04AM

<< 

<< I've sent to PCI and found them increasingly (overly) strict. I sent a raw VDB, came back, PCI MS63RB. Cracked it out and sent to PCGS, came back, PCGS MS65RB. >>

That's because you're a casual submitter. Take a look at some of the PCI crap sold by high volume dealers.

Russ, NCNE >>

Oh?

Barry · July 9, 2007 10:20AM

<< I cannot fathom why anyone would crack any coin out of an NGC or PCGS holder and send it to PCI. >>

Especially if you've been lurking here for a year. You should have known better!

SanctionII · July 9, 2007 10:42AM

I bought a PCI 67CAM proof Frankie a few years back, cracked it and put in a Proof Frankie Capital holder. Looking closely at the coin I saw, under a loupe, some hairlines on the left obverse field. You can not see the hairlines without a loupe. Other than these hairlines, the coin is wonderful. It has nice, evenly matched thick frost on both sides of the coins and has clean, watery black mirrors.

I have no clue what the coin would grade at if submitted to a leading TPG. One day I will find out.

basestealer · July 9, 2007 10:48AM

I recently cracked all my PCGS stuff out and sent it to SGS. Everything came back 70, and I couldn't be happier. It took a while though because the guy on the phone told me he was going to be busy for the next few months slabbing his own coins, and the AC in his garage went out so he expected to only work nights. Eventually my order arrived though.

Newcomp103 · July 9, 2007 11:26AM

So wait a minute...most of the time PCI is criticized on the forums for being overgraded a point or 2.....and the market reflects this by dealers saying things like..."PCI 65 would be NGC 64 and PCGS 63"....and.....now they are being criticized for being to strict?

This is the problem with slabbing...TPGs should authenticate, and let dealers and collectors agree or disagree on grades...but it will never happen!....OK....I will come down off of the soap box!

Thanks for letting me vent, sorry!

Shawn

clarkbar04 · July 9, 2007 11:33AM

I still don't see the point of the crackout, even if they crossed they would be worth less in a pci holder.

fcloud · July 9, 2007 11:40AM

Welcome.

DJCoinz · July 9, 2007 12:50PM

Can't think of anything to say.

Type2 · July 9, 2007 12:53PM

<< Can't think of anything to say.

>>

Doogy · July 9, 2007 12:59PM

<< So wait a minute...most of the time PCI is criticized on the forums for being overgraded a point or 2.....and the market reflects this by dealers saying things like..."PCI 65 would be NGC 64 and PCGS 63"....and.....now they are being criticized for being to strict?

This is the problem with slabbing...TPGs should authenticate, and let dealers and collectors agree or disagree on grades...but it will never happen!....OK....I will come down off of the soap box!

Thanks for letting me vent, sorry!

Shawn >>

Shawn,

that is the argument for the ages........maybe the higher end TPGs should issue a "range". Maybe PCGS and NGC can grade a coin as 'authentic' and issue a grade range of 'no less than MS63, but no higher than 65'. Let the buyer/seller argue over the "correct" grade. a two grade range is a good one, as you don't often hear the lament " that darn PCGS/NGC gave me a MS63. my coin is a clear MS66!"

then, we can take the execs from 'Big Oil' out and flog them, buy the world a Coke, and teach them how to sing in harmony!

I'm not running for President, but feel free to write me in!

Doug

GoldenEyeNumismatics · July 9, 2007 1:05PM

<< Where do I find some newly graded PCI coins? >>

my thoughts exactly

Baley · July 9, 2007 1:23PM

maybe buy them from this Gi

(unless he's pulling our legs)

let's see the coins

oldcameoproofsguy · July 9, 2007 2:06PM

Smoeone post a new PCI holder so I know what I'm looking for.

Then I'll see for myself if they are being too strict. If they are, I'll start gobbling them up.

Shortgapbob · July 9, 2007 2:13PM

Improperly undergrading coins to me is bad, just as overgrading coins is bad. Of course, undergrading coins benefits those astute collectors.

droopyd · July 9, 2007 2:58PM

<< Take a look at some of the PCI crap sold by high volume dealers. >>

I recently picked up a couple of 67RD PCI Lincolns off the 'bay, mostly out of curiosity to see what they actually were. Spotty 65s, not even worth a crackout. Didn't pay much for them at least, maybe $10 each.

Myqqy · July 9, 2007 4:00PM

I've never seen a thread that bashes pci for being too strict!

BlindedByEgo · July 9, 2007 4:20PM

<< I've never seen a thread that bashes pci for being too strict!

>>

Will wonders never cease?

QBert · July 9, 2007 4:29PM

PerryHall · July 9, 2007 4:40PM

<< I cannot fathom why anyone would crack any coin out of an NGC or PCGS holder and send it to PCI. >>

Agree. Makes no sense whatsoever. Paying to move a coin from a top tier slab to a third tier slab is just plain dumb.

CappedBustDimes · July 9, 2007 4:40PM

Wow! Chalk that up as a hard lesson/straight kick in the testicles. Did you discuss this crossover with any before submitting? I think 2 sides may be on to something as to the methods used to liberate the coins?

Edit:

<>

Especially if you've been lurking here for a year. You should have known better!

I think someone is tugging some chains.

Boom · July 9, 2007 5:32PM

WoW INDEED! I second that. I cannot EVEN fathom someone cracking out top tiered grading service coins .. submitting them to PCI AND them coming back graded MUCH LOWER! Huh? Did I read this correctly?

This IS a Joke, right.

Bruceswar · July 9, 2007 5:37PM

If this is not a joke.. PCI coins will get much more looking at.

291fifth · July 9, 2007 7:09PM

It looks like it is time to start looking at PCI again.

ibzman350 · July 9, 2007 7:59PM

April 1st already????

Herb

ModernCrapNut · July 9, 2007 8:48PM

Favoritism toward big dealers as to grades given is only a step worst than a fee structure which allows me to buy graded NGC Early Release '07-W Eagles for less than the grading and shipping fees would be if I sent in 5 coins, let alone a number smaller than that. Are TPGs set up to help the hobby or dealers?

Bruceswar · July 9, 2007 9:40PM

<< Favoritism toward big dealers as to grades given is only a step worst than a fee structure which allows me to buy graded NGC Early Release '07-W Eagles for less than the grading and shipping fees would be if I sent in 5 coins, let alone a number smaller than that. Are TPGs set up to help the hobby or dealers? >>

TPG's are in this to make money period. Enough said.

PerryHall · July 9, 2007 10:11PM

<< It looks like it is time to start looking at PCI again. >>

The problem is that there are too many PCI slabs with overgraded coins already out there. If they want to tighten their grading so collectors will take them seriously, they will have to redesign their insert to differentiate the new stricter slabs from the older looser slabs.

WinPitcher · July 9, 2007 10:13PM

, they will have to redesign their insert to differentiate the new stricter slabs from the older looser slabs.

I think they did, Doesn't JT Stanton sign the insert?

Steve

ziggy29 · July 9, 2007 11:29PM

I think it's time to start looking at some coins being sold in PCI slabs a little more closely. Could be some bargains out there if you know what to look for. It's not just the old green label any more, perhaps...

PCI grading, never again! PHOTOS W/CRACKOUT TAGS

Comments

Leave a Comment