<< <i>...if they make them only available in sets, then people will be forced to buy all 4 coins if they want the Jefferson. >>
Or not buy them at all. Or wait for some other shmuck to put out the big bucks for the whole set and list the coins individually on the secondary market.
Let's hope so for all the flipper and non-collectors, since a collector it won't really matter. If I were a flipper I'd be looking at the history of the 1984 Oly $10 gold in the proof P/D/S mint marks. These coins were minted with mintages of P-33k, D-34.5k, and S-48.5k in proof only the W mint marks are way up there (proof/UNC's). Even though these proof coins are in this series mint range and doesn't require much to complete the set it's still bringing a little over melt after all these years.
<< <i>It would be funny to see how all of you on this board would change your minds if these sets could be flipped for a premium. All of a sudden people would be instant fans of the series. It all comes down to the bottom line. As far as the coins go, those women are ugly as sin, their faces could actually stop a clock. I don't blame Thomas Jefferson for being a fruitcake. If women looked like that I would become a fruitcake too. >>
Nope. All it would mean is the first batch are the good ones like the state quarter proof sets and 1999. The next batch will usually be losers. The mint will raise the limits if they think they can find enough buyers.
Quite a few mint products sold for a premium first few months after release, only to see them drop below issue price later. Don't get excited about a bump up in price, it may or may not last. If I had to bet, I'd bet not.
Like I said, buy them if you like them, but it looks like a poor financial play. I will make the comment that the veteran mint flipper pundits on board have not jumped on, and they have a good track record on spotting the hits and the flops. These gold coins look like a flop.
<< <i>40,000 mintage? Seems a tad high for real value. >>
Is this really high? I think that there will be a lot of U.S. citizens all over this who are not coin collectors. That could eat significantly into the number available to the established collector base.
Should be a bloom of interest, speculative runup and then gradual recession of prices. In the end who cares.
I am a loyal mint customer but will not support this series, not that it matters.
If the mint states it will make 10,000 widgets of any variety people will buy. I think that is their nature. If it is a more significant piece and not just a made up NCLT it will support more long term interest.
The unofficial survey I have taken of people even when they see pics of the PROOF prezzies shows them to be completely underwhelmed & can only imagine what they will say about the "hags" issues.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
Nope. All it would mean is the first batch are the good ones like the state quarter proof sets and 1999. The next batch will usually be losers. The mint will raise the limits if they think they can find enough buyers.
It depends. According to the Mint's website, "Each First Spouse Coin is limited to 40,000 coins across all product options."
Does this limit apply to the 2007 issues only, or to the entire series?
- You had to by the 1995 Gold set to get the Silver dollar. Thus, if the Jefferson is the key, you will have to buy the set to get the Jefferson.
- If all 40,000 coins are sold in the sets, then there may NOT be a single.
- It remains to be seen, but they didn't sell all the Buffalo's, 300,000, thus the mintage will be lower. Final mintage is key.
- These Subscriptions are the New Game in Town. I'm thinking back to the regular Mail ordering forms. If you think you'll get a fast moving coin via snail mail, think again. Thus, there will come a time when the Subscription takes ALL the coins and there will be none left for when they 'go on sale'.
Guess I'll subscribe, I can always cancel. I'd hate to miss out if the subscriptions take all the coins.
- Looks like you have to order the Proof to get the box, which will hold all the coins. They probably will not send the box until your 30 day return is up. I wonder if they will offer the box next year. The box could be KEY !!!
Each First Spouse Coin is limited to 40,000 coins across all product options.
So what are the product options? Only proof and circulated or single maybe? I want the Jefferson Liberty but don't want the other three. I'll wait on the sidelines. If I miss the boat that's ok.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>You had to by the 1995 Gold set to get the Silver dollar. Thus, if the Jefferson is the key, you will have to buy the set to get the Jefferson. Agree with cut and paste from above, with the 95 set, to pick up the silver you coulda just dumped the gold to offset your cost. >>
Obvious, upon hindsight. It may be the same with the First Hags™ -- you may be able to see the three others to pay for Jefferson's Liberty. At this point in the game, who can say?
Anybody want to start a pool on what day the 4-coin set subscriptions sell out? I take May 12. TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Anybody want to start a pool on what day the 4-coin set subscriptions sell out? I take May 12. TD >>
January 2009 who really knows how many the mint will sell by subscription all 40,000? half? I don't know, but if it does sell out I'm not sure that's a good thing, because the best hope for it IMHO... is that it doesn't sell and the mint cuts way back on mintages
I ask again? what will people do with the homlier(the majority) coins in the set? if it's bullion value , this set has the highest premium over the melt value of any of the mints issues. @25%
Mozin, if that was a first spouse design I'd buy that one
<< <i>Related question - will the First Spouse coins be considered part of the overall gold commemorative series? >>
They are not -- they are bullion coins, alongside the AGEs and Buffalos.
(IMHO) >>
actually... this makes sense... commemorative coins are meant to raise money for events or memorials, etc... these are just to raise money for the US Mint
As a previous poster mentioned, how many of the "big dog" flippers/forecasters do you see buying these? Any "I'm buying" posts from FLBill? Coinboy? 7over8? EricJ?
I don't presume to speak for any of them, but I would take their silence as lack of interest--and would tread carefully if expecting this set to increase in value.
I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
As a previous poster mentioned, how many of the "big dog" flippers/forecasters do you see buying these? Any "I'm buying" posts from FLBill? Coinboy? 7over8? EricJ?
I don't presume to speak for any of them, but I would take their silence as lack of interest--and would tread carefully if expecting this set to increase in value. >>
They will always be worth a 1/2 Oz of Gold...........and @ $400....A little over melt value..........who cares
But watch and see what a Jefferson (Draped Bust) PR70DCAM goes for......then we will see
<< <i>They will always be worth a 1/2 Oz of Gold...........and @ $400....A little over melt value..........who cares >>
You are correct--long term. My concern is for those who might be considering this purchase for immediate profit, rather than to hold for a few years (or forever!). A person buying this for a quick flip has serious exposure. Maximum loss:
1/2 ounce of gold: value is $330 (-ish) Transactional fees (eBay and PayPal) = 2.9% (PayPal) and 2.5% (eBay) = $18 (-ish) Cost of capital/opportunity cost: indeterminate
Excluding the last factor, the total measurable loss could be as much as $90 per coin ($360 per set)--a 22.5% potential loss.
By opportunity cost, let me give an example. After a great year in 2000 (Goodacre dollars and Millennium Sets), I thought I could do no wrong when it came to "investing" in coins. So I bought big ($1500 worth, which was about half my net worth) on 2001 Proof Silver Eagles. I only lost about $2 per coin--no big deal financially. Except that while I had half my money tied up in silver eagles, I wasn't free to use it to purchase Buffalo Commems. Instead of buying $3000 worth of Buffalos, I only bought $1500 worth. How much did my mistaken "investment" in silver eagles cost me? About a $150-$200 loss on the coins themselves, AND $4000 in lost profits that I otherwise would have made on the Buffalos.
Opportunity cost DOES add up.
As always, if you are buying because you like the coins, more power to you! But if you are buying on speculation, carefully consider the downside and then make an educated decision. Please do not think that just because the Mint made some really profitable stuff in '06 that everything the Mint makes in '07 will be as rich an opportunity.
I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
15k for uncs and 25k for proofs is my guess for a sellout. It may take a month or so. It's impossible to compare these to the 20th Anniversary sets. There are so many longterm eagle collectors. I think the mint will sell individuals later in the year. That will skew the mintages in favor of the Liberty's this year and next. In subsequent years I think the mintage will dramatically drop. Collectors will then want to go back and get the first four. Everyone needs Martha, like George and Delaware (.25).
Looks like the gold coins WILL be offered as singles. Although the Mint does not come right out and state that directly, the web site does say
" The United States Mint will mint and issue First Spouse Gold Coins on the same schedule as the Presidential $1 Coins issued honoring the Presidents. "
<< <i>As a previous poster mentioned, how many of the "big dog" flippers/forecasters do you see buying these? Any "I'm buying" posts from FLBill? Coinboy? 7over8? EricJ? >>
Actually, I'm in for 10 of each...still undecided on whether to activate my network for additional quantities.
As always, if you are buying because you like the coins, more power to you! But if you are buying on speculation, carefully consider the downside and then make an educated decision. Please do not think that just because the Mint made some really profitable stuff in '06 that everything the Mint makes in '07 will be as rich an opportunity. >>
I agree with you and inasmuch as my first comment is concerned, I still contend since they are "precious metal" , they "are likely to go up in value".
From a collecting standpoint, it will be an expensive endeavor over ten years. From a profiteers standpoint, this year could be full of surprises. How much are smooth edge GWs going for today ?
I hope mint offers single coins. Would like to order few more "drape bust"....I will not order any more than the one set ordered. Nothing too exciting, yet, this year.....Am looking forward to the new Plat. coins. Could not let these Gold coins pass without sticking my toe in the water alittle.
I am actually very disappointed that the USM did not hold the line at 10K max mintage across all ordering options as mentioned briefly in a short CW article a few weeks back. It seems that Mint Director Moy went for approval to LIMIT the previously UNLIMITED language of the legislation to 10,000 PER COIN.
It is a shame that the number of 40,000 PER coin are available across all options. What is still undetermined is since that quote appears on both the Unc and Proof subscription ordering page, does it mean 40,000 x 2 or just 40,000?
I have my calls in for clarification, but it seems to have taken a turn for the worse.......look at the best case, buy a set or so, risk selling at bullion in an uptrend in gold prices - about $240 risk at melt per set.....
It would be real funny if these things sell out by subscription and by the time they are release there are none left. I would like to see what people say about these coins then........... I think most collectors will be in for at least one of each. What if one set sells out before the other? For example, the uncirculated sets sell out really quickly and the proofs drag for a while? It should be interesting in a month, and I can't wait until NN publishes how many have sold.
another franklin mint offering from our less then wonderful mint. they will keep pumping out crap as long as "collectors" keep buying. better then i paying more taxes or something like that. keep up the good work!
The only mintage limit mentioned on the US Mint web site is 40,000 coins for the proofs. There is NO mintage limit, as of yet, specified for the uncirculated version of these. My guess is they will mint to demand for the uncirculated versions.
I read that as 40,000 per design in all options, BU, Proof, Sets, and Singles (if they last that long). TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
<< <i>...if they make them only available in sets, then people will be forced to buy all 4 coins if they want the Jefferson. >>
Or not buy them at all. Or wait for some other shmuck to put out the big bucks for the whole set and list the coins individually on the secondary market.
<< <i>It would be funny to see how all of you on this board would change your minds if these sets could be flipped for a premium. All of a sudden people would be instant fans of the series. It all comes down to the bottom line. As far as the coins go, those women are ugly as sin, their faces could actually stop a clock. I don't blame Thomas Jefferson for being a fruitcake. If women looked like that I would become a fruitcake too. >>
Nope. All it would mean is the first batch are the good ones like the state quarter proof sets and 1999. The next batch will usually be losers. The mint will raise the limits if they think they can find enough buyers.
Quite a few mint products sold for a premium first few months after release, only to see them drop below issue price later. Don't get excited about a bump up in price, it may or may not last. If I had to bet, I'd bet not.
Like I said, buy them if you like them, but it looks like a poor financial play. I will make the comment that the veteran mint flipper pundits on board have not jumped on, and they have a good track record on spotting the hits and the flops. These gold coins look like a flop.
<< <i>40,000 mintage? Seems a tad high for real value. >>
Is this really high? I think that there will be a lot of U.S. citizens all over this who are not coin collectors. That could eat significantly into the number available to the established collector base.
I am a loyal mint customer but will not support this series, not that it matters.
If the mint states it will make 10,000 widgets of any variety people will buy. I think that is their nature. If it is a more significant piece and not just a made up NCLT it will support more long term interest.
The unofficial survey I have taken of people even when they see pics of the PROOF prezzies shows them to be completely underwhelmed & can only imagine what they will say about the "hags" issues.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Nope. All it would mean is the first batch are the good ones like the state quarter proof sets and 1999. The next batch will usually be losers. The mint will raise the limits if they think they can find enough buyers.
It depends. According to the Mint's website, "Each First Spouse Coin is limited to 40,000 coins across all product options."
Does this limit apply to the 2007 issues only, or to the entire series?
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
- If all 40,000 coins are sold in the sets, then there may NOT be a single.
- It remains to be seen, but they didn't sell all the Buffalo's, 300,000, thus the mintage will be lower. Final mintage is key.
- These Subscriptions are the New Game in Town. I'm thinking back to the regular Mail ordering forms. If you think you'll get a fast moving coin via snail mail, think again. Thus, there will come a time when the Subscription takes ALL the coins and there will be none left for when they 'go on sale'.
Guess I'll subscribe, I can always cancel. I'd hate to miss out if the subscriptions take all the coins.
- Looks like you have to order the Proof to get the box, which will hold all the coins. They probably will not send the box until your 30 day return is up. I wonder if they will offer the box next year. The box could be KEY !!!
<< <i>I'm waiting for the Presidental Pet Series...
I hear Teddy had a Bear..."-) >>
A Pet series would sell better than the old women series. This country is full of pet lovers, especially here in Portland, Oregon.
Maybe we could start a series like this Ecuatorial Guinea. Sorry, the plastic sealed flip covers some detail.
So what are the product options? Only proof and circulated or single maybe? I want the Jefferson Liberty but don't want the other three. I'll wait on the sidelines. If I miss the boat that's ok.
Box of 20
Now how should I explain this to the wife...
<< <i>OK, I'm in for a set of Uncs.
Now how should I explain this to the wife... >>
"I bought them for you, Dear........"
Agree with cut and paste from above, with the 95 set, to pick up the silver you coulda just dumped the gold to offset your cost.
<< <i>You had to by the 1995 Gold set to get the Silver dollar. Thus, if the Jefferson is the key, you will have to buy the set to get the Jefferson.
Agree with cut and paste from above, with the 95 set, to pick up the silver you coulda just dumped the gold to offset your cost. >>
Obvious, upon hindsight. It may be the same with the First Hags™ -- you may be able to see the three others to pay for Jefferson's Liberty. At this point in the game, who can say?
I take May 12.
TD
Anybody want to start a pool on what day the 4-coin set subscriptions sell out?
I take May 12.
TD
May 13
Related question - will the First Spouse coins be considered part of the overall gold commemorative series?
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>Anybody want to start a pool on what day the 4-coin set subscriptions sell out?
I take May 12.
TD >>
I don't think the subscriptions will sell out. If they sell out it will be through regular sales.
<< <i> Anybody want to start a pool on what day the 4-coin set subscriptions sell out?
I take May 12.
TD
May 13
Related question - will the First Spouse coins be considered part of the overall gold commemorative series? >>
EXCELLENT QUESTION...
/ed
The Maddy Rae Collection
CURRENT BST OFFERINGS
<< <i>Related question - will the First Spouse coins be considered part of the overall gold commemorative series? >>
They are not -- they are bullion coins, alongside the AGEs and Buffalos.
(IMHO)
<< <i>Anybody want to start a pool on what day the 4-coin set subscriptions sell out?
I take May 12.
TD >>
January 2009
I ask again? what will people do with the homlier(the majority) coins in the set?
if it's bullion value , this set has the highest premium over the melt value of any of the mints issues. @25%
Mozin, if that was a first spouse design I'd buy that one
<< <i>
<< <i>Related question - will the First Spouse coins be considered part of the overall gold commemorative series? >>
They are not -- they are bullion coins, alongside the AGEs and Buffalos.
(IMHO) >>
actually... this makes sense... commemorative coins are meant to raise money for events or memorials, etc... these are just to raise money for the US Mint
/ed
The Maddy Rae Collection
CURRENT BST OFFERINGS
<< <i>I'd be up for a Bust series of "The Women of Playboy"
<< <i>I'd be up for a Bust series of "The Women of Playboy"
In ultra high relief?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd be up for a Bust series of "The Women of Playboy"
In ultra high relief?
Yes, for the sake of 'art'.
In ultra high relief?
No AT allowed - NT only!
<< <i>They're likely to go up in value >>
You never know, but I highly doubt it.
As a previous poster mentioned, how many of the "big dog" flippers/forecasters do you see buying these? Any "I'm buying" posts from FLBill? Coinboy? 7over8? EricJ?
I don't presume to speak for any of them, but I would take their silence as lack of interest--and would tread carefully if expecting this set to increase in value.
<< <i>
<< <i>They're likely to go up in value >>
You never know, but I highly doubt it.
As a previous poster mentioned, how many of the "big dog" flippers/forecasters do you see buying these? Any "I'm buying" posts from FLBill? Coinboy? 7over8? EricJ?
I don't presume to speak for any of them, but I would take their silence as lack of interest--and would tread carefully if expecting this set to increase in value. >>
They will always be worth a 1/2 Oz of Gold...........and @ $400....A little over melt value..........who cares
But watch and see what a Jefferson (Draped Bust) PR70DCAM goes for......then we will see
Sold unwanted non-Jefferson gold coins for $960 ($320 per coin - at or about melt)
Keep the Jefferson gold for $640 ($1600-$960=$640)
At $640 per coin, and having sold FORTY THOUSAND coins, this JF gold coin might very well be "Dead before Arrival".
This is so Franklin Mint.
<< <i>They will always be worth a 1/2 Oz of Gold...........and @ $400....A little over melt value..........who cares >>
You are correct--long term. My concern is for those who might be considering this purchase for immediate profit, rather than to hold for a few years (or forever!). A person buying this for a quick flip has serious exposure. Maximum loss:
1/2 ounce of gold: value is $330 (-ish)
Transactional fees (eBay and PayPal) = 2.9% (PayPal) and 2.5% (eBay) = $18 (-ish)
Cost of capital/opportunity cost: indeterminate
Excluding the last factor, the total measurable loss could be as much as $90 per coin ($360 per set)--a 22.5% potential loss.
By opportunity cost, let me give an example. After a great year in 2000 (Goodacre dollars and Millennium Sets), I thought I could do no wrong when it came to "investing" in coins. So I bought big ($1500 worth, which was about half my net worth) on 2001 Proof Silver Eagles. I only lost about $2 per coin--no big deal financially. Except that while I had half my money tied up in silver eagles, I wasn't free to use it to purchase Buffalo Commems. Instead of buying $3000 worth of Buffalos, I only bought $1500 worth. How much did my mistaken "investment" in silver eagles cost me? About a $150-$200 loss on the coins themselves, AND $4000 in lost profits that I otherwise would have made on the Buffalos.
Opportunity cost DOES add up.
As always, if you are buying because you like the coins, more power to you! But if you are buying on speculation, carefully consider the downside and then make an educated decision. Please do not think that just because the Mint made some really profitable stuff in '06 that everything the Mint makes in '07 will be as rich an opportunity.
Ren
" The United States Mint will mint and issue First Spouse Gold Coins on the same schedule as the Presidential $1 Coins issued honoring the Presidents. "
First Spouse
<< <i>As a previous poster mentioned, how many of the "big dog" flippers/forecasters do you see buying these? Any "I'm buying" posts from FLBill? Coinboy? 7over8? EricJ? >>
Actually, I'm in for 10 of each...still undecided on whether to activate my network for additional quantities.
FloridaBill
<< <i>Opportunity cost DOES add up.
As always, if you are buying because you like the coins, more power to you! But if you are buying on speculation, carefully consider the downside and then make an educated decision. Please do not think that just because the Mint made some really profitable stuff in '06 that everything the Mint makes in '07 will be as rich an opportunity. >>
I agree with you and inasmuch as my first comment is concerned, I still contend since they are "precious metal" , they "are likely to go up in value".
From a collecting standpoint, it will be an expensive endeavor over ten years. From a profiteers standpoint, this year could be full of surprises. How much are smooth edge GWs going for today ?
1 Martha Washington 1789-1797
2 Abigail Adams 1797-1801
3 Thomas Jefferson's Liberty 1801-1809
4 Dolley Madison 1809-1817
2008
5 Elizabeth Monroe 1817-1825
6 Louisa Adams 1825-1829
7 Andrew Jackson's Liberty 1829-1837
8 Martin Van Buren's Liberty 1837-1841
2009
9 Anna Harrison 1841
10 Letitia Tyler
Julia Tyler 1841-1842
1844-1845
11 Sarah Polk 1845-1849
12 Margaret Taylor 1849-1850
2010
13 Abigail Fillmore 1850-1853
14 Jane Pierce 1853-1857
15 James Buchanan's Liberty 1857-1861
16 Mary Lincoln 1861-1865
2011
17 Eliza Johnson 1865-1869
18 Julia S. Grant 1869-1877
19 Lucy Hayes 1877-1881
20 Lucretia Garfield 1881
2012
21 Alice Paul 1881-1885
22 Frances Cleveland 1885-1889
23 Caroline Harrison 1889-1893
24 Frances Cleveland 1893-1897
2013
25 Ida McKinley 1897-1901
26 Edith Roosevelt 1901-1909
27 Helen Taft 1909-1913
28 Ellen Wilson
Edith Wilson 1913-1914
1915-1921
2014
29 Florence Harding 1921-1923
30 Grace Coolidge 1923-1929
31 Lou Hoover 1929-1933
32 Anna Eleanor Roosevelt 1933-1945
2015
33 Elizabeth Truman 1945-1953
34 Mamie Eisenhower 1953-1961
35 Jaqueline Kennedy 1961-1963
I am actually very disappointed that the USM did not hold the line at 10K max mintage across all ordering options as mentioned briefly in a short CW article a few weeks back. It seems that Mint Director Moy went for approval to LIMIT the previously UNLIMITED language of the legislation to 10,000 PER COIN.
It is a shame that the number of 40,000 PER coin are available across all options. What is still undetermined is since that quote appears on both the Unc and Proof subscription ordering page, does it mean 40,000 x 2 or just 40,000?
I have my calls in for clarification, but it seems to have taken a turn for the worse.......look at the best case, buy a set or so, risk selling at bullion in an uptrend in gold prices - about $240 risk at melt per set.....
Will James Buchanan's Liberty be a Seated Liberty ?
The Liberty Obverse is suppose to be the Liberty of that Presidents era.
they will keep pumping out crap as long as "collectors" keep
buying. better then i paying more taxes or something like that.
keep up the good work!
"Each First Spouse Coin is limited to 40,000 coins across all product options."
TD
"Each First Spouse Coin is limited to 40,000 coins across all product options. "