Just looked at the pics of the 1941 proof set. If the coins are in the original mint cello and there is no evidence of the coins ever having been removed from the original government packaging, then I would not remove same if you and your family have decided to sell the proof sets unslabbed [you could expect to obtain a higher price if the coins in the sets have never been removed from the original government packaging because some buyers crave "originality"]. If you do not want to sell the proof sets raw [and instead want to keep them or slab them before selling them] removing them from the original government packaging should be done [so you can get a better idea of how nice they are looking at them without the cello blocking the view; and so you can put them in storage containers that will minimze the risk of damage to the coins now that they are being inspected and handled by people instead of simply sitting in a box or closet].
In any event, if the proofs ever come out of the cello envelopes, please post pics of same under good lighting [halogen]. I for one would love to see high quality pics of the coins in the 36-42 proof sets, out of the cello. I am sure they have toned up. Some toning may be very attractive, adding to the quality and value of the coins. Some toning may be negative, detracting from the quality and value of the coins [in which case a dip or other appropriate treatment to remove the toning in a manner that does not damage the coins would be in order]. Some toning may be neutral, in which case removing same or allowing it to remain is a toss up decision. (The toning on the pictured 1941 half [which BTW looks very nice with no noticeable marks/blemishes] looks very typical of silver proofs that have remained in the cello envelopes for years. To me this type of toning is neutral or negative. If I owned the coin I would closely inspect same to see if the coin is of high grade with few blemishes, watery mirrored fields and/or frosted devices under the toning. If so, the removal of the toning would enhance the coin and I would remove it).
This thread and the original thread are two of the most enjoyable threads that have been posted to the US Coin Forum since I joined in 8-2004. The coin pics and the enjoyment/excitement for your family and for forumites arising from the collecting efforts of your grandfather is the best part of the whole thing. On top of that, it is nice to see a family that inherits an old time collection put themselves in a position where they educate themselves on what they have and thus avoid disposing of the collection for a fraction of its value when it is finally sold.
More pics please. >>
The challenge with the cello is deciding what to do. Some may pay a premium to have them original and in the packaging, but at the same time, the reason they would do so is hoping for unsearched high PR coins. If any of those coins are PR66 or PR67 they carry a huge premium over a standard 65... and some of them very well could grade out at that level. So, what do do? If it were me, I'd find a reputable grader (maybe someone on the boards could recommend someone) who could, leaving those coins in the cello) offer grading opinions. If you have any homerun's, then send them for certification. If they are nice gem PR coins, then sell them as an original proof set in cello for a premium... But, often individual coins on those rare ones will drive a higher price added up than the set... Oh the challenges of having such nice coins!
Hello Darth ( and family ) - as everyone has said already - the pics and the history behind them is great. We see many many coins where we don't know their past, they are strangers in that way, having a connection to your coins the way you do is what is driving a lot of people crazy here, or myself to say the least. I believe that someone may have already touched on this already.
Don't forget that there are many here that may not post much but are enjoying this thread. Also, your particular situation being discussed here is probably helping many others who are in a similar situation and are learning from this.
Good luck to you and your family - I'm amazed that everyone seems to be on the same page as far as the handling of the collection, I know that if it were mine, there would be many differing opinions. Good to see a family work it out when it comes to money.
OK – jonathanb – great info! I thought wow – after 2 months in this hobby I knew everything! (jk of course.) I totally understand and your explanation makes perfect sense! I have made a note to go back and check this coin. Its *possible, due to the light, angle, and plastic/cellophane cover – it’s an optical illusion – but at this point I’ll go with the Cud theory!
SanctionII – well, as always – great information/post. As I said – I’m taking notes this time – and everyone’s comments will be taken into consideration which will give us 6 endless “talking points.” Thanks for the great comments.
Original – great point! After (most) pictures and information are gathered, my plan was to burn a CD for each family member for keepsake. As you pointed-out, this could be used for other purposes also!
IRCWCoins – I was actually thinking about posting “100” like you did – but figured it would be a bit like nominating yourself for the “you suck” award… lol…
Tonedbuff – right . So much info… so many challenges. The good thing is we can read, and re-read these posts/comments a hundred times – to aid us in any decisions… As you know – your opinions are highly valued…
twister2 – yeah, about a day ago I thought the thread just might fizzle-out. I’ll keep posting as long as there’s interest, or I run out of pictures… speaking of which…
Here’s another change-up. I got a PM specifically requesting any pics I had of ’21 Morgans. We have 3. Now here’s the part that’s going to make everyone scream at me. [flame-suit on] Just about New Years – I took the coins out and found several silver dollars and many other “loose coins” in a bag. There were 3 ’21, and 3 ’22 silver dollars. One of the ’21s had some really bad crusty/dirt-like stuff all over it, so… I did the BIG no-no. Rinsed it in the sink with some dawn detergent, and then figured my wife’s silver jewelry polishing rag would complete the “nice touch”. My apologies to all here for committing this coin sin…. See if you can guess which coin I cleaned!!! lol… [/flame suit off]
Sanction - some '37 proof pics comming up soon....
Now here’s the part that’s going to make everyone scream at me. [flame-suit on] Just about New Years – I took the coins out and found several silver dollars and many other “loose coins” in a bag. There were 3 ’21, and 3 ’22 silver dollars. One of the ’21s had some really bad crusty/dirt-like stuff all over it, so… I did the BIG no-no. Rinsed it in the sink with some dawn detergent, and then figured my wife’s silver jewelry polishing rag would complete the “nice touch”. My apologies to all here for committing this coin sin…. See if you can guess which coin I cleaned!!! lol… [/flame suit off]"
LOL. I was thinking that the third one (1921-S) looked really wrong, but I wasn't going to say anything until I read what you posted above.
Here are several shots of a '37 proof set. The staple fell out, the baggies came apart, so I was able to shoot each coin. I'll blame the poor quality on the cellophane... (I verified the "yellowing" you see - especially on the quarter and half obverse - is the package, not the coin.)
Oh - the family's seeing these for the first time too...
I was going to post this last night, but a 6-hour power outage stopped that… Here are a few better shots of one of the ’41 proof sets. I didn’t flip through to photograph each coin, as it seemed the bags/staple might come apart (which for some reason at that point I didn’t want that to happen.) This one sure appears to me that it’s been sitting like this since issued from the mint in ’41. >>
That series of four shots of the '41 proof set is the coolest single post I have seen on this forum. It's truly amazing to be able to see these as they were issued 66 years ago.
No less instructive are the shots of the '37 proof set above. I'm glad to know the yellowing is on the packaging! I wonder what sort of polymers and other packaging materials were used back in those days.
I just love the proof shots. However, the proofs present a real quandry: most people truly want proofs to be blast white. These have naturally toned a bit, and not the pretty type of toning. As for me, I'd take them original, but the market pays more blast white. These may be more valuable (and grade higher) if they recieve a quick bath from NCS. I'd not do it myself, or let some local coinstore guy do it... However, seeing the batch, I would have all of the 37's certified. They look very nice. The lincoln shows some hints of cameo that may come through more out of the cello, and the buffalo nickel shows an unusual amount of differentiation between fields and device, which may be a bit of cameo (really, really rare). The 37 proof buffs I've seen generally have such shiny devices that match the fields that they are close to impossible to photograph. Yours has a phenominal look. Can't see the reverse enough to offer an opinion, but that obverse looks like a nice PR67, maybe a 68 (again, really hard to see). Eye appeal on this one is top notch, and if they feel that those devices are a bit frosty, you have struck gold! My guess is that it would fall short of cameo, but you never know, I have seen a few cameo nickels and the frost is not as strong as a silver coin would indicate, and mostly differentiated by the lack of what is almost a 'hubcap chrome' look these things have. The cent looks nice, but not good enough detail on photo to guess well, maybe PR65 to PR66. The merc dime looks strong too, possibly PR67 range. The quarter looks to be a weak strike for a proof, maybe a 65 The half looks really sharp, and is the one that made me think of a quick dip at NCS. Maybe as high as a PR67??
Really hard to tell in cello, but those would be my guesses.
All in all, depending on grade, the set could be worth well over 5,000 and as much as 7,000 if the half and buff grade high... the cent is a big swing between 65 and 66 being worth about tripple in 66 as it is in 65. That is why those need to be graded. Sold on the market, it would go for about $4,000 or a bit more in the cello, which sort of presumes all coins are mid level with nothing exceptional.
As for the morgans, nice shining job Don't do that again! But, at least you picked emminently unimportant coins to practice on. The 1921's are not much more than bullion in low grades. Good coins to hand out to the kids to get their interest in collecting as they are big, silver, heavy, and nice to look at. Don't worry too much about the cleaning, really, not much value lost, if truth be told.
Great pics of the 37 proof coins. Love the Buffalo. Will be very interested in seeing pics of all of the proof coins and, if they are graded, seeing what they grade at.
Tonedbuff: To further the lesson, what does "mint state circulation" mean? The reason I ask, is because through all this Recently Acquired...I've had friends in my business sharing what they know, but have found this Forum 2B the best source. Mark & I are definitely having fun with all of this as are all the cousins; so a lesson would be nice. (Schooling as we say in the Dart world.)
This is a truly enjoyable thread. Among the pictures, please don't forget to tell your grandfather's story. Hearing about him really helps bring out the story behind the collection and the coins. Plus, keep in mind that many--perhaps all of us--here can almost immediately identify with your grandfather.
PlanetSteve – thanks so much for the comments/compliments! Yeah – I thought the ’41 pics came out nicely too...
Tonedbuff – well… again, wow. Great comments/analysis. Thanks for taking the time! A quandary? You bet! I feel a bit uneasy about ripping these virgins from their cellophane wombs. (Can I say that here? Lol.) Seriously, I’m glad we’re not making any decisions today. As I already mentioned, printing-out/saving this thread will be invaluable to us in the future when decisions need to be made. Re-reading your comments (and others) from the first thread makes so much more sense - now that I have just a tiny fraction of your(s) knowledge.
SanctionII – I’ve only got a few more proof pics (which I’ll post up in the next day or so.) I’ll have to take some time to assemble more – but will do so. How quickly I forgot that most of you coin guys just sit out there and scream for pictures – without ever thinking about my feelings. LOL!!!
Type2 – please revert back to your previous avitar picture.
Keez – thanks!
Jim – get with the program… (jk)
Mark – thanks for the comments. Trying to keep up with you guys!
OK – lunch pics. Looks like possibly more harsh cleaning on the first Grant, right?
As I stated earlier, I am really enjoying this thread and appreciate you both taking your time to post the coins and the historical info of the previous owner, your father/grandfather. That said I believe that a few points need to be made:
Grading- While the some members here are very good at grading from a picture and I am in agreement with most of the grades given, nothing will replace a in-person inspection of your coins by a professional coin expert (suggest at least two) to evaluate factors such as luster, cleaning, die-polish lines, etc. I know you have been in contact (via PM) with several members, and I would suggest that you attempt to have this done some where down the line.
Pedigree- You have mentioned that you would like to have those coins which are graded to carry a pedigree which reflects their history, however I don't believe that under the rules presently furnished by PCGS that they qualify for a pedigree labeling. Perhaps because of the intrest of the board and the fact that thru this avenue, you were able to realize what your legacy was, PCGS may be willing to make an exception, I hope so.
Sale- These coins are "Fresh Material" and as such would be something that any auction house would love to sell. Perhaps you could use some of your biographial material in the write-up of the portion of the auction catalog that sells your collection. This would be a way of honoring your grandfather and tying the coins and him together.
Both those Grants look to be circulated and cleaned....too bad, its one of my favorite designs. I would put value around $30-$40 ?
The proof sets are awesome $$$
Defineatly the third 21' Morgan was your victim.
I am by no means a seasoned grader....but almost all the comems you have posted are in gem+ condition. I would have them ALL graded. If you could sneak any in to 66-67 holders....$$$
<< <i>Tonedbuff: To further the lesson, what does "mint state circulation" mean? The reason I ask, is because through all this Recently Acquired...I've had friends in my business sharing what they know, but have found this Forum 2B the best source. Mark & I are definitely having fun with all of this as are all the cousins; so a lesson would be nice. (Schooling as we say in the Dart world.)
Sincerely, JIM Cousin2 >>
A mint state coin is simply a coin made for ciculation, from a normal planchet. These coins range may or may not ever circulate, and can grade from P01 to MS70. Proofs are not made for circulation, but are special collector coins made from special planchets and struck multiple times. Proofs generally range from PR60 to PR70 but impared proofs exist, and circulated proofs exist (especially in buffs, where many proofs early on were hard to distinguish from mint state, and got spent) so you can see PR01 and up also.
The grants are ciculated, and cleaned. Likely netVF or so, maybe XF. I do like the look of the second one's reverse, however. Perfect wear, giving it a weathered appearance that really has nice eye appeal! Cool keeper coins! Why sell something you won't get much money for when you can keep them and have some really cool parts of this legacy spread around the family!
It truly has been a pleasure to follow along in your adventure. The coins are outstanding, and the side-notes about your family are inspiring. Keep up the great work, by the time you're done going through everything, it may be awefully hard to pick out a few favorites to keep and you'll be taking a 2nd mortgage out on the house to pay off the other cousins their share so you can keep the whole collection
I don't remember from the original thread if you mentioned it, but out of curiosity, were there any non-coin items with the collection? I mean, did your Grandfather have a numismatic library, auction catalogs, pamphlets, auction/sales receipts or any coin-related things of this nature?
Coinmickey – When I first “inspected” these Grants – I thought they were, well… just pretty darn ugly. Your comments (and below comments) confirm that.
Dan – Right. I’ve read (and agree) that grading coins from images can (and will) certainly net discrepancies. And, as pointed-out by Tonedbuff – a one “point” difference can be HUGE in dollar-value. At this point I’d still like to have your guesses – understanding that they could indeed be way off – but maybe just for fun. That said - if any of you think the grade guessing is a waste of time (obviously, you guys are taking a CLOSE look at the coins – seeing things I never did/would) then by all means don't feel obligated.
I understand on the pedigree also, Dan. The only reason we’re going to pursue it is because several here suggested we try. If it works out, great! If not…well “it’s better to have tried and lost, than to have never tried at all…” Please keep your “thoughts” coming!
Tbar/Tonedbuff – thanks again.
Jeff – Thanks for the comments! (Except for the one about the 2nd mortgage.) Not much at all in the way of a “library”. There is a “Guide to U.S. Commemoratives”, but I can’t remember the year published. (I’ll check.) About the only other thing coin-related I remember seeing is a hard-copy “spreadsheet” with many of the commemoratives listed along with their possible values. Maybe dated in the 70s.
Random coin pic. This one is marked as a California gold token – “1849 Trojan Eureka.” From the last thread, it was mentioned this type gold token was possibly counterfeited. Judge for yourselves…
Curious gold... I'm interested in hearing what the gold pro's think. As to grading from pics, everyone likes to make clear that you should not count on our grades being right, but my experience on these boards is that their is a 80% accuracy rating when you get a handful of opinions. Time and again, folks have taken PCGS or NGC encapsulated coin pics and gotten good accurate grade opinions from the members here, so it is not a waste of time, and will truly help you get a ball park estimate of value. Just remember to watch for those with a big spread between one grade and the next and mark them out to watch carefully when they go to a TPG, as some may merit a second try for a higher grade (like the lincoln cent proof, which goes from the $350 range in PR65 to well over $1,000 in PR66 as I recall.
It truly has been a pleasure to follow along in your adventure. The coins are outstanding, and the side-notes about your family are inspiring. Keep up the great work, by the time you're done going through everything, it may be awefully hard to pick out a few favorites to keep and you'll be taking a 2nd mortgage out on the house to pay off the other cousins their share so you can keep the whole collection
I don't remember from the original thread if you mentioned it, but out of curiosity, were there any non-coin items with the collection? I mean, did your Grandfather have a numismatic library, auction catalogs, pamphlets, auction/sales receipts or any coin-related things of this nature?
Jeff >>
StrikeoutXXX: ..."did your Grandfather have a numismatic library, auction catalogs, pamphlets, auction/sales receipts or any coin-related things of this nature?"
I, Cousin2, am trying to help field non-coin questions for Mark (Darth5oh) so he can concentrate on the cateloguing and getting free grading you guys are giving.
To answer your question, our Grandparents had a shop full of collectibles - ranging from dolls, teacups, old barber shop razors etc. As far as a library items, the ones I recall of Arizona Highways, and an endless library of national Geographics. I don't recall ever seeing any auction catelogues or a numismatic library anywhere in the house. When Grampy passed away, we as a family rushed the sale of the house, distributed what we thought should go to certain family-mambers, and chunked the rest.
Looking back, I don't think we could have done it differently, but if we come across anything, "What specifically would you like to have/see?"
Garneteye (Dan) Thanks too for your thoughts! That's an excelent idea having a write-up at the auction to pay tribute 'tying our Grandparents to the collection' etc. Hell, from all that has come from this, we may have to (be able to) write a book. We do have a well known writer in the family that has written several family history books; so we may have to commission him to do it. LOL
For California gold, the rule of thumb is that real pieces have a denomination ("DOL" or "DOLLAR", or a fraction of one of those), and fakes don't. Yours doesn't, which says that it's probably a fake. As with most things, however, I'm pretty sure there are exceptions, so don't write it off until you hear from an expert -- not me. But don't be surprised if you end up writing it off once you do..
<< <i>Is there any way to spell-check when replying??? Looking at my replies, I look ignorant.
;) >>
Ah, but looking ignorant is only a small sin compared to being ignorant. If spelling was used as a measure of board member intelligence... a lot of us would be banned for excessive stupidity...
I think the pedigree idea is a good one, especially because it honors your grandfather (and grandmother, depending on what you want). And Garneteye is certainly correct when he says that your collection does not fall under the normal pedigree "rules." But some collections that do not fall udner the rules have been pedigreed. If you do decide to sell the coins (which seems likely) I think your first step will be to contact several auction houses/coin dealers for their offers and advice. If they advise have some or all of the coins encapsulated, you could ask them to negotiate with the company doing the encapsulation (hopefully PCGS) to apply a pedigree. I expect that the auction house/coin dealer would carry more weight than an individual collector. But I might be wrong. For instance, it would be neat if someone from PCGS popped up on this thread with an offer to pedigree the coins.
One last thought: Some auction companies frequently have a short biographical sketch about some of their consigners in the front of their auction catalogs. If you went with one of these companies, in addition to the funds from the coins, you'd also have a permanent record of your grandfather and grandmother to pass down in the family.
I like the Carlsbad Collection name. Tied with a synopsis of Grammy & Grampy, that might work well. Thanks Garrow!!! We cousins will toss that one around.
What a great thread Darth! I read each page from top to bottom and by the time I hit refresh I have another 5 posts to read... I want to thank you for sharing your grandfather's history and collection, this thread got me hooked to the forum and to ultimately sign up. I am very much a rookie collector (it seems like many of the questions you have been asking come straight out of my mouth) and this is first time I have seen any early commems - awesome looking coins! (Makes you wonder what the mint is thinking these days)
Anyways your story really makes me want to fly up to PA from TX and take a look at my grandfather's collection. I never had the chance to meet him and now that I know a little something about the hobby I am very curious to see what he was interested in. I'm sure it will not amass to the financial value of your family's but I can see how much pride and knowledge you and Cousin2 have gained from your grandfather's legacy and that is what I hope to get when I eventually see his. Anyways, thanks again, and keep the awesome pic's coming!
N8 Welcome to the Forum!! I just loved saying that. I'm a newbe myself, but have enjoyed several other coin threads myself. Good luck on your trip to see your G-Pa's collection. We don't how much ours will bring, and I don't think it has near the bearing; that instead, our Grampy did in fact make it BIG!!!
So whatever the case, treasure what you have and share what you're willing. I am now - again - collecting pennies as I did after a summer trip to that little house in Carslbad. We're all strolling down a great memory lane. Hope it's the same for you.
jonathanb – interesting. I’ll post up the other “gold” we have later. Who knows? Thanks for the info.
Mark – thanks for your thoughts/perspective. Three of us are actually talking about meeting at a major auction house with several samples.
N8 – Thanks! If you haven’t read it yet, you may want to hit the original “Recently Acquired Coin Collection” link on the first post of this thread. Something like 440 posts – many of which are full of great info!
lasvegasteddy – interesting timing! As asked by StrikeOutXXX on the previous page. I’ve got a few pics I took tonight of one pamphlet!
First – a few thoughts. I guess maybe thinking about stories and such being asked by posters here, and maybe Jim’s comments about the thousands of “dusty” relics in the shop – two events come to mind.
1.) Jim mentioned still having an Eisenhower dollar given to him back in the 70s by our grandfather. I (and my older sister) also received some coin “gifts”. We both have 3 or 4 mint (or proof) sets from our birth year, and subsequent 2 or 3 years. I have sets from 1961-1964. I guess this surely verifies my grandfather’s interest was still strong in the 60s and 70s.
2.) I also recall back when I was a teenager in the late 70s. I walked into the house (Carlsbad house), and my grandfather was in the living room looking at a coin with this huge industrial-size magnifying-glass. His eyes were poor, so he asked me to take a look at the coin to see if I could read the date or maybe the mint mark. I remember being able to read it, but don’t recall any real interest in the coin (or coins.) In hindsight - shame on me!
OK – a couple pics! First for StrikeOut and lasvegas. I pulled out a box of paper/notes/stamps because I recalled a small Commemorative guide book. It’s got a copyright of ’37. There are two of them! Check-out the page of "Late Arrivals!" Also, a hand-written “inventory” of the commemoratives, of which I don’t know the date or author. (I’m guessing it’s my grandfather.)
Lastly – another commemorative coin… Hope that didn’t bore you!
The inventory page was in fact written by our Grandfather. I looked at some old letters I have from my Grandparents written to my dad when he was at West Point; so I'm cetain it's Grampy's pen. Also, Grampy kept an old railroad style checkbook for their checking account. I recall him teaching me how to keep a checkbook in balance. What I remember most is how he wrote his 5's. Very distinct. I kept the same style checkbook when I had my restaurant. And the legacy lives on...
I wish we had the date the entries were made to reference today's value by comparison. Something else we could use in the book for sure.
I missed the first thread, but after reading this all I can say is Wow! What a wonderful collection your Grandfather passed down to you, I really love those early proof sets. Thanks for sharing!
I just want to thank you for the pics and stories (even though I know you are getting some free grading in return ). It has certainly been a pleasure to look through so much fresh material, an opportunity that doesn't come very often for average collectors like me. Those original proof sets are absolutely outstanding!! Good luck and I wish you the best as you go through and catalogue this incredible collection.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
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This has to be one of the best threads I've encountered so far on these boards, thanks for sharing not only the collection but the story of the collector who put it together-----Tom
Support your local gunslinger, you never know when you'll need him
<< <i>OK – a couple pics! First for StrikeOut and lasvegas. I pulled out a box of paper/notes/stamps because I recalled a small Commemorative guide book. It’s got a copyright of ’37. There are two of them! Check-out the page of "Late Arrivals!" Also, a hand-written “inventory” of the commemoratives, of which I don’t know the date or author. (I’m guessing it’s my grandfather.) >>
Thanks - I was just curious what type of "Supporting material" he accumulated alongside his collection. Here is a review of the booklet by the Society for US Commemorative coins in their building a library of commemorative coins section: The booklet has been on eBay for around $10-15.
Mehl, B. Max. The Commemorative Coins of the United States. Fort Worth, Texas: B. Max Mehl, 1937. [Out of Print]
A "fun" little booklet published by one of the giants in the field of numismatics. Mehl adds a bit of his own "flavor" to some of the coin descriptions and also includes reprints of a few contemporary accounts of the coins. The booklet also includes a two-page "Brief History of the Mehl Numismatic Establishment." A bit difficult to locate, but not very expensive when found — recommended!
I wish we had the date the entries were made to reference today's value by comparison. Something else we could use in the book for sure.
Perhaps someone here has some older redbooks or pricing guides from this timeframe and can narrow it down to roughly when the list was made.
OK – weak strikes, bad cleaning, fake gold. Bet you guys are lovin’ me right now… Seems the name, “StrikeOutIII” would better suit me. (Sorry about that, S.O.III)
Tbar/Tonedbuff - Up until now, I don’t think I really understood the term, “weak strike.” Maybe I do now – those coins just don’t “jump-out at you.” Nothing crisp about the raised areas. I just love how I (we) are learning!
Jim – nice forensic work catching the handwriting quirk (5). Impressive! And yes – as StrikeOut pointed out - I’d think we could date this based on previous Redbook values. (Note the OST uncirculated at $510.)
And StrikeOutIII – thanks for the eBay heads-up. I didn’t think this Commemorative Guide would be so common, but it’s neat to have!
Numismanic/Shortgapbob/Boothill40 – I think I speak for all of us when I say – we can’t tell you guys how thrilling is it to hear comments like this. As much as I’d like to take the credit – I have to keep reminding myself this is really Grampy’s (and Grammy’s) thread – just a few decades late… Thank you all!
OK – as a reprieve from my last picture failures, and possible perception I’m trying to sell fake gold - I’m going to try to get this next coin copied out into cyber-space in the next hour. (I may be setting myself up for failure – as I don’t have access to do this at work.) I was going to save this coin for later, but I think the timing is good. I promise if I can’t get this coin out – I’ll post up another…
Comments
<< <i>Darth5oh.
Just looked at the pics of the 1941 proof set. If the coins are in the original mint cello and there is no evidence of the coins ever having been removed from the original government packaging, then I would not remove same if you and your family have decided to sell the proof sets unslabbed [you could expect to obtain a higher price if the coins in the sets have never been removed from the original government packaging because some buyers crave "originality"]. If you do not want to sell the proof sets raw [and instead want to keep them or slab them before selling them] removing them from the original government packaging should be done [so you can get a better idea of how nice they are looking at them without the cello blocking the view; and so you can put them in storage containers that will minimze the risk of damage to the coins now that they are being inspected and handled by people instead of simply sitting in a box or closet].
In any event, if the proofs ever come out of the cello envelopes, please post pics of same under good lighting [halogen]. I for one would love to see high quality pics of the coins in the 36-42 proof sets, out of the cello. I am sure they have toned up. Some toning may be very attractive, adding to the quality and value of the coins. Some toning may be negative, detracting from the quality and value of the coins [in which case a dip or other appropriate treatment to remove the toning in a manner that does not damage the coins would be in order]. Some toning may be neutral, in which case removing same or allowing it to remain is a toss up decision. (The toning on the pictured 1941 half [which BTW looks very nice with no noticeable marks/blemishes] looks very typical of silver proofs that have remained in the cello envelopes for years. To me this type of toning is neutral or negative. If I owned the coin I would closely inspect same to see if the coin is of high grade with few blemishes, watery mirrored fields and/or frosted devices under the toning. If so, the removal of the toning would enhance the coin and I would remove it).
This thread and the original thread are two of the most enjoyable threads that have been posted to the US Coin Forum since I joined in 8-2004. The coin pics and the enjoyment/excitement for your family and for forumites arising from the collecting efforts of your grandfather is the best part of the whole thing. On top of that, it is nice to see a family that inherits an old time collection put themselves in a position where they educate themselves on what they have and thus avoid disposing of the collection for a fraction of its value when it is finally sold.
More pics please. >>
The challenge with the cello is deciding what to do. Some may pay a premium to have them original and in the packaging, but at the same time, the reason they would do so is hoping for unsearched high PR coins. If any of those coins are PR66 or PR67 they carry a huge premium over a standard 65... and some of them very well could grade out at that level. So, what do do?
If it were me, I'd find a reputable grader (maybe someone on the boards could recommend someone) who could, leaving those coins in the cello) offer grading opinions. If you have any homerun's, then send them for certification. If they are nice gem PR coins, then sell them as an original proof set in cello for a premium...
But, often individual coins on those rare ones will drive a higher price added up than the set...
Oh the challenges of having such nice coins!
Don't forget that there are many here that may not post much but are enjoying this thread. Also, your particular situation being discussed here is probably helping many others who are in a similar situation and are learning from this.
Good luck to you and your family - I'm amazed that everyone seems to be on the same page as far as the handling of the collection, I know that if it were mine, there would be many differing opinions. Good to see a family work it out when it comes to money.
SanctionII – well, as always – great information/post. As I said – I’m taking notes this time – and everyone’s comments will be taken into consideration which will give us 6 endless “talking points.” Thanks for the great comments.
Original – great point! After (most) pictures and information are gathered, my plan was to burn a CD for each family member for keepsake. As you pointed-out, this could be used for other purposes also!
IRCWCoins – I was actually thinking about posting “100” like you did – but figured it would be a bit like nominating yourself for the “you suck” award… lol…
Tonedbuff – right . So much info… so many challenges. The good thing is we can read, and re-read these posts/comments a hundred times – to aid us in any decisions… As you know – your opinions are highly valued…
twister2 – yeah, about a day ago I thought the thread just might fizzle-out. I’ll keep posting as long as there’s interest, or I run out of pictures… speaking of which…
Here’s another change-up. I got a PM specifically requesting any pics I had of ’21 Morgans. We have 3. Now here’s the part that’s going to make everyone scream at me. [flame-suit on] Just about New Years – I took the coins out and found several silver dollars and many other “loose coins” in a bag. There were 3 ’21, and 3 ’22 silver dollars. One of the ’21s had some really bad crusty/dirt-like stuff all over it, so… I did the BIG no-no. Rinsed it in the sink with some dawn detergent, and then figured my wife’s silver jewelry polishing rag would complete the “nice touch”. My apologies to all here for committing this coin sin…. See if you can guess which coin I cleaned!!! lol… [/flame suit off]
Sanction - some '37 proof pics comming up soon....
LOL. I was thinking that the third one (1921-S) looked really wrong, but I wasn't going to say anything until I read what you posted above.
Oh - the family's seeing these for the first time too...
<< <i>Tbar – thanks again for the grades!
And thanks for the well-wishes, 53BKid!
I was going to post this last night, but a 6-hour power outage stopped that… Here are a few better shots of one of the ’41 proof sets. I didn’t flip through to photograph each coin, as it seemed the bags/staple might come apart (which for some reason at that point I didn’t want that to happen.) This one sure appears to me that it’s been sitting like this since issued from the mint in ’41. >>
That series of four shots of the '41 proof set is the coolest single post I have seen on this forum. It's truly amazing to be able to see these as they were issued 66 years ago.
No less instructive are the shots of the '37 proof set above. I'm glad to know the yellowing is on the packaging! I wonder what sort of polymers and other packaging materials were used back in those days.
Great stuff! Thanks so much!
However, seeing the batch, I would have all of the 37's certified. They look very nice. The lincoln shows some hints of cameo that may come through more out of the cello, and the buffalo nickel shows an unusual amount of differentiation between fields and device, which may be a bit of cameo (really, really rare). The 37 proof buffs I've seen generally have such shiny devices that match the fields that they are close to impossible to photograph. Yours has a phenominal look. Can't see the reverse enough to offer an opinion, but that obverse looks like a nice PR67, maybe a 68 (again, really hard to see). Eye appeal on this one is top notch, and if they feel that those devices are a bit frosty, you have struck gold! My guess is that it would fall short of cameo, but you never know, I have seen a few cameo nickels and the frost is not as strong as a silver coin would indicate, and mostly differentiated by the lack of what is almost a 'hubcap chrome' look these things have.
The cent looks nice, but not good enough detail on photo to guess well, maybe PR65 to PR66.
The merc dime looks strong too, possibly PR67 range.
The quarter looks to be a weak strike for a proof, maybe a 65
The half looks really sharp, and is the one that made me think of a quick dip at NCS. Maybe as high as a PR67??
Really hard to tell in cello, but those would be my guesses.
All in all, depending on grade, the set could be worth well over 5,000 and as much as 7,000 if the half and buff grade high... the cent is a big swing between 65 and 66 being worth about tripple in 66 as it is in 65.
That is why those need to be graded. Sold on the market, it would go for about $4,000 or a bit more in the cello, which sort of presumes all coins are mid level with nothing exceptional.
Don't do that again!
But, at least you picked emminently unimportant coins to practice on. The 1921's are not much more than bullion in low grades. Good coins to hand out to the kids to get their interest in collecting as they are big, silver, heavy, and nice to look at. Don't worry too much about the cleaning, really, not much value lost, if truth be told.
Hoard the keys.
Cousin2
<< <i>Too bad that '37 isn't a three-legged Buffalo...
Cousin2 >>
3 legs are all mint state circulation coins, not proofs!
It is one phenominal proof coin I'd be proud to own! Much nicer than the one I have.
Cousin2
<< <i>Shows my ignorance doesn't it? To say the least I am learning.
Cousin2 >>
Wanna trade places?
To further the lesson, what does "mint state circulation" mean? The reason I ask, is because through all this Recently Acquired...I've had friends in my business sharing what they know, but have found this Forum 2B the best source. Mark & I are definitely having fun with all of this as are all the cousins; so a lesson would be nice. (Schooling as we say in the Dart world.)
Sincerely,
JIM
Cousin2
This is a truly enjoyable thread. Among the pictures, please don't forget to tell your grandfather's story. Hearing about him really helps bring out the story behind the collection and the coins. Plus, keep in mind that many--perhaps all of us--here can almost immediately identify with your grandfather.
OK, that was extremly tacky, but quite fun. I'll probably now be excommunicated possibly executed by my cousins...
Cousin2
Tonedbuff – well… again, wow. Great comments/analysis. Thanks for taking the time! A quandary? You bet! I feel a bit uneasy about ripping these virgins from their cellophane wombs. (Can I say that here? Lol.) Seriously, I’m glad we’re not making any decisions today. As I already mentioned, printing-out/saving this thread will be invaluable to us in the future when decisions need to be made. Re-reading your comments (and others) from the first thread makes so much more sense - now that I have just a tiny fraction of your(s) knowledge.
SanctionII – I’ve only got a few more proof pics (which I’ll post up in the next day or so.) I’ll have to take some time to assemble more – but will do so. How quickly I forgot that most of you coin guys just sit out there and scream for pictures – without ever thinking about my feelings. LOL!!!
Type2 – please revert back to your previous avitar picture.
Keez – thanks!
Jim – get with the program… (jk)
Mark – thanks for the comments. Trying to keep up with you guys!
OK – lunch pics. Looks like possibly more harsh cleaning on the first Grant, right?
Unfortunately yes. It's a nice coin otherwise...i.e.- there's some good detail left on the coin, esp. the reverse. The cleaning hurts it...
Chicolini: Mint? No, no, I no like a mint. Uh - what other flavor you got?
Grading- While the some members here are very good at grading from a picture and I am in agreement with most of the grades given, nothing will replace a in-person inspection of your coins by a professional coin expert (suggest at least two) to evaluate factors such as luster, cleaning, die-polish lines, etc. I know you have been in contact (via PM) with several members, and I would suggest that you attempt to have this done some where down the line.
Pedigree- You have mentioned that you would like to have those coins which are graded to carry a pedigree which reflects their history, however I don't believe that under the rules presently furnished by PCGS that they qualify for a pedigree labeling. Perhaps because of the intrest of the board and the fact that thru this avenue, you were able to realize what your legacy was, PCGS may be willing to make an exception, I hope so.
Sale- These coins are "Fresh Material" and as such would be something that any auction house would love to sell. Perhaps you could use some of your biographial material in the write-up of the portion of the auction catalog that sells your collection. This would be a way of honoring your grandfather and tying the coins and him together.
Just a few thoughts.
Dan
The proof sets are awesome $$$
Defineatly the third 21' Morgan was your victim.
I am by no means a seasoned grader....but almost all the comems you have posted are in gem+ condition. I would have them ALL graded. If you could sneak any in to 66-67 holders....$$$
Keep em commin' Darth...
<< <i>Tonedbuff:
To further the lesson, what does "mint state circulation" mean? The reason I ask, is because through all this Recently Acquired...I've had friends in my business sharing what they know, but have found this Forum 2B the best source. Mark & I are definitely having fun with all of this as are all the cousins; so a lesson would be nice. (Schooling as we say in the Dart world.)
Sincerely,
JIM
Cousin2 >>
A mint state coin is simply a coin made for ciculation, from a normal planchet. These coins range may or may not ever circulate, and can grade from P01 to MS70. Proofs are not made for circulation, but are special collector coins made from special planchets and struck multiple times. Proofs generally range from PR60 to PR70 but impared proofs exist, and circulated proofs exist (especially in buffs, where many proofs early on were hard to distinguish from mint state, and got spent) so you can see PR01 and up also.
It truly has been a pleasure to follow along in your adventure. The coins are outstanding, and the side-notes about your family are inspiring. Keep up the great work, by the time you're done going through everything, it may be awefully hard to pick out a few favorites to keep and you'll be taking a 2nd mortgage out on the house to pay off the other cousins their share so you can keep the whole collection
I don't remember from the original thread if you mentioned it, but out of curiosity, were there any non-coin items with the collection? I mean, did your Grandfather have a numismatic library, auction catalogs, pamphlets, auction/sales receipts or any coin-related things of this nature?
Jeff
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
Dan – Right. I’ve read (and agree) that grading coins from images can (and will) certainly net discrepancies. And, as pointed-out by Tonedbuff – a one “point” difference can be HUGE in dollar-value. At this point I’d still like to have your guesses – understanding that they could indeed be way off – but maybe just for fun. That said - if any of you think the grade guessing is a waste of time (obviously, you guys are taking a CLOSE look at the coins – seeing things I never did/would) then by all means don't feel obligated.
I understand on the pedigree also, Dan. The only reason we’re going to pursue it is because several here suggested we try. If it works out, great! If not…well “it’s better to have tried and lost, than to have never tried at all…” Please keep your “thoughts” coming!
Tbar/Tonedbuff – thanks again.
Jeff – Thanks for the comments! (Except for the one about the 2nd mortgage.) Not much at all in the way of a “library”. There is a “Guide to U.S. Commemoratives”, but I can’t remember the year published. (I’ll check.) About the only other thing coin-related I remember seeing is a hard-copy “spreadsheet” with many of the commemoratives listed along with their possible values. Maybe dated in the 70s.
Random coin pic. This one is marked as a California gold token – “1849 Trojan Eureka.” From the last thread, it was mentioned this type gold token was possibly counterfeited. Judge for yourselves…
Will check in later...
As to grading from pics, everyone likes to make clear that you should not count on our grades being right, but my experience on these boards is that their is a 80% accuracy rating when you get a handful of opinions. Time and again, folks have taken PCGS or NGC encapsulated coin pics and gotten good accurate grade opinions from the members here, so it is not a waste of time, and will truly help you get a ball park estimate of value. Just remember to watch for those with a big spread between one grade and the next and mark them out to watch carefully when they go to a TPG, as some may merit a second try for a higher grade (like the lincoln cent proof, which goes from the $350 range in PR65 to well over $1,000 in PR66 as I recall.
<< <i>Mark,
It truly has been a pleasure to follow along in your adventure. The coins are outstanding, and the side-notes about your family are inspiring. Keep up the great work, by the time you're done going through everything, it may be awefully hard to pick out a few favorites to keep and you'll be taking a 2nd mortgage out on the house to pay off the other cousins their share so you can keep the whole collection
I don't remember from the original thread if you mentioned it, but out of curiosity, were there any non-coin items with the collection? I mean, did your Grandfather have a numismatic library, auction catalogs, pamphlets, auction/sales receipts or any coin-related things of this nature?
Jeff >>
StrikeoutXXX: ..."did your Grandfather have a numismatic library, auction catalogs, pamphlets, auction/sales receipts or any coin-related things of this nature?"
I, Cousin2, am trying to help field non-coin questions for Mark (Darth5oh) so he can concentrate on the cateloguing and getting free grading you guys are giving.
To answer your question, our Grandparents had a shop full of collectibles - ranging from dolls, teacups, old barber shop razors etc. As far as a library items, the ones I recall of Arizona Highways, and an endless library of national Geographics. I don't recall ever seeing any auction catelogues or a numismatic library anywhere in the house. When Grampy passed away, we as a family rushed the sale of the house, distributed what we thought should go to certain family-mambers, and chunked the rest.
Looking back, I don't think we could have done it differently, but if we come across anything, "What specifically would you like to have/see?"
Sincerely,
JIM
Garneteye (Dan) Thanks too for your thoughts! That's an excelent idea having a write-up at the auction to pay tribute 'tying our Grandparents to the collection' etc. Hell, from all that has come from this, we may have to (be able to) write a book. We do have a well known writer in the family that has written several family history books; so we may have to commission him to do it. LOL
Cousin2
;
Garrow
<< <i>Is there any way to spell-check when replying??? Looking at my replies, I look ignorant.
;
Ah, but looking ignorant is only a small sin compared to being ignorant. If spelling was used as a measure of board member intelligence... a lot of us would be banned for excessive stupidity...
Just post away, learn, and have fun.
I think the pedigree idea is a good one, especially because it honors your grandfather (and grandmother, depending on what you want). And Garneteye is certainly correct when he says that your collection does not fall under the normal pedigree "rules." But some collections that do not fall udner the rules have been pedigreed. If you do decide to sell the coins (which seems likely) I think your first step will be to contact several auction houses/coin dealers for their offers and advice. If they advise have some or all of the coins encapsulated, you could ask them to negotiate with the company doing the encapsulation (hopefully PCGS) to apply a pedigree. I expect that the auction house/coin dealer would carry more weight than an individual collector. But I might be wrong. For instance, it would be neat if someone from PCGS popped up on this thread with an offer to pedigree the coins.
One last thought: Some auction companies frequently have a short biographical sketch about some of their consigners in the front of their auction catalogs. If you went with one of these companies, in addition to the funds from the coins, you'd also have a permanent record of your grandfather and grandmother to pass down in the family.
<< <i>The "Carlsbad" collection!
Garrow >>
OOOOOhhhhhh!!! Yeah... Nice! Or maybe:
"Carlsbad Cavern Collection"
Defininte possibility!!!
I like the Carlsbad Collection name. Tied with a synopsis of Grammy & Grampy, that might work well. Thanks Garrow!!! We cousins will toss that one around.
JIM
<< <i>Is there any way to spell-check when replying??? Looking at my replies, I look ignorant.
;
Compose in WORD and then copy/paste.
The entertainment can never be overdressed....except in burlesque
Anyways your story really makes me want to fly up to PA from TX and take a look at my grandfather's collection. I never had the chance to meet him and now that I know a little something about the hobby I am very curious to see what he was interested in. I'm sure it will not amass to the financial value of your family's but I can see how much pride and knowledge you and Cousin2 have gained from your grandfather's legacy and that is what I hope to get when I eventually see his. Anyways, thanks again, and keep the awesome pic's coming!
So whatever the case, treasure what you have and share what you're willing. I am now - again - collecting pennies as I did after a summer trip to that little house in Carslbad. We're all strolling down a great memory lane. Hope it's the same for you.
Sincerely,
JIM
of interest too lays in did your grandpa have books?first editions or old coin related books can surprize you too with value
Mark – thanks for your thoughts/perspective. Three of us are actually talking about meeting at a major auction house with several samples.
N8 – Thanks! If you haven’t read it yet, you may want to hit the original “Recently Acquired Coin Collection” link on the first post of this thread. Something like 440 posts – many of which are full of great info!
lasvegasteddy – interesting timing! As asked by StrikeOutXXX on the previous page. I’ve got a few pics I took tonight of one pamphlet!
First – a few thoughts. I guess maybe thinking about stories and such being asked by posters here, and maybe Jim’s comments about the thousands of “dusty” relics in the shop – two events come to mind.
1.) Jim mentioned still having an Eisenhower dollar given to him back in the 70s by our grandfather. I (and my older sister) also received some coin “gifts”. We both have 3 or 4 mint (or proof) sets from our birth year, and subsequent 2 or 3 years. I have sets from 1961-1964. I guess this surely verifies my grandfather’s interest was still strong in the 60s and 70s.
2.) I also recall back when I was a teenager in the late 70s. I walked into the house (Carlsbad house), and my grandfather was in the living room looking at a coin with this huge industrial-size magnifying-glass. His eyes were poor, so he asked me to take a look at the coin to see if I could read the date or maybe the mint mark. I remember being able to read it, but don’t recall any real interest in the coin (or coins.) In hindsight - shame on me!
OK – a couple pics! First for StrikeOut and lasvegas. I pulled out a box of paper/notes/stamps because I recalled a small Commemorative guide book. It’s got a copyright of ’37. There are two of them! Check-out the page of "Late Arrivals!" Also, a hand-written “inventory” of the commemoratives, of which I don’t know the date or author. (I’m guessing it’s my grandfather.)
Lastly – another commemorative coin… Hope that didn’t bore you!
A Hudson...
I wish we had the date the entries were made to reference today's value by comparison. Something else we could use in the book for sure.
JIM
Grandfather passed down to you, I really love those early proof sets. Thanks for sharing!
U.S. Nickels Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
U.S. Dimes Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
I just want to thank you for the pics and stories (even though I know you are getting some free grading in return
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
This has to be one of the best threads I've encountered so far on these boards, thanks for sharing not only the collection but the story of the collector who put it together-----Tom
I am assuming a weak strike.
<< <i>OK – a couple pics! First for StrikeOut and lasvegas. I pulled out a box of paper/notes/stamps because I recalled a small Commemorative guide book. It’s got a copyright of ’37. There are two of them! Check-out the page of "Late Arrivals!" Also, a hand-written “inventory” of the commemoratives, of which I don’t know the date or author. (I’m guessing it’s my grandfather.) >>
Thanks - I was just curious what type of "Supporting material" he accumulated alongside his collection. Here is a review of the booklet by the Society for US Commemorative coins in their building a library of commemorative coins section: The booklet has been on eBay for around $10-15.
Mehl, B. Max. The Commemorative Coins of the United States. Fort Worth, Texas: B. Max Mehl, 1937. [Out of Print]
A "fun" little booklet published by one of the giants in the field of numismatics. Mehl adds a bit of his own "flavor" to some of the coin descriptions and also includes reprints of a few contemporary accounts of the coins. The booklet also includes a two-page "Brief History of the Mehl Numismatic Establishment." A bit difficult to locate, but not very expensive when found — recommended!
I wish we had the date the entries were made to reference today's value by comparison. Something else we could use in the book for sure.
Perhaps someone here has some older redbooks or pricing guides from this timeframe and can narrow it down to roughly when the list was made.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
Tbar/Tonedbuff - Up until now, I don’t think I really understood the term, “weak strike.” Maybe I do now – those coins just don’t “jump-out at you.” Nothing crisp about the raised areas. I just love how I (we) are learning!
Jim – nice forensic work catching the handwriting quirk (5). Impressive! And yes – as StrikeOut pointed out - I’d think we could date this based on previous Redbook values. (Note the OST uncirculated at $510.)
And StrikeOutIII – thanks for the eBay heads-up. I didn’t think this Commemorative Guide would be so common, but it’s neat to have!
Numismanic/Shortgapbob/Boothill40 – I think I speak for all of us when I say – we can’t tell you guys how thrilling is it to hear comments like this. As much as I’d like to take the credit – I have to keep reminding myself this is really Grampy’s (and Grammy’s) thread – just a few decades late… Thank you all!
OK – as a reprieve from my last picture failures, and possible perception I’m trying to sell fake gold - I’m going to try to get this next coin copied out into cyber-space in the next hour. (I may be setting myself up for failure – as I don’t have access to do this at work.) I was going to save this coin for later, but I think the timing is good. I promise if I can’t get this coin out – I’ll post up another…