Art owns that Hanburger card like 5 times over already...I had a $200 snipe set that didn't even Register...I thought I would at least be close!!lol
Excellent article on Monk and Tagliabue..Unfortunately, they write the same thing every year on Monk..I think its turning the voters against him because if they vote for him now, they are just "folding to the fan pressure"..He's deserving and will eventually get in...
Mark me down as a Pat Fischer fan as well..Very under-rated especially for his size...The thing I always remember is how big his helmet looked on him....Kinda like PacMan Jones of the Titans now...lol..I don't particularly think he was a HOF caliber player, but a classic overachiever who always surprised you with how hard he could hit for a 170 CB...
Dave, Im just happy we are still talking football..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Art owns that Hanburger card like 5 times over already...I had a $200 snipe set that didn't even Register...I thought I would at least be close!!lol >>
I've tried for years to get Art to part with one of those many PSA-8 Hanburger cards he has with no luck. I did manage to pick one up for $100 a while back. I thought at the time I overpaid.
Robert
Looking for: Any high grade OPC Jim Palmer High grade Redskins (pre 1980)
Jason, I can't beileve that Pacman did not make the pro bowl this year. There were several games this year that he was responsible for the win in my opinion. Like you said, definately not a HOF player yet, but if he keeps improving like he did this year over last, we might be talking about him in 15 years.
Joe - because his article was then probably passed on to an editor who went to a prestigious journalism school but who couldn't tell you how many players a football team is allowed to have on the field at one time.
Does anyone know the story behind Jim Tyrer's suicide/murder?
I've never heard the fully story. Was he depressed? Was his wife cheating on him that caused him to snap? Did his wife have a terminal illness, so he took her out of her misery, then felt guilty about that and ate a gun?
Any Chiefs fans out there, can you fill us in with the sad details of this tragedy?
I've always felt he was deserving of the Hall too, but like another posted mentioned, maybe this is what's keeping him on the outside.
<< <i>I remember reading at the time that Tyrer was depressed over business failures. >>
That's consistent with what Wikipedia says. Sounds like Amway put him over the edge.
<< <i>Remaining in the Kansas City area following his retirement, Tyrer turned down an opportunity to serve as a scout for the Chiefs. He then spent the next three years as a salesman before tiring of the constant travel and investing in a tire business. However, a mild winter proved to be financially disastrous for Tyrer, who moved on to work for Amway.
This series of business misfortunes culminated on September 15, 1980 when Tyrer, the father of four, shot his wife and then committed suicide by turning the gun on himself. One of Tyrer's four children discovered the bodies. This is considered the primary reason he has not been nominated or elected to the "Pro Football" Hall of Fame, which, however, has ignored a wealth of anti-social behavior in numerous NFL inductees to its halls. >>
64 Registered NFL HOF Rookie Player sets...25 of them have updated in the past 3 days...AMAZING...
Gets crazier by the day...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Looks like ESPN finally had it with Michael Irvin. I saw on ESPN News this morning that he is no longer with the network. No reason was given.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Jason - most of those updates are because of the addition of the new HOF class.
Nick >>
Not sure what you're looking at Nick...There are now 27 updated sets, and only 5 of them were updated strictly for the 6 new HOFers...I wouldn't qualify 5 out of 27 as MOST...But that's just me..
Its there for the world to see if you want to look for yourself...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I just picked up a PSA 8 1957 Johnny Unitas.....perfectly centered 50/50. I'll post a scan when I get it. >>
You better! Congrats on landing a great card.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Looks like ESPN finally had it with Michael Irvin. I saw on ESPN News this morning that he is no longer with the network. No reason was given. >>
<< <i>Looks like ESPN finally had it with Michael Irvin. I saw on ESPN News this morning that he is no longer with the network. No reason was given. >>
Good, he was an annoyance on the show anyway...Lets hope he doesnt pop up on one of the other networks doing pre-game..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Yes, these football cards are really booming... I have put in several nice snipes on some cards only to be outbid including Tittle, Graham, and Wehrli. I have some money burning a hole in my pocket, but can't seem to add any cards to this set...
<< <i>Yes, these football cards are really booming... I have put in several nice snipes on some cards only to be outbid including Tittle, Graham, and Wehrli. I have some money burning a hole in my pocket, but can't seem to add any cards to this set...
dave >>
Dave I've got a PSA 2 1935 Nagurski currently listed on ebay I would cut you a deal on if interested...I just picked up a PSA 3 recently..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The first time I reached 100% completion in the set, that was the last card I needed...Back then I couldn't fathom spending over $1,000 for ANY card...I've had the PSA 2 since 2004, which I just upgraded to PSA 3 for almost 3K...
Eventually I would like to own the card in PSA 6...
Probably no time soon though..Just never see them in that grade...I've seen a few PSA 7s available, and some PSA 4's..But never see 5's and 6s...
One of these days..lol Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
OK, guys, I finally did it. I created a new forum for Football ONLY!!! It is a free board from Network 54. It is still in the early stages and I'm not too sure if it will take off. It is currently free but has limited space for thread views, images, etc..... If the site takes off, It will cost about $40 per 6 months or $80 per year. I don't want to put money into it right now because it may be a flop...If it does well, I don't mind paying the 6 months, but would like help if we get overwhelmed with people (which would be a good thing) Let me know your thoughts, suggestions or just tell me you think its a bad idea.. It doesnt matter, I can take it!!!
Anyway here it is........Just take a minute to sign up to Network 54 if you dont have a login yet and post away.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Something interesting I never realized concerning Art Monk...When he retired?? He was NOT the All-Time receptions leader..He was passed by Jerry Rice in 1995 BEFORE he retired...
Billy Howton retired as the All-Time receptions AND yardage leader in 1963..He had more Pro Bowls than Monk and was a 1st Team All-NFL selection more times than Art Monk..He avg. 16.8 YPC and scored 61 TDs in 142 career games vs. Monk who avg 13.5 YPC and scored 68 TDs in 224 career games...
I dont mean this as a slight to Monk, but to me better explains why he isn't in the HOF yet...
If Howton isn't in..Why should Art Monk be?
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Yes, technically Jerry had him by a handful. That really makes that much of a difference to you? If he had passed him in the first game of the next season that would have made a difference?
The fact that Monk passed Largent (in) who passed Joiner (in), who passed Taylor (in)...this doesn't suggest a logical sequence to you? The fact that Monk was the first NFL reciever (and, yes, I know about Charley Hennigan) to catch 100 balls in a season, ushering in the modern era where that's the norm rather than an exception doesn't do anything? The fact that he had the consecutive games with a catch record, passing a similarly illustrious group of HOFers in that prusuit, setting there, and in several other instances, all the marks that Rice had to pass...this is irrelevant?
Monk isn't in the Hall for a group of reasons, none of which are really logical or supportable and none of which have anything to do with Billy Howton.
I wouldn't characterize anything Monk did as irrelevant..All great accomplishments..But when people say he was the all-time receptions leader, its a bit misleading...Howton was the all-time receptions AND yardage leader when he retired..Monk was merely a placeholder for Jerry Rice who passed Monk and his reception record before Monk even retired.
Monk played in an era when their where MANY WRs were catching 100+ balls...The same year Monk was the first to do it (1984) James Wilder caught 85 as a RB...Roy Green had more yards, and Paul Coffman, the GB TE had more TDs...It was also the ONLY year Monk ever did it...
Herman Moore caught 100+ in 3 different seasons..Is he a HOF lock?
The consecutive games streak speaks volumes on his dependability...Excellent, dependable, every day WR..HOFer? Maybe, possibly..But not the inconceivable HOF snub that some try and perpetuate...He probably will get in eventually, because he was a very good player and was good enough, long enough to compile some records that were all wiped out a couple of years later by Jerry Rice (to include the consecutive games record)...But he held them none the less and are worthy of consideration...Which realistically he has gotten, as he has been a finalist every single year he's been eligible.
How many times did Billy Howton have a presentation made for him in the HOF vote meeting? Try zero..vs. Monk and his 7 tries already...
My point here wasn't to say Monk isn't worthy, because I believe he is..But if a guy with similar accomplishments such as Billy Howton can be forgotten and brushed aside, why is it that Monk is supposedly "snubbed"? He should feel LUCKY that he's had his name and career debated for all the HOF voters for the last 7 years...He hasn't gotten the vote, but its not that he's been forgotten..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'll happily confess that Howton's accomplishments were new to me. The only reason that I can see why he's been forgotten is that the culture of the NFL in the 50's was primarily a run first, throw second one. In fact, throwing was seen as something vaguely disreputable, something of a trick that real teams wouldn't overuse. Go back and look at some of the early rhetorical dismissals of the AFL, and that figures prominently. Plus, he played on generally subpar teams in Green Bay at the time, then for the Cowboys when they were still a struggling expansion team. Looking at his numbers, he's overdue for a serious look from the Veterans Committee.
Monk was widely considered an easy choice at his retirement. He's been the victim of something close to a fillibuster by a small group of dishonest and/or foolish writers. That is a matter of record at this point, and it's becoming a truly embarrassing sore point for the league in general.
Art set the season record in '84. It stood for 8 years, until broken by Sterling Sharpe. The era of routine 100 catch seasons didn't really start until the mid 90's. He was a precursor to it. To have the fact that they are now routine thrown up in his face is absurd. They weren't when he did it. You should be judged against the standards set at the time you were playing. That seems pretty fundamental, to me.
If you look at the lists at the time he retired, he was at or near the top of all of them. The people immediatly surrounding him, on either side, are almost uniformly in the Hall of Fame. This is cut and dried, to me. To have owned the records for overall receptions, receptions in a season and the consecutive game record, plus being a key member of a team that appeared in 5 NFC title games, winning 4, plus 3 Super Bowls over a 10 year stretch, makes him not just obvious, but overwhelming. I'm sorry that's apparently not as clear to you.
I see both sides of this discussion. One idea of statistical relevence that never gets bounced around is all the NFL rule changes throughout the league's history that have impacted all the numbers acheived by the players.
Another consideration is the offensive coordinators and head coaching philosophy, sometimes based on a teams talent pool at any given time, that also may have impacted the players stats too.
You can have one head coach that's known as a running the ball down their throat type of coach, or you can have the Don Coryell's of the NFL that liked to pass on 65% of the downs, therefore inflating that teams passing numbers.
So we can sit here and debate this all day, but many factors contribute to these players career numbers.
On Billy Howton, a fine end who played his prime years mostly in the 1950's, be played on some awful Packers teams with mediocre running attacks. So he probably got a lot of balls thrown his way. I don't really know if he was ever considered one of the leagues best receivers during the era he played in other than the all-league selections he was voted onto or the pro bowls he may have played in. But he was a fine player nonetheless. He didn't play on any great teams other the Browns for a couple of seasons and never played in or on a NFL Championship team.
Monk, on the other hand played on three Super Bowl winners. The rest of his career story and has been covered in previous posts better than I could restate here.
An argument could be made about Lionel Taylor of the Broncos from the 1960's. He led the AFL in receptions like 5 or 6 times in his career, but he was an NFL reject. Should he get some HOF consideration? I really don't know.
What about the Giants TE Bob Tucker in the 1970's? He put up some great numbers on some bad teams during an era that was not very pass friendly. He made some all-pro and pro bowl teams too. A couple of years his stats resembled WR's of his era. Plus he played during the 14 game schedule seasons.
Even if you use the average catches and yards per game analysis, many players don't compare fairly again based on the teams use of that player and the era's they played in.
So in the end, every borderline candidate can be judged fairly or unfairly by us fans and the HOF selection committee and the debates will continue forever....
<< <i>So in the end, every borderline candidate can be judged fairly or unfairly by us fans and the HOF selection committee and the debates will continue forever.... >>
This was the extent of my point..The argument I typically hear is that Monk is/was an OVERWHELMING and obvious HOFer who is being wrongfully kept out of the HOF for mysterious reasons...He is a borderline guy that warrants discussion, thats it. Jerry Rice? No discussion needed...Reggie White? No discussion needed...Dan Marino? No discussion needed...
Art Monk isn't in that class...Do his accomplishments deserve HOF recognition? I think they do...But that can be said about MANY MANY MANY players...Most of them have been discussed or named somewhere during this thread..lol..If you look at the 6 guys who went in the HOF this year, I don't see an issue putting any of them over Art Monk..You could make a case for the Senior guys not being more worthy than Monk, but those are guys, much like Billy Howton, who were LONG overlooked/snubbed while Monk has only been on the ballot for 7 years...Monk is going to have to wait his turn, and eventually it will come...in 2008, he still won't be the best WR on the board, as I would take Cris Carter over Monk every day of the week...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
When you hold those three major records during your career, contribute in a major fashion to a dominant team, have similar numbers to other Hall members of your generation and have the esteem of your peers to the degree that Art does, you're much more than a borderline case. And the comparison between him and Carter is just as absurd and artificial as the one between Art and Irvin, because he should have aready been in before Carter or Tim Brown or anyone of that generation ever became eligible.
This is one of many infuriating aspects of this: that his candidacy has been bottled up to the degree that it has while people benefitting from offenses geared around them and rules that encourage more passing catch up to his numbers. Then the people doing the artifical blocking of his candidacy turn around and point to his numbers receeding, something that wouldn't be a factor had they originally given him his due. Joseph Heller couldn't have imagined a more ridiculous state of affairs.
Ok..Time to bring some fact based info to this debate...lol
Art Monks BEST 7 year stretch (prime of his career) was 1984-1990...He caught 534 passes during this stretch for an average of 76.29 catches per year...This gives Monk the benefit of cutting off his early, less productive years as well as his last few seasons when he was no longer in his prime..
If you take the top 5 league leaders in receptions during those same 7 years, they averaged 83.74 catches per season from 1984-1990. He only finished in the top 5 three times in those 7 years...So while he was a fine WR, he wasn't as dominant as you might think, even during his PRIME years he was avaeraging 7.5 catches LESS than the top FIVE guys in the league were averaging (8.9% behind the top 5 guys)..
Cris Carter?? His best 7 years were 1994-2000..He caught 693 passes during this stretch for an average of 99.00 catches per season...Same as Monk, this takes Carter's PRIME YEARS ONLY into account...
If you take the top 5 league leaders in receptions from 1994-2000, they averaged 101.86 per season...Carter finished in the top 5 in 5 of those 7 seasons and was much closer to the average of the Top 5 WRs than Monk was during his prime...He was 2.5 catches behind the Top 5 average (2.8% behind the top 5)
You don't EVEN want to compare yards and TDs here, because Carter is head and shoulders above Monk in that respect...And you can use ONLY the averages from the guys who played during the same 7 year stretches to do the comparison..Its not close, I stopped doing the math it was so lopsided...lol
The only positive for Monk here is that Monk played for Championship caliber teams and Carter didn't...Take that for what its worth, but Carter was CLEARLY the more dominant WR, and was held in much higher regard by the fans, the media, and his peers based on Pro Bowls and All-Pro selections during each players prime...
Tim Brown isn't as good as Monk and I think he may run into the same problem of having to wait a few years before getting the nod..Where as Carter and Rice will go in first ballot, no question. I won't waste time arguing Monk vs. Brown, because for me, Monk was easily the better WR of the 2...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Ok..Time to bring some fact based info to this debate...lol >>
You are arguing in a construct of your own creation. I dont want to compare him to Carter, or Irvin for that matter, because it's essentially pointless. Art played most of his career in a different sort of game than Cris played his in, one that was more run oriented (especially on his team.) He was a deep threat for a few years, then a possession guy after the arrival of Clark and Sanders.
I've consistently maintained that he's best judged against his peers, like Largent, Lofton and Newsome, the same way Jim Taylor is more properly judged against Jim Brown or John Henry Johnson than Earl Campbell or Jerome Bettis. Carter vs. Monk is wholly artificial, borne solely out of the voters obdurate refusal to grant Monk his richly earned status in a timely fashion.
I only got involved in this debate again because of the whole Billy Howton thing. I'm still as angry about the whole HOF situation as I was, but I'm going to let it lie, because it's threatening to spin the whole thread quasi-OT. I think I've made my feelings on the matter clear, at this point.
I like Carter and feel he deserves enshrinement. As does Brown, and as do a lot of other overlooked guys from the past and upcoming ones in the future, but Monk is long, long overdue.
The whole Monk thing can be debated forever, however, I truely believe that if he were more "media friendly" he would have been in on the first ballot.
Robert
Looking for: Any high grade OPC Jim Palmer High grade Redskins (pre 1980)
<< <i> I've consistently maintained that he's best judged against his peers, like Largent, Lofton and Newsome, the same way Jim Taylor is more properly judged against Jim Brown or John Henry Johnson than Earl Campbell or Jerome Bettis. Carter vs. Monk is wholly artificial, borne solely out of the voters obdurate refusal to grant Monk his richly earned status in a timely fashion.
I like Carter and feel he deserves enshrinement. As does Brown, and as do a lot of other overlooked guys from the past and upcoming ones in the future, but Monk is long, long overdue. >>
Ok fair enough...I will compare him ONLY to those player who played from 1980-1995 (art Monk's playing years)...IMO, The best way to do this is by judging 1st team All-Pro selections...This takes away the fan balloting and also provides a glimpse into how these WRs were viewed AT THE TIME, since these selections are made immediately following each and every season.
Here's the breakdown of ALL WRs chosen as 1st team All-Pros from 1980-1995 ONLY. This means they were the TOP TWO, and in a few cases(ties) THREE WRs from each year 1980-1995:
Jerry Rice-9 selections James Lofton-4 selections Sterling Sharpe-3 selections Steve Largent-2 selections Roy Green-2 selections Mike Quick-2 selections
Art Monk was chosen ONCE in his career as being the one of the BEST at his position..Here are all the other WRs chosen ONCE between 1980-1995: Alfred Jenkins, Wes Chandler, Dwight Clark, Louis Lipps, Al Toon, Gary Clark, Charlie Joiner, John Jefferson, Henry Ellard, Andre Rison, Micheal Irvin, Haywood Jeffries, Cris Carter, Herman Moore..
CLEARLY, Jerry Rice and James Lofton were consider the top 2 WRs of the Art Monk (1980-1995) era..I base this on the stats, the All-Pros and Pro Bowl selections..All 3 also played in multiple Super Bowls..James Lofton was selected on his FIFTH TRY into the HOF...Yet he was widely considered far more dominant than Art Monk was...Monk has waited 7 years so far..So how does this equal being "very, very overlooked"?
As i've said, I think Monk is deserving, but to this point, others have proven MORE deserving. Sooner or later, Monk will get his call and to me he's right on schedule. I'm trying to look at this objectively..I'm not a Redskins fan, so I don't have the rose colored glasses on..I'm also not an Art Monk hater..I'm a fan of the game, and a fan of the history of the game. Art Monk has a place in it, but it is no where near as pronounced as some Redskins/monk fans make it out to be.
GDM67, i love debating football issues, especially with someone as knowledgable as yourself..This debate belongs perfectly in this thread and I appreciate the banter. You feel strongly of your beliefs and there's nothing wrong with that. Like I said, just trying to give a more objective look after all the stories coming out about how Monk has been "filibustered" or whatever. I just don't buy it based on all the information I see about his true place in the game during his playing years...He's a marginal candidate..He's not Jerry Rice, Barry Sanders, Dan Marino good...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
They both played during the years of 1983-1995..Thats a 13 year sample to base from. Here are the totals from these years:
Art Monk---791 receptions....10,583 yds....58 TDs....3 Pro Bowl selections...1 First team All-Pro Selection Henry Ellard--723 receptions....12,163 yds....59 TDs....3 Pro Bowl selections....1 First team All-Pro Selection
Ellard also played along side a RB who was setting single season records in Eric Dickerson..So it wasn't as if he played in a pass only offense, he later played FOR THE REDSKINS replacing Art Monk with 3 straight 1,000 yard seasons...He was most definitely a FEARED deep threat, as well as a fine possession WR. Ellard can't get passed the NOMINEE round, Art Monk has been a finalist for 7 straight years...
Explain how Art Monk is head and shoulders better than Henry Ellard? Simply because he held the receptions record for a short time? Same as Billy Howton...Or because he played for a Championship team? There are plenty of Redskins who played right along side him that could make that argument and are not in the HOF or even mentioned in the same breath as the HOF...Charles Haley won 5 rings, he's not in yet...
Hopefully, you can at least see my point..Not trying to change anyone's mind..Just presenting an opposing view.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason i see your point so i think it is a waste of your $ for you to stock up on all those Monk ,Green ,Grim ect rookies you should sell them all to one of those crazy redskins fans CHEAP
Hmmm i wonder who i have in mind
Jason my friend you spent a lot of time living in the DC area ,You know Skinsfans will never agree with your arguement even if your points are valid.
No doubt about that Art...After living in DC for 3+ years, and then moving to Dallas (been here for almost 3 years now), I can say without a doubt..As hardcore as the Cowboys fans are, they ain't got nothing on Skins fans..Especially if you start bringing up the glory years of the 80's and 90's...lol
I've debated the Art Monk issue for years, and I hate to always look as if i am advocating AGAINST Monk, because I am absolutely not...Just that so many try and make the case FOR Monk way too strong that what the reality is..
Darrell Green is first ballot, 100% next year..Grimm, I would honestly put in before Monk..The Offensive line, IMO, had alot more to do with the Redskins great run than Art Monk did...And Grimm was the best of the lot...
I wouldn't put anything past Dan Snyder...Much like Mark Cuban here in Dallas, he is passionate about his team and would probably trade his first born for a title...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Credit Doug at pro-football-reference.com for this interesting piece...Shows exactly which WR were more dominant compared to their peers:
Gray ink Posted by Doug on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 For the purpose of assessing baseball players’ Hall of Fame chances, Bill James devised something he called the “Black Ink Test.” It essentially counts how many times a player led the league in any important stat, with extra credit given for the most important stats, e.g. home runs. The name derives from the fact that league leading stats are printed in bold type in most baseball encyclopedias. James also developed the “Gray Ink Test,” which is similar, but counts top ten performances instead of only league leading ones.
These tests are a bit simplistic and fail to adjust for certain things. Leading an 8-team league (in 1952) counts the same as leading a 16-team league (in 2006), to name just one. But it wasn’t intended to be anything more than what it is: a quick way to summarize some important information in a single number.
Despite not generally being a fan of Hall of Fame-type debates, I’ve gotten sucked into a few of them recently. And it certainly would be handy to have a quick way to summarize the number and quality of a given player’s outstanding seasons more easily than saying, “he never led the league in receiving yards, but he finished in the top five three times and in the top 10 seven times.” And then how do you compare that to the guy who led the league twice, but only had two other top ten finishes?
So I decided to develop a quick gray ink test for football players. Here’s how it goes. (Fantasy football players will recognize it as being very similar to VBD.)
Step 1: pick a stat and pick a baseline. I’ll use receiving yards as the stat and #10 as the baseline throughout this post, but you could do the same thing with 5 or 12 or 20 and with whatever stat you like.
Step 2: for each season of the player’s career, compare his stat to the baseline stat. If it’s above the baseline, he gets credit for the difference, normalized so that all years’ baseline stats are treated the same. Specifically, the player gets credit for
points worth of gray ink. The 1000 there is arbitrary, but is intended to be a typical number for the 10th-ranked receiver (if we were doing TDs instead of yards, I’d choose something more like 10 instead of 1000). Essentially, what this calculation does is attempt to ensure that players from offense-happy eras are not not unduly rewarded by inflation of the raw numbers. My assumption is that a player who had 1200 yards when the baseline was 800 has accomplished as much as a player who had 1500 yards when the baseline was 1000. The above calculation gives both players the same number of points: 500.
Step 3: add up the gray ink points for each season of each player’s career.
Again, this is by no means intended to be The One Stat Which Ends All Discussions. It’s just a quick way of capturing the number and quality of a player’s outstanding seasons. One thing I like about it is that it distinguishes between different levels of leading the league. Brett Favre led the league in passing TDs in 1995 and Dan Marino led the league in 1984, but Favre had only 16 more TD passes than the #10 guy, while Marino had 16 more TD tosses than the #2 guy and 29 more than the #10 guy. If you count them as being the same thing, you’re losing information. Likewise, Terrell Davis finished 2nd in rushing yards in 1996, but only 15 yards behind the leader. Had he gotten another 16 yards during the season, it really would not have changed anything about how impressive or how valuable his performance was, but in many debates during the coming decades, it would have changed that performance from a “top five performance” to a “league leading performance.”
Here are some wide receiver lists. They include all receivers who debuted in 1970 or later (I’m still not sure how to properly account for the much smaller leagues that were the norm before the merger).
Jerry Rice 3501 Michael Irvin 1679 Marvin Harrison 1402 Cliff Branch 1301 James Lofton 1285 Sterling Sharpe 1237 Torry Holt 1223 Steve Largent 1204 Wes Chandler 1178 Harold Carmichael 1148 Randy Moss 975 Henry Ellard 965 Drew Pearson 945 Gary Clark 807 Jimmy Smith 780 Tim Brown 735 Andre Rison 731 Isaac Bruce 713 Dwight Clark 685 Chad Johnson 677 John Jefferson 671 Ken Burrough 656 Isaac Curtis 594 Herman Moore 579 Mike Quick 563 Wesley Walker 554 Roy Green 537 Mel Gray 491 Stanley Morgan 476 Drew Hill 472 Anquan Boldin 466 Cris Collinsworth 456 John Stallworth 446 Carlos Carson 444 Anthony Miller 439 Art Monk 436 Rod Smith 430
Jerry Rice 2283 Michael Irvin 1013 Cliff Branch 897 Marvin Harrison 851 Harold Carmichael 701 Steve Largent 650 Drew Pearson 645 Henry Ellard 633 Wes Chandler 625 Sterling Sharpe 615 Torry Holt 601 Randy Moss 517 John Jefferson 454 Ken Burrough 435 Gary Clark 425 Dwight Clark 387 Wesley Walker 358 Isaac Bruce 346 James Lofton 335 Stanley Morgan 321 Jimmy Smith 276 Roger Carr 272 Mike Quick 260 Antonio Freeman 245 Rob Moore 244 Isaac Curtis 226 Andre Rison 214 David Boston 206 Herman Moore 201 Carlos Carson 190 Eric Moulds 188 Rod Smith 178 Roy Green 173 Mel Gray 166 JT Smith 155 Chad Johnson 142 John Stallworth 141
Jerry Rice 197 Marvin Harrison 108 Steve Largent 100 Dwight Clark 99 Cris Carter 99 Sterling Sharpe 98 Art Monk 85 Harold Carmichael 84 JT Smith 78 Ahmad Rashad 75 Herman Moore 68 Al Toon 65 Drew Pearson 59 Michael Irvin 58 Andre Rison 58 Torry Holt 58 Haywood Jeffires 57 Bob Chandler 55 Jimmy Smith 47 Tim Brown 46 Wes Chandler 43 Cliff Branch 39 Andre Reed 38 Randy Moss 36 Reggie Rucker 35 John Jefferson 35 John Stallworth 35 Anquan Boldin 32 Gary Clark 32 Rod Smith 30 Cris Collinsworth 30 Lynn Swann 29 Pat Tilley 28 Hines Ward 28 Chad Johnson 26 Muhsin Muhammad 26
Jerry Rice 103 Dwight Clark 75 Marvin Harrison 69 Sterling Sharpe 60 Art Monk 58 JT Smith 52 Harold Carmichael 42 Cris Carter 40 Steve Largent 36 Herman Moore 35 Al Toon 35 Ahmad Rashad 34 Bob Chandler 32 Jimmy Smith 31 Haywood Jeffires 26 Reggie Rucker 24 Torry Holt 24 Drew Pearson 21 Wes Chandler 20 Cris Collinsworth 20 Andre Rison 19 Terance Mathis 18 Randy Moss 18 Tim Brown 16 John Jefferson 15 Rod Smith 14 Michael Irvin 13 John Stallworth 13 Stanley Morgan 10 Rob Moore 10 Wally Francis 9 Hines Ward 9 Andre Johnson 9 Muhsin Muhammad 9 Anquan Boldin 9
Jerry Rice 67 Marvin Harrison 29 Terrell Owens 28 Randy Moss 27 Sterling Sharpe 26 Mark Clayton 26 Cris Carter 24 Cliff Branch 23 Andre Rison 20 Steve Largent 19 Mike Quick 17 John Jefferson 13 Roy Green 13 Harold Carmichael 13 John Stallworth 12 Carl Pickens 12 Sammy White 12 Wes Chandler 12 Isaac Curtis 10 Nat Moore 10 Antonio Freeman 9 Charlie Brown 9 Wesley Walker 9 Lynn Swann 8 Bob Chandler 8 Mark Duper 8 Rich Caster 8 Daryl Turner 8 Herman Moore 7 Isaac Bruce 7
Jerry Rice 47 Terrell Owens 22 Marvin Harrison 20 Randy Moss 19 Mark Clayton 15 Cliff Branch 14 Sterling Sharpe 13 Mike Quick 11 Andre Rison 10 Steve Largent 10 John Jefferson 10 Roy Green 9 Nat Moore 8 Wes Chandler 8 Cris Carter 6 Charlie Brown 6 Lynn Swann 5 Sammy White 5 John Stallworth 5 Alfred Jenkins 4 Steve Watson 4 Hines Ward 4 Isaac Curtis 4 Rich Caster 4 Carl Pickens 4 Michael Jackson 4 Tony Martin 4 Wesley Walker 4
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
Excellent article on Monk and Tagliabue..Unfortunately, they write the same thing every year on Monk..I think its turning the voters against him because if they vote for him now, they are just "folding to the fan pressure"..He's deserving and will eventually get in...
Mark me down as a Pat Fischer fan as well..Very under-rated especially for his size...The thing I always remember is how big his helmet looked on him....Kinda like PacMan Jones of the Titans now...lol..I don't particularly think he was a HOF caliber player, but a classic overachiever who always surprised you with how hard he could hit for a 170 CB...
Dave, Im just happy we are still talking football..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Holy Cow!!!!!!!!! You would think Hanberger is already a HOF'er...!!!! Anyone here the underbidder or winner?? I dont recognize the winner.
1968 Hanberger PSA 8
Makes the one I just won look like a steal. I think mine will get at least a 7....We'll see, I don't have it in hand yet....
This one cost $20 delivered.
Dave >>
That's a very sweet Hanburger!!!
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Art owns that Hanburger card like 5 times over already...I had a $200 snipe set that didn't even Register...I thought I would at least be close!!lol >>
I've tried for years to get Art to part with one of those many PSA-8 Hanburger cards he has with no luck. I did manage to pick one up for $100 a while back. I thought at the time I overpaid.
Robert
Any high grade OPC Jim Palmer
High grade Redskins (pre 1980)
Joe
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
I've never heard the fully story. Was he depressed? Was his wife cheating on him that caused him to snap? Did his wife have a terminal illness, so he took her out of her misery, then felt guilty about that and ate a gun?
Any Chiefs fans out there, can you fill us in with the sad details of this tragedy?
I've always felt he was deserving of the Hall too, but like another posted mentioned, maybe this is what's keeping him on the outside.
<< <i>I remember reading at the time that Tyrer was depressed over business failures. >>
That's consistent with what Wikipedia says. Sounds like Amway put him over the edge.
<< <i>Remaining in the Kansas City area following his retirement, Tyrer turned down an opportunity to serve as a scout for the Chiefs. He then spent the next three years as a salesman before tiring of the constant travel and investing in a tire business. However, a mild winter proved to be financially disastrous for Tyrer, who moved on to work for Amway.
This series of business misfortunes culminated on September 15, 1980 when Tyrer, the father of four, shot his wife and then committed suicide by turning the gun on himself. One of Tyrer's four children discovered the bodies. This is considered the primary reason he has not been nominated or elected to the "Pro Football" Hall of Fame, which, however, has ignored a wealth of anti-social behavior in numerous NFL inductees to its halls. >>
Vintage Football Card Gallery
So the old pyramid scheme (Amway) led to his demise. How sad.
Gets crazier by the day...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>Jason - most of those updates are because of the addition of the new HOF class.
Nick >>
Not sure what you're looking at Nick...There are now 27 updated sets, and only 5 of them were updated strictly for the 6 new HOFers...I wouldn't qualify 5 out of 27 as MOST...But that's just me..
Its there for the world to see if you want to look for yourself...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I just picked up a PSA 8 1957 Johnny Unitas.....perfectly centered 50/50. I'll post a scan when I get it. >>
You better!
<< <i>Looks like ESPN finally had it with Michael Irvin. I saw on ESPN News this morning that he is no longer with the network. No reason was given. >>
more on the story or non-story
<< <i>
<< <i>Looks like ESPN finally had it with Michael Irvin. I saw on ESPN News this morning that he is no longer with the network. No reason was given. >>
more on the story or non-story >>
Good, he was an annoyance on the show anyway...Lets hope he doesnt pop up on one of the other networks doing pre-game..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Yes, these football cards are really booming... I have put in several nice snipes on some cards only to be outbid including Tittle, Graham, and Wehrli. I have some money burning a hole in my pocket, but can't seem to add any cards to this set...
dave >>
Dave I've got a PSA 2 1935 Nagurski currently listed on ebay I would cut you a deal on if interested...I just picked up a PSA 3 recently..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I WILL own that card someday.. Just not anytime soon..
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Eventually I would like to own the card in PSA 6...
Probably no time soon though..Just never see them in that grade...I've seen a few PSA 7s available, and some PSA 4's..But never see 5's and 6s...
One of these days..lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Anyway here it is........Just take a minute to sign up to Network 54 if you dont have a login yet and post away.
Football Card Corner
I'm also taking suggestions for a new forum name. I didn't put much thought into it...LOL.....
Anyway, let me know what you think...
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
I'm there dude...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>64 Registered NFL HOF Rookie Player sets...25 of them have updated in the past 3 days...AMAZING...
Gets crazier by the day...lol
Jason >>
Mine updated because davemri was nice enough to help me with an upgrade on my 55 jim ringo, thanks again dave!
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>No problem, I assume it arrived safe and sound..?? >>
Packed great, I'll buy something next time you list on ebay just to leave feedback. Thanks again!
jim
Billy Howton retired as the All-Time receptions AND yardage leader in 1963..He had more Pro Bowls than Monk and was a 1st Team All-NFL selection more times than Art Monk..He avg. 16.8 YPC and scored 61 TDs in 142 career games vs. Monk who avg 13.5 YPC and scored 68 TDs in 224 career games...
I dont mean this as a slight to Monk, but to me better explains why he isn't in the HOF yet...
If Howton isn't in..Why should Art Monk be?
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The fact that Monk passed Largent (in) who passed Joiner (in), who passed Taylor (in)...this doesn't suggest a logical sequence to you? The fact that Monk was the first NFL reciever (and, yes, I know about Charley Hennigan) to catch 100 balls in a season, ushering in the modern era where that's the norm rather than an exception doesn't do anything? The fact that he had the consecutive games with a catch record, passing a similarly illustrious group of HOFers in that prusuit, setting there, and in several other instances, all the marks that Rice had to pass...this is irrelevant?
Monk isn't in the Hall for a group of reasons, none of which are really logical or supportable and none of which have anything to do with Billy Howton.
Monk played in an era when their where MANY WRs were catching 100+ balls...The same year Monk was the first to do it (1984) James Wilder caught 85 as a RB...Roy Green had more yards, and Paul Coffman, the GB TE had more TDs...It was also the ONLY year Monk ever did it...
Herman Moore caught 100+ in 3 different seasons..Is he a HOF lock?
The consecutive games streak speaks volumes on his dependability...Excellent, dependable, every day WR..HOFer? Maybe, possibly..But not the inconceivable HOF snub that some try and perpetuate...He probably will get in eventually, because he was a very good player and was good enough, long enough to compile some records that were all wiped out a couple of years later by Jerry Rice (to include the consecutive games record)...But he held them none the less and are worthy of consideration...Which realistically he has gotten, as he has been a finalist every single year he's been eligible.
How many times did Billy Howton have a presentation made for him in the HOF vote meeting? Try zero..vs. Monk and his 7 tries already...
My point here wasn't to say Monk isn't worthy, because I believe he is..But if a guy with similar accomplishments such as Billy Howton can be forgotten and brushed aside, why is it that Monk is supposedly "snubbed"? He should feel LUCKY that he's had his name and career debated for all the HOF voters for the last 7 years...He hasn't gotten the vote, but its not that he's been forgotten..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Monk was widely considered an easy choice at his retirement. He's been the victim of something close to a fillibuster by a small group of dishonest and/or foolish writers. That is a matter of record at this point, and it's becoming a truly embarrassing sore point for the league in general.
Art set the season record in '84. It stood for 8 years, until broken by Sterling Sharpe. The era of routine 100 catch seasons didn't really start until the mid 90's. He was a precursor to it. To have the fact that they are now routine thrown up in his face is absurd. They weren't when he did it. You should be judged against the standards set at the time you were playing. That seems pretty fundamental, to me.
If you look at the lists at the time he retired, he was at or near the top of all of them. The people immediatly surrounding him, on either side, are almost uniformly in the Hall of Fame. This is cut and dried, to me. To have owned the records for overall receptions, receptions in a season and the consecutive game record, plus being a key member of a team that appeared in 5 NFC title games, winning 4, plus 3 Super Bowls over a 10 year stretch, makes him not just obvious, but overwhelming. I'm sorry that's apparently not as clear to you.
Another consideration is the offensive coordinators and head coaching philosophy, sometimes based on a teams talent pool at any given time, that also may have impacted the players stats too.
You can have one head coach that's known as a running the ball down their throat type of coach, or you can have the Don Coryell's of the NFL that liked to pass on 65% of the downs, therefore inflating that teams passing numbers.
So we can sit here and debate this all day, but many factors contribute to these players career numbers.
On Billy Howton, a fine end who played his prime years mostly in the 1950's, be played on some awful Packers teams with mediocre running attacks. So he probably got a lot of balls thrown his way. I don't really know if he was ever considered one of the leagues best receivers during the era he played in other than the all-league selections he was voted onto or the pro bowls he may have played in. But he was a fine player nonetheless. He didn't play on any great teams other the Browns for a couple of seasons and never played in or on a NFL Championship team.
Monk, on the other hand played on three Super Bowl winners. The rest of his career story and has been covered in previous posts better than I could restate here.
An argument could be made about Lionel Taylor of the Broncos from the 1960's. He led the AFL in receptions like 5 or 6 times in his career, but he was an NFL reject. Should he get some HOF consideration? I really don't know.
What about the Giants TE Bob Tucker in the 1970's? He put up some great numbers on some bad teams during an era that was not very pass friendly. He made some all-pro and pro bowl teams too. A couple of years his stats resembled WR's of his era. Plus he played during the 14 game schedule seasons.
Even if you use the average catches and yards per game analysis, many players don't compare fairly again based on the teams use of that player and the era's they played in.
So in the end, every borderline candidate can be judged fairly or unfairly by us fans and the HOF selection committee and the debates will continue forever....
I was typing my response and you beat me to some of the same points. Nice post by the way.
Guys like George Atkinson, Lem Barney and Ken Houston were trying to kill you before then and generally getting away with it
<< <i>So in the end, every borderline candidate can be judged fairly or unfairly by us fans and the HOF selection committee and the debates will continue forever.... >>
This was the extent of my point..The argument I typically hear is that Monk is/was an OVERWHELMING and obvious HOFer who is being wrongfully kept out of the HOF for mysterious reasons...He is a borderline guy that warrants discussion, thats it. Jerry Rice? No discussion needed...Reggie White? No discussion needed...Dan Marino? No discussion needed...
Art Monk isn't in that class...Do his accomplishments deserve HOF recognition? I think they do...But that can be said about MANY MANY MANY players...Most of them have been discussed or named somewhere during this thread..lol..If you look at the 6 guys who went in the HOF this year, I don't see an issue putting any of them over Art Monk..You could make a case for the Senior guys not being more worthy than Monk, but those are guys, much like Billy Howton, who were LONG overlooked/snubbed while Monk has only been on the ballot for 7 years...Monk is going to have to wait his turn, and eventually it will come...in 2008, he still won't be the best WR on the board, as I would take Cris Carter over Monk every day of the week...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
This is one of many infuriating aspects of this: that his candidacy has been bottled up to the degree that it has while people benefitting from offenses geared around them and rules that encourage more passing catch up to his numbers. Then the people doing the artifical blocking of his candidacy turn around and point to his numbers receeding, something that wouldn't be a factor had they originally given him his due. Joseph Heller couldn't have imagined a more ridiculous state of affairs.
Art Monks BEST 7 year stretch (prime of his career) was 1984-1990...He caught 534 passes during this stretch for an average of 76.29 catches per year...This gives Monk the benefit of cutting off his early, less productive years as well as his last few seasons when he was no longer in his prime..
If you take the top 5 league leaders in receptions during those same 7 years, they averaged 83.74 catches per season from 1984-1990. He only finished in the top 5 three times in those 7 years...So while he was a fine WR, he wasn't as dominant as you might think, even during his PRIME years he was avaeraging 7.5 catches LESS than the top FIVE guys in the league were averaging (8.9% behind the top 5 guys)..
Cris Carter?? His best 7 years were 1994-2000..He caught 693 passes during this stretch for an average of 99.00 catches per season...Same as Monk, this takes Carter's PRIME YEARS ONLY into account...
If you take the top 5 league leaders in receptions from 1994-2000, they averaged 101.86 per season...Carter finished in the top 5 in 5 of those 7 seasons and was much closer to the average of the Top 5 WRs than Monk was during his prime...He was 2.5 catches behind the Top 5 average (2.8% behind the top 5)
You don't EVEN want to compare yards and TDs here, because Carter is head and shoulders above Monk in that respect...And you can use ONLY the averages from the guys who played during the same 7 year stretches to do the comparison..Its not close, I stopped doing the math it was so lopsided...lol
The only positive for Monk here is that Monk played for Championship caliber teams and Carter didn't...Take that for what its worth, but Carter was CLEARLY the more dominant WR, and was held in much higher regard by the fans, the media, and his peers based on Pro Bowls and All-Pro selections during each players prime...
Tim Brown isn't as good as Monk and I think he may run into the same problem of having to wait a few years before getting the nod..Where as Carter and Rice will go in first ballot, no question. I won't waste time arguing Monk vs. Brown, because for me, Monk was easily the better WR of the 2...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Not too bad
Was hoping for a 6 on the Sydahar,
Very happy about the Hickerson 8 ( ebay purchase for $4 about 4 months ago!! )
thought a couple of the 71's would make 9's must have just missed.
Got the 1960 fleer Ron Mix RC at a local show for $20
Sub # 4480556 Zip 63043
LINE # CERT # CARD CARD CO. CARD # CARD NAME VARIETY GRADE
1 31723304 1951 BOWMAN 21 ARNIE WEINMEISTER N/A 6
2 31723305 1952 BOWMAN LARGE 99 JOE STYDAHAR N/A 5
3 31723306 1957 TOPPS 129 JOE PERRY N/A 6
4 31723307 1959 TOPPS 47 DON OWENS N/A 7
5 31723308 1960 FLEER 118 RON MIX N/A 8
6 31723309 1961 TOPPS 190 LIONEL TAYLOR N/A 7
7 31723310 1963 TOPPS 56 ROSEY GRIER N/A 7
8 31723311 1965 PHILADELPHIA 61 JIM GIBBONS N/A 7
9 31723312 1965 PHILADELPHIA 13 BOB VOGEL N/A 7
10 31723313 1965 PHILADELPHIA 186 ANGELO COIA N/A 8
11 31723314 1965 PHILADELPHIA 10 JIM PARKER N/A 8
12 31723315 1966 PHILADELPHIA 45 GENE HICKERSON N/A 8
13 31723316 1967 PHILADELPHIA 178 DAVE WILCOX N/A 7
14 31723317 1967 PHILADELPHIA 165 JACKIE SMITH N/A 6
15 31723318 1967 PHILADELPHIA 183 CHRIS HANBURGER N/A 6
16 31723319 1969 TOPPS 26 BRYON PICCOLO N/A 6
17 31723320 1969 TOPPS 65 LARRY WILSON N/A 6
18 31723321 1970 TOPPS 30 BART STARR N/A 7
19 31723322 1970 TOPPS 87 BOB LILLY N/A 8
20 31723323 1970 TOPPS 45 MEL RENFRO N/A 8
21 31723324 1970 TOPPS 116 JIM OTTO N/A Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
22 31723325 1970 TOPPS 85 FRED BILETNIKOFF N/A 8
23 31723326 1970 TOPPS 113 LANCE RENTZEL RED NAME 8
24 31723327 1970 TOPPS 156 CLAUDE HUMPHREY N/A 8
24 31723328 1970 TOPPS 156 CLAUDE HUMPHREY N/A 8
25 31723329 1971 TOPPS 9 BILL VAN HEUSEN N/A 8
26 31723330 1971 TOPPS 18 GARY CUOZZO N/A 8
27 31723331 1971 TOPPS 48 AL ATKINSON N/A 8
28 31723332 1971 TOPPS 73 EMERSON BOOZER N/A 8
29 31723333 1971 TOPPS 85 CHARLIE JOHNSON N/A 8
Date Received: 01/05/2007
Date of Grades Posted: 02/20/2007
Date Shipped: No Date Specified
Nice results. Let me know if any are available. I would be interested in a 70 Humphrey or 51 Weinmeister.
dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Are one of the Claude Humphrey rc's for sale? If so, please e-mail me at montooth13@yahoo.com.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Ok..Time to bring some fact based info to this debate...lol >>
You are arguing in a construct of your own creation. I dont want to compare him to Carter, or Irvin for that matter, because it's essentially pointless. Art played most of his career in a different sort of game than Cris played his in, one that was more run oriented (especially on his team.) He was a deep threat for a few years, then a possession guy after the arrival of Clark and Sanders.
I've consistently maintained that he's best judged against his peers, like Largent, Lofton and Newsome, the same way Jim Taylor is more properly judged against Jim Brown or John Henry Johnson than Earl Campbell or Jerome Bettis. Carter vs. Monk is wholly artificial, borne solely out of the voters obdurate refusal to grant Monk his richly earned status in a timely fashion.
I only got involved in this debate again because of the whole Billy Howton thing. I'm still as angry about the whole HOF situation as I was, but I'm going to let it lie, because it's threatening to spin the whole thread quasi-OT. I think I've made my feelings on the matter clear, at this point.
I like Carter and feel he deserves enshrinement. As does Brown, and as do a lot of other overlooked guys from the past and upcoming ones in the future, but Monk is long, long overdue.
Robert
Any high grade OPC Jim Palmer
High grade Redskins (pre 1980)
<< <i>
I've consistently maintained that he's best judged against his peers, like Largent, Lofton and Newsome, the same way Jim Taylor is more properly judged against Jim Brown or John Henry Johnson than Earl Campbell or Jerome Bettis. Carter vs. Monk is wholly artificial, borne solely out of the voters obdurate refusal to grant Monk his richly earned status in a timely fashion.
I like Carter and feel he deserves enshrinement. As does Brown, and as do a lot of other overlooked guys from the past and upcoming ones in the future, but Monk is long, long overdue. >>
Ok fair enough...I will compare him ONLY to those player who played from 1980-1995 (art Monk's playing years)...IMO, The best way to do this is by judging 1st team All-Pro selections...This takes away the fan balloting and also provides a glimpse into how these WRs were viewed AT THE TIME, since these selections are made immediately following each and every season.
Here's the breakdown of ALL WRs chosen as 1st team All-Pros from 1980-1995 ONLY. This means they were the TOP TWO, and in a few cases(ties) THREE WRs from each year 1980-1995:
Jerry Rice-9 selections
James Lofton-4 selections
Sterling Sharpe-3 selections
Steve Largent-2 selections
Roy Green-2 selections
Mike Quick-2 selections
Art Monk was chosen ONCE in his career as being the one of the BEST at his position..Here are all the other WRs chosen ONCE between 1980-1995: Alfred Jenkins, Wes Chandler, Dwight Clark, Louis Lipps, Al Toon, Gary Clark, Charlie Joiner, John Jefferson, Henry Ellard, Andre Rison, Micheal Irvin, Haywood Jeffries, Cris Carter, Herman Moore..
CLEARLY, Jerry Rice and James Lofton were consider the top 2 WRs of the Art Monk (1980-1995) era..I base this on the stats, the All-Pros and Pro Bowl selections..All 3 also played in multiple Super Bowls..James Lofton was selected on his FIFTH TRY into the HOF...Yet he was widely considered far more dominant than Art Monk was...Monk has waited 7 years so far..So how does this equal being "very, very overlooked"?
As i've said, I think Monk is deserving, but to this point, others have proven MORE deserving. Sooner or later, Monk will get his call and to me he's right on schedule. I'm trying to look at this objectively..I'm not a Redskins fan, so I don't have the rose colored glasses on..I'm also not an Art Monk hater..I'm a fan of the game, and a fan of the history of the game. Art Monk has a place in it, but it is no where near as pronounced as some Redskins/monk fans make it out to be.
GDM67, i love debating football issues, especially with someone as knowledgable as yourself..This debate belongs perfectly in this thread and I appreciate the banter. You feel strongly of your beliefs and there's nothing wrong with that. Like I said, just trying to give a more objective look after all the stories coming out about how Monk has been "filibustered" or whatever. I just don't buy it based on all the information I see about his true place in the game during his playing years...He's a marginal candidate..He's not Jerry Rice, Barry Sanders, Dan Marino good...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
...and especially this thread.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
Art Monk vs. Henry Ellard.
They both played during the years of 1983-1995..Thats a 13 year sample to base from. Here are the totals from these years:
Art Monk---791 receptions....10,583 yds....58 TDs....3 Pro Bowl selections...1 First team All-Pro Selection
Henry Ellard--723 receptions....12,163 yds....59 TDs....3 Pro Bowl selections....1 First team All-Pro Selection
Ellard also played along side a RB who was setting single season records in Eric Dickerson..So it wasn't as if he played in a pass only offense, he later played FOR THE REDSKINS replacing Art Monk with 3 straight 1,000 yard seasons...He was most definitely a FEARED deep threat, as well as a fine possession WR. Ellard can't get passed the NOMINEE round, Art Monk has been a finalist for 7 straight years...
Explain how Art Monk is head and shoulders better than Henry Ellard? Simply because he held the receptions record for a short time? Same as Billy Howton...Or because he played for a Championship team? There are plenty of Redskins who played right along side him that could make that argument and are not in the HOF or even mentioned in the same breath as the HOF...Charles Haley won 5 rings, he's not in yet...
Hopefully, you can at least see my point..Not trying to change anyone's mind..Just presenting an opposing view.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hmmm i wonder who i have in mind
Jason my friend you spent a lot of time living in the DC area ,You know Skinsfans will never agree with your arguement even if your points are valid.
Maybe Dan Snyder can just buy Arts way in lol
I've debated the Art Monk issue for years, and I hate to always look as if i am advocating AGAINST Monk, because I am absolutely not...Just that so many try and make the case FOR Monk way too strong that what the reality is..
Darrell Green is first ballot, 100% next year..Grimm, I would honestly put in before Monk..The Offensive line, IMO, had alot more to do with the Redskins great run than Art Monk did...And Grimm was the best of the lot...
I wouldn't put anything past Dan Snyder...Much like Mark Cuban here in Dallas, he is passionate about his team and would probably trade his first born for a title...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Gray ink
Posted by Doug on Wednesday, February 14, 2007
For the purpose of assessing baseball players’ Hall of Fame chances, Bill James devised something he called the “Black Ink Test.” It essentially counts how many times a player led the league in any important stat, with extra credit given for the most important stats, e.g. home runs. The name derives from the fact that league leading stats are printed in bold type in most baseball encyclopedias. James also developed the “Gray Ink Test,” which is similar, but counts top ten performances instead of only league leading ones.
These tests are a bit simplistic and fail to adjust for certain things. Leading an 8-team league (in 1952) counts the same as leading a 16-team league (in 2006), to name just one. But it wasn’t intended to be anything more than what it is: a quick way to summarize some important information in a single number.
Despite not generally being a fan of Hall of Fame-type debates, I’ve gotten sucked into a few of them recently. And it certainly would be handy to have a quick way to summarize the number and quality of a given player’s outstanding seasons more easily than saying, “he never led the league in receiving yards, but he finished in the top five three times and in the top 10 seven times.” And then how do you compare that to the guy who led the league twice, but only had two other top ten finishes?
So I decided to develop a quick gray ink test for football players. Here’s how it goes. (Fantasy football players will recognize it as being very similar to VBD.)
Step 1: pick a stat and pick a baseline. I’ll use receiving yards as the stat and #10 as the baseline throughout this post, but you could do the same thing with 5 or 12 or 20 and with whatever stat you like.
Step 2: for each season of the player’s career, compare his stat to the baseline stat. If it’s above the baseline, he gets credit for the difference, normalized so that all years’ baseline stats are treated the same. Specifically, the player gets credit for
1000 * (PlayerYards - BaselineYards) / BaselineYards
points worth of gray ink. The 1000 there is arbitrary, but is intended to be a typical number for the 10th-ranked receiver (if we were doing TDs instead of yards, I’d choose something more like 10 instead of 1000). Essentially, what this calculation does is attempt to ensure that players from offense-happy eras are not not unduly rewarded by inflation of the raw numbers. My assumption is that a player who had 1200 yards when the baseline was 800 has accomplished as much as a player who had 1500 yards when the baseline was 1000. The above calculation gives both players the same number of points: 500.
Step 3: add up the gray ink points for each season of each player’s career.
Again, this is by no means intended to be The One Stat Which Ends All Discussions. It’s just a quick way of capturing the number and quality of a player’s outstanding seasons. One thing I like about it is that it distinguishes between different levels of leading the league. Brett Favre led the league in passing TDs in 1995 and Dan Marino led the league in 1984, but Favre had only 16 more TD passes than the #10 guy, while Marino had 16 more TD tosses than the #2 guy and 29 more than the #10 guy. If you count them as being the same thing, you’re losing information. Likewise, Terrell Davis finished 2nd in rushing yards in 1996, but only 15 yards behind the leader. Had he gotten another 16 yards during the season, it really would not have changed anything about how impressive or how valuable his performance was, but in many debates during the coming decades, it would have changed that performance from a “top five performance” to a “league leading performance.”
Here are some wide receiver lists. They include all receivers who debuted in 1970 or later (I’m still not sure how to properly account for the much smaller leagues that were the norm before the merger).
Receiving yards, baseline #10, typical baseline receiver = 1000 yards
Jerry Rice 3501
Michael Irvin 1679
Marvin Harrison 1402
Cliff Branch 1301
James Lofton 1285
Sterling Sharpe 1237
Torry Holt 1223
Steve Largent 1204
Wes Chandler 1178
Harold Carmichael 1148
Randy Moss 975
Henry Ellard 965
Drew Pearson 945
Gary Clark 807
Jimmy Smith 780
Tim Brown 735
Andre Rison 731
Isaac Bruce 713
Dwight Clark 685
Chad Johnson 677
John Jefferson 671
Ken Burrough 656
Isaac Curtis 594
Herman Moore 579
Mike Quick 563
Wesley Walker 554
Roy Green 537
Mel Gray 491
Stanley Morgan 476
Drew Hill 472
Anquan Boldin 466
Cris Collinsworth 456
John Stallworth 446
Carlos Carson 444
Anthony Miller 439
Art Monk 436
Rod Smith 430
Receiving yards, baseline #5, typical baseline receiver = 1200 yards
Jerry Rice 2283
Michael Irvin 1013
Cliff Branch 897
Marvin Harrison 851
Harold Carmichael 701
Steve Largent 650
Drew Pearson 645
Henry Ellard 633
Wes Chandler 625
Sterling Sharpe 615
Torry Holt 601
Randy Moss 517
John Jefferson 454
Ken Burrough 435
Gary Clark 425
Dwight Clark 387
Wesley Walker 358
Isaac Bruce 346
James Lofton 335
Stanley Morgan 321
Jimmy Smith 276
Roger Carr 272
Mike Quick 260
Antonio Freeman 245
Rob Moore 244
Isaac Curtis 226
Andre Rison 214
David Boston 206
Herman Moore 201
Carlos Carson 190
Eric Moulds 188
Rod Smith 178
Roy Green 173
Mel Gray 166
JT Smith 155
Chad Johnson 142
John Stallworth 141
Receptions, baseline #10, typical baseline receiver = 70 receptions
Jerry Rice 197
Marvin Harrison 108
Steve Largent 100
Dwight Clark 99
Cris Carter 99
Sterling Sharpe 98
Art Monk 85
Harold Carmichael 84
JT Smith 78
Ahmad Rashad 75
Herman Moore 68
Al Toon 65
Drew Pearson 59
Michael Irvin 58
Andre Rison 58
Torry Holt 58
Haywood Jeffires 57
Bob Chandler 55
Jimmy Smith 47
Tim Brown 46
Wes Chandler 43
Cliff Branch 39
Andre Reed 38
Randy Moss 36
Reggie Rucker 35
John Jefferson 35
John Stallworth 35
Anquan Boldin 32
Gary Clark 32
Rod Smith 30
Cris Collinsworth 30
Lynn Swann 29
Pat Tilley 28
Hines Ward 28
Chad Johnson 26
Muhsin Muhammad 26
Receptions, baseline #5, typical baseline receiver = 80 receptions
Jerry Rice 103
Dwight Clark 75
Marvin Harrison 69
Sterling Sharpe 60
Art Monk 58
JT Smith 52
Harold Carmichael 42
Cris Carter 40
Steve Largent 36
Herman Moore 35
Al Toon 35
Ahmad Rashad 34
Bob Chandler 32
Jimmy Smith 31
Haywood Jeffires 26
Reggie Rucker 24
Torry Holt 24
Drew Pearson 21
Wes Chandler 20
Cris Collinsworth 20
Andre Rison 19
Terance Mathis 18
Randy Moss 18
Tim Brown 16
John Jefferson 15
Rod Smith 14
Michael Irvin 13
John Stallworth 13
Stanley Morgan 10
Rob Moore 10
Wally Francis 9
Hines Ward 9
Andre Johnson 9
Muhsin Muhammad 9
Anquan Boldin 9
Receiving TDs, baseline #10, typical baseline receiver = 8 TDs
Jerry Rice 67
Marvin Harrison 29
Terrell Owens 28
Randy Moss 27
Sterling Sharpe 26
Mark Clayton 26
Cris Carter 24
Cliff Branch 23
Andre Rison 20
Steve Largent 19
Mike Quick 17
John Jefferson 13
Roy Green 13
Harold Carmichael 13
John Stallworth 12
Carl Pickens 12
Sammy White 12
Wes Chandler 12
Isaac Curtis 10
Nat Moore 10
Antonio Freeman 9
Charlie Brown 9
Wesley Walker 9
Lynn Swann 8
Bob Chandler 8
Mark Duper 8
Rich Caster 8
Daryl Turner 8
Herman Moore 7
Isaac Bruce 7
Receiving TDs, baseline #5, typical baseline receiver = 10 TDs
Jerry Rice 47
Terrell Owens 22
Marvin Harrison 20
Randy Moss 19
Mark Clayton 15
Cliff Branch 14
Sterling Sharpe 13
Mike Quick 11
Andre Rison 10
Steve Largent 10
John Jefferson 10
Roy Green 9
Nat Moore 8
Wes Chandler 8
Cris Carter 6
Charlie Brown 6
Lynn Swann 5
Sammy White 5
John Stallworth 5
Alfred Jenkins 4
Steve Watson 4
Hines Ward 4
Isaac Curtis 4
Rich Caster 4
Carl Pickens 4
Michael Jackson 4
Tony Martin 4
Wesley Walker 4
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.