<< <i>Slabs have done nothing good for the Hobby! They have created crooks(SGS), thousands of people who can't grade and rely on what the slab tells them. Mear SHEEP!
I guess I disagree completely with your first sentence, and then it all goes downhill from there.
Slabs have done nothing good for the hobby? You would be hard-pressed to find many serious collectors who believe this. Even those in the minority who feel slabs have done more harm than good can find some good.
As for creating crooks, crooks have always found a way to be crooks in the coin biz. Always have, always will. The reputable TPGs have levelled the playing field for the novice.
No offense, but you should probably fix the "Numastics" typo in your thread title, too. >>
I agree 100% about the novice being able to buy a slab coin and feel protected. But then the novice gets complacent and does not want to learn to grade and buys numbers on slabs. What have they learned? Nothing! Crooks, have been and always will be there. The solution is education! With Education you can avoid many downfalls in life. I take no offense to your last comment.
<< <i>Okay, I do agree that as slabbing is a form of an insurance policy, this enabled sight-unseen buying and selling of coins, and with this safety net, this has contributed to coins fetching the monies they are bringing today. Due to slabbing and the internet, dealers can't cheat collectors as consistently as they did in the pre-slabbing era. >>
True. This is probably my most-despised by-product of slabbing: it got enough people deeply into "the game" that many coins that I once thought would be obtainable once I had a decent job and decent income are now out of reach, probably permanently.
A lot of people with little coin-savvy but deep pockets now tread fearlessly, throwing lots of money around. >>
You and me both! But thats besides the fact. People can collect how they like and what they want as long as they are prepared to lose the money the invested.
<< <i>The changes that TPG's have brought to numismatics are many and complex. Many of the changes are wonderful and beneficial for the average collector. Many of the changes are not so good. If anybody paints the situation as "all terrible" or "all wonderful" then they are being overly simplistic and dogmatic. >>
The only complex thing I see now more than ever is more designations being added to slabs that did not exist before. People then go pay huge premiums for the designation on the slab. Such as FB Dimes. Why should we let the TPG's tell us how much our coins are worth? I never once said it was 100% one way or the other. But now people think they can get rich quick buying slabs and selling them to dealers, only to find out they have been taken. VTCoins made such a post the other day. Arm yourself with a book not a slab. Knowledge will always win out.
<< <i>Buy raw, sell slabbed. Especially if an "online sale". Nearly impossible to realize full monetary potential otherwise, even with the best pics. >>
The sad part is this is true in todays online world. Slabs own the market pretty much when selling any coin of value.
anyone not at least considering these 10 suggestions in some form is bound for trouble. paying particular attention to numbers 4 and 5, looking at holdered coins and buying only PCGS and NGC examples until we can each grade with a modicum of profeciency will provide a safety net of sorts. and remember what the old Bard said-----"Nothing is good or bad except my thinking makes it so." this includes slabbed coins and all that goes along with them. personally, i enjoy the appearance of a slabbed coin, the uniformity and protection provided along with the authentication and opinion on the insert. i have an 18 coin submission that'll go out tomorrow, mostly stuff for my personal collections and a few items to sell to offset the fees.
now, while that was a good rant as rants go, climb off the sour apple cart and get your priorities in line. my hunch is that if you do you'll enjoy the hobby a little more. also, you might consider a brief hiatus from collecting, maybe take a hunting trip out west and go looking for a MEAR SHEEP that you can hang in the trophy room!!
<< <i>what's a Mear SHEEP, something like a Mounting Goat?? >>
The TPG's would be your sheperd and you would be the sheep buying numbers on the slabs. Arm yourself with books, and you become the sheperd controlling the sheep(your coins)
<< <i>The sad part is this is true in todays online world. Slabs own the market pretty much when selling any coin of value. >>
This is largely true also.
You can see it whenever someone wants to sell a nice/valuable coin, and the inevitable question is, "why isn't it slabbed?" Some people just enjoy their coins raw.
I'm not saying slabbing is the worst thing ever, or even that it's a net *detriment* to numismatics -- but there are quite a few downsides to them as well.
<< <i>anyone not at least considering these 10 suggestions in some form is bound for trouble. paying particular attention to numbers 4 and 5, looking at holdered coins and buying only PCGS and NGC examples until we can each grade with a modicum of profeciency will provide a safety net of sorts. and remember what the old Bard said-----"Nothing is good or bad except my thinking makes it so." this includes slabbed coins and all that goes along with them. personally, i enjoy the appearance of a slabbed coin, the uniformity and protection provided along with the authentication and opinion on the insert. i have an 18 coin submission that'll go out tomorrow, mostly stuff for my personal collections and a few items to sell to offset the fees.
now, while that was a good rant as rants go, climb off the sour apple cart and get your priorities in line. my hunch is that if you do you'll enjoy the hobby a little more. also, you might consider a brief hiatus from collecting, maybe take a hunting trip out west and go looking for a MEAR SHEEP that you can hang in the trophy room!! >>
If your a fan of the appearance of a slab more power to you. I like the raw look of coins. Your 10 rules are good for beginners, but then the beginner just uses that "safety net as a crutch more than a net and never does learn to grade. On a side note I have been enjoying the hobby quite well. I find the hunt for coins, slabbed or non slabbed alot of the fun. I find that getting a good deal beause of your knowledge makes the coin that much better than just buying a number on a slab or a variety. As for the mear sheep, some exist on this board, so I will not need to look far.
Ok Genius.......go to eBay or a dealer and buy 10 slabbed key date coins from PCGS, ANACS and NGC....Then go to ebay or a dealer and buy 10 raw key date coins.......anyone want to wager what will happen???
<< <i>The sad part is this is true in todays online world. Slabs own the market pretty much when selling any coin of value. >>
This is largely true also.
You can see it whenever someone wants to sell a nice/valuable coin, and the inevitable question is, "why isn't it slabbed?" Some people just enjoy their coins raw.
I'm not saying slabbing is the worst thing ever, or even that it's a net *detriment* to numismatics -- but there are quite a few downsides to them as well. >>
I agree 100% and thus I search out raw coins that I can grade. This makes for some pretty sweet buys for me.
sadly, you seem mired in an attitudinal rut, Bruce. i for one hopre the light at the tunnel's end appears sin short order for you. time is just too brief to wrestle with.
<< <i>Ok Genius.......go to eBay or a dealer and buy 10 slabbed key date coins from PCGS, ANACS and NGC....Then go to ebay or a dealer and buy 10 raw key date coins.......anyone want to wager what will happen??? >>
The chances are no greated you will get ripped off if you have the knowledge to know what you are looking at. A fake 1909 S VDB is the same if it is raw or it slipped into a slab. Many dealers have taken the same stance as alot of collectors. Just because a coin is slabbed it should be worth more and many times it is in todays market. Truly sad to think this has become the normal.
<< <i>sadly, you seem mired in an attitudinal rut, Bruce. i for one hopre the light at the tunnel's end appears sin short order for you. time is just too brief to wrestle with.
good luck, send a PM if i can ever assist yo. >>
I will say I do at times buy slabs, and while I think they are horrid that will not stop me from buying the coin I want should it be in one.
The only complex thing I see now more than ever is more designations being added to slabs that did not exist before.
If that's all you see, then you are not thinking about this issue in a very sophisticated way. Many folks have already done a great job in outlining the many benefits and problems associated with slabbing- many issues in life are not black and white....
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
<< <i>The only complex thing I see now more than ever is more designations being added to slabs that did not exist before.
If that's all you see, then you are not thinking about this issue in a very sophisticated way. Many folks have already done a great job in outlining the many benefits and problems associated with slabbing- many issues in life are not black and white.... >>
Ok so there there are a few more than one, but that one sticks out in my mind. You are correct many issues in life are not black and white. Coins being one of them. Knowledge is the key to success.
<< <i>Bruce. You DO NOT have to quote every post and or respond to every poster.
Try listening instead of battling.
You cannot listen if you are pre-occupied with defending yourself against any and all comers. >>
Thats a good point! This thread might be out of the norm for alot of collectors, but it does speak what a great many of them have wanted to say. I just stepped up and said many of those things.
Bruce--listen to Boom. I don't necessarily disagree with some of your sentiments--slabbing is a little over the top at times and i do feel sorry for those who insist on buying only slabbed coins, I think they can miss some nice raw coins--but no one is forcing anyone to buy them. They do offer peace of mind when you are dealing with key coins, etc.
<< <i>This thread might be out of the norm for alot of collectors, but it does speak what a great many of them have wanted to say. I just stepped up and said many of those things. >>
<< <i>This thread might be out of the norm for alot of collectors, but it does speak what a great many of them have wanted to say. I just stepped up and said many of those things. >>
Congratulations. Now please stop typing. >>
Ok I think thats a fair assement. Not much more can be said to this subject. I will let it go. On a side note the 1939 Lincoln you have is very cool. Thats one coin if I had the money for right now I would be buying. Hopefully the new owner will enjoy the coin.
From the point of view of a novice, I give this thread a
One of the points brought up, is the BIG price jump for a point or 2 in MS. Or why is a $5 coin raw a $2500 coin in a slab. Is the opinion of a TPG really worth that much?. (assuming PCGS)
And someone said they buy or slab coins for protection only period. Would'nt an airtight provide just as much protection, and be cheeper?
And last Alot has been said of consistancy brought by the TPGs, But alot of the posts I read here complain about a LACK of consistancy from the TPGs. Not only between services, but also from one service.(So I have to assume it was 100 % worse before TPGs)
This tends to make things confussing for us novicese. I still had to vote FOR TPGs in the poll. PZ
(Old man) Look I had a lovely supper, and all I said to my wife was, “That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah”.
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
<< <i>Ok Genius.......go to eBay or a dealer and buy 10 slabbed key date coins from PCGS, ANACS and NGC....Then go to ebay or a dealer and buy 10 raw key date coins.......anyone want to wager what will happen??? >>
I guess one could try the same thing selling. Good luck getting TOP DOLLAR for all of your raw coins.
<< <i>Thats a good point! This thread might be out of the norm for alot of collectors, but it does speak what a great many of them have wanted to say. I just stepped up and said many of those things. >>
Do you really believe that statement is true; that most folks here think that slabs are the worst thing to happen to numismatics? Or that other collectors who don't come here feel the same way?
I remember when third party grading started. Many dealer hated it with a passion. They could no longer buy at one grade and then sell at another grade. The bottom line is collectors demand slabbed coins. If they didn't, dealers wouldn't go to the trouble and expense of having their coins slabbed.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Sadly I am unable to attend every coin show to examine the coins I want, and if faced with the dilemma to buy a coin over the Internet I can at least rest assured that a TPG has seen it in person.
While its no substitute for an in person visual inspection, a quality TPG carries some weight in my mind. Yes, there are coins in slabs where I feel they have missed the boat, but they maintain a better accuracy rate than I do from a digital image. Also, there are sliders that can get past me, I am not the expert. Three people looking at the coin reduces my risk.
<< <i>The bottom line is collectors demand slabbed coins. If they didn't, dealers wouldn't go to the trouble and expense of having their coins slabbed. >>
<< <i>I remember when third party grading started. Many dealer hated it with a passion. They could no longer buy at one grade and then sell at another grade. The bottom line is collectors demand slabbed coins. If they didn't, dealers wouldn't go to the trouble and expense of having their coins slabbed. >>
If slabs were so collector oriented at the start, why didn't collectors start the slab companies rather than investment-oriented dealers?
Heck, can't miss out on this one... Here is the problem I have with slabs, especially premium coins in slabs. There will come a time when the ultimate results of the crack out game will be nothing but overgraded, or borderline overgraded coins in slabs. Honestly, the lure of the 1 point gain and the sometimes 10x change in price that goes with it will cause folks to submit and re-submit until the desired grade is achieved. Now, a coin may grade MS66 19 times of 20, and MS67 the 20th. Is that coin an MS67? Well, no, I'd argue it has recieved a 95% vote that it is an MS66, but it is now holdered MS67, driving MS67 money. So the buyer gets a tired MS66 coin that worked its way through the system for the lucky bump. Eventually, all rarities are bound to get more and more this way, sadly, cause that's the way we like our coins... holdered and in the highest grade possible. I hate it. I live with it, and frankly try to buy holdered coins when possible, due to fear of bad photography, etc on raw coins... but I hate it. Buy the coin not the holder? Great words. But just words. The holder is everything. Prices are driven by the holder, not the coin, and that is a fact. Ultimately a huge negative at the upper end of the hobby. Frankly, even coin dealers I talk to have started relying on the holder. I had a guy at a trade show tell me to have a coin holdered and he might consider buying it, but it was too tough to grade and value without the holder. Kind of sad, really.
Here is my somewhat subdued, filtered translation of the original post:
Slabs give many buyers (as well as sellers) a false sense of security, and in some cases, value. Slabs also make buyers and sellers lazy. The aforementioned can lead to problems and dangers which are just as great as those which existed before slabs. I can agree with that.
Hey I thought this thread was about NUMASTICS !!! Since when is it about NUMISMATICS ???
Best thing ever to happen to the hobby: TPG's. Worst thing ever to happen to the hobby: TPG's. Most important thing ever to happen to the hobby: TPG's.
<< <i>Hey I thought this thread was about NUMASTICS !!! Since when is it about NUMISMATICS ???
Best thing ever to happen to the hobby: TPG's. Worst thing ever to happen to the hobby: TPG's. Most important thing ever to happen to the hobby: TPG's.
Best, Sunnywood >>
Well put Sunnywood. I will add this: TPGs mean different things to different people. If you were to purchase a $1000+ coin, I would imagine that a TPG certified coin would help you to sleep at night. To me conditional rarity is not worth a marginal premium (i.e. a $1000 for a point). That is only my opinion and I could very well be wrong.
I think there are other things that are far worse in this hobby--try coin doctors or counterfeiters.
The banknote/paper money hobby is going through the same kind of startup "pains" right now. Many dealers hate for the same reasons expressed here about coin dealers when TPG of coins began. Many collectors cut the notes out of the holders (terrible idea) because they hate the thought of slabbing. But many coins dealers are flocking to paper money as if it were a gold rush. Prices are going through the roof. Etc. Etc.
I personally like it because I think it eradicates many more problems for collectors than it creates. But to each his own.
It's just a very interesting phenomena to me. Coins, sportscards, comic books, paper money... Wonder what's next?
When you know it only grades a solid MS65, but it's in a MS67 holder and yet, the seller wants MS67 money!?! You can add this one to the, "I hate slabs" sector!
Here's another reason for the irregularities in the certificating of coins, whomever you want to refer to, it's a great way to ward off the investors and helps make coins available for your collections. And yes, there's more to this one but figure it out for yourselves!
If THEY, again, whomever you want to refer to, don't know or could care less about how to grade coins but buy the opinion on the slab for investment purposes then they're basically scr....wing themselves!
And one more! Ah! Now I remember! The inconsistencies seen in the certification of coins business actually promotes collecting if you think about it. Is there a faster way of learning to grade coins then getting ripped on the first few buys. For those new collectors, if any of them truly have a love for coin collecting, they will start out slow, buy low and learn quickly.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
This is a good thread that hopefully will continue to be discussed. TPG`s started out raising the bar as an insurance against abuse ( as a lack of a better way to put it )and now brought in a new set of problems. Maybe the tables might have been tipped since.
"They have created crooks(SGS), thousands of people who can't grade and rely on what the slab tells them. Mear SHEEP!" "There are thousands of "sheep" buying slabs and not the coins!"
I wholeheartedly concur with these observations. Slabs, at least from the legitimate companies ARE a big plus for eliminating counterfeit and altered coins tho.
I don't have time to go through all of this. I started to collect in the 1960s. Except for two or three dealers I met here in Los Angeles and a few auctions, you were fresh meat being fed to piranhas.
At least now, with top tier slabs, you have a bit of a "safety net." Would you buy a $5K or $10K item without any guarantee whatsoever? Welcome to the world or raw coins. Come on down! Buy an expensive raw coin which has been artificially toned, puttied or cleaned. Have fun trying to get your money back.
In the bad old days, any coin you bought would not be bought by a dealer, except at a lower grade (and price). Of course, after he bought the coin from you, it magically returned to the grade at which it was sold to you in the first place.
Whenever I wanted to buy an Unc. coin, I had to look through many sliders, whizzed and cleaned coins before -- and if -- I found something that was acceptable. It's a lot like finding an acceptable MS 65 Barber Half, in an odd sort of way. At least now, I have a lot less s**t to look at before finding an acceptable coin.
I never bought a 16 D dime because there were more fakes out there than real ones, and if I bought a fake, I had no recourse, anywhere.
Coin doctors are out there because people are willing to spend big bucks on coins. They love the fact that so many people out there are so sure of their grading skills. While I think I can grade the series of coins I collect, sometimes one will get by me. Another insurance policy I have is someone I know who knows more than I do who can spot this stuff.
So senhor, keep buying raw coins. But when - not if - you get an unpleasant surprise when you want to sell them, you will have yourself to blame. Buying raw coins is like riding motorcycles. It's just a matter of time before you get in a wreck.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>I don't have time to go through all of this. I started to collect in the 1960s. Except for two or three dealers I met here in Los Angeles and a few auctions, you were fresh meat being fed to piranhas.
At least now, with top tier slabs, you have a bit of a "safety net." Would you buy a $5K or $10K item without any guarantee whatsoever? Welcome to the world or raw coins. Come on down! Buy an expensive raw coin which has been artificially toned, puttied or cleaned. Have fun trying to get your money back.
In the bad old days, any coin you bought would not be bought by a dealer, except at a lower grade (and price). Of course, after he bought the coin from you, it magically returned to the grade at which it was sold to you in the first place.
Whenever I wanted to buy an Unc. coin, I had to look through many sliders, whizzed and cleaned coins before -- and if -- I found something that was acceptable. It's a lot like finding an acceptable MS 65 Barber Half, in an odd sort of way. At least now, I have a lot less s**t to look at before finding an acceptable coin.
I never bought a 16 D dime because there were more fakes out there than real ones, and if I bought a fake, I had no recourse, anywhere.
Coin doctors are out there because people are willing to spend big bucks on coins. They love the fact that so many people out there are so sure of their grading skills. While I think I can grade the series of coins I collect, sometimes one will get by me. Another insurance policy I have is someone I know who knows more than I do who can spot this stuff.
So senhor, keep buying raw coins. But when - not if - you get an unpleasant surprise when you want to sell them, you will have yourself to blame. Buying raw coins is like riding motorcycles. It's just a matter of time before you get in a wreck. >>
Some of us expect to be collecting longer than the slabbing companies are around.
And turning my sarcasm on for a second, I never realized that slabs emitted magical S-rays which turn the dishonest coin dealers into honest ones, whether buying or selling. I guess those with slabbed coins don't have to worry about overpaying, or underselling. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Slabs have their place in the hobby and are here for the long term. They came into being for a reason. While some people yearn for a return to the old days, it is not happening. One consideration as everyone is always saying, "learn to grade". How do you bring more people into the hobby if you need to be an expert grader of raw coins. I know it has taken me years as a hobbyist to learn one series such that I would buy a raw coin.
Getting burned over raw coins (and I was also many years ago) kept me OUT of the hobby for a long time. I am now back in and if I want to buy a coin for my type set that is out of my expertise (indian gold for example) and I want to make sure it is not a fake, I buy a slabbed coin.
It comes down to this, the more information an individual has regarding an item, the better off he is. Let's also remember that not all slabs are created equally. For myself, I regard certain slabs as problem raw coins, especially if they are four figure and up coins.
At worst a slab from PCGS gives an intelligent opinion regarding the coin. EVERYONE is free to agree or disagree with that opinion and if you like your coins raw you are free to liberate the coin and enjoy it that way.
One final thought (probably expressed elseswhere but I did not read the entire thread). This is the wrong place to bash slabbing in terms of it being the worst thing to happen to numismatics. Remember who is PAYING for your ability to express and opinion and the reason most folks post here. PCGS is the market leader and using their forum to tell them to get out of business makes no sense, yet they continue to allow you to bash them. Speaks WELL of PCGS in my mind. They have a FAR more open mind than you do.
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
<< <i>SLABS ARE THE WORST THING IN NUMASTICS TO COME OUT!!
Slabs are not a substitute for knowledge, but it sure is nice to have a coin that is guaranteed to be authentic and to have an unbiased opinion of a ballpark grade. I would never have been comfortable buying the types of coins that I buy, especially when I was getting started, without them. The major TPGs and their services are not a panacea for the ills of the coin hobby. If you do not like certified coins, by all means, do not buy them, but please do not tell me how to collect coins. >>
The guaranteed authentic is big to me. I have a 32-S Washington I showed to a couple of dealers. Both thought it was fake. It had been cleaned so I sent it to ANACS. They slabbed it as cleaned so now I can sell it without having to worry about it and the buyer knows it's guaranteed as authentic as well. I think we could at least all agree that is a "good thing."
There were, and probably still, more "crooks" selling raw coins. At least with the reputable slab companies, we can have a degree of confidence trading on the internet. That could never happen with raw coins.
IMO, slabbing will gut this hobby of all the folks who want to just "collect". IMO, slabbing has added speculation to the pioint of making this hobby virtually unapproachable to the new guy or for that matter, anyone who has decided to re strt collecting after a hiatus of sorts.
Grading has been descibed to me on this forum and else where as an art form. Well, the coin is the art. I could care less about one sense of aesthetics when it comes to what I like to collect. What I like to collect is driven by my own sense of aesthetics. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For example, I know folks ho think the SBA dollar is super duper. IMO, its a hag of a coin. So what?
Grading is not static, its not a science. However, I have followed with great interest how grading has also become the line of certifying the authenticity of coins. Thats to me is wrong wrong wrong. If the coin is real or not should never come into the view of some artist wannabe with all the clout of a screen door on a submarine. Why not have appraisers or insurance folks who have experts in the field do this? Just an idea and yes, insurace folks are at times wanting as far as knowledge in coins etc etc
Personally, I have seen clean coins that glow in the dark become the fad, and I have also seen grungy, crusty maggot infested mucous covered authentic coins become a rage as well. There is an exact parallel in the area of furniture antiques.
But, consider this proposition, I buy a coin at the mint. It cost 35 bucks. I get it slabbed. Itrs a MS-7babillion and now I can sell it for hundreds of dollars. I buy another coin, its 35 bucks. I keep it in safe deposit box. 10 years later, the Red Book says, wow, its a 50 dollar coin. I like the coin. Its neat. It appealed to me. Given the above, ever think that inflation of a coins price will one day have the pendulum swing back. God, I hope so.
Comments
<< <i>Slabs have done nothing good for the Hobby! They have created crooks(SGS), thousands of people who can't grade and rely on what the slab tells them. Mear SHEEP!
I guess I disagree completely with your first sentence, and then it all goes downhill from there.
Slabs have done nothing good for the hobby? You would be hard-pressed to find many serious collectors who believe this. Even those in the minority who feel slabs have done more harm than good can find some good.
As for creating crooks, crooks have always found a way to be crooks in the coin biz. Always have, always will. The reputable TPGs have levelled the playing field for the novice.
No offense, but you should probably fix the "Numastics" typo in your thread title, too.
I agree 100% about the novice being able to buy a slab coin and feel protected. But then the novice gets complacent and does not want to learn to grade and buys numbers on slabs. What have they learned? Nothing! Crooks, have been and always will be there. The solution is education! With Education you can avoid many downfalls in life. I take no offense to your last comment.
<< <i>
<< <i>Okay, I do agree that as slabbing is a form of an insurance policy, this enabled sight-unseen buying and selling of coins, and with this safety net, this has contributed to coins fetching the monies they are bringing today. Due to slabbing and the internet, dealers can't cheat collectors as consistently as they did in the pre-slabbing era. >>
True. This is probably my most-despised by-product of slabbing: it got enough people deeply into "the game" that many coins that I once thought would be obtainable once I had a decent job and decent income are now out of reach, probably permanently.
A lot of people with little coin-savvy but deep pockets now tread fearlessly, throwing lots of money around. >>
You and me both! But thats besides the fact. People can collect how they like and what they want as long as they are prepared to lose the money the invested.
<< <i>The changes that TPG's have brought to numismatics are many and complex. Many of the changes are wonderful and beneficial for the average collector. Many of the changes are not so good. If anybody paints the situation as "all terrible" or "all wonderful" then they are being overly simplistic and dogmatic. >>
The only complex thing I see now more than ever is more designations being added to slabs that did not exist before. People then go pay huge premiums for the designation on the slab. Such as FB Dimes. Why should we let the TPG's tell us how much our coins are worth? I never once said it was 100% one way or the other. But now people think they can get rich quick buying slabs and selling them to dealers, only to find out they have been taken. VTCoins made such a post the other day. Arm yourself with a book not a slab. Knowledge will always win out.
<< <i>Buy raw, sell slabbed. Especially if an "online sale". Nearly impossible to realize full monetary potential otherwise, even with the best pics. >>
The sad part is this is true in todays online world. Slabs own the market pretty much when selling any coin of value.
now, while that was a good rant as rants go, climb off the sour apple cart and get your priorities in line. my hunch is that if you do you'll enjoy the hobby a little more. also, you might consider a brief hiatus from collecting, maybe take a hunting trip out west and go looking for a MEAR SHEEP that you can hang in the trophy room!!
<< <i>what's a Mear SHEEP, something like a Mounting Goat??
The TPG's would be your sheperd and you would be the sheep buying numbers on the slabs. Arm yourself with books, and you become the sheperd controlling the sheep(your coins)
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>The sad part is this is true in todays online world. Slabs own the market pretty much when selling any coin of value. >>
This is largely true also.
You can see it whenever someone wants to sell a nice/valuable coin, and the inevitable question is, "why isn't it slabbed?" Some people just enjoy their coins raw.
I'm not saying slabbing is the worst thing ever, or even that it's a net *detriment* to numismatics -- but there are quite a few downsides to them as well.
<< <i>anyone not at least considering these 10 suggestions in some form is bound for trouble. paying particular attention to numbers 4 and 5, looking at holdered coins and buying only PCGS and NGC examples until we can each grade with a modicum of profeciency will provide a safety net of sorts. and remember what the old Bard said-----"Nothing is good or bad except my thinking makes it so." this includes slabbed coins and all that goes along with them. personally, i enjoy the appearance of a slabbed coin, the uniformity and protection provided along with the authentication and opinion on the insert. i have an 18 coin submission that'll go out tomorrow, mostly stuff for my personal collections and a few items to sell to offset the fees.
now, while that was a good rant as rants go, climb off the sour apple cart and get your priorities in line. my hunch is that if you do you'll enjoy the hobby a little more. also, you might consider a brief hiatus from collecting, maybe take a hunting trip out west and go looking for a MEAR SHEEP that you can hang in the trophy room!!
If your a fan of the appearance of a slab more power to you. I like the raw look of coins. Your 10 rules are good for beginners, but then the beginner just uses that "safety net as a crutch more than a net and never does learn to grade. On a side note I have been enjoying the hobby quite well. I find the hunt for coins, slabbed or non slabbed alot of the fun. I find that getting a good deal beause of your knowledge makes the coin that much better than just buying a number on a slab or a variety. As for the mear sheep, some exist on this board, so I will not need to look far.
<< <i>
Is that Howard Dean? That guy looks like he is going to explode. LOL
<< <i>
<< <i>The sad part is this is true in todays online world. Slabs own the market pretty much when selling any coin of value. >>
This is largely true also.
You can see it whenever someone wants to sell a nice/valuable coin, and the inevitable question is, "why isn't it slabbed?" Some people just enjoy their coins raw.
I'm not saying slabbing is the worst thing ever, or even that it's a net *detriment* to numismatics -- but there are quite a few downsides to them as well. >>
I agree 100% and thus I search out raw coins that I can grade. This makes for some pretty sweet buys for me.
good luck, send a PM if i can ever assist yo.
<< <i>Ok Genius.......go to eBay or a dealer and buy 10 slabbed key date coins from PCGS, ANACS and NGC....Then go to ebay or a dealer and buy 10 raw key date coins.......anyone want to wager what will happen??? >>
The chances are no greated you will get ripped off if you have the knowledge to know what you are looking at. A fake 1909 S VDB is the same if it is raw or it slipped into a slab. Many dealers have taken the same stance as alot of collectors. Just because a coin is slabbed it should be worth more and many times it is in todays market. Truly sad to think this has become the normal.
<< <i>sadly, you seem mired in an attitudinal rut, Bruce. i for one hopre the light at the tunnel's end appears sin short order for you. time is just too brief to wrestle with.
good luck, send a PM if i can ever assist yo. >>
I will say I do at times buy slabs, and while I think they are horrid that will not stop me from buying the coin I want should it be in one.
If that's all you see, then you are not thinking about this issue in a very sophisticated way. Many folks have already done a great job in outlining the many benefits and problems associated with slabbing- many issues in life are not black and white....
<< <i>With a PCGS-slabbed coin, I can buy a PR69DCAM and know that I'm getting a pristine, authentic proof. >>
For some reason that line is cracking me up. Oh, I know why. It's because you can get the same thing buying a proof set from a dealer or the mint.
BTW, there are plenty of dogs in PR69DCAM holders.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>With a PCGS-slabbed coin, I can buy a PR69DCAM and know that I'm getting a pristine, authentic proof. >>
For some reason that line is cracking me up. Oh, I know why. It's because you can get the same thing buying a proof set from a dealer or the mint.
BTW, there are plenty of dogs in PR69DCAM holders.
Russ, NCNE >>
I agree that they are dogs at any grade level.
<< <i>The only complex thing I see now more than ever is more designations being added to slabs that did not exist before.
If that's all you see, then you are not thinking about this issue in a very sophisticated way. Many folks have already done a great job in outlining the many benefits and problems associated with slabbing- many issues in life are not black and white.... >>
Ok so there there are a few more than one, but that one sticks out in my mind. You are correct many issues in life are not black and white. Coins being one of them. Knowledge is the key to success.
Try listening instead of battling.
You cannot listen if you are pre-occupied with defending yourself against any and all comers.
<< <i>Bruce. You DO NOT have to quote every post and or respond to every poster.
Try listening instead of battling.
You cannot listen if you are pre-occupied with defending yourself against any and all comers.
Thats a good point! This thread might be out of the norm for alot of collectors, but it does speak what a great many of them have wanted to say. I just stepped up and said many of those things.
<< <i>This thread might be out of the norm for alot of collectors, but it does speak what a great many of them have wanted to say. I just stepped up and said many of those things. >>
Congratulations. Now please stop typing.
<< <i>
<< <i>This thread might be out of the norm for alot of collectors, but it does speak what a great many of them have wanted to say. I just stepped up and said many of those things. >>
Congratulations. Now please stop typing. >>
Ok I think thats a fair assement. Not much more can be said to this subject. I will let it go. On a side note the 1939 Lincoln you have is very cool. Thats one coin if I had the money for right now I would be buying. Hopefully the new owner will enjoy the coin.
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
-----
Proud Owner of
2 –DAMMIT BOY!!! ® Awards
I give this thread a
One of the points brought up, is the BIG price jump for a point or 2 in MS. Or why is a $5 coin raw a $2500 coin in a slab. Is the opinion of a TPG really worth that much?. (assuming PCGS)
And someone said they buy or slab coins for protection only period.
Would'nt an airtight provide just as much protection, and be cheeper?
And last
Alot has been said of consistancy brought by the TPGs, But alot of the posts I read here complain about a LACK of consistancy from the TPGs. Not only between services, but also from one service.(So I have to assume it was 100 % worse before TPGs)
This tends to make things confussing for us novicese. I still had to vote FOR TPGs in the poll.
PZ
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
<< <i>Ok Genius.......go to eBay or a dealer and buy 10 slabbed key date coins from PCGS, ANACS and NGC....Then go to ebay or a dealer and buy 10 raw key date coins.......anyone want to wager what will happen??? >>
I guess one could try the same thing selling. Good luck getting TOP DOLLAR for all of your raw coins.
<< <i>Thats a good point! This thread might be out of the norm for alot of collectors, but it does speak what a great many of them have wanted to say. I just stepped up and said many of those things. >>
Do you really believe that statement is true; that most folks here think that slabs are the worst thing to happen to numismatics? Or that other collectors who don't come here feel the same way?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
While its no substitute for an in person visual inspection, a quality TPG carries some weight in my mind. Yes, there are coins in slabs where I feel they have missed the boat, but they maintain a better accuracy rate than I do from a digital image. Also, there are sliders that can get past me, I am not the expert. Three people looking at the coin reduces my risk.
<< <i>The bottom line is collectors demand slabbed coins. If they didn't, dealers wouldn't go to the trouble and expense of having their coins slabbed. >>
Nor would the collectors.
<< <i>I remember when third party grading started. Many dealer hated it with a passion. They could no longer buy at one grade and then sell at another grade. The bottom line is collectors demand slabbed coins. If they didn't, dealers wouldn't go to the trouble and expense of having their coins slabbed. >>
If slabs were so collector oriented at the start, why didn't collectors start the slab companies rather than investment-oriented dealers?
Ed. S.
(EJS)
can't miss out on this one...
Here is the problem I have with slabs, especially premium coins in slabs. There will come a time when the ultimate results of the crack out game will be nothing but overgraded, or borderline overgraded coins in slabs. Honestly, the lure of the 1 point gain and the sometimes 10x change in price that goes with it will cause folks to submit and re-submit until the desired grade is achieved. Now, a coin may grade MS66 19 times of 20, and MS67 the 20th. Is that coin an MS67? Well, no, I'd argue it has recieved a 95% vote that it is an MS66, but it is now holdered MS67, driving MS67 money. So the buyer gets a tired MS66 coin that worked its way through the system for the lucky bump. Eventually, all rarities are bound to get more and more this way, sadly, cause that's the way we like our coins... holdered and in the highest grade possible.
I hate it. I live with it, and frankly try to buy holdered coins when possible, due to fear of bad photography, etc on raw coins... but I hate it.
Buy the coin not the holder? Great words. But just words. The holder is everything. Prices are driven by the holder, not the coin, and that is a fact.
Ultimately a huge negative at the upper end of the hobby. Frankly, even coin dealers I talk to have started relying on the holder. I had a guy at a trade show tell me to have a coin holdered and he might consider buying it, but it was too tough to grade and value without the holder.
Kind of sad, really.
Slabs give many buyers (as well as sellers) a false sense of security, and in some cases, value. Slabs also make buyers and sellers lazy. The aforementioned can lead to problems and dangers which are just as great as those which existed before slabs.
Since when is it about NUMISMATICS ???
Best thing ever to happen to the hobby: TPG's.
Worst thing ever to happen to the hobby: TPG's.
Most important thing ever to happen to the hobby: TPG's.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>Hey I thought this thread was about NUMASTICS !!!
Since when is it about NUMISMATICS ???
Best thing ever to happen to the hobby: TPG's.
Worst thing ever to happen to the hobby: TPG's.
Most important thing ever to happen to the hobby: TPG's.
Best,
Sunnywood >>
Well put Sunnywood. I will add this: TPGs mean different things to different people. If you were to purchase a $1000+ coin, I would imagine that a TPG certified coin would help you to sleep at night. To me conditional rarity is not worth a marginal premium (i.e. a $1000 for a point). That is only my opinion and I could very well be wrong.
I think there are other things that are far worse in this hobby--try coin doctors or counterfeiters.
I personally like it because I think it eradicates many more problems for collectors than it creates. But to each his own.
It's just a very interesting phenomena to me. Coins, sportscards, comic books, paper money... Wonder what's next?
You can add this one to the, "I hate slabs" sector!
Here's another reason for the irregularities in the certificating of coins, whomever you want to refer to, it's a great way to ward off the investors and helps make coins available for your collections. And yes, there's more to this one but figure it out for yourselves!
If THEY, again, whomever you want to refer to, don't know or could care less about how to grade coins but buy the opinion on the slab for investment purposes then they're basically scr....wing themselves!
And one more!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
"There are thousands of "sheep" buying slabs and not the coins!"
I wholeheartedly concur with these observations. Slabs, at least from the legitimate companies ARE a big plus for eliminating counterfeit and altered coins tho.
At least now, with top tier slabs, you have a bit of a "safety net." Would you buy a $5K or $10K item without any guarantee whatsoever? Welcome to the world or raw coins. Come on down! Buy an expensive raw coin which has been artificially toned, puttied or cleaned. Have fun trying to get your money back.
In the bad old days, any coin you bought would not be bought by a dealer, except at a lower grade (and price). Of course, after he bought the coin from you, it magically returned to the grade at which it was sold to you in the first place.
Whenever I wanted to buy an Unc. coin, I had to look through many sliders, whizzed and cleaned coins before -- and if -- I found something that was acceptable. It's a lot like finding an acceptable MS 65 Barber Half, in an odd sort of way. At least now, I have a lot less s**t to look at before finding an acceptable coin.
I never bought a 16 D dime because there were more fakes out there than real ones, and if I bought a fake, I had no recourse, anywhere.
Coin doctors are out there because people are willing to spend big bucks on coins. They love the fact that so many people out there are so sure of their grading skills. While I think I can grade the series of coins I collect, sometimes one will get by me. Another insurance policy I have is someone I know who knows more than I do who can spot this stuff.
So senhor, keep buying raw coins. But when - not if - you get an unpleasant surprise when you want to sell them, you will have yourself to blame. Buying raw coins is like riding motorcycles. It's just a matter of time before you get in a wreck.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>I don't have time to go through all of this. I started to collect in the 1960s. Except for two or three dealers I met here in Los Angeles and a few auctions, you were fresh meat being fed to piranhas.
At least now, with top tier slabs, you have a bit of a "safety net." Would you buy a $5K or $10K item without any guarantee whatsoever? Welcome to the world or raw coins. Come on down! Buy an expensive raw coin which has been artificially toned, puttied or cleaned. Have fun trying to get your money back.
In the bad old days, any coin you bought would not be bought by a dealer, except at a lower grade (and price). Of course, after he bought the coin from you, it magically returned to the grade at which it was sold to you in the first place.
Whenever I wanted to buy an Unc. coin, I had to look through many sliders, whizzed and cleaned coins before -- and if -- I found something that was acceptable. It's a lot like finding an acceptable MS 65 Barber Half, in an odd sort of way. At least now, I have a lot less s**t to look at before finding an acceptable coin.
I never bought a 16 D dime because there were more fakes out there than real ones, and if I bought a fake, I had no recourse, anywhere.
Coin doctors are out there because people are willing to spend big bucks on coins. They love the fact that so many people out there are so sure of their grading skills. While I think I can grade the series of coins I collect, sometimes one will get by me. Another insurance policy I have is someone I know who knows more than I do who can spot this stuff.
So senhor, keep buying raw coins. But when - not if - you get an unpleasant surprise when you want to sell them, you will have yourself to blame. Buying raw coins is like riding motorcycles. It's just a matter of time before you get in a wreck. >>
Some of us expect to be collecting longer than the slabbing companies are around.
And turning my sarcasm on for a second, I never realized that slabs emitted magical S-rays which turn the dishonest coin dealers into honest ones, whether buying or selling. I guess those with slabbed coins don't have to worry about overpaying, or underselling. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Now excuse me, I must check my kool aid level.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
Getting burned over raw coins (and I was also many years ago) kept me OUT of the hobby for a long time. I am now back in and if I want to buy a coin for my type set that is out of my expertise (indian gold for example) and I want to make sure it is not a fake, I buy a slabbed coin.
It comes down to this, the more information an individual has regarding an item, the better off he is. Let's also remember that not all slabs are created equally. For myself, I regard certain slabs as problem raw coins, especially if they are four figure and up coins.
At worst a slab from PCGS gives an intelligent opinion regarding the coin. EVERYONE is free to agree or disagree with that opinion and if you like your coins raw you are free to liberate the coin and enjoy it that way.
One final thought (probably expressed elseswhere but I did not read the entire thread). This is the wrong place to bash slabbing in terms of it being the worst thing to happen to numismatics. Remember who is PAYING for your ability to express and opinion and the reason most folks post here. PCGS is the market leader and using their forum to tell them to get out of business makes no sense, yet they continue to allow you to bash them. Speaks WELL of PCGS in my mind. They have a FAR more open mind than you do.
<< <i>SLABS ARE THE WORST THING IN NUMASTICS TO COME OUT!!
Slabs are not a substitute for knowledge, but it sure is nice to have a coin that is guaranteed to be authentic and to have an unbiased opinion of a ballpark grade. I would never have been comfortable buying the types of coins that I buy, especially when I was getting started, without them. The major TPGs and their services are not a panacea for the ills of the coin hobby. If you do not like certified coins, by all means, do not buy them, but please do not tell me how to collect coins. >>
The guaranteed authentic is big to me. I have a 32-S Washington I showed to a couple of dealers. Both thought it was fake. It had been cleaned so I sent it to ANACS. They slabbed it as cleaned so now I can sell it without having to worry about it and the buyer knows it's guaranteed as authentic as well. I think we could at least all agree that is a "good thing."
Grading has been descibed to me on this forum and else where as an art form. Well, the coin is the art. I could care less about one sense of aesthetics when it comes to what I like to collect. What I like to collect is driven by my own sense of aesthetics. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For example, I know folks ho think the SBA dollar is super duper. IMO, its a hag of a coin. So what?
Grading is not static, its not a science. However, I have followed with great interest how grading has also become the line of certifying the authenticity of coins. Thats to me is wrong wrong wrong. If the coin is real or not should never come into the view of some artist wannabe with all the clout of a screen door on a submarine. Why not have appraisers or insurance folks who have experts in the field do this? Just an idea and yes, insurace folks are at times wanting as far as knowledge in coins etc etc
Personally, I have seen clean coins that glow in the dark become the fad, and I have also seen grungy, crusty maggot infested mucous covered authentic coins become a rage as well. There is an exact parallel in the area of furniture antiques.
But, consider this proposition, I buy a coin at the mint. It cost 35 bucks. I get it slabbed. Itrs a MS-7babillion and now I can sell it for hundreds of dollars. I buy another coin, its 35 bucks. I keep it in safe deposit box. 10 years later, the Red Book says, wow, its a 50 dollar coin. I like the coin. Its neat. It appealed to me. Given the above, ever think that inflation of a coins price will one day have the pendulum swing back. God, I hope so.