<< <i>My name is Joe and I buy PCGS slabs because of the number on them.
I like collecting coins. It is one of my hobbies. Frankly, I am financially secure enough that I will probably never have to sell any of my coins because I need the money.
Now, with all due respect, I think I can grade pretty well but when it comes to the differences in MS grades I struggle. I just don't have the eye and/or patience to grade MS coins as well as I would like. In addition, I would not attempt to buy a raw MS coin because I also know that I have difficulty determining when the coin is actually AU. So what am I to do?
I rely on PCGS slabs. End of story. You may not like it, but that doesn't matter. I am willing to pay the price for a coin that has been authenticated and given a grade (right or wrong) and that is fine by me. That doesn't mean that I accept just any POS in a slab, but if I like what is in the slab, and not necessarily because I agree with the number on the slab, I buy it. It is as simple as that. I know that by buying a PCGS slab that I have some security as to authenticity and as to grade (again, whether you agree with the number or not).
Joe. >>
I can agree with the way you collect and if you are not up to par on your grading as you say then slabs do offer you some comfort. It seems like you are also buying the coin moreso than the slab.
<< <i>Very good thread. I agree with much of what you said except I think before TPG buyers who didn't know alot about coins, and their were many before the TPGs, REALLY got taken to the cleaners by unscrupulous deaters. The bought as MS65 and they or their heirs sold those same coins as AU50s.
At least now when a person goes to sell there is FAR less argument about what a coin's grade is.
So, while their have been quite a few negatives associated with the advent of TPGs, and you covered them quite well, the benefit, in my honest opinion, outweighs the negatives. >>
While this is true about when it comes time to sell. But the fact of the matter is slabbed or not the person who does not know much about coins can still be taken by the dealer who is a crook. Dealers such as these should not be allowed to opperate but they do. On another note if you don't know what your buying then why buy it? You should not buy ANYTHING, without knowledge of it first.
<< <i>I am not saying the MS coins are bad. If you know how to properly grade them then you can buy them raw, slabbed, or even in an SGS slab. Buy the coin not the Slab! >>
MS coins were the first coins to get slabbed- seems like ANACS MS Morgan dollars were the only slabs I seen for the first few months when slabs came to be. Also I would say slabs have had by the far the biggest impact on MS coins....
<< <i>This may not be new news to any of us posters here, but think of the thousands of collectors who do not post here. >>
But you posted it here, for this audience.
<< <i>If I can buy a slabbed coin for the same price as a raw coin of the same grade(my opinion on both) then we will call it a good day and I can crack it out for my album. >>
So you believe that certification, which is not free, and the protection it provides, which has a very real value, should come at no cost at all?
<< <i>Counterfiets seem to be down by in large but the others you mention are still in full swing. >>
Were you active in the 60s and 70s? I will agree that dipped and lightly cleaned coins can be found in slabs with some regularity, what you will not find are the whizzed and heavily cleaned coins which used to be sold en masse to the unsuspecting.
<< <i>On a side note I check out your site and you have some very very nice coins for sale. >>
if the coin price doesn't come up to the the holders grade then i don't buy it.
if it doesn't come up to the holders grade...and...its price is lower because the seller also feels that it would be over priced...and...
has priced it in a range that still makes it desireable to mee ...then i will still buy it.
should the holder be one of the "big 3" it'll stay in its protective housing til such time i want to sell it.
unless...
i feel its over graded,under graded...or in my case ...lists the wrong color. (lincoln cents)
if its not in one of the "big 3" it gets cracked out and later on submitted to one of the "big 3"....not for prestige,registry sets, ego, or the the
lack of abiliity to grade...it gets a holder for protection ...period.
slabs make it easier to show a newbie, or a novice (and sometimes even experts ) your coin, without the fear of a thumbprint or
clumsy handling.
really ....this isn't hard to understand.
if you don't want to play...just enjoy your raw coins.
don't make a religous band wagon out of it ....and try to convert people to your religion.
people have different ideas about what they want to do.
i'm neither a "un-informed grader, "sheep" as you say...or a bad person for the hobby...so don't say i'm wrong because i like slabs.
coin collecting hobby IS NOT 3rd REICH political hierarchy...its personal...to be collected as the collector see's fit ...no rules.
jeez! this isn't hard!
now play nice ...or i'll have all your coins forcibly slabbed.
editud for schpelling >>
And thats the beauty of this hobby! One can collect what he or she likes. Slabbed or not slabbed. As long as you know how to grade then you can purchase any coin you choose even in an SGS slab. Your Big 3 are PCGS, NGC, and ANACS? If thats the case watch those new ANACS slabs. This is not my attempt to get more people to collect raw coins. This is just my opinions.
<< <i>This may not be new news to any of us posters here, but think of the thousands of collectors who do not post here. >>
But you posted it here, for this audience.
<< <i>If I can buy a slabbed coin for the same price as a raw coin of the same grade(my opinion on both) then we will call it a good day and I can crack it out for my album. >>
So you believe that certification, which is not free, and the protection it provides, which has a very real value, should come at no cost at all?
<< <i>Counterfiets seem to be down by in large but the others you mention are still in full swing./q]
Were you active in the 60s and 70s? I will agree that dipped and lightly cleaned coins can be found in slabs with some regularity, what you will not find are the whizzed and heavily cleaned coins which used to be sold en masse to the unsuspecting.
>>
First off I know this Audience is here but just maybe there are some new people to the coin industry here. Slabbing should not be free, even if they Body Bag your coin. They proivide a service which many people like. As a reference I am not only talking about slabs when I talk about cleaned coins and such, just take a look at ebay and the overgraded, cleaned coins for sale. Raw and slabbed. I was not active in the 60's and 70's but wish I had been.
<< <i>I am not saying the MS coins are bad. If you know how to properly grade them then you can buy them raw, slabbed, or even in an SGS slab. Buy the coin not the Slab! >>
MS coins were the first coins to get slabbed- seems like ANACS MS Morgan dollars were the only slabs I seen for the first few months when slabs came to be. Also I would say slabs have had by the far the biggest impact on MS coins.... >>
You are correct on the impact they have had on MS coins.
<< <i>evidently you weren't around before slabs came along or you would know the reason for them. They may not be perfect but they are better than what we had. >>
So your telling me you like the era now over say the 60's? >>
<< <i>evidently you weren't around before slabs came along or you would know the reason for them. They may not be perfect but they are better than what we had. >>
So your telling me you like the era now over say the 60's? >>
Amen, brother >>
More power to you then. I like the idea of going to the bank and getting some Morgans at face. For that matter finding many coins that just can't be found today without putting out loads of money.
<< <i>Bruce, each of the problems you presented (cleaning... unsuspecting buyers/ bad sellers...overgraded coins... ) were rampant before slabs. What certification does is slow down the sale of counterfeit and severely altered coins (such as added mintmarks and fake gold coins). The good far outweigh any bad you are able to come up with. >>
This a very valid point, but when does the buyer become responsable for his or her own purchases? Knowledge is the key to collecting. >>
That valid question has nothing to do with certification- the thrust of your thread. The buyer/collector is responsible all the way through his hobby experience, whether he buys slabbed coins or not.
<< <i>What certification does is slow down the sale of counterfeit and severely altered coins (such as added mintmarks and fake gold coins). >>
Certification yes (Everyone say "THANK YOU ANACS! They spent 14 years removing the counterfeits and altered coins before the slabbers came along.), but not grading which is where most of the abuses come from.
Yes a whole new world of suckers who can be sold the grading errors and coins from off-market slabbers for high amounts because they don't know that the services do screw up or that not all services are equal. Not to mention that many of them use the slab grading as a crutch and never bother to learn to grade. Why should they when they can just depend on the plastic numbers.
Actually with the crackout game, the slabbing errors, the sky high price jumps for one piont differences that no one can really define and which are probably not repeatable, all the non-top tier slabs that get sold to peoplewho don't know any better, it would not surprise me if more money is lost by newbies on slabs now than was ever lost before slabbing. There are MANY people here on the forum who have admitted that when they got started or came backinto coins they got taken big time buying coins in third tier slabs because they didn't know any better. In those cases slabbing didn't protect it was an accomplice.
By the way Brucewar, I think you had a great thread starter and I pretty much agree with all of it. And thanks to Boom for cleaning it up. Of course the answer is education. But most new collectors just coming in are too excited to take the time to learn, and the illusion of the protection that slabs project actually DISCOURAGES them from educating themselves. Education takes time, and it's difficult. I'll just depend on what the slab says and I'll be safe because they are professionals.
<< <i>In spite of what you say more people have gotten and will get screwed buying raw coins than will ever get screwed buying slabbed coins. At least slabbed coins level the playing field a lot more than it used to be. If there is a problem you at least have recourse thru some but not all of the grading companies. There will always be those who never take the time to learn about what they are doing and getting into the hobby to the nth degree isn't necessarily for everyone. For many collectors/investors the slab adds a measure of protection to their purchase that they just can't get from raw coins. Not everyone will be as "into it" as you are. Be glad those folks are in the hobby for without them the market would be much smaller indeed. >>
Yes this is true, many people will get screwed with raw coins. Why? Becuase they are buying coins they should not be. If the person cannot tell a good coin from a bad coin its time for them to hit the books. I would rather the size of the coin market go down by a bit then having people who don't know what they are buying driving up the price of coins based on a slab number. I do agree that slabs have helped the new people in protecting them from dealers trying to rip them off, but even in a slab you should be able to grade for yourself.
Yes a whole new world of suckers who can be sold the grading errors and coins from off-market slabbers for high amounts because they don't know that the services do screw up or that not all services are equal. Not to mention that many of them use the slab grading as a crutch and never bother to learn to grade. Why should they when they can just depend on the plastic numbers.
Actually with the crackout game, the slabbing errors, the sky high price jumps for one piont differences that no one can really define and which are probably not repeatable, all the non-top tier slabs that get sold to peoplewho don't know any better, it would not surprise me if more money is lost by newbies on slabs now than was ever lost before slabbing. There are MANY people here on the forum who have admitted that when they got started or came backinto coins they got taken big time buying coins in third tier slabs because they didn't know any better. In those cases slabbing didn't protect it was an accomplice.
By the way Brucewar, I think you had a great thread starter and I pretty much agree with all of it. And thanks to Boom for cleaning it up. Of course the answer is education. But most new collectors just coming in are too excited to take the time to learn, and the illusion of the protection that slabs project actually DISCOURAGES them from educating themselves. Education takes time, and it's difficult. I'll just depend on what the slab says and I'll be safe because they are professionals. >>
Thats my whole beef with alot of people collecting coins! They have money and throw it at numbers on slabs. They don't want to take the time to learn to grade like so many of us did. TDN says it best "There is no Santa Claus in Numismatics" You bring a valid point up about the 3rd tier slabs such as SGS, etc. Many people have been burned and many more will. Thanks for the comments.
I like knowing that a slabbed coin is authentic (well, unless it is a "Micro O" ). Beyond that, I could care less what the slab says. They neither excite me nor bother me. They're just not a factor in my life.
I'll probably crack it out of its polymer tomb so I can actually enjoy the coin during my lifetime. But I plan to leave my wife instructions to re-slab them all after I go that great numastic bourse in the sky. Slabs do give a boost and some protection to the seller also.
<< <i>I like knowing that a slabbed coin is authentic (well, unless it is a "Micro O" ). Beyond that, I could care less what the slab says. They neither excite me nor bother me. They're just not a factor in my life.
I'll probably crack it out of its polymer tomb so I can actually enjoy the coin during my lifetime. But I plan to leave my wife instructions to re-slab them all after I go that great numastic bourse in the sky. Slabs do give a boost and some protection to the seller also. >>
Slabs will tell you if a coin is authentic or not. That is very true, but do you really have that hard of a time picking out the fake coins? The "Micro O" was a whole big scandle if you ask me. You bring up the valid point of selling slabbed coins vs raw coins. The market now dictates coins in slabs generally bring more than raw coins. I can see why that is. People want a safety net. People need to take some responsabilty and learn to grade and the like. If I see 2 MS 64 coins I like, one being in a slab going for 15% more than the raw coin, you bet I am going to go for the raw coin. I hope the bourse in the sky is great. There are a great many coins I want!
That is very true, but do you really have that hard of a time picking out the fake coins?
It seems so easy when you are looking at very poor fakes. It's the above attitude that will get you into trouble more often than not IMO. The attitude to paraphrase is that I must rely on myself only because I can know-it-all. Bad idea.
I guarantee that I could show you several different 1955 DDO's, 09-S vdb's, gold coins and other coins that you would not score 100% as to authenticity. I know that I can't always tell the fakes from the geniune, so agian, for these type of coins I rely on PCGS.
<< <i>The ONLY people who benefit from a TPG are scamming dealers and investors wanting to buy coins like commodities. TPG's have never kept a dealer who wanted to sell a slider at the next (or the next two) grades up from doing so. It has instead made it much easier. Now all he has to do point to the label of his overgraded drek--yes, even from 1st tier companies--and say there is the grade; take it or leave it. The plastic collectors--who, of course, can't be bothered to actually LEARN something about what they are buying then line up to be bent over. >>
I still believe this. Yes, there were a lot of problems in the hobby prior to certification. Yes, there were unscrupulous dealers out to cheat the unknowing. But, believe it or not, there are just as many of those dealers today as there ever were. In fact, I would be willing to bet there are even more simply because of the increase in the value of their possible return.
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
<< <i>That is very true, but do you really have that hard of a time picking out the fake coins?
It seems so easy when you are looking at very poor fakes. It's the above attitude that will get you into trouble more often than not IMO. The attitude to paraphrase is that I must rely on myself only because I can know-it-all. Bad idea.
I guarantee that I could show you several different 1955 DDO's, 09-S vdb's, gold coins and other coins that you would not score 100% as to authenticity. I know that I can't always tell the fakes from the geniune, so agian, for these type of coins I rely on PCGS.
Joe. >>
You make valid points. If that is the case and I cannot tell weather a coin is Authentic or not, then at that point in time I pass. Like you said I would prolly not get 100% on the fake coins, but I try not buy coins I cannot Authenticate and am able to grade myself. I agree that one should not solely rely on ones own knowledge soly, but it should be the first and last line of defense when buying coins. There are some very well made fakes out there, which sometimes even fool "the pros" or graders as we want to call them. Nobody can ever know it all, and I will admit I am far from it. I learn something new in coins everyday! Thanks for the opinions.
<< <i>The ONLY people who benefit from a TPG are scamming dealers and investors wanting to buy coins like commodities. TPG's have never kept a dealer who wanted to sell a slider at the next (or the next two) grades up from doing so. It has instead made it much easier. Now all he has to do point to the label of his overgraded drek--yes, even from 1st tier companies--and say there is the grade; take it or leave it. The plastic collectors--who, of course, can't be bothered to actually LEARN something about what they are buying then line up to be bent over. >>
I still believe this. Yes, there were a lot of problems in the hobby prior to certification. Yes, there were unscrupulous dealers out to cheat the unknowing. But, believe it or not, there are just as many of those dealers today as there ever were. In fact, I would be willing to bet there are even more simply because of the increase in the value of their possible return. >>
The way you put "bent over" is funny but true. There are also as many bad dealers if not more just based on the fact that the industry is larger as a whole.
<< <i>Bruce, each of the problems you presented (cleaning... unsuspecting buyers/ bad sellers...overgraded coins... ) were rampant before slabs. What certification does is slow down the sale of counterfeit and severely altered coins (such as added mintmarks and fake gold coins). The good far outweigh any bad you are able to come up with. >>
This a very valid point, but when does the buyer become responsable for his or her own purchases? Knowledge is the key to collecting. >>
That valid question has nothing to do with certification- the thrust of your thread. The buyer/collector is responsible all the way through his hobby experience, whether he buys slabbed coins or not. >>
I agree 100% but slabs have made that soo much less pressure on the buyer to learn. Now a person can buy a slabbed coin and learn about it later. Assumin the coin is in a TPG's holder.
I agree 100% but slabs have made that soo much less pressure on the buyer to learn. Now a person can buy a slabbed coin and learn about it later. Assumin the coin is in a TPG's holder.
Agreed, and I see nothing wrong with that especially if one is buying PCGS.
Now someone learning will not have to find out when it comes time to sell that his "MS-65" morgan is really a cleaned AU.
<< <i>Now a person can buy a slabbed coin and learn about it later. >>
This is one of the major downsides to slabbing, IMO. A lot of people don't really feel a need to understand what they are buying or learn how to evaluate coins on their own.
<< <i>Now a person can buy a slabbed coin and learn about it later. >>
This is one of the major downsides to slabbing, IMO. A lot of people don't really feel a need to understand what they are buying or learn how to evaluate coins on their own. >>
You hit the nail on the head and that is a very very bad habit.
<< <i>I agree 100% but slabs have made that soo much less pressure on the buyer to learn. Now a person can buy a slabbed coin and learn about it later. Assumin the coin is in a TPG's holder.
Agreed, and I see nothing wrong with that especially if one is buying PCGS.
Now someone learning will not have to find out when it comes time to sell that his "MS-65" morgan is really a cleaned AU.
Joe. >>
So you promote the fact that people should not learn about what they are buying? Just buy and sell the numbers?
I only read the first page of posts and my comments are that people should stop taking the opportunity to make fun of those they think don't write as well as they do. About the subject matter: I hear your basic points, Brucewar, and while there is validity in there in my view I think slabs are generally good because they can elimite that lack of authenticity or attribution concerns for many and also protect them very well. Like many tools, you have to be careful though.
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So you promote the fact that people should not learn about what they are buying? Just buy and sell the numbers?
I don't think promote is the right word. Will I or do I have the time to look and study to become "expert", no. Does that mean that I should not buy? I don't think so. Slabs (again, especially PCGS, and no, they don't pay me ) give the average Joe an opportunity to participate without getting seriously hurt IMO. Nothing wrong with that.
If someone wanted to collect coins and was having thoughts of buying coins of some value, I would insist that he buy PCGS slabbed coins only. He can then participate and learn at his leisure (usually what a hobby is about IMO) without being ripped. That doesn't mean that you never actually look at the coin and never compare one PCGS MS-65 to another PCGS MS-65 to choose the best one, it just means that I don't have to become "expert" before buying or participating IMO.
Slabs definitely have their place, especially when it comes to authentication, protection, preservation, determining if there's a problem, and displayability of certain coins. For instance, I recently had ICG slab a ancient Greek Diobol because this type of coin was part of a notorious hoard of fakes and the coin is so small that protecting and displaying it became a real problem.
That said, I will agree with you that if people are paying big money just because one company (that slabbed the coin) stated the coin grades XX, it's silly, especially when a single grade point means big dollars. The Registry phenomenon really changed everything. Especially with the craze about getting a piece of plastic wrapped around a coin that's commonly found in today's change but happens to not have many, if any, miniscule marks on it. What makes it even worse is when people feel compelled to slab, what already is minted as essentially perfect, bullion "coins". It's nuts. But, hey...the slabbing companies make tons of dough and stay in business so they can keep slabbing rare (not just conditionally rare) coins and classic coins that are more liquid as a result of the authentication.
This whole slabbing craze reminds me of a very recent encounter I had with a collector selling a coin on eBay (without a picture) worth about $3500. I told him that I want to see the coin prior to making a decision on purchasing it. He said "Hey it's in an XYZ (major slabbing company) holder. Isn't that enough? People buy these sight unseen all the time!" He was a fool, unfortunately he's always somewhat right. There are other fools out there who'll buy it simply because of the number on the holder and the name of the grading company regardless of what the coin looks like.
[Edited to add...] Oh yeah....read my signature line and prove what I'm inferring is wrong.
Slabbed coins provide the security needed to buy "sight unseen". I can buy a coin on ebay in a PCGS slab and more or less know what I am getting. I have limited access to coin shops and shows so getting the education necessary to grade different mint states is not possible. The limited access also means I can't pursue my collecting desires in person. To overcome the limitations, I am forced into buying sight-unseen. With a PCGS-slabbed coin, I can buy a PR69DCAM and know that I'm getting a pristine, authentic proof. I cannot have that certainty buying raw either in-hand or sight-unseen.
I buy a new car every few years. There's no way I could ever become an expert in all the nuances of new engineering changes. I depend on Consumer Reports to steer me in the right direction. That's what a reputable TPG does for me. It allows me to collect coins I enjoy with easy liquidity on ebay. I don't have the time or the NEED to become an expert grader. I dare say that many of the people who claim grading expertise are not as expert as they think. With reputable TPGs, I get consistency in grading along with authenticity certification. That makes my collecting experience less risky and more enjoyable.
I have never bought a slabbed coin. I am confident in my grading abilities to buy raw. I do have several slabbed coins, though, and I really like them in the slabs. It's just good I don't want to bust them out for my typeset!
Slabs are actually the BEST thing to happen to the hobby. They have created a level playing field, period. Of course the buyer still needs to be savvy as to what they're buying, but slabs have taken the incredible inconsistencies away from the equation.
Personally I don't buy slabs but I do understand the reasoning behind them and the appeal of them to people. I like having my coins as excatly that coins. I feel slabbing coins is kind of an insult to the coin and turns it into a commodity not something that was once in the pockets of some merchant 100 years ago. Granted slabs insure value, and protect the coin, but it also removes some of the mystique that surrounds what we collect. I collect old metal, not plastic boxes.
That is very true, but do you really have that hard of a time picking out the fake coins? I got a very good fake Trade Dollar while in Vietnam that fooled most dealers who saw it. Do you really want to go there when considering the purchase of a high grade 16 D dime or 1856 Flyer?
I was collecting coins in the 1960s. With two exceptions, every dealer to whom I ever even tried to sell a coin did his best to screw me. A coin he'd sell as a BU was an Unc. when you wanted to sell it back to him. The only places where I could get decent coins were from these two dealers and a bid board or two. If I had $50 or $100 to spend, I went to auctions. Most coins were cleaned, whizzed, and were problem coins. Most Uncs available were sliders. I think the worst offenders were the 1883 N/C Nickels at the time. You had to go through a lot of garbage to find something decent.
Do you honestly think this was better than today?
Okay, I do agree that as slabbing is a form of an insurance policy, this enabled sight-unseen buying and selling of coins, and with this safety net, this has contributed to coins fetching the monies they are bringing today. Due to slabbing and the internet, dealers can't cheat collectors as consistently as they did in the pre-slabbing era.
However, there are plenty of ignorant people with money in this world, and just as they got ripped by dishonest people in the pre-slabbing era, they are being ripped now. Instead of buying fake / whizzed coins, the higher end of this food-chain is now paying too much money for overgraded or marginal for the grade coins. The lower end of this food-chain is buying the material alluded to by other posters.
Ignorant people are going to get ripped one way or other, so I wouldn't specifically blame numismatics for this. If they didn't buy overgraded or overpriced coins, they'd pi** their money away buying penny stocks, day trading, or buying other 'investments' that they don't understand. If you buy something that you don't understand, and lose money in so doing, it's your fault. We do not live in a benevolent world.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Slabs have done nothing good for the Hobby! They have created crooks(SGS), thousands of people who can't grade and rely on what the slab tells them. Mear SHEEP!
I guess I disagree completely with your first sentence, and then it all goes downhill from there.
Slabs have done nothing good for the hobby? You would be hard-pressed to find many serious collectors who believe this. Even those in the minority who feel slabs have done more harm than good can find some good.
As for creating crooks, crooks have always found a way to be crooks in the coin biz. Always have, always will. The reputable TPGs have levelled the playing field for the novice.
No offense, but you should probably fix the "Numastics" typo in your thread title, too.
<< <i>Okay, I do agree that as slabbing is a form of an insurance policy, this enabled sight-unseen buying and selling of coins, and with this safety net, this has contributed to coins fetching the monies they are bringing today. Due to slabbing and the internet, dealers can't cheat collectors as consistently as they did in the pre-slabbing era. >>
True. This is probably my most-despised by-product of slabbing: it got enough people deeply into "the game" that many coins that I once thought would be obtainable once I had a decent job and decent income are now out of reach, probably permanently.
A lot of people with little coin-savvy but deep pockets now tread fearlessly, throwing lots of money around.
The changes that TPG's have brought to numismatics are many and complex. Many of the changes are wonderful and beneficial for the average collector. Many of the changes are not so good. If anybody paints the situation as "all terrible" or "all wonderful" then they are being overly simplistic and dogmatic.
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
<< <i>Slabs definitely have their place, especially when it comes to authentication, protection, preservation, determining if there's a problem, and displayability of certain coins. For instance, I recently had ICG slab a ancient Greek Diobol because this type of coin was part of a notorious hoard of fakes and the coin is so small that protecting and displaying it became a real problem.
That said, I will agree with you that if people are paying big money just because one company (that slabbed the coin) stated the coin grades XX, it's silly, especially when a single grade point means big dollars. The Registry phenomenon really changed everything. Especially with the craze about getting a piece of plastic wrapped around a coin that's commonly found in today's change but happens to not have many, if any, miniscule marks on it. What makes it even worse is when people feel compelled to slab, what already is minted as essentially perfect, bullion "coins". It's nuts. But, hey...the slabbing companies make tons of dough and stay in business so they can keep slabbing rare (not just conditionally rare) coins and classic coins that are more liquid as a result of the authentication.
This whole slabbing craze reminds me of a very recent encounter I had with a collector selling a coin on eBay (without a picture) worth about $3500. I told him that I want to see the coin prior to making a decision on purchasing it. He said "Hey it's in an XYZ (major slabbing company) holder. Isn't that enough? People buy these sight unseen all the time!" He was a fool, unfortunately he's always somewhat right. There are other fools out there who'll buy it simply because of the number on the holder and the name of the grading company regardless of what the coin looks like.
[Edited to add...] Oh yeah....read my signature line and prove what I'm inferring is wrong.
Bruce >>
Authentication is the one area that alot of people fail miserably on myself included! Sure we can all spot the obvious fakes, but some of the good ones become hard to determine. In the case of ancients, here again is where knowledge comes into play. I don't deal in acients for the simple fact I don't know enough about them. You are 100% correct that some sellers are like that. I hope you passed on the coin. I cannot prove your sig line wrong.
<< <i>I only read the first page of posts and my comments are that people should stop taking the opportunity to make fun of those they think don't write as well as they do. About the subject matter: I hear your basic points, Brucewar, and while there is validity in there in my view I think slabs are generally good because they can elimite that lack of authenticity or attribution concerns for many and also protect them very well. Like many tools, you have to be careful though. >>
The 2 problems you speak of can be fixed with hitting the books. Think of all the rare varieties that existed pre slab time. People seemed to find them. While I have respect for that segment of the market, if one cannot tell the variety for oneself, move on. Handle the coins with ease and you will have no problems at all.
<< <i>So you promote the fact that people should not learn about what they are buying? Just buy and sell the numbers?
I don't think promote is the right word. Will I or do I have the time to look and study to become "expert", no. Does that mean that I should not buy? I don't think so. Slabs (again, especially PCGS, and no, they don't pay me ) give the average Joe an opportunity to participate without getting seriously hurt IMO. Nothing wrong with that.
If someone wanted to collect coins and was having thoughts of buying coins of some value, I would insist that he buy PCGS slabbed coins only. He can then participate and learn at his leisure (usually what a hobby is about IMO) without being ripped. That doesn't mean that you never actually look at the coin and never compare one PCGS MS-65 to another PCGS MS-65 to choose the best one, it just means that I don't have to become "expert" before buying or participating IMO.
Joe. >>
Since when does learning to grade make you an expert? When I think of experts I think of David Q. Bowers, etc. etc.
<< <i>Slabbed coins provide the security needed to buy "sight unseen". I can buy a coin on ebay in a PCGS slab and more or less know what I am getting. I have limited access to coin shops and shows so getting the education necessary to grade different mint states is not possible. The limited access also means I can't pursue my collecting desires in person. To overcome the limitations, I am forced into buying sight-unseen. With a PCGS-slabbed coin, I can buy a PR69DCAM and know that I'm getting a pristine, authentic proof. I cannot have that certainty buying raw either in-hand or sight-unseen.
I buy a new car every few years. There's no way I could ever become an expert in all the nuances of new engineering changes. I depend on Consumer Reports to steer me in the right direction. That's what a reputable TPG does for me. It allows me to collect coins I enjoy with easy liquidity on ebay. I don't have the time or the NEED to become an expert grader. I dare say that many of the people who claim grading expertise are not as expert as they think. With reputable TPGs, I get consistency in grading along with authenticity certification. That makes my collecting experience less risky and more enjoyable. >>
I cannot fault the way you collect. Except for the statment "With a PCGS-slabbed coin, I can buy a PR69DCAM and know that I'm getting a pristine, authentic proof. I cannot have that certainty buying raw either in-hand or sight-unseen." If this is the case your telling me you can't tell the difference between 68, 69, and 70? If you cannot why not take the lesser of the coins since they all look the same right?
<< <i>Slabs are actually the BEST thing to happen to the hobby. They have created a level playing field, period. Of course the buyer still needs to be savvy as to what they're buying, but slabs have taken the incredible inconsistencies away from the equation. >>
A level playing field for who? The unknowing guy who buys a couple of slabs thinking its a good deal only to find out they are 3rd tier slabs? Or could it be the person who buys a few reputable slabs at high levels and when it comes time to sell the dealer says "These are not PCGS, and therefor I will pass you less for them." The field will never be level as much as people would like to think. You are correct and people should learn before they buy, just like you have with toners.
<< <i>That is very true, but do you really have that hard of a time picking out the fake coins? I got a very good fake Trade Dollar while in Vietnam that fooled most dealers who saw it. Do you really want to go there when considering the purchase of a high grade 16 D dime or 1856 Flyer?
I was collecting coins in the 1960s. With two exceptions, every dealer to whom I ever even tried to sell a coin did his best to screw me. A coin he'd sell as a BU was an Unc. when you wanted to sell it back to him. The only places where I could get decent coins were from these two dealers and a bid board or two. If I had $50 or $100 to spend, I went to auctions. Most coins were cleaned, whizzed, and were problem coins. Most Uncs available were sliders. I think the worst offenders were the 1883 N/C Nickels at the time. You had to go through a lot of garbage to find something decent.
Do you honestly think this was better than today?
Okay, I do agree that as slabbing is a form of an insurance policy, this enabled sight-unseen buying and selling of coins, and with this safety net, this has contributed to coins fetching the monies they are bringing today. Due to slabbing and the internet, dealers can't cheat collectors as consistently as they did in the pre-slabbing era.
However, there are plenty of ignorant people with money in this world, and just as they got ripped by dishonest people in the pre-slabbing era, they are being ripped now. Instead of buying fake / whizzed coins, the higher end of this food-chain is now paying too much money for overgraded or marginal for the grade coins. The lower end of this food-chain is buying the material alluded to by other posters.
Ignorant people are going to get ripped one way or other, so I wouldn't specifically blame numismatics for this. If they didn't buy overgraded or overpriced coins, they'd pi** their money away buying penny stocks, day trading, or buying other 'investments' that they don't understand. If you buy something that you don't understand, and lose money in so doing, it's your fault. We do not live in a benevolent world. >>
All your points lead me to this... Have some knowledge of what you are buying before you jump in. I agree 100% Like I have said before if you are buying coins that could be fake you better count any money you decide to spend on them a loss from the get go and you will be just fine.
Comments
<< <i>My name is Joe and I buy PCGS slabs because of the number on them.
I like collecting coins. It is one of my hobbies. Frankly, I am financially secure enough that I will probably never have to sell any of my coins because I need the money.
Now, with all due respect, I think I can grade pretty well but when it comes to the differences in MS grades I struggle. I just don't have the eye and/or patience to grade MS coins as well as I would like. In addition, I would not attempt to buy a raw MS coin because I also know that I have difficulty determining when the coin is actually AU. So what am I to do?
I rely on PCGS slabs. End of story. You may not like it, but that doesn't matter. I am willing to pay the price for a coin that has been authenticated and given a grade (right or wrong) and that is fine by me. That doesn't mean that I accept just any POS in a slab, but if I like what is in the slab, and not necessarily because I agree with the number on the slab, I buy it. It is as simple as that. I know that by buying a PCGS slab that I have some security as to authenticity and as to grade (again, whether you agree with the number or not).
Joe. >>
I can agree with the way you collect and if you are not up to par on your grading as you say then slabs do offer you some comfort. It seems like you are also buying the coin moreso than the slab.
that is entitled to his own opinion. You'll figure out who it is.
Let's see. It's not Joe nor is it John or Pat and lastly NOT Bruce.
Have a nice morning Gentlemen.
Oh ... and it certainly is NOT Adrian.
<< <i>Very good thread. I agree with much of what you said except I think before TPG buyers who didn't know alot about coins, and their were many before the TPGs, REALLY got taken to the cleaners by unscrupulous deaters. The bought as MS65 and they or their heirs sold those same coins as AU50s.
At least now when a person goes to sell there is FAR less argument about what a coin's grade is.
So, while their have been quite a few negatives associated with the advent of TPGs, and you covered them quite well, the benefit, in my honest opinion, outweighs the negatives. >>
While this is true about when it comes time to sell. But the fact of the matter is slabbed or not the person who does not know much about coins can still be taken by the dealer who is a crook. Dealers such as these should not be allowed to opperate but they do. On another note if you don't know what your buying then why buy it? You should not buy ANYTHING, without knowledge of it first.
i never "just" buy the slab.....i buy the coin.
i pay the price of the the "coin"...if i want it.
if the coin price doesn't come up to the the holders grade then i don't buy it.
if it doesn't come up to the holders grade...and...its price is lower because the seller also feels that it would be over priced...and...
has priced it in a range that still makes it desireable to mee ...then i will still buy it.
should the holder be one of the "big 3" it'll stay in its protective housing til such time i want to sell it.
unless...
i feel its over graded,under graded...or in my case ...lists the wrong color. (lincoln cents)
if its not in one of the "big 3" it gets cracked out and later on submitted to one of the "big 3"....not for prestige,registry sets, ego, or the the
lack of abiliity to grade...it gets a holder for protection ...period.
slabs make it easier to show a newbie, or a novice (and sometimes even experts ) your coin, without the fear of a thumbprint or
clumsy handling.
really ....this isn't hard to understand.
if you don't want to play...just enjoy your raw coins.
don't make a religous band wagon out of it ....and try to convert people to your religion.
people have different ideas about what they want to do.
i'm neither a "un-informed grader, "sheep" as you say...or a bad person for the hobby...so don't say i'm wrong because i like slabs.
coin collecting hobby IS NOT 3rd REICH political hierarchy...its personal...to be collected as the collector see's fit ...no rules.
jeez! this isn't hard!
now play nice ...or i'll have all your coins forcibly slabbed.
editud for schpelling
<< <i>I am not saying the MS coins are bad. If you know how to properly grade them then you can buy them raw, slabbed, or even in an SGS slab. Buy the coin not the Slab! >>
MS coins were the first coins to get slabbed- seems like ANACS MS Morgan dollars were the only slabs I seen for the first few months when slabs came to be. Also I would say slabs have had by the far the biggest impact on MS coins....
<< <i>This may not be new news to any of us posters here, but think of the thousands of collectors who do not post here. >>
But you posted it here, for this audience.
<< <i>If I can buy a slabbed coin for the same price as a raw coin of the same grade(my opinion on both) then we will call it a good day and I can crack it out for my album. >>
So you believe that certification, which is not free, and the protection it provides, which has a very real value, should come at no cost at all?
<< <i>Counterfiets seem to be down by in large but the others you mention are still in full swing. >>
Were you active in the 60s and 70s? I will agree that dipped and lightly cleaned coins can be found in slabs with some regularity, what you will not find are the whizzed and heavily cleaned coins which used to be sold en masse to the unsuspecting.
<< <i>On a side note I check out your site and you have some very very nice coins for sale. >>
Thanks!
<< <i>i like the slabs for protection.
i never "just" buy the slab.....i buy the coin.
i pay the price of the the "coin"...if i want it.
if the coin price doesn't come up to the the holders grade then i don't buy it.
if it doesn't come up to the holders grade...and...its price is lower because the seller also feels that it would be over priced...and...
has priced it in a range that still makes it desireable to mee ...then i will still buy it.
should the holder be one of the "big 3" it'll stay in its protective housing til such time i want to sell it.
unless...
i feel its over graded,under graded...or in my case ...lists the wrong color. (lincoln cents)
if its not in one of the "big 3" it gets cracked out and later on submitted to one of the "big 3"....not for prestige,registry sets, ego, or the the
lack of abiliity to grade...it gets a holder for protection ...period.
slabs make it easier to show a newbie, or a novice (and sometimes even experts ) your coin, without the fear of a thumbprint or
clumsy handling.
really ....this isn't hard to understand.
if you don't want to play...just enjoy your raw coins.
don't make a religous band wagon out of it ....and try to convert people to your religion.
people have different ideas about what they want to do.
i'm neither a "un-informed grader, "sheep" as you say...or a bad person for the hobby...so don't say i'm wrong because i like slabs.
coin collecting hobby IS NOT 3rd REICH political hierarchy...its personal...to be collected as the collector see's fit ...no rules.
jeez! this isn't hard!
now play nice ...or i'll have all your coins forcibly slabbed.
editud for schpelling >>
And thats the beauty of this hobby! One can collect what he or she likes. Slabbed or not slabbed. As long as you know how to grade then you can purchase any coin you choose even in an SGS slab. Your Big 3 are PCGS, NGC, and ANACS? If thats the case watch those new ANACS slabs. This is not my attempt to get more people to collect raw coins. This is just my opinions.
<< <i>
<< <i>This may not be new news to any of us posters here, but think of the thousands of collectors who do not post here. >>
But you posted it here, for this audience.
<< <i>If I can buy a slabbed coin for the same price as a raw coin of the same grade(my opinion on both) then we will call it a good day and I can crack it out for my album. >>
So you believe that certification, which is not free, and the protection it provides, which has a very real value, should come at no cost at all?
<< <i>Counterfiets seem to be down by in large but the others you mention are still in full swing./q]
Were you active in the 60s and 70s? I will agree that dipped and lightly cleaned coins can be found in slabs with some regularity, what you will not find are the whizzed and heavily cleaned coins which used to be sold en masse to the unsuspecting.
>>
First off I know this Audience is here but just maybe there are some new people to the coin industry here. Slabbing should not be free, even if they Body Bag your coin. They proivide a service which many people like. As a reference I am not only talking about slabs when I talk about cleaned coins and such, just take a look at ebay and the overgraded, cleaned coins for sale. Raw and slabbed. I was not active in the 60's and 70's but wish I had been.
<< <i>
<< <i>I am not saying the MS coins are bad. If you know how to properly grade them then you can buy them raw, slabbed, or even in an SGS slab. Buy the coin not the Slab! >>
MS coins were the first coins to get slabbed- seems like ANACS MS Morgan dollars were the only slabs I seen for the first few months when slabs came to be. Also I would say slabs have had by the far the biggest impact on MS coins.... >>
You are correct on the impact they have had on MS coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>evidently you weren't around before slabs came along or you would know the reason for them. They may not be perfect but they are better than what we had. >>
So your telling me you like the era now over say the 60's? >>
Amen, brother
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>evidently you weren't around before slabs came along or you would know the reason for them. They may not be perfect but they are better than what we had. >>
So your telling me you like the era now over say the 60's? >>
Amen, brother >>
More power to you then. I like the idea of going to the bank and getting some Morgans at face. For that matter finding many coins that just can't be found today without putting out loads of money.
<< <i>
<< <i>Bruce, each of the problems you presented (cleaning... unsuspecting buyers/ bad sellers...overgraded coins... ) were rampant before slabs. What certification does is slow down the sale of counterfeit and severely altered coins (such as added mintmarks and fake gold coins). The good far outweigh any bad you are able to come up with. >>
This a very valid point, but when does the buyer become responsable for his or her own purchases? Knowledge is the key to collecting. >>
That valid question has nothing to do with certification- the thrust of your thread. The buyer/collector is responsible all the way through his hobby experience, whether he buys slabbed coins or not.
<< <i>What certification does is slow down the sale of counterfeit and severely altered coins (such as added mintmarks and fake gold coins). >>
Certification yes (Everyone say "THANK YOU ANACS! They spent 14 years removing the counterfeits and altered coins before the slabbers came along.), but not grading which is where most of the abuses come from.
<< <i>slabbedcoinshaveopenedupanentireworldofcollectingfornewbies.newbiescansafelypurchasecoinswithrelativeconfidencewhiletheyarelearningtograde. >>
Yes a whole new world of suckers who can be sold the grading errors and coins from off-market slabbers for high amounts because they don't know that the services do screw up or that not all services are equal. Not to mention that many of them use the slab grading as a crutch and never bother to learn to grade. Why should they when they can just depend on the plastic numbers.
Actually with the crackout game, the slabbing errors, the sky high price jumps for one piont differences that no one can really define and which are probably not repeatable, all the non-top tier slabs that get sold to peoplewho don't know any better, it would not surprise me if more money is lost by newbies on slabs now than was ever lost before slabbing. There are MANY people here on the forum who have admitted that when they got started or came backinto coins they got taken big time buying coins in third tier slabs because they didn't know any better. In those cases
slabbing didn't protect it was an accomplice.
By the way Brucewar, I think you had a great thread starter and I pretty much agree with all of it. And thanks to Boom for cleaning it up.
Of course the answer is education. But most new collectors just coming in are too excited to take the time to learn, and the illusion of the protection that slabs project actually DISCOURAGES them from educating themselves. Education takes time, and it's difficult. I'll just depend on what the slab says and I'll be safe because they are professionals.
<< <i>In spite of what you say more people have gotten and will get screwed buying raw coins than will ever get screwed buying slabbed coins. At least slabbed coins level the playing field a lot more than it used to be. If there is a problem you at least have recourse thru some but not all of the grading companies. There will always be those who never take the time to learn about what they are doing and getting into the hobby to the nth degree isn't necessarily for everyone. For many collectors/investors the slab adds a measure of protection to their purchase that they just can't get from raw coins. Not everyone will be as "into it" as you are. Be glad those folks are in the hobby for without them the market would be much smaller indeed. >>
Yes this is true, many people will get screwed with raw coins. Why? Becuase they are buying coins they should not be. If the person cannot tell a good coin from a bad coin its time for them to hit the books. I would rather the size of the coin market go down by a bit then having people who don't know what they are buying driving up the price of coins based on a slab number. I do agree that slabs have helped the new people in protecting them from dealers trying to rip them off, but even in a slab you should be able to grade for yourself.
Actually with the crackout game, the slabbing errors, the sky high price jumps for one piont differences that no one can really define and which are probably not repeatable, all the non-top tier slabs that get sold to peoplewho don't know any better, it would not surprise me if more money is lost by newbies on slabs now than was ever lost before slabbing. There are MANY people here on the forum who have admitted that when they got started or came backinto coins they got taken big time buying coins in third tier slabs because they didn't know any better. In those cases
slabbing didn't protect it was an accomplice.
By the way Brucewar, I think you had a great thread starter and I pretty much agree with all of it. And thanks to Boom for cleaning it up.
Of course the answer is education. But most new collectors just coming in are too excited to take the time to learn, and the illusion of the protection that slabs project actually DISCOURAGES them from educating themselves. Education takes time, and it's difficult. I'll just depend on what the slab says and I'll be safe because they are professionals. >>
Thats my whole beef with alot of people collecting coins! They have money and throw it at numbers on slabs. They don't want to take the time to learn to grade like so many of us did. TDN says it best "There is no Santa Claus in Numismatics" You bring a valid point up about the 3rd tier slabs such as SGS, etc. Many people have been burned and many more will. Thanks for the comments.
I'll probably crack it out of its polymer tomb so I can actually enjoy the coin during my lifetime. But I plan to leave my wife instructions to re-slab them all after I go that great numastic bourse in the sky. Slabs do give a boost and some protection to the seller also.
<< <i>I like knowing that a slabbed coin is authentic (well, unless it is a "Micro O"
I'll probably crack it out of its polymer tomb so I can actually enjoy the coin during my lifetime. But I plan to leave my wife instructions to re-slab them all after I go that great numastic bourse in the sky. Slabs do give a boost and some protection to the seller also. >>
Slabs will tell you if a coin is authentic or not. That is very true, but do you really have that hard of a time picking out the fake coins? The "Micro O" was a whole big scandle if you ask me. You bring up the valid point of selling slabbed coins vs raw coins. The market now dictates coins in slabs generally bring more than raw coins. I can see why that is. People want a safety net. People need to take some responsabilty and learn to grade and the like. If I see 2 MS 64 coins I like, one being in a slab going for 15% more than the raw coin, you bet I am going to go for the raw coin. I hope the bourse in the sky is great. There are a great many coins I want!
<< <i>ughh... too long to read, someone please read and certify this as accurate/worthwhile - and then slab it - I'll buy the slab.
Now thats funny! LOL
It seems so easy when you are looking at very poor fakes. It's the above attitude that will get you into trouble more often than not IMO. The attitude to paraphrase is that I must rely on myself only because I can know-it-all. Bad idea.
I guarantee that I could show you several different 1955 DDO's, 09-S vdb's, gold coins and other coins that you would not score 100% as to authenticity. I know that I can't always tell the fakes from the geniune, so agian, for these type of coins I rely on PCGS.
Joe.
<< <i>The ONLY people who benefit from a TPG are scamming dealers and investors wanting to buy coins like commodities. TPG's have never kept a dealer who wanted to sell a slider at the next (or the next two) grades up from doing so. It has instead made it much easier. Now all he has to do point to the label of his overgraded drek--yes, even from 1st tier companies--and say there is the grade; take it or leave it. The plastic collectors--who, of course, can't be bothered to actually LEARN something about what they are buying then line up to be bent over. >>
I still believe this. Yes, there were a lot of problems in the hobby prior to certification. Yes, there were unscrupulous dealers out to cheat the unknowing. But, believe it or not, there are just as many of those dealers today as there ever were. In fact, I would be willing to bet there are even more simply because of the increase in the value of their possible return.
<< <i>That is very true, but do you really have that hard of a time picking out the fake coins?
It seems so easy when you are looking at very poor fakes. It's the above attitude that will get you into trouble more often than not IMO. The attitude to paraphrase is that I must rely on myself only because I can know-it-all. Bad idea.
I guarantee that I could show you several different 1955 DDO's, 09-S vdb's, gold coins and other coins that you would not score 100% as to authenticity. I know that I can't always tell the fakes from the geniune, so agian, for these type of coins I rely on PCGS.
Joe. >>
You make valid points. If that is the case and I cannot tell weather a coin is Authentic or not, then at that point in time I pass. Like you said I would prolly not get 100% on the fake coins, but I try not buy coins I cannot Authenticate and am able to grade myself. I agree that one should not solely rely on ones own knowledge soly, but it should be the first and last line of defense when buying coins. There are some very well made fakes out there, which sometimes even fool "the pros" or graders as we want to call them. Nobody can ever know it all, and I will admit I am far from it. I learn something new in coins everyday! Thanks for the opinions.
<< <i>Every time I see this thread and the word "numastics" I picture a coin dealer doing a routine on the parallel bars. >>
LOL
<< <i>Quoting myself from an earlier thread...
<< <i>The ONLY people who benefit from a TPG are scamming dealers and investors wanting to buy coins like commodities. TPG's have never kept a dealer who wanted to sell a slider at the next (or the next two) grades up from doing so. It has instead made it much easier. Now all he has to do point to the label of his overgraded drek--yes, even from 1st tier companies--and say there is the grade; take it or leave it. The plastic collectors--who, of course, can't be bothered to actually LEARN something about what they are buying then line up to be bent over. >>
I still believe this. Yes, there were a lot of problems in the hobby prior to certification. Yes, there were unscrupulous dealers out to cheat the unknowing. But, believe it or not, there are just as many of those dealers today as there ever were. In fact, I would be willing to bet there are even more simply because of the increase in the value of their possible return. >>
The way you put "bent over" is funny but true. There are also as many bad dealers if not more just based on the fact that the industry is larger as a whole.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Bruce, each of the problems you presented (cleaning... unsuspecting buyers/ bad sellers...overgraded coins... ) were rampant before slabs. What certification does is slow down the sale of counterfeit and severely altered coins (such as added mintmarks and fake gold coins). The good far outweigh any bad you are able to come up with. >>
This a very valid point, but when does the buyer become responsable for his or her own purchases? Knowledge is the key to collecting. >>
That valid question has nothing to do with certification- the thrust of your thread. The buyer/collector is responsible all the way through his hobby experience, whether he buys slabbed coins or not. >>
I agree 100% but slabs have made that soo much less pressure on the buyer to learn. Now a person can buy a slabbed coin and learn about it later. Assumin the coin is in a TPG's holder.
Agreed, and I see nothing wrong with that especially if one is buying PCGS.
Now someone learning will not have to find out when it comes time to sell that his "MS-65" morgan is really a cleaned AU.
Joe.
<< <i>Now a person can buy a slabbed coin and learn about it later. >>
This is one of the major downsides to slabbing, IMO. A lot of people don't really feel a need to understand what they are buying or learn how to evaluate coins on their own.
<< <i>
<< <i>Now a person can buy a slabbed coin and learn about it later. >>
This is one of the major downsides to slabbing, IMO. A lot of people don't really feel a need to understand what they are buying or learn how to evaluate coins on their own. >>
You hit the nail on the head and that is a very very bad habit.
<< <i>I agree 100% but slabs have made that soo much less pressure on the buyer to learn. Now a person can buy a slabbed coin and learn about it later. Assumin the coin is in a TPG's holder.
Agreed, and I see nothing wrong with that especially if one is buying PCGS.
Now someone learning will not have to find out when it comes time to sell that his "MS-65" morgan is really a cleaned AU.
Joe. >>
So you promote the fact that people should not learn about what they are buying? Just buy and sell the numbers?
I don't think promote is the right word. Will I or do I have the time to look and study to become "expert", no. Does that mean that I should not buy? I don't think so. Slabs (again, especially PCGS, and no, they don't pay me
If someone wanted to collect coins and was having thoughts of buying coins of some value, I would insist that he buy PCGS slabbed coins only. He can then participate and learn at his leisure (usually what a hobby is about IMO) without being ripped. That doesn't mean that you never actually look at the coin and never compare one PCGS MS-65 to another PCGS MS-65 to choose the best one, it just means that I don't have to become "expert" before buying or participating IMO.
Joe.
That said, I will agree with you that if people are paying big money just because one company (that slabbed the coin) stated the coin grades XX, it's silly, especially when a single grade point means big dollars. The Registry phenomenon really changed everything. Especially with the craze about getting a piece of plastic wrapped around a coin that's commonly found in today's change but happens to not have many, if any, miniscule marks on it. What makes it even worse is when people feel compelled to slab, what already is minted as essentially perfect, bullion "coins". It's nuts. But, hey...the slabbing companies make tons of dough and stay in business so they can keep slabbing rare (not just conditionally rare) coins and classic coins that are more liquid as a result of the authentication.
This whole slabbing craze reminds me of a very recent encounter I had with a collector selling a coin on eBay (without a picture) worth about $3500. I told him that I want to see the coin prior to making a decision on purchasing it. He said "Hey it's in an XYZ (major slabbing company) holder. Isn't that enough? People buy these sight unseen all the time!" He was a fool, unfortunately he's always somewhat right. There are other fools out there who'll buy it simply because of the number on the holder and the name of the grading company regardless of what the coin looks like.
[Edited to add...] Oh yeah....read my signature line and prove what I'm inferring is wrong.
Bruce
I buy a new car every few years. There's no way I could ever become an expert in all the nuances of new engineering changes. I depend on Consumer Reports to steer me in the right direction. That's what a reputable TPG does for me. It allows me to collect coins I enjoy with easy liquidity on ebay. I don't have the time or the NEED to become an expert grader. I dare say that many of the people who claim grading expertise are not as expert as they think. With reputable TPGs, I get consistency in grading along with authenticity certification. That makes my collecting experience less risky and more enjoyable.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
>>>My Collection
I was collecting coins in the 1960s. With two exceptions, every dealer to whom I ever even tried to sell a coin did his best to screw me. A coin he'd sell as a BU was an Unc. when you wanted to sell it back to him.
The only places where I could get decent coins were from these two dealers and a bid board or two. If I had $50 or $100 to spend, I went to auctions. Most coins were cleaned, whizzed, and were problem coins.
Most Uncs available were sliders. I think the worst offenders were the 1883 N/C Nickels at the time. You had to go through a lot of garbage to find something decent.
Do you honestly think this was better than today?
Okay, I do agree that as slabbing is a form of an insurance policy, this enabled sight-unseen buying and selling of coins, and with this safety net, this has contributed to coins fetching the monies they are bringing today. Due to slabbing and the internet, dealers can't cheat collectors as consistently as they did in the pre-slabbing era.
However, there are plenty of ignorant people with money in this world, and just as they got ripped by dishonest people in the pre-slabbing era, they are being ripped now. Instead of buying fake / whizzed coins, the higher end of this food-chain is now paying too much money for overgraded or marginal for the grade coins. The lower end of this food-chain is buying the material alluded to by other posters.
Ignorant people are going to get ripped one way or other, so I wouldn't specifically blame numismatics for this. If they didn't buy overgraded or overpriced coins, they'd pi** their money away buying penny stocks, day trading, or buying other 'investments' that they don't understand. If you buy something that you don't understand, and lose money in so doing, it's your fault. We do not live in a benevolent world.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I guess I disagree completely with your first sentence, and then it all goes downhill from there.
Slabs have done nothing good for the hobby? You would be hard-pressed to find many serious collectors who believe this. Even those in the minority who feel slabs have done more harm than good can find some good.
As for creating crooks, crooks have always found a way to be crooks in the coin biz. Always have, always will. The reputable TPGs have levelled the playing field for the novice.
No offense, but you should probably fix the "Numastics" typo in your thread title, too.
<< <i>Okay, I do agree that as slabbing is a form of an insurance policy, this enabled sight-unseen buying and selling of coins, and with this safety net, this has contributed to coins fetching the monies they are bringing today. Due to slabbing and the internet, dealers can't cheat collectors as consistently as they did in the pre-slabbing era. >>
True. This is probably my most-despised by-product of slabbing: it got enough people deeply into "the game" that many coins that I once thought would be obtainable once I had a decent job and decent income are now out of reach, probably permanently.
A lot of people with little coin-savvy but deep pockets now tread fearlessly, throwing lots of money around.
<< <i>Slabs definitely have their place, especially when it comes to authentication, protection, preservation, determining if there's a problem, and displayability of certain coins. For instance, I recently had ICG slab a ancient Greek Diobol because this type of coin was part of a notorious hoard of fakes and the coin is so small that protecting and displaying it became a real problem.
That said, I will agree with you that if people are paying big money just because one company (that slabbed the coin) stated the coin grades XX, it's silly, especially when a single grade point means big dollars. The Registry phenomenon really changed everything. Especially with the craze about getting a piece of plastic wrapped around a coin that's commonly found in today's change but happens to not have many, if any, miniscule marks on it. What makes it even worse is when people feel compelled to slab, what already is minted as essentially perfect, bullion "coins". It's nuts. But, hey...the slabbing companies make tons of dough and stay in business so they can keep slabbing rare (not just conditionally rare) coins and classic coins that are more liquid as a result of the authentication.
This whole slabbing craze reminds me of a very recent encounter I had with a collector selling a coin on eBay (without a picture) worth about $3500. I told him that I want to see the coin prior to making a decision on purchasing it. He said "Hey it's in an XYZ (major slabbing company) holder. Isn't that enough? People buy these sight unseen all the time!" He was a fool, unfortunately he's always somewhat right. There are other fools out there who'll buy it simply because of the number on the holder and the name of the grading company regardless of what the coin looks like.
[Edited to add...] Oh yeah....read my signature line and prove what I'm inferring is wrong.
Bruce >>
Authentication is the one area that alot of people fail miserably on myself included! Sure we can all spot the obvious fakes, but some of the good ones become hard to determine. In the case of ancients, here again is where knowledge comes into play. I don't deal in acients for the simple fact I don't know enough about them. You are 100% correct that some sellers are like that. I hope you passed on the coin. I cannot prove your sig line wrong.
<< <i>I only read the first page of posts and my comments are that people should stop taking the opportunity to make fun of those they think don't write as well as they do. About the subject matter: I hear your basic points, Brucewar, and while there is validity in there in my view I think slabs are generally good because they can elimite that lack of authenticity or attribution concerns for many and also protect them very well. Like many tools, you have to be careful though. >>
The 2 problems you speak of can be fixed with hitting the books. Think of all the rare varieties that existed pre slab time. People seemed to find them. While I have respect for that segment of the market, if one cannot tell the variety for oneself, move on. Handle the coins with ease and you will have no problems at all.
<< <i>So you promote the fact that people should not learn about what they are buying? Just buy and sell the numbers?
I don't think promote is the right word. Will I or do I have the time to look and study to become "expert", no. Does that mean that I should not buy? I don't think so. Slabs (again, especially PCGS, and no, they don't pay me
If someone wanted to collect coins and was having thoughts of buying coins of some value, I would insist that he buy PCGS slabbed coins only. He can then participate and learn at his leisure (usually what a hobby is about IMO) without being ripped. That doesn't mean that you never actually look at the coin and never compare one PCGS MS-65 to another PCGS MS-65 to choose the best one, it just means that I don't have to become "expert" before buying or participating IMO.
Joe. >>
Since when does learning to grade make you an expert? When I think of experts I think of David Q. Bowers, etc. etc.
<< <i>Slabbed coins provide the security needed to buy "sight unseen". I can buy a coin on ebay in a PCGS slab and more or less know what I am getting. I have limited access to coin shops and shows so getting the education necessary to grade different mint states is not possible. The limited access also means I can't pursue my collecting desires in person. To overcome the limitations, I am forced into buying sight-unseen. With a PCGS-slabbed coin, I can buy a PR69DCAM and know that I'm getting a pristine, authentic proof. I cannot have that certainty buying raw either in-hand or sight-unseen.
I buy a new car every few years. There's no way I could ever become an expert in all the nuances of new engineering changes. I depend on Consumer Reports to steer me in the right direction. That's what a reputable TPG does for me. It allows me to collect coins I enjoy with easy liquidity on ebay. I don't have the time or the NEED to become an expert grader. I dare say that many of the people who claim grading expertise are not as expert as they think. With reputable TPGs, I get consistency in grading along with authenticity certification. That makes my collecting experience less risky and more enjoyable. >>
I cannot fault the way you collect. Except for the statment "With a PCGS-slabbed coin, I can buy a PR69DCAM and know that I'm getting a pristine, authentic proof. I cannot have that certainty buying raw either in-hand or sight-unseen." If this is the case your telling me you can't tell the difference between 68, 69, and 70? If you cannot why not take the lesser of the coins since they all look the same right?
<< <i>I kept picturing you turning into The Hulk as I read your post... >>
Not quite, but that is funny! LOL
<< <i>Slabs are actually the BEST thing to happen to the hobby. They have created a level playing field, period. Of course the buyer still needs to be savvy as to what they're buying, but slabs have taken the incredible inconsistencies away from the equation. >>
A level playing field for who? The unknowing guy who buys a couple of slabs thinking its a good deal only to find out they are 3rd tier slabs? Or could it be the person who buys a few reputable slabs at high levels and when it comes time to sell the dealer says "These are not PCGS, and therefor I will pass you less for them." The field will never be level as much as people would like to think. You are correct and people should learn before they buy, just like you have with toners.
<< <i>That is very true, but do you really have that hard of a time picking out the fake coins? I got a very good fake Trade Dollar while in Vietnam that fooled most dealers who saw it. Do you really want to go there when considering the purchase of a high grade 16 D dime or 1856 Flyer?
I was collecting coins in the 1960s. With two exceptions, every dealer to whom I ever even tried to sell a coin did his best to screw me. A coin he'd sell as a BU was an Unc. when you wanted to sell it back to him.
The only places where I could get decent coins were from these two dealers and a bid board or two. If I had $50 or $100 to spend, I went to auctions. Most coins were cleaned, whizzed, and were problem coins.
Most Uncs available were sliders. I think the worst offenders were the 1883 N/C Nickels at the time. You had to go through a lot of garbage to find something decent.
Do you honestly think this was better than today?
Okay, I do agree that as slabbing is a form of an insurance policy, this enabled sight-unseen buying and selling of coins, and with this safety net, this has contributed to coins fetching the monies they are bringing today. Due to slabbing and the internet, dealers can't cheat collectors as consistently as they did in the pre-slabbing era.
However, there are plenty of ignorant people with money in this world, and just as they got ripped by dishonest people in the pre-slabbing era, they are being ripped now. Instead of buying fake / whizzed coins, the higher end of this food-chain is now paying too much money for overgraded or marginal for the grade coins. The lower end of this food-chain is buying the material alluded to by other posters.
Ignorant people are going to get ripped one way or other, so I wouldn't specifically blame numismatics for this. If they didn't buy overgraded or overpriced coins, they'd pi** their money away buying penny stocks, day trading, or buying other 'investments' that they don't understand. If you buy something that you don't understand, and lose money in so doing, it's your fault. We do not live in a benevolent world. >>
All your points lead me to this... Have some knowledge of what you are buying before you jump in. I agree 100% Like I have said before if you are buying coins that could be fake you better count any money you decide to spend on them a loss from the get go and you will be just fine.