<< <i>So my final opinon, BOTH parties were wrong.... >>
I don't get it. If a leading specialty dealer lists a coin as MS63, what are my responsibilities other than to purchase them as MS63 at most likely near to full retail. Why should I have to grill the specialist to insure what he selling is really as he has represented it. Now I understand that PCGS is bit screwy at times, but 5 out of 5? C'mon. On the surface this stinks.
I guess what really scratches my butt is the fact that after PCGS indicated the coins were not as described, a specialist dealer did not make the buyer whole. 75% of sales price. That is unacceptable to me. I'm afraid that unless I hear something to the contrary this dealer has been removed from my list.
And why does the buyer have to justify sending the coins to PCGS? That is his business and no one elses.
>>
My beliefs exactly. I believe making the buyer whole includes all grading costs. What is it with these big time coin dealers stickin' it to the humble collector lately?!
One of Scott Travers' books had a chapter about coin doctors, and stated something to the effect that the grading companies have slabbed so much expertly worked-on copper which is "attractive" that they tend to bodybag original copper.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
If one coin came back 63, two came back 62, one came back 58, and one was BB'ed, I would probably roll my eyes, think "typical PCGS", and not think about it again.
I do not like playing the submission game (seems as capricious as black jack, at times), but if I were the OP, I would buy them in the holder in the first place. There are probably lots of 64s and 63s around that people submitted figuring on getting the gem grade and have since given up on. You probably could end up with some very nice for the grade coins, in the slab, at a favorable price.
Edit: Oh, and that thread in which Rick hung Shylock out to dry (about a year ago) soured me on working with him in the future. I do respect what he has done for IHCs.
Hmm... what to add to this mess... sometimes the TPGs miss things? Sometimes a coin can be dipped, and some will find it acceptable, but the TPG graders won't? Rick's standards of grading are different from PCGS? Yes... I like this one best Seems in his book he states his standard of grading pretty well? Rick: A light dip or old cleaning as well as retoning is acceptable on MS63/64 coins as long as it's not harsh... PCGS: Any light dip or old cleaning should be bodybagged Of course this is just my speculations, but seems reasonable enough, yes? Oh, and of course on the flip side... I've seen a few coins in PCGS holders that I would have thought would be bagged for damage, cleaning, AT, etc. etc. etc. Yeah, maybe Rick didn't make his grading standards clear to you, but how many dealers do? At least Rick has his book
<< <i>That $500 included shipping and slabbing fees. Depending on the tier selected, that could have been well over $100. >>
And your point is?? >>
Someone mentioned that these were far more expensive coins than claimed because of the $500 loss.
But what's my real point? How do we KNOW that this isn't someone with a vendetta against Rick? How do we KNOW that these claims and accusations are truthful and accurate? It could be a completely accurate story, but my God, what's with the crucifixion here? Isn't the accused entitled to a cross-examination as well as a presentation of their side of the story? Not everyone is glued to here 24/7 and can respond within an hour or two.
Again, the "guilty until proven innocent mentality" showing here is disgusting. If a significant portion of the OP's claims are confirmed, I'd be plenty pissed, too. But do we know who this is, or what their history with Rick might be?
<< <i>If I were Mr. Snow, I would have offered to buy them back at the original full prices, plus S&H, rather than giving excuses. >>
As would I.
But the truth is that we have one person's view of a transaction, and there are two sides of every story. That so many people are taking the original account of the transaction as the undisputed gospel truth is unnerving to me. >>
<< <i>How does one lose $500 on 5 MS63 IHC's when they got 75% of their purchase price back? >>
Ok, let's do the math: Assume grading fees, including shipping were $30 each, that would be $150.00 total. That leaves $350.00 as the 25% loss. $350.00 is 25% of $1400.00
That means each indian cent had a value of $280.00
That would not be hard with coins from the late 1860's through the 1870's in MS-63 or MS-64 discounted for being cleaned.
<< <i>How does one lose $500 on 5 MS63 IHC's when they got 75% of their purchase price back? >>
If there were $200.00 in grading fees and postage that would leave a loss of $300.00 (25% of the purchase price). That's $60.00 ea. so that would make them around $240.00 coins. Several of the early dates bring that in 63.
Bottom line for me is that I won't pass any judgement on either of the parties involved until Rick has had a chance to present his side of the story. It's hard for me to imagine that he would knowingly sell cleaned coins as wrighty suggests but....I was not privy to the original sale or submission to PCGS and I haven't seen the coins so more info is needed, in my opinion, before either parties credibility can be questioned.
If indeed we have a collector who is serious about doing a date set of IHCs in PCGS MS63, one would think a dealer would want to cultivate a relationship with said collector, unless said collector is a total PITA.
WITHOUT hearing both sides of the story, for all I know it went down like this:
Collector (after spending a long time monopolizing the dealer's attention on inconsequential matters): So how much for these raw IHCs in 63?
Dealer: (gives price)
Collector: They are all raw, you should give me a better price.
Dealer: (getting irritated, knocks 5% off)
Collector: C'mon, aren't you the "market maker"? Surely your margins are lower than that.
Dealer: (now really POed, knocks 10% off and says take it or leave it).
Customer accepts offer and now produces check signed by another dealer, with the "to" field not filled out.
Customer: This check is from so-and-so. He's a good guy. But it's written for $100 more than we agreed. Can you give me the hundred bucks in cash?
Dealer has had a crappy show and agrees to do the business, hoping to never deal with customer "X" again.
Just an fyi, L&C GUARANTESS not only copper but ANY raw coin you buy from them that later gets bb'd at PCGS unless they tell you up front that it has a problem & some of their coins do but there is still value a net graded coins.
If this story is true, or mostly true, it's pretty sad. But without a doubt to me, a dealer should always note if they think or know a coin has been cleaned. Still waiting for more info on this story.....
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
Just an fyi, L&C GUARANTESS not only copper but ANY raw coin you buy from them that later gets bb'd at PCGS unless they tell you up front that it has a problem & some of their coins do but there is still value a net graded coins. >>
Rare Coins of New Hampshire has the guarantee on any raw coins they sell to grade the same by the TPGS.
<< <i>you are sending off 63's for grading, not too smart". Then he proceeds to tell me something along the lines of, "If you had read my books you would know that a coin can be described as MS63 or MS64 if it has been lightly cleaned or dipped." >>
Rick was way off on a coin I bought from him once too.
It was a rare DDO and he claimed it was a AU58. It came back MS63.
It's unfortunate you posted this now - he's probably on his way to Atlanta. Hell be hanging from the tree before he has a chance to reply.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
That said, a MS-63 quality coin is usually not a great coin, it's "Typical Uncirculated" and is not the kind of coins you want to send in for grading. Just look at the population numbers. They drop off MS-60 to MS-63.
Pictures of the coins, when they return to me (and when I return from Atlanta) will be posted here (unless I get them tomorrow).
As for the transaction history, these were part of a raw set I took on consignment (because at the price it took to get it, it didn't make sense to buy it outright) I make 10% on consignments and when you are talking $30 to $50 coins (even $200 coins), the descriptions will be very vague, if anything. On obviously cleaned coins I always mention the problems. I don't want to sell a coin for $5 tp $10 profit only to have it returned, so I try to be very clear with my description. Usually I don't list the problem coins, I just accumulate them and sell them to other dealers.
For example on the raw set listed here, I didn't put descritions yet and I won't have time until after Atlanta:
The purchaser did not tell me he wanted to build a slab collection. He was a bargain hunter, buying the cheapest (close to Grey sheet) coins he could find. I priced the coins according to their quality.
This collector is a self described newbie. No problem! I want to help him avoid mistakes. But If he just calls up and says I want this, this, this and this, thanks. Bye... I can't help him.
He got his coins back in body bags and immediately went on a shoot to kill rampage! He sent me a blistering e-mail and posted here as well. Then he called me. Since then I have made him very fair offers on his coins. If there is still a problem he did not tell me. He was oh so nice last time I talked to him. He said nothing about the venomous posting here.
As a postscript, I think there is too much negative emphasis placed on coins that don't grade at PCGS. MS-63's are great coins for filling an album with. Lots of coin for the money, but there is no free lunch - you get what you pay for. If you want a high quality coin that will grade at PCGS buy a MS-64 or better. I'm talking coppers here - silver and gold is very different. You can dip gold and silver and still have a gradeable coin, with copper you cant. So what do you call a copper coin that uncirculated but is dipped? XF? AU? The maximum I tell people is MS-63.
I always am free and honest with my opinions of the coins I have. If it certianly won't grade, I'll tell you. If there's a chance it won't grade, I'll give you a percentage. You gotta ask though. Even then, PCGS will certianly throw some out that should have graded.
thanks for the response Rick but I think you have me confused with someone else I never sent you an e-mail and you said in your response that "since then you have made fair offers on my coins" I have not talked to you since this incident and if my memory serves me right I have never sold you any coins, must be someone else you are thinking of. If you read my posts I say this in not a Rick Snow Bashing. I was simply looking for some educated opinions. In addition I mentioned that I have bought both slabbed and raw coins from you in the past and have been pleased especially because the raw coins always slabbed. This one time when all the coins did not slab I was shocked and hence the posting to get some opinions.
I don't believe (IMHO) any of the posts by Wrighty are "venomous". And, after reading "both sides", I'd still have offered to buy them back full prices, if I were Mr. Snow. Makes you appreciate dealers like RCNH. Again, JMHO.
He got his coins back in body bags and immediately went on a shoot to kill rampage! He sent me a blistering e-mail and posted here as well. Then he called me. Since then I have made him very fair offers on his coins. If there is still a problem he did not tell me. He was oh so nice last time I talked to him. He said nothing about the venomous posting here.
In fairness to the OP, the venom came from the forum, not him.
thanks for the response Rick but I think you have me confused with someone else I never sent you an e-mail and you said in your response that "since then you have made fair offers on my coins"...
There's someone else out there with the same problem?
It certainly does seem more reasonable having heard both sides of the story.
Wrighty; I think you'd have an excellent reason to twist an arm if you hadn't had posession of the coins for so long. This goes beyond a restocking fee. Al- so collectors should remember that it's not fair to pick and choose stuff from a dealer. As someone pointed out if they had slabbed MS-65 you wouldn't be offering him more money (and the previous coins did grade).
If they hadn't already been returned you might consider asking them to be sold on consignment or some such.
It would seem you're pretty much dependent on things not covered in the contract or return contract at this point. Still... Good luck.
The lessons are at least two, always assume a raw Indian Head Cent won't slab regardless of where you purchase it. I know I've been buying them since the 50's. Quite frankly I don't buy them to slab them. Second lesson get out to shows and buy them yourself but still don't expect them to slab.
We can have an honest debate on what should and shouldn't slab, but the grading services are conservative on them for fear of them turning, etc. Maybe we would all be better off if they just assumed a numerical grade and let the collector judge the color.
<< <i>After hearing both sides of the story, I would be more than happy to do biz with Mr. Snow. >>
I respectfully disagree.
Mr. Snow, like any dealer, should back the coins he sells with an implied, if not defacto, guarantee of originality. Originality should be defined as a coin that will slab at the major services. If there is any question of said originality, I believe that the the seller has an obligation to disclose problems with raw coins.
We all bargain hunt for our coins so that doesn't mean "lower budget" collectors should get any less service (i.e. guarantee) than those who pay big bucks.
Just because the coins are on consignment shouldn't release the dealer from the obligation of a guarantee.
Having a general disclaimer about color and toning should not preclude the seller (especially a consensus expert) from disclosing concerns during each sale.
C'mon big-shot dealers - quit taking advantage of the collectors! Show some business ethics!
Just an fyi, L&C GUARANTESS not only copper but ANY raw coin you buy from them that later gets bb'd at PCGS unless they tell you up front that it has a problem & some of their coins do but there is still value a net graded coins. >>
Shameless
<< <i>And the lesson of this thread is what? >>
Lesson of the thread appears to be: It's harder to hop on a hate bandwagon when the carriage is higher up.
-Daniel
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
Well, how about that! by conincidence I had a customer e-mail me yesterday all fired up about a very similar incident! A MS-63 that didn't grade. His e-mail was very vicious. When he called I explained to him that communication is a two way street. If you have questions please ask.
I was responding to his conversation.
Anyway by talking to him we made a very equitable deal and as far as we left it he's happy. He's getting a full refund toward already graded PCGS coins.
As far as Wrighty is concerned, I'm sorry I mixed you up with this very recent occurence. But the way to fix your problems is to talk to me and work it out.
Thanks again for the response Rick. We did talk and you did educate me on the fact that coins can be described as MS63 or MS64 having been gently cleaned or dipped in the past. This I did not know. If I remember correctly you were a little surprised when I told you the 1894 MS64 did not slab through PCGS. Maybe I live in a fantasy world were coins described Mint State are completely original and until I spoke to you I was under that mistaken assumption. Since the time these coins didn't slab I have NOT bought a raw IHC. My set is 60% finished and I will only buy slabbed IHC's. At the prices they are going for now I should finish the set in the year 2018.
<< <i>Thanks again for the response Rick. We did talk and you did educate me on the fact that coins can be described as MS63 or MS64 having been gently cleaned or dipped in the past. This I did not know. If I remember correctly you were a little surprised when I told you the 1894 MS64 did not slab through PCGS. Maybe I live in a fantasy world were coins described Mint State are completely original and until I spoke to you I was under that mistaken assumption. Since the time these coins didn't slab I have NOT bought a raw IHC. My set is 60% finished and I will only buy slabbed IHC's. At the prices they are going for now I should finish the set in the year 2018. >>
That is a bit of a compromising perspective for someone out $500 on a purchase, don't you think? In your recent PMs with the dealer, did you get a 100% coin return and grading fees refund promise???
No one has mentioned the lesson that should have been learned here.
Wrighty: Did you ever suggest returning the coins to Rick Snow in exchange for other coins in Rick Snow's inventory? Had you done so I am sure Rick would have offered you very close to if not a full 100% value in exchange instead of a 75% cash refund???
Rick: Am I making any sense here?
I am quite frankly surprised no one had discussed this before. This way both parties have a win-win scenario provided the seller is an honest dealer. Rick is one of those honest dealers in my book.
Side memo to Rick; I haven't had the time to research the CWT's out as we discussed! Work, work, work!
Mr. Snow, like any dealer, should back the coins he sells with an implied, if not defacto, guarantee of originality. Originality should be defined as a coin that will slab at the major services. If there is any question of said originality, I believe that the the seller has an obligation to disclose problems with raw coins.
I back all my coins fully. After a period of time the return priveledge turns into a "purchase at the same grade" guarentee. You can even get your full money back, if you agree to a consignment and it sells at 110% of your original price, which isn't hard in this market. What more do you want! You are a obviously a toned coin collector. I love toned coins. I would expect a guarentee you describe for toned coins as well.
We all bargain hunt for our coins so that doesn't mean "lower budget" collectors should get any less service (i.e. guarantee) than those who pay big bucks.
You must temper bargain hunting with knowledge. If you are looking only at prices and grade you are looking for trouble. If you have knowledge about a quality coin which is undergraded you do not need guarentees from any dealer. However if you are a new collector, you must ask a lot of questions. Look at a lot of coins. You have to ask for help. I believe that agreeing to buy a coin back for the same grade is a suitable safety net for all collectors. My guarentee is at least 75% of the retail price. You can negotiate more too.
Just because the coins are on consignment shouldn't release the dealer from the obligation of a guarantee.
I mentioned that the coins were on consignment as to why there were not full descriptions. There is no different guarentee for consignment coins.
Having a general disclaimer about color and toning should not preclude the seller (especially a consensus expert) from disclosing concerns during each sale.
C'mon big-shot dealers - quit taking advantage of the collectors! Show some business ethics!
I pride myself on my ethics. I don't see a problem with the rules I hold myself to. I don't see anyway that anyone was taken advantage of, unless you think a resonable business mark-up is taking advantage.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>So my final opinon, BOTH parties were wrong.... >>
I don't get it. If a leading specialty dealer lists a coin as MS63, what are my responsibilities other than to purchase them as MS63 at most likely near to full retail. Why should I have to grill the specialist to insure what he selling is really as he has represented it. Now I understand that PCGS is bit screwy at times, but 5 out of 5? C'mon. On the surface this stinks.
I guess what really scratches my butt is the fact that after PCGS indicated the coins were not as described, a specialist dealer did not make the buyer whole. 75% of sales price. That is unacceptable to me. I'm afraid that unless I hear something to the contrary this dealer has been removed from my list.
And why does the buyer have to justify sending the coins to PCGS? That is his business and no one elses.
>>
My beliefs exactly. I believe making the buyer whole includes all grading costs. What is it with these big time coin dealers stickin' it to the humble collector lately?!
Doug
Were they not Eagle Eye approved?
<< <i>Spend $30 + postage to slab a $50 coin? As Rick said, "not too smart." >>
He lost $500.00 in the deal, that's $100.00 each. So the coins were considerably more than $50 coins.
the grading companies have slabbed so much expertly worked-on copper which is "attractive" that they
tend to bodybag original copper.
I also agree.
If one coin came back 63, two came back 62, one came back 58, and one was BB'ed, I would probably roll my eyes, think "typical PCGS", and not think about it again.
I do not like playing the submission game (seems as capricious as black jack, at times), but if I were the OP, I would buy them in the holder in the first place. There are probably lots of 64s and 63s around that people submitted figuring on getting the gem grade and have since given up on. You probably could end up with some very nice for the grade coins, in the slab, at a favorable price.
Edit: Oh, and that thread in which Rick hung Shylock out to dry (about a year ago) soured me on working with him in the future. I do respect what he has done for IHCs.
42/92
<< <i>He lost $500.00 in the deal, that's $100.00 each. So the coins were considerably more than $50 coins. >>
That $500 included shipping and slabbing fees. Depending on the tier selected, that could have been well over $100.
<< <i>That $500 included shipping and slabbing fees. Depending on the tier selected, that could have been well over $100. >>
And your point is??
<< <i>
<< <i>That $500 included shipping and slabbing fees. Depending on the tier selected, that could have been well over $100. >>
And your point is?? >>
Someone mentioned that these were far more expensive coins than claimed because of the $500 loss.
But what's my real point? How do we KNOW that this isn't someone with a vendetta against Rick? How do we KNOW that these claims and accusations are truthful and accurate? It could be a completely accurate story, but my God, what's with the crucifixion here? Isn't the accused entitled to a cross-examination as well as a presentation of their side of the story? Not everyone is glued to here 24/7 and can respond within an hour or two.
Again, the "guilty until proven innocent mentality" showing here is disgusting. If a significant portion of the OP's claims are confirmed, I'd be plenty pissed, too. But do we know who this is, or what their history with Rick might be?
<< <i>
<< <i>If I were Mr. Snow, I would have offered to buy them back at the original full prices, plus S&H, rather than giving excuses. >>
As would I.
But the truth is that we have one person's view of a transaction, and there are two sides of every story. That so many people are taking the original account of the transaction as the undisputed gospel truth is unnerving to me. >>
Never stopped us before. Get a rope!
By grossly overpaying in the first place?
<< <i>How does one lose $500 on 5 MS63 IHC's when they got 75% of their purchase price back?
Ok, let's do the math:
Assume grading fees, including shipping were $30 each, that would be $150.00 total.
That leaves $350.00 as the 25% loss.
$350.00 is 25% of $1400.00
That means each indian cent had a value of $280.00
That would not be hard with coins from the late 1860's through the 1870's in MS-63 or MS-64 discounted for being cleaned.
Clearly, they were not $50 coins, on average.
Tom
<< <i>How does one lose $500 on 5 MS63 IHC's when they got 75% of their purchase price back? >>
If there were $200.00 in grading fees and postage that would leave a loss of $300.00 (25% of the purchase price). That's $60.00 ea. so that would make them around $240.00 coins. Several of the early dates bring that in 63.
What were the dates????
Ken
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
If indeed we have a collector who is serious about doing a date set of IHCs in PCGS MS63, one would think a dealer would want to cultivate a relationship with said collector, unless said collector is a total PITA.
WITHOUT hearing both sides of the story, for all I know it went down like this:
Collector (after spending a long time monopolizing the dealer's attention on inconsequential matters): So how much for these raw IHCs in 63?
Dealer: (gives price)
Collector: They are all raw, you should give me a better price.
Dealer: (getting irritated, knocks 5% off)
Collector: C'mon, aren't you the "market maker"? Surely your margins are lower than that.
Dealer: (now really POed, knocks 10% off and says take it or leave it).
Customer accepts offer and now produces check signed by another dealer, with the "to" field not filled out.
Customer: This check is from so-and-so. He's a good guy. But it's written for $100 more than we agreed. Can you give me the hundred bucks in cash?
Dealer has had a crappy show and agrees to do the business, hoping to never deal with customer "X" again.
Just an fyi, L&C GUARANTESS not only copper but ANY raw coin you buy from them that later gets bb'd at PCGS unless they tell you up front that it has a problem & some of their coins do but there is still value a net graded coins.
<< <i>Offering NO opinion here.
Just an fyi, L&C GUARANTESS not only copper but ANY raw coin you buy from them that later gets bb'd at PCGS unless they tell you up front that it has a problem & some of their coins do but there is still value a net graded coins. >>
Rare Coins of New Hampshire has the guarantee on any raw coins they sell to grade the same by the TPGS.
<< <i>you are sending off 63's for grading, not too smart". Then he proceeds to tell me something along the lines of, "If you had read my books you would know that a coin can be described as MS63 or MS64 if it has been lightly cleaned or dipped." >>
I'd agree with that
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
Did you buy these near the end of the month?
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
It was a rare DDO and he claimed it was a AU58. It came back MS63.
It's unfortunate you posted this now - he's probably on his way to Atlanta. Hell be hanging from the tree before he has a chance to reply.
MS-63 A few light marks or small spots. Unnatural color, if present should not be offensive.
Grading Guide
That said, a MS-63 quality coin is usually not a great coin, it's "Typical Uncirculated" and is not the kind of coins you want to send in for grading. Just look at the population numbers. They drop off MS-60 to MS-63.
Pictures of the coins, when they return to me (and when I return from Atlanta) will be posted here (unless I get them tomorrow).
As for the transaction history, these were part of a raw set I took on consignment (because at the price it took to get it, it didn't make sense to buy it outright) I make 10% on consignments and when you are talking $30 to $50 coins (even $200 coins), the descriptions will be very vague, if anything. On obviously cleaned coins I always mention the problems. I don't want to sell a coin for $5 tp $10 profit only to have it returned, so I try to be very clear with my description. Usually I don't list the problem coins, I just accumulate them and sell them to other dealers.
For example on the raw set listed here, I didn't put descritions yet and I won't have time until after Atlanta:
Eagle Eye listing
The purchaser did not tell me he wanted to build a slab collection. He was a bargain hunter, buying the cheapest (close to Grey sheet) coins he could find. I priced the coins according to their quality.
This collector is a self described newbie. No problem! I want to help him avoid mistakes. But If he just calls up and says I want this, this, this and this, thanks. Bye... I can't help him.
He got his coins back in body bags and immediately went on a shoot to kill rampage! He sent me a blistering e-mail and posted here as well. Then he called me. Since then I have made him very fair offers on his coins. If there is still a problem he did not tell me. He was oh so nice last time I talked to him. He said nothing about the venomous posting here.
As a postscript, I think there is too much negative emphasis placed on coins that don't grade at PCGS. MS-63's are great coins for filling an album with. Lots of coin for the money, but there is no free lunch - you get what you pay for. If you want a high quality coin that will grade at PCGS buy a MS-64 or better. I'm talking coppers here - silver and gold is very different. You can dip gold and silver and still have a gradeable coin, with copper you cant. So what do you call a copper coin that uncirculated but is dipped? XF? AU? The maximum I tell people is MS-63.
I always am free and honest with my opinions of the coins I have. If it certianly won't grade, I'll tell you. If there's a chance it won't grade, I'll give you a percentage. You gotta ask though. Even then, PCGS will certianly throw some out that should have graded.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
And, after reading "both sides", I'd still have offered to buy them back full prices, if I were Mr. Snow.
Makes you appreciate dealers like RCNH. Again, JMHO.
In fairness to the OP, the venom came from the forum, not him.
thanks for the response Rick but I think you have me confused with someone else I never sent you an e-mail and you said in your response that "since then you have made fair offers on my coins"...
There's someone else out there with the same problem?
It certainly does seem more reasonable having heard both sides of the story.
<< <i>And the lesson of this thread is what? >>
That you're supposed to ask a dealer if the coins will grade or not. If you don't ask then you're out of luck.
<< <i>And the lesson of this thread is what? >>
Solve your problems in private?
(Can't help but feel that both dealer and collector are getting black marks for no real good reason).
You can't make chicken salad out of chickensht.
<< <i> And the lesson of this thread is what?
You can't make chicken salad out of chickensht.
Wanna bet?
had posession of the coins for so long. This goes beyond a restocking fee. Al-
so collectors should remember that it's not fair to pick and choose stuff from a
dealer. As someone pointed out if they had slabbed MS-65 you wouldn't be
offering him more money (and the previous coins did grade).
If they hadn't already been returned you might consider asking them to be sold
on consignment or some such.
It would seem you're pretty much dependent on things not covered in the contract
or return contract at this point. Still... Good luck.
<< <i>And the lesson of this thread is what? >>
The lessons are at least two, always assume a raw Indian Head Cent won't slab regardless of where you purchase it. I know I've been buying them since the 50's. Quite frankly I don't buy them to slab them. Second lesson get out to shows and buy them yourself but still don't expect them to slab.
We can have an honest debate on what should and shouldn't slab, but the grading services are conservative on them for fear of them turning, etc. Maybe we would all be better off if they just assumed a numerical grade and let the collector judge the color.
<< <i>And the lesson of this thread is what? >>
A lot of people have way too much free time on their hands
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since 8/1/6
<< <i>After hearing both sides of the story, I would be more than happy to do biz with Mr. Snow. >>
I respectfully disagree.
Mr. Snow, like any dealer, should back the coins he sells with an implied, if not defacto, guarantee of originality. Originality should be defined as a coin that will slab at the major services. If there is any question of said originality, I believe that the the seller has an obligation to disclose problems with raw coins.
We all bargain hunt for our coins so that doesn't mean "lower budget" collectors should get any less service (i.e. guarantee) than those who pay big bucks.
Just because the coins are on consignment shouldn't release the dealer from the obligation of a guarantee.
Having a general disclaimer about color and toning should not preclude the seller (especially a consensus expert) from disclosing concerns during each sale.
C'mon big-shot dealers - quit taking advantage of the collectors! Show some business ethics!
Doug
<< <i>Offering NO opinion here.
Just an fyi, L&C GUARANTESS not only copper but ANY raw coin you buy from them that later gets bb'd at PCGS unless they tell you up front that it has a problem & some of their coins do but there is still value a net graded coins. >>
Shameless
<< <i>And the lesson of this thread is what? >>
Lesson of the thread appears to be: It's harder to hop on a hate bandwagon when the carriage is higher up.
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
I was responding to his conversation.
Anyway by talking to him we made a very equitable deal and as far as we left it he's happy. He's getting a full refund toward already graded PCGS coins.
As far as Wrighty is concerned, I'm sorry I mixed you up with this very recent occurence. But the way to fix your problems is to talk to me and work it out.
<< <i>As far as Wrighty is concerned, ....the way to fix your problems is to talk to me and work it out. >>
I thought he stated he already tried this?
Doug
But what fun is that?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Thanks again for the response Rick. We did talk and you did educate me on the fact that coins can be described as MS63 or MS64 having been gently cleaned or dipped in the past. This I did not know. If I remember correctly you were a little surprised when I told you the 1894 MS64 did not slab through PCGS. Maybe I live in a fantasy world were coins described Mint State are completely original and until I spoke to you I was under that mistaken assumption. Since the time these coins didn't slab I have NOT bought a raw IHC. My set is 60% finished and I will only buy slabbed IHC's. At the prices they are going for now I should finish the set in the year 2018. >>
That is a bit of a compromising perspective for someone out $500 on a purchase, don't you think? In your recent PMs with the dealer, did you get a 100% coin return and grading fees refund promise???
Doug
No one has mentioned the lesson that should have been learned here.
Wrighty: Did you ever suggest returning the coins to Rick Snow in exchange for other coins in Rick Snow's inventory? Had you done so I am sure Rick would have offered you very close to if not a full 100% value in exchange instead of a 75% cash refund???
Rick: Am I making any sense here?
I am quite frankly surprised no one had discussed this before. This way both parties have a win-win scenario provided the seller is an honest dealer. Rick is one of those honest dealers in my book.
Side memo to Rick; I haven't had the time to research the CWT's out as we discussed! Work, work, work!
<< <i>Wrighty: Did you ever suggest returning the coins to Rick Snow in exchange for other coins in Rick Snow's inventory? >>
I would think that the primary onus would be on a seller/dealer to propose...not a buyer/collector.
Doug
Let me answer your post:
Mr. Snow, like any dealer, should back the coins he sells with an implied, if not defacto, guarantee of originality. Originality should be defined as a coin that will slab at the major services. If there is any question of said originality, I believe that the the seller has an obligation to disclose problems with raw coins.
I back all my coins fully. After a period of time the return priveledge turns into a "purchase at the same grade" guarentee. You can even get your full money back, if you agree to a consignment and it sells at 110% of your original price, which isn't hard in this market. What more do you want! You are a obviously a toned coin collector. I love toned coins. I would expect a guarentee you describe for toned coins as well.
We all bargain hunt for our coins so that doesn't mean "lower budget" collectors should get any less service (i.e. guarantee) than those who pay big bucks.
You must temper bargain hunting with knowledge. If you are looking only at prices and grade you are looking for trouble. If you have knowledge about a quality coin which is undergraded you do not need guarentees from any dealer. However if you are a new collector, you must ask a lot of questions. Look at a lot of coins. You have to ask for help. I believe that agreeing to buy a coin back for the same grade is a suitable safety net for all collectors. My guarentee is at least 75% of the retail price. You can negotiate more too.
Just because the coins are on consignment shouldn't release the dealer from the obligation of a guarantee.
I mentioned that the coins were on consignment as to why there were not full descriptions. There is no different guarentee for consignment coins.
Having a general disclaimer about color and toning should not preclude the seller (especially a consensus expert) from disclosing concerns during each sale.
C'mon big-shot dealers - quit taking advantage of the collectors! Show some business ethics!
I pride myself on my ethics. I don't see a problem with the rules I hold myself to. I don't see anyway that anyone was taken advantage of, unless you think a resonable business mark-up is taking advantage.