<< <i>Cameron does not work in a vacuum at ICG. There are at least 2 other graders backing up what his opinion is on a coin. If he's wrong, they won't hesitate to point it out. His grading skills were quite eye-openingly accurate (as I understand it) at the ANA and he raised more than a few eyebrows...not just at ICG mind you. >>
I'd like to steer this away from Cameron and speak in general. Again, I think the way ICG announced this was a mistake. A lot of people have talked about it privately in regards to a grading company hiring someone in their early 20s. It's not viewed as a good thing by many. I figured I would take some heat on this, and so be it, it's important in my opinion. We are all aware of ICG's reputation, and I think a lot of people don't really care about this because serious money coins are not bought sight unseen in ICG holders.
Let me put this another way. What would be the opinion if PCGS were to announce they just hired a 22 year old that we don't know? Would any of you be concerned? >>
I don't have a concern with the age nor the grade of the coin (as mentioned, the person is not a maverick doing it all on their own). If the person has the skills to grade multiple series, go for it. If the person hasn't/can't grade a certain series due to no experience with it (say, old gold or chain cents or whatnot), then someone else can grade and they can learn.
I don't get a rat's asp if the grader is in their 20s.
The only concern I would have for the age is that maybe they haven't had time to see/learn all the fake/counterfeit info. I think I would trust the grading (and, if I didn't, then I would go by my own grading anyway).
It's much better that Cam went into this with experience and then starts in a TPGS young than it is for him to be out there for 20+ years grading in his own coin shop and maybe wanting to "play the grading game with grades".
As it is, he can't submit so he has no reason to not be as accurate as possible. And, his grades get judged just like his colleagues' grades.
So, to put it in context of Cameron, I say "more power to ya!" In context of a youthful grader, I say "age doesn't matter, skill does. If you doubt someone because of their age, then you will miss out on a lot". If you have trouble with Cameron's grading, then that is understandable (as something to focus on....just using an example). If you have trouble with his age, then I think it is an unbiased concern.
<< <i>The only concern I would have for the age is that maybe they haven't had time to see/learn all the fake/counterfeit info. I think I would trust the grading (and, if I didn't, then I would go by my own grading anyway). >>
Bingo. The ability to grade isn't the only concern as far as working for a grading company. People also must remember that they also certify authenticity. Being able to detect altered and counterfeit coins require a lot of experience.
<< <i>I would guess that if you can graduate with an MD at around that age, you could certainly learn to grade thousands of 2004 proof sets. >>
Actually, ICG doesn't segregate their graders that way. All graders get a chance to grade virtually all types of coins. Truly exceptional or highly-counterfeited coins (good counterfeits) may have to go by J.P.'s desk first, though before going back out to the customer.
Actually, I think Eric is right on. What's the point of having multiple graders to increase accuracy if one of them doesn't have the experience necessary to weigh in on the important coins? Although I don't submit or buy ICG graded coins, if I did the experience of the grading team would certainly weigh on my mind.
Best wishes and good luck to Cameron ... what a great start in the industry!
K6AZ, age is pretty irrelevant to having talent grading coins. Even if he misses a counterfeit coin, it still has to get past the other graders as well. If PCGS hired a 22 year old grader as one of their graders, I fail to see why it would matter. If they're still capable, it's just fine. - As far as I've heard and seen, Cam is perfectly capable himself.
In addition, you said so yourself you don't buy ICG coins, so I don't get why in a post later on you said: I'm speaking in terms of being a buyer, especially if you buy expensive coins.
Honestly, if you can't semi-accurately grade a coin in an ICG holder, or if you can't recognize that it's clearly overgraded or undergraded(ha ), then you shouldn't be buying them in the first place. (This isn't a direct comment towards YOU, but moreso to the public that buys coins because they have more cents than sense.) The only people who buy ICG coins and end up being disappointed with the harsh truth that the grade is incorrect are the people with a limited knowledge basis to begin with. I think Cameron working for ICG could have a positive benefit on their grading and look forward to the future.
-Daniel
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
Daniel, I said I don't submit coins to ICG. I buy them all the time when I find them accurately graded.
I'm sorry, but I disagree with you on the experience. I just don't think someone in their early 20s has enough professional experience to be a professional grader. If they had hired him as a trainee that would be one thing, but the way they worded the release makes it sound like he's right up there with JP Martin. And again, I'm not directing this towards Cameron, but the owners of ICG. They are not going to gain market acceptability doing this. If this had been some other kid they hired that none of us knew, I doubt I would have spent all day defending my position through PMs and emails.
I wonder where he had the time to get all that experience grading coins and detecting artificial toning, enhanced luster, lasering, puttying, thumbing & other altered surfaces while he was otherwise occupied with collecting sample slabs, chasing girls and racking up tens of thousands of posts on the Open Forum!
Absolutely, probably even more concerned had it been NGC. And it wouldn't matter to me if it was Cameron or someone else his age. A professional grader should have many years experience hands on.
Please don't take my comments as anti-Cameron ... I like him and think this is a great opportunity for him. At his age, I would have loved to have a similar position.
Perhaps part of the problem is with my personal bias. Being a high value classics collector myself, my first thought was 'yeah, right - no way he's got the experience to do that'. But... if my collecting expertise was moderns, then perhaps my first thought would have been completely different. I do believe that the skills and experience necessary to grade, screen for problems and authenticate high value classics are a bit different than the skills and experience required to differentiate between PR68Cam and PR70DCAM.
<< <i>Please don't take my comments as anti-Cameron ... I like him and think this is a great opportunity for him. At his age, I would have loved to have a similar position. >>
You may not mean them that way, but that's how these criticisms come across without tone and inflection, which can not be translated from text
Age should have nothing to do with it... but experience does... how long has Cameron been a serious collector/dealer? 8-9 years? Now, would you guys be this concerned with a 31 year old, who started collecting when he was 21, since you're making a big deal about age and all...
<< <i>Perhaps part of the problem is with my personal bias. Being a high value classics collector myself, my first thought was 'yeah, right - no way he's got the experience to do that'. >>
This is ICG. I don't think you have to worry much about the coins you collect ending up in their holders. And, if they did, they'd be there just about long enough for the buyer to reach for the nearest hammer.
<< <i>Perhaps part of the problem is with my personal bias. Being a high value classics collector myself, my first thought was 'yeah, right - no way he's got the experience to do that'. >>
This is ICG. I don't think you have to worry much about the coins you collect ending up in their holders. And, if they did, they'd be there just about long enough for the buyer to reach for the nearest hammer.
Russ, NCNE >>
Actually, snips are much easier with ICG slabs... you cut em much like PCGS slabs, except a little higher, above where the stacking piece starts... isn't a consistant crack, like PCGS, but it usually works
<< <i>Works fine for me, took less than five minutes to crack two of them the other day. >>
Two 1/2 minutes each is too long I was getting down to about a minute a piece, minute and a half on ones that didn't crack well, 2 1/2 minutes on stubburn ones...
<< <i>And exactly who are you accusing of back pedalling? >>
All who feel that Cameron doesn't have the ability to do the job because of his age. I could buy the regression in some of the threads that fell back on the "lack of experience" he MIGHT have.
But Age has nothing to do with talent or potential.
I'm just glad that ICG or NGC can spot talent and potential. The ones that really matter here.
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
Come off it, this has nothing to do with discrimination. My position is someone at 20-22 years old couldn't possibly have the experience necessary, and I don't care if it's Cameron or anyone else. As I said earlier, if this was someone who didn't post here you guys would be all over ICG. But because it's Cameron, hey they're great, let's send coins to them. And while you guys are at it, how about calling your congressmen and demanding the constitutional requirement for the president to be 35 years old be repealed.
<< <i>Instead of speculating whether Cam can do it as a grader why we don't simply save the date of 18 months from now and then discuss it at that time.
We will know much better by them including whether Cam has the stamina to grade coin 18 months in a row. Not many of us do.
Sorry, I type slow. Maybe some here missed the post below this or didn't read it the first time.
Camerons bio sort of reminded me of David Hall's, except that I think Cameron's is a little better FOR HIS AGE. I'm not sure if Camerons gone to college but even David Hall admitted he hadn't but made his way going "to the school of hard knocks (and you gotta respect that).
Although I'm sure Cameron has no immediate career goals to run for President (at least not until he turns 35), He probably would do a damn good job if he so chose that and attacked politics like he has devoted himself to numismatics. Rather than President, I would compare him to a finely tuned athelete who has been scouted out for the major leagues because of his drive, talent, and obvious potential (not to mention...ATTITUDE).
Now concerning AGE, I'm almost positive I've see QUITE a few "error" slabs those OLDER MORE EXPERIENCED guys have let slip by. And the older holdered slabs that people crack out and send in for upgrade; does that mean some old ...err...experienced guy screwed up and undergraded them in the past?
Anyone else here have a personal bio that can stand up to his, AT SUCH A YOUNG AGE (or even at your present age)? If so, maybe PCGS and NGC could use some fresh blood. The way things have sounded here on the forum lately, maybe a little fresh blood would keep the OLD ...err...more experienced guys on their toes!!
<<Cameron Kiefer, former YN of the Year & ANA Intern, joins ICG
On April 7, 2005, ICG—Independent Coin Grading of Englewood, Colorado—added Cameron Kiefer to its award-winning team of professional coin graders. Cameron is from Visalia, California and has been a coin collector since he was 11 years old. Additionally, he was a coin dealer for 7 years before joining ICG.
Cameron is a former Young Numismatist (YN) of the Year, the American Numismatic Association’s (ANA) highest award, given annually to the most outstanding numismatist 21 years of age, or younger. Past YNs of the Year include many of the hobby’s most distinguished researchers, catalogers, dealers and collectors.
Cameron was active in his local coin club for many years, having served in a number of positions, including Secretary, Vice-President and Editor of several publications. He also won an ANA internship, working in the ANA Money Museum, Library and Education Department. He has attended five ANA Summer Seminars as a student where he quickly gained the attention of his instructors for his discerning eye, attention to detail and ability to grade accurately and consistently.
During the 2005 ANA Summer Seminar he will be teaching Coin Grading with Don Bonser and Detection of Counterfeit and Altered Coins with J.P. Martin. Gail Baker, ANA’s Education Director, said of Cameron, “I’m thrilled that Cameron has agreed to teach both classes at the upcoming Summer Seminar. Besides being a terrific grader and authenticator, I know he’ll be a great teacher. He has the knowledge that few have and the ability to pass that knowledge on to his students. The students are going to love him.”
Keith Love, ICG’s Senior Grader, said of Cameron, “ICG is truly fortunate to have been able to add Cameron to our grading team. I know other grading services were considering him before we jumped in and got him.”
Cameron becomes ICG’s sixth grader, joining Love, J.P. Martin, Walt Armitage, Larry Wilson and Sue Berg. James Taylor, ICG’s President, said, “ICG has the most respected grading team in the industry. With classes, training videos and correspondence courses featuring ICG graders, no other grading team comes even remotely close to having taught coin grading and counterfeit detection to as many people as the ICG team. I’m glad that Cameron is immediately contributing to ICG’s commitment to education.” >> ----
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
<< <i>Come off it, this has nothing to do with discrimination. My position is someone at 20-22 years old couldn't possibly have the experience necessary, and I don't care if it's Cameron or anyone else. As I said earlier, if this was someone who didn't post here you guys would be all over ICG. But because it's Cameron, hey they're great, let's send coins to them. And while you guys are at it, how about calling your congressmen and demanding the constitutional requirement for the president to be 35 years old be repealed. >>
If it has NOTHING to do with discrimination, why do you keep going back to the same age stereotype? He's also teaching a class on counterfeit detection if you read through the entire message. I would -assume- he's fairly qualified if he's teaching a class on it, or fairly educated on the counterfeit field.
-Daniel
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Cameron does not work in a vacuum at ICG. There are at least 2 other graders backing up what his opinion is on a coin. If he's wrong, they won't hesitate to point it out. His grading skills were quite eye-openingly accurate (as I understand it) at the ANA and he raised more than a few eyebrows...not just at ICG mind you. >>
I'd like to steer this away from Cameron and speak in general. Again, I think the way ICG announced this was a mistake. A lot of people have talked about it privately in regards to a grading company hiring someone in their early 20s. It's not viewed as a good thing by many. I figured I would take some heat on this, and so be it, it's important in my opinion. We are all aware of ICG's reputation, and I think a lot of people don't really care about this because serious money coins are not bought sight unseen in ICG holders.
Let me put this another way. What would be the opinion if PCGS were to announce they just hired a 22 year old that we don't know? Would any of you be concerned? >>
<< <i>What would be the opinion if PCGS were to announce they just hired a 22 year old that we don't know? Would any of you be concerned? >>
No more concerned than I already am.
Russ, NCNE
If the person has the skills to grade multiple series, go for it. If the person hasn't/can't grade a certain series due to no experience with it (say, old gold or chain cents or whatnot), then someone else can grade and they can learn.
I don't get a rat's asp if the grader is in their 20s.
The only concern I would have for the age is that maybe they haven't had time to see/learn all the fake/counterfeit info. I think I would trust the grading (and, if I didn't, then I would go by my own grading anyway).
It's much better that Cam went into this with experience and then starts in a TPGS young than it is for him to be out there for 20+ years grading in his own coin shop and maybe wanting to "play the grading game with grades".
As it is, he can't submit so he has no reason to not be as accurate as possible. And, his grades get judged just like his colleagues' grades.
So, to put it in context of Cameron, I say "more power to ya!"
In context of a youthful grader, I say "age doesn't matter, skill does. If you doubt someone because of their age, then you will miss out on a lot".
If you have trouble with Cameron's grading, then that is understandable (as something to focus on....just using an example).
If you have trouble with his age, then I think it is an unbiased concern.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>The only concern I would have for the age is that maybe they haven't had time to see/learn all the fake/counterfeit info. I think I would trust the grading (and, if I didn't, then I would go by my own grading anyway). >>
Bingo. The ability to grade isn't the only concern as far as working for a grading company. People also must remember that they also certify authenticity. Being able to detect altered and counterfeit coins require a lot of experience.
<< <i>I would guess that if you can graduate with an MD at around that age, you could certainly learn to grade thousands of 2004 proof sets.
>>
Actually, ICG doesn't segregate their graders that way. All graders get a chance to grade virtually all types of coins. Truly exceptional or highly-counterfeited coins (good counterfeits) may have to go by J.P.'s desk first, though before going back out to the customer.
Keep those guys at ICG in line now, ya hear!!
Best wishes and good luck to Cameron ... what a great start in the industry!
<< <i>ICG has the most respected grading team in the industry >>
You have to wonder if they really believe this.
In addition, you said so yourself you don't buy ICG coins, so I don't get why in a post later on you said: I'm speaking in terms of being a buyer, especially if you buy expensive coins.
Honestly, if you can't semi-accurately grade a coin in an ICG holder, or if you can't recognize that it's clearly overgraded or undergraded(ha
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
I'm sorry, but I disagree with you on the experience. I just don't think someone in their early 20s has enough professional experience to be a professional grader. If they had hired him as a trainee that would be one thing, but the way they worded the release makes it sound like he's right up there with JP Martin. And again, I'm not directing this towards Cameron, but the owners of ICG. They are not going to gain market acceptability doing this. If this had been some other kid they hired that none of us knew, I doubt I would have spent all day defending my position through PMs and emails.
As I recall, NGC was talking to Cameron about the same time as ICG...
42/92
Perhaps part of the problem is with my personal bias. Being a high value classics collector myself, my first thought was 'yeah, right - no way he's got the experience to do that'. But... if my collecting expertise was moderns, then perhaps my first thought would have been completely different. I do believe that the skills and experience necessary to grade, screen for problems and authenticate high value classics are a bit different than the skills and experience required to differentiate between PR68Cam and PR70DCAM.
First of all, Cam is off to a good start!
I only want to know if Mr. Taylor wears his hat in the office every day!
We are assured that we will see how ICG and Cam is doing 18 months from now.
<< <i>Please don't take my comments as anti-Cameron ... I like him and think this is a great opportunity for him. At his age, I would have loved to have a similar position. >>
You may not mean them that way, but that's how these criticisms come across without tone and inflection, which can not be translated from text
Age should have nothing to do with it... but experience does... how long has Cameron been a serious collector/dealer? 8-9 years? Now, would you guys be this concerned with a 31 year old, who started collecting when he was 21, since you're making a big deal about age and all...
42/92
<< <i>Perhaps part of the problem is with my personal bias. Being a high value classics collector myself, my first thought was 'yeah, right - no way he's got the experience to do that'. >>
This is ICG. I don't think you have to worry much about the coins you collect ending up in their holders. And, if they did, they'd be there just about long enough for the buyer to reach for the nearest hammer.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>Perhaps part of the problem is with my personal bias. Being a high value classics collector myself, my first thought was 'yeah, right - no way he's got the experience to do that'. >>
This is ICG. I don't think you have to worry much about the coins you collect ending up in their holders. And, if they did, they'd be there just about long enough for the buyer to reach for the nearest hammer.
Russ, NCNE >>
Actually, snips are much easier with ICG slabs... you cut em much like PCGS slabs, except a little higher, above where the stacking piece starts... isn't a consistant crack, like PCGS, but it usually works
42/92
<< <i>I use the same thing for all slabs - a 5" C clamp. >>
Eh... really isn't that effective on ICG slabs... they don't have that *POP* like NGC slabs do when you vice them...
42/92
<< <i>Works fine for me, took less than five minutes to crack two of them the other day. >>
42/92
<< <i>If you want some real fun, try a SEGS slab. Too bad the quality of their grading doesn't match the quality of their slabs. >>
Have yet to meet a SEGS slab on the crackout battlefield... but I've become a fair expert at cracking ANACS, NGC, PCGS, and now ICG...
42/92
<< <i>Have yet to meet a SEGS slab on the crackout battlefield... but I've become a fair expert at cracking ANACS, NGC, PCGS, and now ICG... >>
All of those are a cakewalk compared to SEGS.
Russ, NCNE
---edited
Let me know if anyone else discriminates because of AGE and I'll add you to the vine.
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
-----
Proud Owner of
2 –DAMMIT BOY!!! ® Awards
<< <i>Thread got boring with all the back-pedalling.
---edited
Let me know if anyone else discriminates because of AGE and I'll add you to the vine. >>
I gotta agree!! Cameron is smart and has a keen eye!!
<< <i>And exactly who are you accusing of back pedalling? >>
All who feel that Cameron doesn't have the ability to do the job because of his age. I could buy the regression in some of the threads that fell back on the "lack of experience" he MIGHT have.
But Age has nothing to do with talent or potential.
I'm just glad that ICG or NGC can spot talent and potential. The ones that really matter here.
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
-----
Proud Owner of
2 –DAMMIT BOY!!! ® Awards
<< <i>Thread got boring with all the back-pedalling.
---edited
Let me know if anyone else discriminates because of AGE and I'll add you to the vine. >>
rofl.
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
<< <i>Hey Russ- could you easily make this coin look like the one in your sig? >>
No.
Russ, NCNE
We will know much better by them including whether Cam has the stamina to grade coin 18 months in a row. Not many of us do.
I wish Cam all the success.
<< <i>Instead of speculating whether Cam can do it as a grader why we don't simply save the date of 18 months from now and then discuss it at that time.
We will know much better by them including whether Cam has the stamina to grade coin 18 months in a row. Not many of us do.
I wish Cam all the success. >>
That is what I started this thread for!!
Camerons bio sort of reminded me of David Hall's, except that I think Cameron's is a little better FOR HIS AGE. I'm not sure if Camerons gone to college but even David Hall admitted he hadn't but made his way going "to the school of hard knocks (and you gotta respect that).
Although I'm sure Cameron has no immediate career goals to run for President (at least not until he turns 35), He probably would do a damn good job if he so chose that and attacked politics like he has devoted himself to numismatics. Rather than President, I would compare him to a finely tuned athelete who has been scouted out for the major leagues because of his drive, talent, and obvious potential (not to mention...ATTITUDE).
Now concerning AGE, I'm almost positive I've see QUITE a few "error" slabs those OLDER MORE EXPERIENCED guys have let slip by. And the older holdered slabs that people crack out and send in for upgrade; does that mean some old ...err...experienced guy screwed up and undergraded them in the past?
Anyone else here have a personal bio that can stand up to his, AT SUCH A YOUNG AGE (or even at your present age)? If so, maybe PCGS and NGC could use some fresh blood. The way things have sounded here on the forum lately, maybe a little fresh blood would keep the OLD ...err...more experienced guys on their toes!!
<<Cameron Kiefer, former YN of the Year & ANA Intern, joins ICG
On April 7, 2005, ICG—Independent Coin Grading of Englewood, Colorado—added Cameron Kiefer to its award-winning team of professional coin graders. Cameron is from Visalia, California and has been a coin collector since he was 11 years old. Additionally, he was a coin dealer for 7 years before joining ICG.
Cameron is a former Young Numismatist (YN) of the Year, the American Numismatic Association’s (ANA) highest award, given annually to the most outstanding numismatist 21 years of age, or younger. Past YNs of the Year include many of the hobby’s most distinguished researchers, catalogers, dealers and collectors.
Cameron was active in his local coin club for many years, having served in a number of positions, including Secretary, Vice-President and Editor of several publications. He also won an ANA internship, working in the ANA Money Museum, Library and Education Department. He has attended five ANA Summer Seminars as a student where he quickly gained the attention of his instructors for his discerning eye, attention to detail and ability to grade accurately and consistently.
During the 2005 ANA Summer Seminar he will be teaching Coin Grading with Don Bonser and Detection of Counterfeit and Altered Coins with J.P. Martin. Gail Baker, ANA’s Education Director, said of Cameron, “I’m thrilled that Cameron has agreed to teach both classes at the upcoming Summer Seminar. Besides being a terrific grader and authenticator, I know he’ll be a great teacher. He has the knowledge that few have and the ability to pass that knowledge on to his students. The students are going to love him.”
Keith Love, ICG’s Senior Grader, said of Cameron, “ICG is truly fortunate to have been able to add Cameron to our grading team. I know other grading services were considering him before we jumped in and got him.”
Cameron becomes ICG’s sixth grader, joining Love, J.P. Martin, Walt Armitage, Larry Wilson and Sue Berg. James Taylor, ICG’s President, said, “ICG has the most respected grading team in the industry. With classes, training videos and correspondence courses featuring ICG graders, no other grading team comes even remotely close to having taught coin grading and counterfeit detection to as many people as the ICG team. I’m glad that Cameron is immediately contributing to ICG’s commitment to education.” >>
----
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
-----
Proud Owner of
2 –DAMMIT BOY!!! ® Awards
<< <i>Come off it, this has nothing to do with discrimination. My position is someone at 20-22 years old couldn't possibly have the experience necessary, and I don't care if it's Cameron or anyone else. As I said earlier, if this was someone who didn't post here you guys would be all over ICG. But because it's Cameron, hey they're great, let's send coins to them. And while you guys are at it, how about calling your congressmen and demanding the constitutional requirement for the president to be 35 years old be repealed. >>
If it has NOTHING to do with discrimination, why do you keep going back to the same age stereotype? He's also teaching a class on counterfeit detection if you read through the entire message. I would -assume- he's fairly qualified if he's teaching a class on it, or fairly educated on the counterfeit field.
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
Have fun babe!
True success is having a job you love. Most people are just shuffling through life.
Cammie, again,