Well I can say from experience you don't necissarily have to be old to have "good" coins. Within the last few months I've purchased an MS 2.50 Indian and a 1916-D Merc in G6 with full rims.
-Daniel
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
I think it is great for Cam to have such an opportunity. He has worked dilligently and with a focus and intensity that shows professional maturity. I do not think ICG will be the end of the line for Cam, more likely a stepping stone in his numismatic career.
I don't want to argue or get in the middle of this flame war but would like to make a few quick points to clarify some things.
I am 23 years old, not 21. I started working for a local shop on Saturday and Sunday at the age of 16, not 14.
I did go to college and got my Associattes Degree. I could have gone further but was hired full time by another coin company where I worked for three years.
Regarding the age of graders: Many of the top graders today started young. Rick Montgomery (NGC) started at ANACS at the age of 18, Keith Love (now ICG) started at PCGS at 24, Ryan Carrol started at PCGS at 19 (just a few years ago guys), J.P. Martin started @ ANACS in his early 20's (I forget the age), Don Bonser started @ ANACS at 21....the list goes on.
I love my job at ICG. I am not a finalizer but a coin grader. I get to grade many cool coins and learn from some of the best graders in the hobby. I couldn;'t ask for a better dream job. ICG did fly me out and I graded for 5 days before I got an offer. NGC at the same time was talking to me and wanting to hire me.
I hope this clarifies some of the concerns expressed in this thread.
As you know, my point in this thread was not to attack you, we've spoken many times and I like you. I think with the experience, you will be a top numismatist by time you're 30.
My complaint is the way ICG presented your hiring. I simply do not believe that someone as young as you (now we know it's 23) is qualified to be a professional grader. In my opinion, one should have at least ten years of hands on experience trading coins professionally to qualify as a professional grader.
You mention a lot of people in your post, but as I recall, they were hired as interns, or apprentices, before they were moved up to graders after hands on experience.
Here you go Cam. Now you fit the image of an old...err...more experienced coin grader!!
Good luck on you new job and have fun!!
P.S. I know you've learned a lot here on the forums as I'm learning something here every day as well. Even learning from old grumps like the guy in the post above me (who I do have respect for his opinions believe it or not). Sometimes we just gotta poke a little fun at each other around here now and then!!
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
Eric, I respectfully disagree. You feel it is 10 years, but timing is subjective. If a person has a knack and learns quickly and has a great eye, then there is no timeline on this.
Jonesy, did you have an idea of what your thread would do, or do you just dislike Cam? You had to have known that the title and the post would do this.....
<< <i>Here you go Cam. Now you fit the image of an old...err...more experienced coin grader!!
Good luck on you new job and have fun!!
P.S. I know you've learned a lot here on the forums as I'm learning something here every day as well. Even learning from old grumps like the guy in the post above me (who I do have respect for his opinions believe it or not). Sometimes we just gotta poke a little fun at each other around here now and then!!
<< <i> In my opinion, one should have at least ten years of hands on experience trading coins professionally to qualify as a professional grader. >>
In my opinion, one should receive a paycheck from a grading service to qualify as a professional grader.
<< <i>You mention a lot of people in your post, but as I recall, they were hired as interns, or apprentices, before they were moved up to graders after hands on experience. >>
<< <i>Many of the top graders today started young. Rick Montgomery (NGC) started at ANACS at the age of 18, Keith Love (now ICG) started at PCGS at 24, Ryan Carrol started at PCGS at 19 (just a few years ago guys), J.P. Martin started @ ANACS in his early 20's (I forget the age), Don Bonser started @ ANACS at 21....the list goes on. >>
David Hall--->
<< <i>Ryan Carroll of Heritage is a world class grader and I think he's 23 or 24. Michael Wriethe of our (edit...PCGS) grading staff is an absolutely world class grader and I think he's 25 or so. >>
(Mental note...win the lottery, pull these guys in together, corner the market on the coin grading empire, make more money than GOD...err...Bill Gates)
HEY BROTHER...CAN YOU SPARE A DIME...err...BUCK??
(OR BETTER YET...MAYBE A BACKER)
HEY LAURA...I GOT AN IDEA!!
-----
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
<< <i>Eric, I respectfully disagree. You feel it is 10 years, but timing is subjective. If a person has a knack and learns quickly and has a great eye, then there is no timeline on this.
Jonesy, did you have an idea of what your thread would do, or do you just dislike Cam? You had to have known that the title and the post would do this..... >>
I like Cameron very much. I consider him a friend. I posted this thread to praise him. I had no idea it would turn into a flame war. I'd trust Cameron to grade my coins any day. I respect Cameron as much as anyone on these boards!! Again I'd like to congratulate Cameron on his new job. I know it is the beginning of his dream job.
<< <i>There's alway going to be negativity in this world and sometimes it just doesn't know when it should be quite and let positive rule the moment. >>
Why is it that any time someone has a different opinion, the other party is being "negative".
I believe my position is valid, and it has nothing to do with Cameron. I just don't believe someone in their early 20s has gained enough experience to sit in judgment of coins where the smallest error could cost someone many thousands of dollars.
As TDN pointed out earlier in this thread, this isn't an issue grading modern stuff. But when you get into early US material, a mistake could be very costly.
<< <i>There's alway going to be negativity in this world and sometimes it just doesn't know when it should be quite and let positive rule the moment. >>
Why is it that any time someone has a different opinion, the other party is being "negative".
I believe my position is valid, and it has nothing to do with Cameron. I just don't believe someone in their early 20s has gained enough experience to sit in judgment of coins where the smallest error could cost someone many thousands of dollars.
As TDN pointed out earlier in this thread, this isn't an issue grading modern stuff. But when you get into early US material, a mistake could be very costly. >>
Do you honestly believe that Cameron is, or will be, the only one grading coins at ICG? His will be one of at least 3 opinions. If they all miss it then obviously there's a bigger problem.
My point here is that this thread was intended to congratulate Cameron.
Maybe your concerns about age compared to grading confidence should have been in a new thread ?
I'm sure glad there wasn't a PCGS message board around when I was 23 so people who didn't know me could tell me how much I didn't know. I might have believed them!
Cameron's decade of curiosity, knowledge seeking, and hard work at conventions and seminars have paid off with a nice professional opportunity. Knowing him, he'll learn everything he can while he's there. I suspect ICG will be very pleased with his work ethic and sincere interest in learning more.
<< <i>I'm sure glad there wasn't a PCGS message board around when I was 23 so people who didn't know me could tell me how much I didn't know. I might have believed them!
Cameron's decade of curiosity, knowledge seeking, and hard work at conventions and seminars have paid off with a nice professional opportunity. Knowing him, he'll learn everything he can while he's there. I suspect ICG will be very pleased with his work ethic and sincere interest in learning more. >>
<< <i>Obviously Cameron is a very talented individual and ICG will benefit greatly from his skill and dedication to numismatics.
Cameron, congratulations on all of your achievements and best wishes for a great career! >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>No, someone started off in the direction of telling me what I should or should not post in a thread here. >>
no, not really. someone asked the question if maybe a discussion about confidence in a grader, because of his or her age, might be better suited for a new thread.
i don't believe anyone "told" anyone else what they should or shouldn't post. i think they were just asking for a little respect for the original thread authors intentions.
i believe a topic of graders ages and abilities, without mentioning names, would be a great way of expressing opinions and experiences.
<< <i>No offense, but seriously, how old is Cameron? And how many years does he have experience in grading? I'm sorry guys, I just can't get excited about this. Companies offering grading services should use graders with many years experience in the industry. >>
I hear there's a guy named Hager who has "many years experience in the industry......"
If you guys keep talking it up about Cameron; he may not want to go out to lunch with me any more at break-time if he thinks his celebrity status puts him way above lowly li'l ol' me!
For those who think there must be an arbitrary number of years like 10 to be professional grader, it is not just grading years an employer like this will consider but also their ability to work with others on a team, loyalty, potential, and a positive attitude. If they hire a 10 year experienced grader that is an inconsiderate jerk to others and makes other employees in the workplace miserable, they don't get hired. In other words, hard headed cranks looking to bully others and not be innovative don't get very far in an organization of pros. They might do well as a loner but not in a successful organization. Unless it is the WWF! Cameron is not the senior grader here . A baseball analogy may help the old codgers with this. He is not the first pitcher in a five man rotation. He is the fifth pitcher or a pitcher in Triple A doing understudy to get in the majors. It is the recognized potential for long term talent that has been snared here. He will be coached well and not put in situations he can't handle. It will be a chance of lifetime opportunity to get that "10 years experience" so coveted. Every and all professional graders start out with year #1, then year #2,and so on. You can't get "10 years grading experience" by skipping the first 9!
I admired the comment early that some old experienced graders of more than 10 years have missed a few too. Coin grading all the time must be a grind. Blurred eyes, bad back, poor health always leads to poor mental performance. Cameron will not have that burden.
Cameron, you made a very wise choice! As you know, the people all around you had plenty of experience "at the big two" and believe there is a better way to skin this cat of delivering consistent, accurate, non-biased coin grades for the collecting and numismatic community. Consider this your first lesson in business that there all always doubting Thomases and you can use that as an strong incentive to succeed. Steve
Satisfaction lies in the effort, not in the attainment. Full effort is full victory. -Gandhi
Cameron is not the senior grader here . A baseball analogy may help the old codgers with this. He is not the first pitcher in a five man rotation. He is the fifth pitcher or a pitcher in Triple A doing understudy to get in the majors. It is the recognized potential for long term talent that has been snared here. He will be coached well and not put in situations he can't handle. It will be a chance of lifetime opportunity to get that "10 years experience" so coveted. Every and all professional graders start out with year #1, then year #2,and so on.
You mention a lot of people in your post, but as I recall, they were hired as interns, or apprentices, before they were moved up to graders after hands on experience.
Must have been the interns and apprentices at PCGS that certified all those Micro-O Morgans.
Congrats on the great position Cameron, you've come a long way in a short time.
Comments
<< <i>Well, since you want to press the issue with Cameron, I would love to see what he was buying and selling as a "dealer" at 14 years old. >>
So would I, but unfortunately for me, everybody else seems to get all the really good coins!!
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
-----
Proud Owner of
2 –DAMMIT BOY!!! ® Awards
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
I am 23 years old, not 21. I started working for a local shop on Saturday and Sunday at the age of 16, not 14.
I did go to college and got my Associattes Degree. I could have gone further but was hired full time by another coin company where I worked for three years.
Regarding the age of graders: Many of the top graders today started young. Rick Montgomery (NGC) started at ANACS at the age of 18, Keith Love (now ICG) started at PCGS at 24, Ryan Carrol started at PCGS at 19 (just a few years ago guys), J.P. Martin started @ ANACS in his early 20's (I forget the age), Don Bonser started @ ANACS at 21....the list goes on.
I love my job at ICG. I am not a finalizer but a coin grader. I get to grade many cool coins and learn from some of the best graders in the hobby. I couldn;'t ask for a better dream job. ICG did fly me out and I graded for 5 days before I got an offer. NGC at the same time was talking to me and wanting to hire me.
I hope this clarifies some of the concerns expressed in this thread.
Cameron Kiefer
As you know, my point in this thread was not to attack you, we've spoken many times and I like you. I think with the experience, you will be a top numismatist by time you're 30.
My complaint is the way ICG presented your hiring. I simply do not believe that someone as young as you (now we know it's 23) is qualified to be a professional grader. In my opinion, one should have at least ten years of hands on experience trading coins professionally to qualify as a professional grader.
You mention a lot of people in your post, but as I recall, they were hired as interns, or apprentices, before they were moved up to graders after hands on experience.
Good luck on you new job and have fun!!
P.S. I know you've learned a lot here on the forums as I'm learning something here every day as well. Even learning from old grumps like the guy in the post above me (who I do have respect for his opinions believe it or not). Sometimes we just gotta poke a little fun at each other around here now and then!!
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
-----
Proud Owner of
2 –DAMMIT BOY!!! ® Awards
You feel it is 10 years, but timing is subjective. If a person has a knack and learns quickly and has a great eye, then there is no timeline on this.
Jonesy, did you have an idea of what your thread would do, or do you just dislike Cam? You had to have known that the title and the post would do this.....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Here you go Cam. Now you fit the image of an old...err...more experienced coin grader!!
Good luck on you new job and have fun!!
P.S. I know you've learned a lot here on the forums as I'm learning something here every day as well. Even learning from old grumps like the guy in the post above me (who I do have respect for his opinions believe it or not). Sometimes we just gotta poke a little fun at each other around here now and then!!
I gotta hand it to you, that's funny.
Q&A
Seems David agrees with those of you who don't think age is a problem.
I still respectfully disagree.
<< <i> In my opinion, one should have at least ten years of hands on experience trading coins professionally to qualify as a professional grader. >>
In my opinion, one should receive a paycheck from a grading service to qualify as a professional grader.
<< <i>You mention a lot of people in your post, but as I recall, they were hired as interns, or apprentices, before they were moved up to graders after hands on experience. >>
Just plain wrong.
<< <i>Many of the top graders today started young. Rick Montgomery (NGC) started at ANACS at the age of 18, Keith Love (now ICG) started at PCGS at 24, Ryan Carrol started at PCGS at 19 (just a few years ago guys), J.P. Martin started @ ANACS in his early 20's (I forget the age), Don Bonser started @ ANACS at 21....the list goes on. >>
David Hall--->
<< <i>Ryan Carroll of Heritage is a world class grader and I think he's 23 or 24. Michael Wriethe of our (edit...PCGS) grading staff is an absolutely world class grader and I think he's 25 or so. >>
HEY BROTHER...CAN YOU SPARE A DIME...err...BUCK??
HEY LAURA...I GOT AN IDEA!!
-----
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
-----
Proud Owner of
2 –DAMMIT BOY!!! ® Awards
<< <i>Eric, I respectfully disagree.
You feel it is 10 years, but timing is subjective. If a person has a knack and learns quickly and has a great eye, then there is no timeline on this.
Jonesy, did you have an idea of what your thread would do, or do you just dislike Cam? You had to have known that the title and the post would do this..... >>
I like Cameron very much. I consider him a friend. I posted this thread to praise him. I had no idea it would turn into a flame war. I'd trust Cameron to grade my coins any day. I respect Cameron as much as anyone on these boards!! Again I'd like to congratulate Cameron on his new job. I know it is the beginning of his dream job.
Too bad this thread had to be tainted into something it shouldn't have been.
I think the spirit of the original poster was to praise Cameron for his success, and offer others the opportunity to express their praise also.
I have interacted with Cameron a few times, purchased coins from him, and found him to be an energetic and very intelligent individual.
There's alway going to be negativity in this world and sometimes it just doesn't know when it should be quite and let positive rule the moment.
Well, except for the Bobsey Twin MS70 thingy - but that's warranted!
<< <i>There's alway going to be negativity in this world and sometimes it just doesn't know when it should be quite and let positive rule the moment. >>
Why is it that any time someone has a different opinion, the other party is being "negative".
I believe my position is valid, and it has nothing to do with Cameron. I just don't believe someone in their early 20s has gained enough experience to sit in judgment of coins where the smallest error could cost someone many thousands of dollars.
As TDN pointed out earlier in this thread, this isn't an issue grading modern stuff. But when you get into early US material, a mistake could be very costly.
<< <i>
<< <i>There's alway going to be negativity in this world and sometimes it just doesn't know when it should be quite and let positive rule the moment. >>
Why is it that any time someone has a different opinion, the other party is being "negative".
I believe my position is valid, and it has nothing to do with Cameron. I just don't believe someone in their early 20s has gained enough experience to sit in judgment of coins where the smallest error could cost someone many thousands of dollars.
As TDN pointed out earlier in this thread, this isn't an issue grading modern stuff. But when you get into early US material, a mistake could be very costly. >>
Do you honestly believe that Cameron is, or will be, the only one grading coins at ICG? His will be one of at least 3 opinions.
If they all miss it then obviously there's a bigger problem.
My point here is that this thread was intended to congratulate Cameron.
Maybe your concerns about age compared to grading confidence should have been in a new thread ?
Cameron,
Congratulations!
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
It was?
dedication to numismatics.
Cameron, congratulations on all of your achievements and best wishes for a great career!
U.S. Nickels Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
U.S. Dimes Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
<< <i>My point here is that this thread was intended to congratulate Cameron. >>
We already had one of those a few weeks ago.
<< <i>Maybe your concerns about age compared to grading confidence should have been in a new thread ? >>
Who made up the rules as to what could be posted in what thread?
<< <i>
<< <i>My point here is that this thread was intended to congratulate Cameron. >>
We already had one of those a few weeks ago.
<< <i>Maybe your concerns about age compared to grading confidence should have been in a new thread ? >>
Who made up the rules as to what could be posted in what thread? >>
Geez Eric
Cameron's decade of curiosity, knowledge seeking, and hard work at conventions and seminars have paid off with a nice professional opportunity. Knowing him, he'll learn everything he can while he's there. I suspect ICG will be very pleased with his work ethic and sincere interest in learning more.
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
<< <i>I'm sure glad there wasn't a PCGS message board around when I was 23 so people who didn't know me could tell me how much I didn't know. I might have believed them!
Cameron's decade of curiosity, knowledge seeking, and hard work at conventions and seminars have paid off with a nice professional opportunity. Knowing him, he'll learn everything he can while he's there. I suspect ICG will be very pleased with his work ethic and sincere interest in learning more. >>
<< <i>Obviously Cameron is a very talented individual and ICG will benefit greatly from his skill and
dedication to numismatics.
Cameron, congratulations on all of your achievements and best wishes for a great career!
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This isn't going to change things as far as ICG is concerned. They weren't taken seriously before, and that isn't going to change.
I have a right to my opinion, and I'm sticking by it.
<< <i>No, someone started off in the direction of telling me what I should or should not post in a thread here. >>
no, not really. someone asked the question if maybe a discussion about confidence in a grader, because of his or her age, might be better suited for a new thread.
i don't believe anyone "told" anyone else what they should or shouldn't post. i think they were just asking for a little respect for the original thread authors intentions.
i believe a topic of graders ages and abilities, without mentioning names, would be a great way of expressing opinions and experiences.
I think this has been hashed out every which way. No one has changed their opinions, so it's time to move on.
<< <i>I've posted several times that this isn't about Cameron. And I don't see the need for a separate thread at this point.
I think this has been hashed out every which way. No one has changed their opinions, so it's time to move on. >>
oh, so now you're basically telling me not to post anymore to this thread ?
you crack me up dude !
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Don't you have some "nursing"...errrrr "doctoring" to do little boy?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Yeah right.
You can have it ER
on second thought, no, it's mine.
I am THREAD KILLER®©™
<< <i>No offense, but seriously, how old is Cameron? And how many years does he have experience in grading? I'm sorry guys, I just can't get excited about this. Companies offering grading services should use graders with many years experience in the industry. >>
I hear there's a guy named Hager who has "many years experience in the industry......"
Cameron, are you sure you know who your father is?
Well, at least he isn't looking like J.P.
122/123
John Reich Collectors Society
Capped Bust Dimes
Don't let the whiners get you down.
I've known plenty of old time dealers with tired eyes who have many years experience grading ...............inaccurately.
I'd trust a set of young eyes with a few years experience grading accurately anyday.
Grading coins isn't brain surgery. I'm sure a smart guy with enthusiam could learn it well in half the time he's been at it.
Cameron is not the senior grader here . A baseball analogy may help the old codgers with this. He is not the first pitcher in a five man rotation. He is the fifth pitcher or a pitcher in Triple A doing understudy to get in the majors. It is the recognized potential for long term talent that has been snared here. He will be coached well and not put in situations he can't handle. It will be a chance of lifetime opportunity to get that "10 years experience" so coveted. Every and all professional graders start out with year #1, then year #2,and so on. You can't get "10 years grading experience" by skipping the first 9!
I admired the comment early that some old experienced graders of more than 10 years have missed a few too.
Coin grading all the time must be a grind. Blurred eyes, bad back, poor health always leads to poor mental performance. Cameron will not have that burden.
Cameron, you made a very wise choice! As you know, the people all around you had plenty of experience "at the big two" and believe there is a better way to skin this cat of delivering consistent, accurate, non-biased coin grades for the collecting and numismatic community. Consider this your first lesson in business that there all always doubting Thomases and you can use that as an strong incentive to succeed. Steve
Must have been the interns and apprentices at PCGS that certified all those Micro-O Morgans.
Congrats on the great position Cameron, you've come a long way in a short time.