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Here's your chance to show everyone that you're a grading genius - which is the AU58 and which is th

coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
One of the two 1850 Liberty Double Eagles below has been graded AU58 by a major grading company. The other has been graded MS61 by the same company.

Which is which and please let us know what you base your conclusions on? No one should feel ANY pressure, since this should be a slam dunk exercise.image

image

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Comments

  • kieferscoinskieferscoins Posts: 10,017 ✭
    Top MS-61

    Bottom AU-58.

    Cameron Kiefer
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭
    That one.
  • FrattLawFrattLaw Posts: 3,290 ✭✭
    Top MS61

    Bottom AU58

    image

    Michael
  • kieferscoinskieferscoins Posts: 10,017 ✭
    The grading genius already got it.image

    Cameron Kiefer
  • JrGMan2004JrGMan2004 Posts: 7,557 ✭
    Top MS-61
    Bottom AU58

    You can kinda see in the scans the almost lack of luster in the bottom one, though it has much less dings in the fields than the MS-61. If it had that full luster, I would guess it would grade MS-63, but I'm not a grading genius, just learning to be one =D
    -George
    42/92
  • FrattLawFrattLaw Posts: 3,290 ✭✭


    << <i>The grading genius already got it >>



    You didn't notice my winky? And by the way, Mr. Grading Genius, are you signed up for the "World Series of Grading?"

    Michael
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    bottom 58. I got a 50% chance at being a grading geeneous.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    I hope that the rest of the respondents (edited to add: other than JrGMan2004) do better at following the proper procedures :

    << <i>...and please let us know what you base your conclusions on? >>

    image
  • DHeathDHeath Posts: 8,472 ✭✭✭
    The top coin is MS and the lower AU. The lower coin, although it has what appears to be discoloration in all the right places to look like wear is a much nice coin than 61 based on contact marks. I'd grade it AU-63. If the first coin were AU, I'd likely limit it's grade to AU-53 based on the bag marks.
    Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers
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  • ClankeyeClankeye Posts: 3,928 ✭
    Bottom 61, which makes the top 58.

    Cheek hit on the bottom one qualifies it for a 61, but takes it out of the running for a 58.

    That is the opinion of a certified grading genius. A man so respected for his ability to separate the gems from the POS' that David Hall himself once said "Yeah... Clankeye... I guess."


    Clankeye
    Brevity is the soul of wit. --William Shakespeare
  • FrattLawFrattLaw Posts: 3,290 ✭✭


    << <i>I hope that the rest of the respondents do better at following the proper procedures : >>



    I just cheated off the grading genius's response! image

    Michael
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    I am on my laptop so I don't have a good picture to go off of, but the top coin looks AU to me because of the rub in the hair in front of the liberty band. The bottom coins look like I would imagine a 61 to look like, ms strike but a lot of hits. I can say this because I know zippo about grading gold, hopefully I will learn something.
  • cosmicdebriscosmicdebris Posts: 12,332 ✭✭✭
    The top coin is the 61. Why look at the hair. On the second one you can see it is not as defined and it shows some rub.

    P.S. I responded before I read or even looked at the other replies.
    Bill

    image

    09/07/2006
  • XpipedreamRXpipedreamR Posts: 8,059 ✭✭
    I think the second one is AU because it just looks a little worn on the high spots.
  • melikecoinsmelikecoins Posts: 1,154 ✭✭
    Top Au58
    Bottm MS61


    Glen
    I don't buy slabs I make them
  • JeffinMichJeffinMich Posts: 438
    Top - AU58
    Bottom MS-61

    Reason - bottom coin looks too baggy to be anything better than MS-61....top coins looks better than a 61, so it must be the AU-58 with some rub. And of course I know nothing about grading gold. image
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Top MS-61

    Bottom AU-58

    BUT I would not grade either one Unc. There is too much going on in the fields of both pieces.

    The top gets the MS-61 because it shows about 90% of its mint luster. The lower piece is duller.

    To me a low grade Unc. in the ideal world has full luster, but lots of marks. Given that as I collector I'd sooner own one of these coins than a banged up MS-60.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • KollectorKingKollectorKing Posts: 4,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    top ms 61, bottom au58, although I like the bottom one better - a classic case of an MS with slight rub on ms liberty's band above "Liberty."
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's the same type of $20 gold from my collection. This piece is an NGC AU-58.

    image
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭
    both grades are overgrades, so i'd say neither is either.

    K S
  • BigMooseBigMoose Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭
    Coinguy1,
    the top coin is AU58-the luster is impaired. The bottom coin is the MS61, baggy but appears to have full, unimpaired luster.
    TomT-1794

    Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    DorkCarl, if you can't give either of those coins an AU-58, I'd say you are one tough customer. You should see some of the stuff that the services tried to pass as MS-61 or AU-58 years ago. They looked like they had been used a surface for a track meet.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,688 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mark, I'll try to offend everybody here.

    First of all, I am not familiar with the series. But, the bottom one is the AU because I detect wear on both of the eagle's wingtips (reverse), and notice slight wear on Miss Liberty's hair on the AU coin.

    I would like to add that I do not like either coin due to the numerous contact marks.
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  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Top 61
    Bot 58

    1850 $20 is tough because of the typical mushy strike. BTW, I would be very hesitant to buy one right now. Who knows how many AU and MS examples were on the SS Republic?image
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Elcont...I am offended by your remark! Let's go to Russ's house and rumble!
    image
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,820 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I would like to add that I do not like either coin due to the numerous contact marks. >>



    Both coins are well above average when it comes to contact marks for these early $20 gold pieces. These coins were large, soft and heavy, (They weigh more than a silver dollar) and they seldom put away by 19th century collectors because of the high face value. It is for those reasons that these pieces had been so hard to find in Choice to Gem Mint State until the shipwreck coins got into numismatic circulation. These coins were stored and transported in bags, and since they were not stored in government vaults for 100 years like the Morgan dollars, they got lots of bag marks.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭
    Bottom AU-58. Looks like a very light dull area from temple to chin which makes me think light circulation. Rev pic is slightly out of focus.
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  • BikingnutBikingnut Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭✭
    Based on contact marks, the top would be AU58. But based on wear, the bottom would be the 58. Too hard to say.
    US Navy CWO3 retired. 12/81-09/04

    Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
  • kieferscoinskieferscoins Posts: 10,017 ✭


    << <i>and please let us know what you base your conclusions on >>



    Why? at the services you don't explain why you grade. You punch in the grade and that's it.

    Cameron Kiefer
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    "<< and please let us know what you base your conclusions on >>"

    << <i>Why? at the services you don't explain why you grade. You punch in the grade and that's it. >>

    Cameron - because the author of this thread requested it.image And, more importantly, if anything is to be learned from threads like this, it will be because explanations and reasoning are given and not merely because numbers are assigned.
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭


    << <i>DorkCarl, if you can't give either of those coins an AU-58, I'd say you are one tough customer. You should see some of the stuff that the services tried to pass as MS-61 or AU-58 years ago. They looked like they had been used a surface for a track meet. >>

    hey billjones, here's my take on it. the WORST grading ever done by pcgs/ngc is in early copper. they are far too often off by 15, 20, yes i said TWENTY points in grade. and that's commmercial grade, not eac! but the second worst grading these "services" do is in high-grade gold, & you know it. if i ever were to bid on high-grade gold sight-unseen, i would take FIVE POINTS off every grade across the board. that's how far off i think they OFTEN are. so imo, i'd bid on those two coins as au-53 & au-55.

    but to coinguy1's point, most likely, the baggy coin is the ms-61 (slab grade) & the less baggy 1 is the au-58.

    another absurdity of plastic grades. again, NEITHER coin should commercial grade above au-55.

    K S
  • relayerrelayer Posts: 10,570 ✭

    The bottom coin is Marty's
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  • greghansengreghansen Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭
    Top AU58
    Bottom MS61

    To my eye, the top coin shows much more of what I would call 'circulation strikes', i.e. small superficial scratches in the field typical of circulation wear and tear. The bottom coin, although showing bigger hits, appear more bag like rather than from circulation. Also, I think I can see the hint of 'cartwheel luster' on the bottom coin, whereas the top coin is more of a 'flat' reflection indicating to me that the flow lines have been interfered with by circulation. Thats my two cents worth.

    Edited to add: Looking at the third surface (rims) there appear to be small dings to the top coin...i.e. slide marks or hits, again common for circulation type hits. The rims of the bottom coin look unassaulted to me. With this observation I am now about 98% sure of my ranking and fully open to ridicule and derision!

    Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum

  • paigowjohnnypaigowjohnny Posts: 4,257 ✭
    Bottom is 58...slight rub on "LIBERTY"
  • CarsonCityGoldCarsonCityGold Posts: 1,856 ✭
    Top AU 58, Bottom MS 61. Ever so slight wear on the curls below the ear. I personally think both have seen some circulation. My guess is both are NGC Slabs.
    My Carson City Gold Set



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  • Catch22Catch22 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭
    I can't tell. They are similar to the extent that I wouldn't put a premium on either one. If offered for sale at the same price, I would choose the bottom coin as it looks to have a bit more natural looking luster in the fields.


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  • clackamasclackamas Posts: 5,615 ✭
    Top MS61 - Luster looks Mint and the marks would be consistant with MS61
    Bottom AU58 - Luster missing in places and the marks are fewer (if the coin was MS it may be a 62)
  • DRGDRG Posts: 817 ✭
    Top MS61 Baggy but no rub.

    Bottom AU58 Very light rub (less bag marks but rub makes it AU).
    (PAST) OWNER #1 SBA$ REGISTRY COLLECTOIN
  • mdwoodsmdwoods Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭
    I can't tell from the picture and doubt if I could tell if the coins were in front of me. Unless I could see the label. image

    Crap, I had label spelled right the first time.
    National Register Of Big Trees

    We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The point here might be that there is often little difference between the grades AU-58 and MS-61 or 62. Many "Mint State" coins with numbers of less than "63" on them are sliders. Sadly even some with "63" on them are slides. image
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • LAWMANLAWMAN Posts: 1,274 ✭✭
    Top 61
    Bottom 58

    Look for the wear on the high points on Liberty's head thing and on the thing around the lower part of the eagle on both sides (articulate about this, ain't I?)
    DSW
  • LAWMANLAWMAN Posts: 1,274 ✭✭
    Yeah, the semi-circular things that hold up the shield on the eagle's breast on the reverse, MS 61, the e pluribus unum is clearer than on the AU58, bottom.
    DSW
  • CalGoldCalGold Posts: 2,608 ✭✭
    I will guess that the first coin is au. The large nicks in the second coin have a sharp knife like edge whereas the marks on the first coin seem have been rubbed down a bit.

    CG
  • cosmicdebriscosmicdebris Posts: 12,332 ✭✭✭
    How much longer until we know?
    Bill

    image

    09/07/2006
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    Results will be posted Tuesday. But, it is already apparent from the lack of a strong consensus, that not everyone here is a grading genius. And, that comes as both a shock and major disappointment to me.image

  • cosmicdebriscosmicdebris Posts: 12,332 ✭✭✭
    That's a long way away.
    Bill

    image

    09/07/2006
  • ARCOARCO Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would be lying my A$$ off if I dared say I could tell any difference between the two. On Gold from AU58 to MS61 is there any real noticeable difference without an electron microscope?

    Whichever is which I would take the AU58 all day long.

    Tyler
  • jeffnpcbjeffnpcb Posts: 1,943 ✭
    ? They both appear AU or less to me!
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  • orevilleoreville Posts: 12,148 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bottom coin: major and uneven discoloration through the coin. The luster looks strong in the protected areas but non-existant elsewhere, rub is minimal but the luster looks impaired. Lots of baggy marks as usual for the low mint state but not well received in upper AU grades. A low end AU-58 to me, at best.

    Top coin: luster more even but not great. Cheeks not bad but fields very baggy. But don't see any wear despite the poor strike. 1850's despite the first year of issue for circulation were not great struck coins. I would have graded this more of a MS-60.

    So the top has to be the MS coin and the bottom, an AU coin.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • MadMartyMadMarty Posts: 16,697 ✭✭✭
    Top AU58
    Bottom MS61

    With all the AU58s I have racked up, I should know. I just picked the coin I thought looked the best and it MUST be the AU58!image
    It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!

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