@CaptHenway said:
Will the 1870-S $3 straight grade?
Straight graded AU-50.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I have photos of pretty much everything.
Been a handful of times just this year.
It's a little bit mind melting every. single. time.
Now I'm going to have to go this weekend again lol.
Here's a nice sample of the collection for those who can't make it before it goes...
I should probably do different nothing but photos thread.
Warning 17 sweet images ahead...
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
Will the 1870-S $3 straight grade?
Straight graded AU-50.
What shocked me was the Amazonian proof gold - when I saw the coins at the exhibit I had thought for sure they would grade cleaned with all of those hairlines and the halos around the stars. At least that is what I remember.
Perhaps they straight graded the 1870-S $3 because the graffiti is well known, the buyer is very unlikely to not know it is there and the grade really doesn't matter for the coin.
@CaptHenway said:
Will the 1870-S $3 straight grade?
Straight graded AU-50.
What shocked me was the Amazonian proof gold - when I saw the coins at the exhibit I had thought for sure they would grade cleaned with all of those hairlines and the halos around the stars. At least that is what I remember.
Perhaps they straight graded the 1870-S $3 because the graffiti is well known, the buyer is very unlikely to not know it is there and the grade really doesn't matter for the coin.
So the problems were just wished away into the cornfield?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Haven't been able to go since the end of June.
Darn.
Memories...
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
@CaptHenway said:
Will the 1870-S $3 straight grade?
Straight graded AU-50.
What shocked me was the Amazonian proof gold - when I saw the coins at the exhibit I had thought for sure they would grade cleaned with all of those hairlines and the halos around the stars. At least that is what I remember.
Perhaps they straight graded the 1870-S $3 because the graffiti is well known, the buyer is very unlikely to not know it is there and the grade really doesn't matter for the coin.
So the problems were just wished away into the cornfield?
Based on what I saw, I see no evidence to the contrary.
Perhaps they straight graded the 1870-S $3 because the graffiti is well known, the buyer is very unlikely to not know it is there and the grade really doesn't matter for the coin.
So the problems were just wished away into the cornfield?
Based on what I saw, I see no evidence to the contrary.
Apparently there is some debate among knowledgeable numismatists about whether the “893” etched into the reverse of the 70-S $3 is mint made or PMD.
.893 matches the fineness of Feather River gold that was assayed at the Mint at around the same time. I believe John Dannreuther has expressed the opinion that it was mint made, and there was a CoinWorld article by Richard Kelly and Nancy Oliver from a few years ago that covered the topic (I haven’t read it). On the other hand, I believe Doug Winter is on the record for saying the evidence for the mint-made theory is thin and that the coin shouldn’t be straight graded.
Even if the 893 is not grade disqualifying, Winter (and probably others) have noted that the coin appears to be ex-jewelry. When the coin was originally purchased by Bass (raw), the auction house graded it EF-40 net, which is arguably a more reasonable assessment than the PCGS grade.
I am interested in the timing of the sale. There is one coin in particular that I am interested in bidding on but I need to line up $$ (i.e. probably sell a couple things). I had assumed I had more time but this is just a bit more than a month out...
"The Harry W. Bass, Jr. Collection commences with the first sale of the Core Collection September 29-October 1, 2022."
I wonder how much will be in this sale and how spaced out the rest of it will be.
Perhaps they straight graded the 1870-S $3 because the graffiti is well known, the buyer is very unlikely to not know it is there and the grade really doesn't matter for the coin.
So the problems were just wished away into the cornfield?
Based on what I saw, I see no evidence to the contrary.
Apparently there is some debate among knowledgeable numismatists about whether the “893” etched into the reverse of the 70-S $3 is mint made or PMD.
.893 matches the fineness of Feather River gold that was assayed at the Mint at around the same time. I believe John Dannreuther has expressed the opinion that it was mint made, and there was a CoinWorld article by Richard Kelly and Nancy Oliver from a few years ago that covered the topic (I haven’t read it). On the other hand, I believe Doug Winter is on the record for saying the evidence for the mint-made theory is thin and that the coin shouldn’t be straight graded.
Even if the 893 is not grade disqualifying, Winter (and probably others) have noted that the coin appears to be ex-jewelry. When the coin was originally purchased by Bass (raw), the auction house graded it EF-40 net, which is arguably a more reasonable assessment than the PCGS grade.
Definitely ex-jewelry.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@yosclimber said:
Similarly, I'd like to see the Smithsonian "deaccess" the Lilly Collection.
...or at least all of the damn duplicates, like the 1822 $5 or the 1858 $20 proof (to name two that come to mind).
An interesting thing is that the ANS and ANA have been selling their duplicates.
As well they should! Keep one on display for all Americans that have an interest in coins to see. Sell the rest, and give collectors the opportunity at ownership.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Perhaps they straight graded the 1870-S $3 because the graffiti is well known, the buyer is very unlikely to not know it is there and the grade really doesn't matter for the coin.
So the problems were just wished away into the cornfield?
Based on what I saw, I see no evidence to the contrary.
Apparently there is some debate among knowledgeable numismatists about whether the “893” etched into the reverse of the 70-S $3 is mint made or PMD.
.893 matches the fineness of Feather River gold that was assayed at the Mint at around the same time. I believe John Dannreuther has expressed the opinion that it was mint made, and there was a CoinWorld article by Richard Kelly and Nancy Oliver from a few years ago that covered the topic (I haven’t read it). On the other hand, I believe Doug Winter is on the record for saying the evidence for the mint-made theory is thin and that the coin shouldn’t be straight graded.
Even if the 893 is not grade disqualifying, Winter (and probably others) have noted that the coin appears to be ex-jewelry. When the coin was originally purchased by Bass (raw), the auction house graded it EF-40 net, which is arguably a more reasonable assessment than the PCGS grade.
While the marks may be mint made, it still doesn't explain the straight grade on the Amazonian gold.
I’ve never handled the Amazonian gold. Are you sure that that is hairlining and not die polish ?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@retirednow said:
I might be considered a little pickie ... i do not care for the PCGS Bass label - at least with the image as posted on the site to date ...does not photograph will like many of the other special PCGS pedigree labels.
The gold foil reminds me of the SSCA slabs.
Using the logo of the foundation would have been a nice touch.
David Akers said:
This coin is one of the most famous of all U.S. gold coins. The Superintendent of the San Francisco Mint indicated that only a single piece had been struck to be put into the cornerstone of the new mint building. However, a specimen appeared in the William H. Woodin Sale in 1911 and was claimed to be a duplicate of the coin in the cornerstone. It is probable that the two coins are one and the same and today it is widely accepted that the 1870-S three dollar gold piece is unique. The lone piece is in the collection of the late Louis Eliasberg of Baltimore, Maryland. Mr. Eliasberg purchased the coin through Stack's and the Celina Coin Company for $11,500 in January of 1946, the same month in which he purchased the 1854-S half eagle for less than half that amount ($5500). This, of course, was an astonishing price for the period, although it was $2500 less than the amount that Mr. Eliasberg had paid Abe Kosoff for an 1822 half eagle in July of 1945. Prior to being in the possession of Ted and Carl Brandts who owned the Celina Coin Company, the 1870-S was in the Brand Collection.
The unique piece in the Eliasberg Collection is not in choice condition and, in fact, it has the "pebbled" appearance of a coin that has been used as jewelry. There is also minor damage at the obverse rim below the bust, indicating that the coin probably was worn on a key chain or watch fob. The numerals "893" have also been scratched upside down into the reverse field above the wreath. The S mintmark is totally unlike the mintmark on any U.S. coin, in particular the S Mint coins of 1870, lending credence to the story that the mintmark was cut into the die by hand after the die reached San Francisco.
@Pedzola said:
I am interested in the timing of the sale. There is one coin in particular that I am interested in bidding on but I need to line up $$ (i.e. probably sell a couple things). I had assumed I had more time but this is just a bit more than a month out...
"The Harry W. Bass, Jr. Collection commences with the first sale of the Core Collection September 29-October 1, 2022."
I wonder how much will be in this sale and how spaced out the rest of it will be.
At the Heritage table at WFOM there was a sign saying the Harry Bass Jr auction viewing would be at the FUN show with the auction a week later. I think it's just the patterns that are up for auction in September.
David Akers said:
This coin is one of the most famous of all U.S. gold coins. The Superintendent of the San Francisco Mint indicated that only a single piece had been struck to be put into the cornerstone of the new mint building. However, a specimen appeared in the William H. Woodin Sale in 1911 and was claimed to be a duplicate of the coin in the cornerstone. It is probable that the two coins are one and the same and today it is widely accepted that the 1870-S three dollar gold piece is unique. The lone piece is in the collection of the late Louis Eliasberg of Baltimore, Maryland. Mr. Eliasberg purchased the coin through Stack's and the Celina Coin Company for $11,500 in January of 1946, the same month in which he purchased the 1854-S half eagle for less than half that amount ($5500). This, of course, was an astonishing price for the period, although it was $2500 less than the amount that Mr. Eliasberg had paid Abe Kosoff for an 1822 half eagle in July of 1945. Prior to being in the possession of Ted and Carl Brandts who owned the Celina Coin Company, the 1870-S was in the Brand Collection.
The unique piece in the Eliasberg Collection is not in choice condition and, in fact, it has the "pebbled" appearance of a coin that has been used as jewelry. There is also minor damage at the obverse rim below the bust, indicating that the coin probably was worn on a key chain or watch fob. The numerals "893" have also been scratched upside down into the reverse field above the wreath. The S mintmark is totally unlike the mintmark on any U.S. coin, in particular the S Mint coins of 1870, lending credence to the story that the mintmark was cut into the die by hand after the die reached San Francisco.
Thanks
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Pedzola said:
I am interested in the timing of the sale. There is one coin in particular that I am interested in bidding on but I need to line up $$ (i.e. probably sell a couple things). I had assumed I had more time but this is just a bit more than a month out...
"The Harry W. Bass, Jr. Collection commences with the first sale of the Core Collection September 29-October 1, 2022."
I wonder how much will be in this sale and how spaced out the rest of it will be.
At the Heritage table at WFOM there was a sign saying the Harry Bass Jr auction viewing would be at the FUN show with the auction a week later. I think it's just the patterns that are up for auction in September.
Call me glass half full, but I’d want full transparency of how much the trustees and their attorneys make off of managing the sale. My different perspective is that Bass Jr intended to display these, not let someone else sell them. If they are making money off of this that does not go back into a 503c, it feels all wrong.
@johnny010 said:
Call me glass half full, but I’d want full transparency of how much the trustees and their attorneys make off of managing the sale. My different perspective is that Bass Jr intended to display these, not let someone else sell them. If they are making money off of this that does not go back into a 503c, it feels all wrong.
Proceeds from the auction of this unparalleled assemblage, which begins in the fall, will benefit Dallas nonprofits working with children, homeless people, the hungry and more
@johnny010 said:
Call me glass half full, but I’d want full transparency of how much the trustees and their attorneys make off of managing the sale. My different perspective is that Bass Jr intended to display these, not let someone else sell them. If they are making money off of this that does not go back into a 503c, it feels all wrong.
In my opinion the 893 scratched into the 1870-S $3 gold piece is graffiti
Was it done at the Mint perhaps
I don’t know when the piece was coined Was it around the 24th or 27th of May
FH Rogers deposited a gold bar at the SF Mint on the 27th that was deemed to be 893 Fine
Before melting Weight 322.10 ozs
After 321.86 ozs
893 Fine gold
101 silver
.006 base metal
The Only other 893 Fine gold deposit I recall from reading the records of this exact time period
was made by Donohoe & Kelly on the 24th
A gold deposit of 39.77 ozs pre melt weight 38.42 ozs after melt weight
893 Fine gold
104 silver
.003 trace elements
In my opinion the 893 scratched into the 1870-S $3 gold piece is graffiti
Was it done at the Mint perhaps
I don’t know when the piece was coined Was it around the 24th or 27th of May
FH Rogers deposited a gold bar at the SF Mint on the 27th that was deemed to be 893 Fine
Before melting Weight 322.10 ozs
After 321.86 ozs
893 Fine gold
101 silver
.006 base metal
The Only other 893 Fine gold deposit I recall from reading the records of this exact time period
was made by Donohoe & Kelly on the 24th
A gold deposit of 39.77 ozs pre melt weight 38.42 ozs after melt weight
893 Fine gold
104 silver
.003 trace elements
Most sources say May 26, 1870, but the U.S. Mint once said May 25th here:
Either way a deposit on the 27th was too late to make the cornerstone.
One can speculate forever on this. Did the Coiner or some other high muck-a-muck make a second striking on or after the 27th from raw, unrefined California gold just to have his own souvenir of the event? We will never know.
That said, somebody should do a careful elemental analysis of the piece now, to compare it to the OTHER one in the cornerstone if and when the cornerstone is finally unearthed and opened.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@johnny010 made a comment in another thread about some concerns regarding the sale of the Harry Bass collection. According to the publicly filed 990s (https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/751876307/202411349349104766/full), there is very little money going out other than to charitable endeavors. The disbursements are going to many different charities, all of which seem like reasonable organizations at a glance. I wasn't aware of any controversy regarding the sale.
Johnny - would you please go into a bit more detail because I can't find anything out of the ordinary.
Those compensation numbers are very reasonable -- many 503c pay the top executives many millions. Seems to be a well run legitimate group run for the benefit of the stated beneficiaries.
@johnny010 made a comment in another thread about some concerns regarding the sale of the Harry Bass collection. According to the publicly filed 990s (https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/751876307/202411349349104766/full), there is very little money going out other than to charitable endeavors. The disbursements are going to many different charities, all of which seem like reasonable organizations at a glance. I wasn't aware of any controversy regarding the sale.
Johnny - would you please go into a bit more detail because I can't find anything out of the ordinary.
Does it breakdown the “charitable contributions” by organization? I have no horse in this race but charitable donations can often be kickback schemes digitized as philanthropy. Just like billionaires set up their own foundation and write off any “donations” to the foundation, but the kicker is family members might be highly compensated officers of the foundation, or the “charities” receiving disbursements allocate more than 90% of income to administrative costs while a tiny portion actually is used towards the cause.
Same deal with our government handing out grants to NGOs who then disburse to other nonprofits, but they don’t tell you that the congressman’s wife is an officer of one of the nonprofits, with a 450k salary lol. Not meant to be political either, both sides are complicit in this activity and the layers of organizations prevent public scrutiny.
@johnny010 made a comment in another thread about some concerns regarding the sale of the Harry Bass collection. According to the publicly filed 990s (https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/751876307/202411349349104766/full), there is very little money going out other than to charitable endeavors. The disbursements are going to many different charities, all of which seem like reasonable organizations at a glance. I wasn't aware of any controversy regarding the sale.
Johnny - would you please go into a bit more detail because I can't find anything out of the ordinary.
Does it breakdown the “charitable contributions” by organization? I have no horse in this race but charitable donations can often be kickback schemes digitized as philanthropy. Just like billionaires set up their own foundation and write off any “donations” to the foundation, but the kicker is family members might be highly compensated officers of the foundation, or the “charities” receiving disbursements allocate more than 90% of income to administrative costs while a tiny portion actually is used towards the cause.
Same deal with our government handing out grants to NGOs who then disburse to other nonprofits, but they don’t tell you that the congressman’s wife is an officer of one of the nonprofits, with a 450k salary lol. Not meant to be political either, both sides are complicit in this activity and the layers of organizations prevent public scrutiny.
There are definitely many schemes possible in foundations and charitable giving. I've seen some ugly stuff first hand at work. But this seems like it's on the up and up.
@Lernish
Although a list of non profits does not convince me they are all legit, I’m not going to start researching each one. With that said I’ll amend my prior unnecessary innuendo since I’m not willing to put in the research needed to say one way or the other. By and large I’ve learned very seldom in business is any decision what it seems on the surface and the thought that the museum just decided post Covid there was so much need in the world it was better to sell off this specific collection just doesn’t pass mustard with me.
@johnny010 said: @Lernish
Although a list of non profits does not convince me they are all legit, I’m not going to start researching each one. With that said I’ll amend my prior unnecessary innuendo since I’m not willing to put in the research needed to say one way or the other. By and large I’ve learned very seldom in business is any decision what it seems on the surface and the thought that the museum just decided post Covid there was so much need in the world it was better to sell off this specific collection just doesn’t pass mustard with me.
The ANA Museum did not own the collection, so the ANA Museum could not sell the collection.
The Foundation loaned the collection to the ANA Museum for a set period of time, and at the end of that time the Foundation took back the collection and sold it.
As a proud 50 Year member of the ANA, I would appreciate it if you would stop accusing the ANA Museum of doing something it did not do.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Off hand, living in the area, I recognize at least 2/3 of the non-profits and they are ALL legit. Idiotic conspiracy theories and other stupidity upthread aside. As another ANA Life/Emeritus member, I'm also POed at the last few posts.
UTD's motto is "Disciplina Praesidium Civitatis" - perhaps apply it and learn something before you shoot your mouth off.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
@johnny010 said: @Lernish
Although a list of non profits does not convince me they are all legit, I’m not going to start researching each one. With that said I’ll amend my prior unnecessary innuendo since I’m not willing to put in the research needed to say one way or the other. By and large I’ve learned very seldom in business is any decision what it seems on the surface and the thought that the museum just decided post Covid there was so much need in the world it was better to sell off this specific collection just doesn’t pass mustard with me.
That may be but I think you are missing some key facts in this case.
Harry Bass donated his coins to his (and his father's) foundation over the course of decades, prior to his death. The purpose of the foundation is "to enrich the lives of the citizens of Texas by providing support to qualified organizations in the areas of education, human services, civic and community, science and research, and arts and culture"
The foundation lent the collection to the ANA for a long period of time and then decided, to fulfill the goals of the foundation, that selling the coins to start making donations made the most sense. They then began donating large sums of money to the Dallas area charities reported above.
The ANA had zero to do with the sale and didn't benefit from the sale at all. You're really way off the mark with your theory/suspicion.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I haven't read all of the comments, but it occurs to me that the general coin collector and even those who value history will be deprived of seeing this once in a lifetime collection. It will be fragmented into many strong hands and will not see the light of day for a long time...and then likely not as a complete collection. I'm so glad I was able to view the collection back in 2005. I understand why the ANA is doing this and it was on display for many years, but it's just kind of too bad it will essentially disappear now.
"Ain't None of Them play like him (Bix Beiderbecke) Yet." Louis Armstrong
@Rollerman said:
I haven't read all of the comments, but it occurs to me that the general coin collector and even those who value history will be deprived of seeing this once in a lifetime collection. It will be fragmented into many strong hands and will not see the light of day for a long time...and then likely not as a complete collection. I'm so glad I was able to view the collection back in 2005. I understand why the ANA is doing this and it was on display for many years, but it's just kind of too bad it will essentially disappear now.
The ANA isn’t doing anything, the Bass foundation is the group which took the action to sell the coins.
@Rollerman said:
I haven't read all of the comments, but it occurs to me that the general coin collector and even those who value history will be deprived of seeing this once in a lifetime collection. It will be fragmented into many strong hands and will not see the light of day for a long time...and then likely not as a complete collection. I'm so glad I was able to view the collection back in 2005. I understand why the ANA is doing this and it was on display for many years, but it's just kind of too bad it will essentially disappear now.
One can still view the collection at the Foundation Web Site or by going to Heritage auction Archives and sorting for the dedicated Bass Auctions. Gee ... one can still look at the Heritage On Line auction catalog with the nice photos. When it was at the ANA, unless you actually traveled there, the Foundation Web site was the only way to view the collection. I do not think it was a lost at all. I am pleased it was sold ... I picked up 4 of the Patterns and felt good that the proceeds went to charity
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
@Rollerman said:
I haven't read all of the comments, but it occurs to me that the general coin collector and even those who value history will be deprived of seeing this once in a lifetime collection. It will be fragmented into many strong hands and will not see the light of day for a long time...and then likely not as a complete collection. I'm so glad I was able to view the collection back in 2005. I understand why the ANA is doing this and it was on display for many years, but it's just kind of too bad it will essentially disappear now.
The ANA is not doing this.
The wife of the guy who loaned you his drill and then died asked for the drill back.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
@Rollerman said:
I haven't read all of the comments, but it occurs to me that the general coin collector and even those who value history will be deprived of seeing this once in a lifetime collection. It will be fragmented into many strong hands and will not see the light of day for a long time...and then likely not as a complete collection. I'm so glad I was able to view the collection back in 2005. I understand why the ANA is doing this and it was on display for many years, but it's just kind of too bad it will essentially disappear now.
One can still view the collection at the Foundation Web Site or by going to Heritage auction Archives and sorting for the dedicated Bass Auctions. Gee ... one can still look at the Heritage On Line auction catalog with the nice photos. When it was at the ANA, unless you actually traveled there, the Foundation Web site was the only way to view the collection. I do not think it was a lost at all. I am pleased it was sold ... I picked up 4 of the Patterns and felt good that the proceeds went to charity
Which of the patterns did you get?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@johnny010 said: @Lernish
Although a list of non profits does not convince me they are all legit, I’m not going to start researching each one. With that said I’ll amend my prior unnecessary innuendo since I’m not willing to put in the research needed to say one way or the other. By and large I’ve learned very seldom in business is any decision what it seems on the surface and the thought that the museum just decided post Covid there was so much need in the world it was better to sell off this specific collection just doesn’t pass mustard with me.
You seem to have random accusations and no proof or even a scintilla of evidence that there is anything amiss here. On the contrary, I see hard evidence that a wealthy family has donated millions of dollars to worthy causes which should be commended.
Comments
Straight graded AU-50.
I have photos of pretty much everything.
Been a handful of times just this year.
It's a little bit mind melting every. single. time.
Now I'm going to have to go this weekend again lol.
Here's a nice sample of the collection for those who can't make it before it goes...
I should probably do different nothing but photos thread.
Warning 17 sweet images ahead...
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
It is already gone
Several days ago in a separate thread I presented tables of the PCGS Grades and links to photos for
Early $2.50, $5, $10, all by BD die variety:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13304461#Comment_13304461
What shocked me was the Amazonian proof gold - when I saw the coins at the exhibit I had thought for sure they would grade cleaned with all of those hairlines and the halos around the stars. At least that is what I remember.
Perhaps they straight graded the 1870-S $3 because the graffiti is well known, the buyer is very unlikely to not know it is there and the grade really doesn't matter for the coin.
So the problems were just wished away into the cornfield?
Haven't been able to go since the end of June.
Darn.
Memories...
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
Based on what I saw, I see no evidence to the contrary.
Apparently there is some debate among knowledgeable numismatists about whether the “893” etched into the reverse of the 70-S $3 is mint made or PMD.
.893 matches the fineness of Feather River gold that was assayed at the Mint at around the same time. I believe John Dannreuther has expressed the opinion that it was mint made, and there was a CoinWorld article by Richard Kelly and Nancy Oliver from a few years ago that covered the topic (I haven’t read it). On the other hand, I believe Doug Winter is on the record for saying the evidence for the mint-made theory is thin and that the coin shouldn’t be straight graded.
Even if the 893 is not grade disqualifying, Winter (and probably others) have noted that the coin appears to be ex-jewelry. When the coin was originally purchased by Bass (raw), the auction house graded it EF-40 net, which is arguably a more reasonable assessment than the PCGS grade.
I am interested in the timing of the sale. There is one coin in particular that I am interested in bidding on but I need to line up $$ (i.e. probably sell a couple things). I had assumed I had more time but this is just a bit more than a month out...
"The Harry W. Bass, Jr. Collection commences with the first sale of the Core Collection September 29-October 1, 2022."
I wonder how much will be in this sale and how spaced out the rest of it will be.
Instagram
Definitely ex-jewelry.
As well they should! Keep one on display for all Americans that have an interest in coins to see. Sell the rest, and give collectors the opportunity at ownership.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
While the marks may be mint made, it still doesn't explain the straight grade on the Amazonian gold.
I’ve never handled the Amazonian gold. Are you sure that that is hairlining and not die polish ?
The gold foil reminds me of the SSCA slabs.
Using the logo of the foundation would have been a nice touch.
Here's the 1870-S Troller
At the Heritage table at WFOM there was a sign saying the Harry Bass Jr auction viewing would be at the FUN show with the auction a week later. I think it's just the patterns that are up for auction in September.
Thanks
I’m quite sure. The coins graded low (62/63), which agrees with my statement.
From the HA website this is the current in-work auction listing for Sept.
I did a screen shot of the sort column on the left side for a summary, so far, of it. I assume more might be added.
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https://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=3183+792+4294940607&ic=Items-OpenAuctions-ComingSoon-BrowseCatalog-051914
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yq4KA0mUnC8 - Dream On (Aerosmith cover) via Morgan James & Postmodern Jukebox
https://youtube.com/watch?v=m3lF2qEA2cw - Creep (Radiohead cover) via Haley Reinhart & Postmodern Jukebox
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Of the 106 coins showing in the sale listing thus far, 28 are patterns.
https://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=3183+792+4294940607&ic=Items-OpenAuctions-ComingSoon-BrowseViewLots-071713
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Call me glass half full, but I’d want full transparency of how much the trustees and their attorneys make off of managing the sale. My different perspective is that Bass Jr intended to display these, not let someone else sell them. If they are making money off of this that does not go back into a 503c, it feels all wrong.
No that's not the case at all.
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https://coins.ha.com/information/harry-bass-collection.s
Proceeds from the auction of this unparalleled assemblage, which begins in the fall, will benefit Dallas nonprofits working with children, homeless people, the hungry and more
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yq4KA0mUnC8 - Dream On (Aerosmith cover) via Morgan James & Postmodern Jukebox
https://youtube.com/watch?v=m3lF2qEA2cw - Creep (Radiohead cover) via Haley Reinhart & Postmodern Jukebox
RLJ 1958 - 2023
The foundation 990s are public domain.
In my opinion the 893 scratched into the 1870-S $3 gold piece is graffiti
Was it done at the Mint perhaps
I don’t know when the piece was coined Was it around the 24th or 27th of May
FH Rogers deposited a gold bar at the SF Mint on the 27th that was deemed to be 893 Fine
Before melting Weight 322.10 ozs
After 321.86 ozs
893 Fine gold
101 silver
.006 base metal
The Only other 893 Fine gold deposit I recall from reading the records of this exact time period
was made by Donohoe & Kelly on the 24th
A gold deposit of 39.77 ozs pre melt weight 38.42 ozs after melt weight
893 Fine gold
104 silver
.003 trace elements
.> @CaptainBlunt said:
Most sources say May 26, 1870, but the U.S. Mint once said May 25th here:
https://www.usmint.gov/learn/history/historical-documents/old-mint-building-san-francisco
Either way a deposit on the 27th was too late to make the cornerstone.
One can speculate forever on this. Did the Coiner or some other high muck-a-muck make a second striking on or after the 27th from raw, unrefined California gold just to have his own souvenir of the event? We will never know.
That said, somebody should do a careful elemental analysis of the piece now, to compare it to the OTHER one in the cornerstone if and when the cornerstone is finally unearthed and opened.
TD
OLD THREAD ALERT
@johnny010 made a comment in another thread about some concerns regarding the sale of the Harry Bass collection. According to the publicly filed 990s (https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/751876307/202411349349104766/full), there is very little money going out other than to charitable endeavors. The disbursements are going to many different charities, all of which seem like reasonable organizations at a glance. I wasn't aware of any controversy regarding the sale.
Johnny - would you please go into a bit more detail because I can't find anything out of the ordinary.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Those compensation numbers are very reasonable -- many 503c pay the top executives many millions. Seems to be a well run legitimate group run for the benefit of the stated beneficiaries.
Does it breakdown the “charitable contributions” by organization? I have no horse in this race but charitable donations can often be kickback schemes digitized as philanthropy. Just like billionaires set up their own foundation and write off any “donations” to the foundation, but the kicker is family members might be highly compensated officers of the foundation, or the “charities” receiving disbursements allocate more than 90% of income to administrative costs while a tiny portion actually is used towards the cause.
Same deal with our government handing out grants to NGOs who then disburse to other nonprofits, but they don’t tell you that the congressman’s wife is an officer of one of the nonprofits, with a 450k salary lol. Not meant to be political either, both sides are complicit in this activity and the layers of organizations prevent public scrutiny.
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There are definitely many schemes possible in foundations and charitable giving. I've seen some ugly stuff first hand at work. But this seems like it's on the up and up.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
@Lernish
Although a list of non profits does not convince me they are all legit, I’m not going to start researching each one. With that said I’ll amend my prior unnecessary innuendo since I’m not willing to put in the research needed to say one way or the other. By and large I’ve learned very seldom in business is any decision what it seems on the surface and the thought that the museum just decided post Covid there was so much need in the world it was better to sell off this specific collection just doesn’t pass mustard with me.
The ANA Museum did not own the collection, so the ANA Museum could not sell the collection.
The Foundation loaned the collection to the ANA Museum for a set period of time, and at the end of that time the Foundation took back the collection and sold it.
As a proud 50 Year member of the ANA, I would appreciate it if you would stop accusing the ANA Museum of doing something it did not do.
@CaptHenway has the right of it.
Off hand, living in the area, I recognize at least 2/3 of the non-profits and they are ALL legit. Idiotic conspiracy theories and other stupidity upthread aside. As another ANA Life/Emeritus member, I'm also POed at the last few posts.
UTD's motto is "Disciplina Praesidium Civitatis" - perhaps apply it and learn something before you shoot your mouth off.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
What exactly is the accusation being made here, and on what basis? I missed the other thread.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
That may be but I think you are missing some key facts in this case.
Harry Bass donated his coins to his (and his father's) foundation over the course of decades, prior to his death. The purpose of the foundation is "to enrich the lives of the citizens of Texas by providing support to qualified organizations in the areas of education, human services, civic and community, science and research, and arts and culture"
The foundation lent the collection to the ANA for a long period of time and then decided, to fulfill the goals of the foundation, that selling the coins to start making donations made the most sense. They then began donating large sums of money to the Dallas area charities reported above.
The ANA had zero to do with the sale and didn't benefit from the sale at all. You're really way off the mark with your theory/suspicion.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Here is the other thread.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1113298/1870cc-presentation-dollar#latest
I haven't read all of the comments, but it occurs to me that the general coin collector and even those who value history will be deprived of seeing this once in a lifetime collection. It will be fragmented into many strong hands and will not see the light of day for a long time...and then likely not as a complete collection. I'm so glad I was able to view the collection back in 2005. I understand why the ANA is doing this and it was on display for many years, but it's just kind of too bad it will essentially disappear now.
Louis Armstrong
The ANA isn’t doing anything, the Bass foundation is the group which took the action to sell the coins.
Latin American Collection
Bass or foundation sold many coins at auction well before the loaned ANA exhibit coins.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
One can still view the collection at the Foundation Web Site or by going to Heritage auction Archives and sorting for the dedicated Bass Auctions. Gee ... one can still look at the Heritage On Line auction catalog with the nice photos. When it was at the ANA, unless you actually traveled there, the Foundation Web site was the only way to view the collection. I do not think it was a lost at all. I am pleased it was sold ... I picked up 4 of the Patterns and felt good that the proceeds went to charity
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
The ANA is not doing this.
The wife of the guy who loaned you his drill and then died asked for the drill back.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Which of the patterns did you get?
You seem to have random accusations and no proof or even a scintilla of evidence that there is anything amiss here. On the contrary, I see hard evidence that a wealthy family has donated millions of dollars to worthy causes which should be commended.