@CaptHenway said:
Will the 1870-S $3 straight grade?
Straight graded AU-50.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I have photos of pretty much everything.
Been a handful of times just this year.
It's a little bit mind melting every. single. time.
Now I'm going to have to go this weekend again lol.
Here's a nice sample of the collection for those who can't make it before it goes...
I should probably do different nothing but photos thread.
Warning 17 sweet images ahead...
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
Will the 1870-S $3 straight grade?
Straight graded AU-50.
What shocked me was the Amazonian proof gold - when I saw the coins at the exhibit I had thought for sure they would grade cleaned with all of those hairlines and the halos around the stars. At least that is what I remember.
Perhaps they straight graded the 1870-S $3 because the graffiti is well known, the buyer is very unlikely to not know it is there and the grade really doesn't matter for the coin.
@CaptHenway said:
Will the 1870-S $3 straight grade?
Straight graded AU-50.
What shocked me was the Amazonian proof gold - when I saw the coins at the exhibit I had thought for sure they would grade cleaned with all of those hairlines and the halos around the stars. At least that is what I remember.
Perhaps they straight graded the 1870-S $3 because the graffiti is well known, the buyer is very unlikely to not know it is there and the grade really doesn't matter for the coin.
So the problems were just wished away into the cornfield?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Haven't been able to go since the end of June.
Darn.
Memories...
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
@CaptHenway said:
Will the 1870-S $3 straight grade?
Straight graded AU-50.
What shocked me was the Amazonian proof gold - when I saw the coins at the exhibit I had thought for sure they would grade cleaned with all of those hairlines and the halos around the stars. At least that is what I remember.
Perhaps they straight graded the 1870-S $3 because the graffiti is well known, the buyer is very unlikely to not know it is there and the grade really doesn't matter for the coin.
So the problems were just wished away into the cornfield?
Based on what I saw, I see no evidence to the contrary.
Perhaps they straight graded the 1870-S $3 because the graffiti is well known, the buyer is very unlikely to not know it is there and the grade really doesn't matter for the coin.
So the problems were just wished away into the cornfield?
Based on what I saw, I see no evidence to the contrary.
Apparently there is some debate among knowledgeable numismatists about whether the “893” etched into the reverse of the 70-S $3 is mint made or PMD.
.893 matches the fineness of Feather River gold that was assayed at the Mint at around the same time. I believe John Dannreuther has expressed the opinion that it was mint made, and there was a CoinWorld article by Richard Kelly and Nancy Oliver from a few years ago that covered the topic (I haven’t read it). On the other hand, I believe Doug Winter is on the record for saying the evidence for the mint-made theory is thin and that the coin shouldn’t be straight graded.
Even if the 893 is not grade disqualifying, Winter (and probably others) have noted that the coin appears to be ex-jewelry. When the coin was originally purchased by Bass (raw), the auction house graded it EF-40 net, which is arguably a more reasonable assessment than the PCGS grade.
I am interested in the timing of the sale. There is one coin in particular that I am interested in bidding on but I need to line up $$ (i.e. probably sell a couple things). I had assumed I had more time but this is just a bit more than a month out...
"The Harry W. Bass, Jr. Collection commences with the first sale of the Core Collection September 29-October 1, 2022."
I wonder how much will be in this sale and how spaced out the rest of it will be.
Perhaps they straight graded the 1870-S $3 because the graffiti is well known, the buyer is very unlikely to not know it is there and the grade really doesn't matter for the coin.
So the problems were just wished away into the cornfield?
Based on what I saw, I see no evidence to the contrary.
Apparently there is some debate among knowledgeable numismatists about whether the “893” etched into the reverse of the 70-S $3 is mint made or PMD.
.893 matches the fineness of Feather River gold that was assayed at the Mint at around the same time. I believe John Dannreuther has expressed the opinion that it was mint made, and there was a CoinWorld article by Richard Kelly and Nancy Oliver from a few years ago that covered the topic (I haven’t read it). On the other hand, I believe Doug Winter is on the record for saying the evidence for the mint-made theory is thin and that the coin shouldn’t be straight graded.
Even if the 893 is not grade disqualifying, Winter (and probably others) have noted that the coin appears to be ex-jewelry. When the coin was originally purchased by Bass (raw), the auction house graded it EF-40 net, which is arguably a more reasonable assessment than the PCGS grade.
Definitely ex-jewelry.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@yosclimber said:
Similarly, I'd like to see the Smithsonian "deaccess" the Lilly Collection.
...or at least all of the damn duplicates, like the 1822 $5 or the 1858 $20 proof (to name two that come to mind).
An interesting thing is that the ANS and ANA have been selling their duplicates.
As well they should! Keep one on display for all Americans that have an interest in coins to see. Sell the rest, and give collectors the opportunity at ownership.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Perhaps they straight graded the 1870-S $3 because the graffiti is well known, the buyer is very unlikely to not know it is there and the grade really doesn't matter for the coin.
So the problems were just wished away into the cornfield?
Based on what I saw, I see no evidence to the contrary.
Apparently there is some debate among knowledgeable numismatists about whether the “893” etched into the reverse of the 70-S $3 is mint made or PMD.
.893 matches the fineness of Feather River gold that was assayed at the Mint at around the same time. I believe John Dannreuther has expressed the opinion that it was mint made, and there was a CoinWorld article by Richard Kelly and Nancy Oliver from a few years ago that covered the topic (I haven’t read it). On the other hand, I believe Doug Winter is on the record for saying the evidence for the mint-made theory is thin and that the coin shouldn’t be straight graded.
Even if the 893 is not grade disqualifying, Winter (and probably others) have noted that the coin appears to be ex-jewelry. When the coin was originally purchased by Bass (raw), the auction house graded it EF-40 net, which is arguably a more reasonable assessment than the PCGS grade.
While the marks may be mint made, it still doesn't explain the straight grade on the Amazonian gold.
I’ve never handled the Amazonian gold. Are you sure that that is hairlining and not die polish ?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@retirednow said:
I might be considered a little pickie ... i do not care for the PCGS Bass label - at least with the image as posted on the site to date ...does not photograph will like many of the other special PCGS pedigree labels.
The gold foil reminds me of the SSCA slabs.
Using the logo of the foundation would have been a nice touch.
David Akers said:
This coin is one of the most famous of all U.S. gold coins. The Superintendent of the San Francisco Mint indicated that only a single piece had been struck to be put into the cornerstone of the new mint building. However, a specimen appeared in the William H. Woodin Sale in 1911 and was claimed to be a duplicate of the coin in the cornerstone. It is probable that the two coins are one and the same and today it is widely accepted that the 1870-S three dollar gold piece is unique. The lone piece is in the collection of the late Louis Eliasberg of Baltimore, Maryland. Mr. Eliasberg purchased the coin through Stack's and the Celina Coin Company for $11,500 in January of 1946, the same month in which he purchased the 1854-S half eagle for less than half that amount ($5500). This, of course, was an astonishing price for the period, although it was $2500 less than the amount that Mr. Eliasberg had paid Abe Kosoff for an 1822 half eagle in July of 1945. Prior to being in the possession of Ted and Carl Brandts who owned the Celina Coin Company, the 1870-S was in the Brand Collection.
The unique piece in the Eliasberg Collection is not in choice condition and, in fact, it has the "pebbled" appearance of a coin that has been used as jewelry. There is also minor damage at the obverse rim below the bust, indicating that the coin probably was worn on a key chain or watch fob. The numerals "893" have also been scratched upside down into the reverse field above the wreath. The S mintmark is totally unlike the mintmark on any U.S. coin, in particular the S Mint coins of 1870, lending credence to the story that the mintmark was cut into the die by hand after the die reached San Francisco.
@Pedzola said:
I am interested in the timing of the sale. There is one coin in particular that I am interested in bidding on but I need to line up $$ (i.e. probably sell a couple things). I had assumed I had more time but this is just a bit more than a month out...
"The Harry W. Bass, Jr. Collection commences with the first sale of the Core Collection September 29-October 1, 2022."
I wonder how much will be in this sale and how spaced out the rest of it will be.
At the Heritage table at WFOM there was a sign saying the Harry Bass Jr auction viewing would be at the FUN show with the auction a week later. I think it's just the patterns that are up for auction in September.
David Akers said:
This coin is one of the most famous of all U.S. gold coins. The Superintendent of the San Francisco Mint indicated that only a single piece had been struck to be put into the cornerstone of the new mint building. However, a specimen appeared in the William H. Woodin Sale in 1911 and was claimed to be a duplicate of the coin in the cornerstone. It is probable that the two coins are one and the same and today it is widely accepted that the 1870-S three dollar gold piece is unique. The lone piece is in the collection of the late Louis Eliasberg of Baltimore, Maryland. Mr. Eliasberg purchased the coin through Stack's and the Celina Coin Company for $11,500 in January of 1946, the same month in which he purchased the 1854-S half eagle for less than half that amount ($5500). This, of course, was an astonishing price for the period, although it was $2500 less than the amount that Mr. Eliasberg had paid Abe Kosoff for an 1822 half eagle in July of 1945. Prior to being in the possession of Ted and Carl Brandts who owned the Celina Coin Company, the 1870-S was in the Brand Collection.
The unique piece in the Eliasberg Collection is not in choice condition and, in fact, it has the "pebbled" appearance of a coin that has been used as jewelry. There is also minor damage at the obverse rim below the bust, indicating that the coin probably was worn on a key chain or watch fob. The numerals "893" have also been scratched upside down into the reverse field above the wreath. The S mintmark is totally unlike the mintmark on any U.S. coin, in particular the S Mint coins of 1870, lending credence to the story that the mintmark was cut into the die by hand after the die reached San Francisco.
Thanks
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Pedzola said:
I am interested in the timing of the sale. There is one coin in particular that I am interested in bidding on but I need to line up $$ (i.e. probably sell a couple things). I had assumed I had more time but this is just a bit more than a month out...
"The Harry W. Bass, Jr. Collection commences with the first sale of the Core Collection September 29-October 1, 2022."
I wonder how much will be in this sale and how spaced out the rest of it will be.
At the Heritage table at WFOM there was a sign saying the Harry Bass Jr auction viewing would be at the FUN show with the auction a week later. I think it's just the patterns that are up for auction in September.
Call me glass half full, but I’d want full transparency of how much the trustees and their attorneys make off of managing the sale. My different perspective is that Bass Jr intended to display these, not let someone else sell them. If they are making money off of this that does not go back into a 503c, it feels all wrong.
@johnny010 said:
Call me glass half full, but I’d want full transparency of how much the trustees and their attorneys make off of managing the sale. My different perspective is that Bass Jr intended to display these, not let someone else sell them. If they are making money off of this that does not go back into a 503c, it feels all wrong.
Proceeds from the auction of this unparalleled assemblage, which begins in the fall, will benefit Dallas nonprofits working with children, homeless people, the hungry and more
@johnny010 said:
Call me glass half full, but I’d want full transparency of how much the trustees and their attorneys make off of managing the sale. My different perspective is that Bass Jr intended to display these, not let someone else sell them. If they are making money off of this that does not go back into a 503c, it feels all wrong.
In my opinion the 893 scratched into the 1870-S $3 gold piece is graffiti
Was it done at the Mint perhaps
I don’t know when the piece was coined Was it around the 24th or 27th of May
FH Rogers deposited a gold bar at the SF Mint on the 27th that was deemed to be 893 Fine
Before melting Weight 322.10 ozs
After 321.86 ozs
893 Fine gold
101 silver
.006 base metal
The Only other 893 Fine gold deposit I recall from reading the records of this exact time period
was made by Donohoe & Kelly on the 24th
A gold deposit of 39.77 ozs pre melt weight 38.42 ozs after melt weight
893 Fine gold
104 silver
.003 trace elements
In my opinion the 893 scratched into the 1870-S $3 gold piece is graffiti
Was it done at the Mint perhaps
I don’t know when the piece was coined Was it around the 24th or 27th of May
FH Rogers deposited a gold bar at the SF Mint on the 27th that was deemed to be 893 Fine
Before melting Weight 322.10 ozs
After 321.86 ozs
893 Fine gold
101 silver
.006 base metal
The Only other 893 Fine gold deposit I recall from reading the records of this exact time period
was made by Donohoe & Kelly on the 24th
A gold deposit of 39.77 ozs pre melt weight 38.42 ozs after melt weight
893 Fine gold
104 silver
.003 trace elements
Most sources say May 26, 1870, but the U.S. Mint once said May 25th here:
Either way a deposit on the 27th was too late to make the cornerstone.
One can speculate forever on this. Did the Coiner or some other high muck-a-muck make a second striking on or after the 27th from raw, unrefined California gold just to have his own souvenir of the event? We will never know.
That said, somebody should do a careful elemental analysis of the piece now, to compare it to the OTHER one in the cornerstone if and when the cornerstone is finally unearthed and opened.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
Straight graded AU-50.
I have photos of pretty much everything.
Been a handful of times just this year.
It's a little bit mind melting every. single. time.
Now I'm going to have to go this weekend again lol.
Here's a nice sample of the collection for those who can't make it before it goes...
I should probably do different nothing but photos thread.
Warning 17 sweet images ahead...
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
It is already gone
Several days ago in a separate thread I presented tables of the PCGS Grades and links to photos for
Early $2.50, $5, $10, all by BD die variety:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13304461#Comment_13304461
What shocked me was the Amazonian proof gold - when I saw the coins at the exhibit I had thought for sure they would grade cleaned with all of those hairlines and the halos around the stars. At least that is what I remember.
Perhaps they straight graded the 1870-S $3 because the graffiti is well known, the buyer is very unlikely to not know it is there and the grade really doesn't matter for the coin.
Coin Photographer.
So the problems were just wished away into the cornfield?
Haven't been able to go since the end of June.
Darn.
Memories...
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
Based on what I saw, I see no evidence to the contrary.
Coin Photographer.
Apparently there is some debate among knowledgeable numismatists about whether the “893” etched into the reverse of the 70-S $3 is mint made or PMD.
.893 matches the fineness of Feather River gold that was assayed at the Mint at around the same time. I believe John Dannreuther has expressed the opinion that it was mint made, and there was a CoinWorld article by Richard Kelly and Nancy Oliver from a few years ago that covered the topic (I haven’t read it). On the other hand, I believe Doug Winter is on the record for saying the evidence for the mint-made theory is thin and that the coin shouldn’t be straight graded.
Even if the 893 is not grade disqualifying, Winter (and probably others) have noted that the coin appears to be ex-jewelry. When the coin was originally purchased by Bass (raw), the auction house graded it EF-40 net, which is arguably a more reasonable assessment than the PCGS grade.
I am interested in the timing of the sale. There is one coin in particular that I am interested in bidding on but I need to line up $$ (i.e. probably sell a couple things). I had assumed I had more time but this is just a bit more than a month out...
"The Harry W. Bass, Jr. Collection commences with the first sale of the Core Collection September 29-October 1, 2022."
I wonder how much will be in this sale and how spaced out the rest of it will be.
Instagram
Definitely ex-jewelry.
As well they should! Keep one on display for all Americans that have an interest in coins to see. Sell the rest, and give collectors the opportunity at ownership.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
While the marks may be mint made, it still doesn't explain the straight grade on the Amazonian gold.
Coin Photographer.
I’ve never handled the Amazonian gold. Are you sure that that is hairlining and not die polish ?
The gold foil reminds me of the SSCA slabs.
Using the logo of the foundation would have been a nice touch.
Here's the 1870-S Troller
At the Heritage table at WFOM there was a sign saying the Harry Bass Jr auction viewing would be at the FUN show with the auction a week later. I think it's just the patterns that are up for auction in September.
Thanks
I’m quite sure. The coins graded low (62/63), which agrees with my statement.
Coin Photographer.
From the HA website this is the current in-work auction listing for Sept.
I did a screen shot of the sort column on the left side for a summary, so far, of it. I assume more might be added.
.
https://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=3183+792+4294940607&ic=Items-OpenAuctions-ComingSoon-BrowseCatalog-051914
.
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Of the 106 coins showing in the sale listing thus far, 28 are patterns.
https://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=3183+792+4294940607&ic=Items-OpenAuctions-ComingSoon-BrowseViewLots-071713
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Call me glass half full, but I’d want full transparency of how much the trustees and their attorneys make off of managing the sale. My different perspective is that Bass Jr intended to display these, not let someone else sell them. If they are making money off of this that does not go back into a 503c, it feels all wrong.
No that's not the case at all.
.
https://coins.ha.com/information/harry-bass-collection.s
Proceeds from the auction of this unparalleled assemblage, which begins in the fall, will benefit Dallas nonprofits working with children, homeless people, the hungry and more
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
The foundation 990s are public domain.
In my opinion the 893 scratched into the 1870-S $3 gold piece is graffiti
Was it done at the Mint perhaps
I don’t know when the piece was coined Was it around the 24th or 27th of May
FH Rogers deposited a gold bar at the SF Mint on the 27th that was deemed to be 893 Fine
Before melting Weight 322.10 ozs
After 321.86 ozs
893 Fine gold
101 silver
.006 base metal
The Only other 893 Fine gold deposit I recall from reading the records of this exact time period
was made by Donohoe & Kelly on the 24th
A gold deposit of 39.77 ozs pre melt weight 38.42 ozs after melt weight
893 Fine gold
104 silver
.003 trace elements
.> @CaptainBlunt said:
Most sources say May 26, 1870, but the U.S. Mint once said May 25th here:
https://www.usmint.gov/learn/history/historical-documents/old-mint-building-san-francisco
Either way a deposit on the 27th was too late to make the cornerstone.
One can speculate forever on this. Did the Coiner or some other high muck-a-muck make a second striking on or after the 27th from raw, unrefined California gold just to have his own souvenir of the event? We will never know.
That said, somebody should do a careful elemental analysis of the piece now, to compare it to the OTHER one in the cornerstone if and when the cornerstone is finally unearthed and opened.
TD