@TomB said:
Why does the silver COA state "170 of 230"? Weren't there 1794 privy mark coins? It appears to me that someone made something up on their own.
This ^^^. As I said, it's just a piece of paper. It's not made up, but it's also not tied to a specific coin.
Why people are paying crazy premiums for them on eBay is a real mystery to me, since the director will basically sign anything you put in front of her at a show.
I get people getting excited over coins with a provenance and/or an attribution. I don't get people paying for autographs from government bureaucrats.
I get people getting excited over 230 gold privy coins, with a provenance and a specific coin number attribution right on the slab, accompanied by a matching signed, numbered COA. I don't get why anyone would think anyone else would get excited over matching it to a signed, numbered COA from another, albeit related, product, where that piece of paper is not tied to a specific medal.
That said, I've been wrong before and will be again, so, who knows? I am not the target market at $34K for the gold coin, nor for the silver privy at $3K+, or at $7K+ with the signed piece of paper.
So I'm CERTAINLY not the target for the pair at $90K. If someone else thinks it's worth owning at even one half of that price, more power to them, but I just don't see it.
@TomB said:
Why does the silver COA state "170 of 230"? Weren't there 1794 privy mark coins? It appears to me that someone made something up on their own.
I like the coins and as long as there are two people with deep pockets, that find these coins interesting, there will be a market for them. I’m not someone in that group but the auction numbers speak for themselves.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I'd love to know how many Gold PRIVEY's will actually trade hands at higher prices.
I saw one dealer went out on a limg with at least 10 pieces maybe more.
I wouldnt want to hold that inventory at 35-40k per.
@coiner said:
I'd love to know how many Gold PRIVEY's will actually trade hands at higher prices.
I saw one dealer went out on a limg with at least 10 pieces maybe more.
I wouldnt want to hold that inventory at 35-40k per.
Agreed. I don't know for sure, but my bet would be that they bought them for clients for a pre-arranged commission, or have curated lists of well heeled clients to whom they know they can sell.
There would be no other reason for dealers to tie up so much capital in so many pieces, with such an uncertain resale market above and beyond the retail market being established real-time at the auction, on pure speculation. That's just not how they guys make their money or run their businesses.
The before auction Greysheet indications, which pretty much conformed to where you and @jmlanzaf would have been comfortable taking a shot, is a pretty reliable indicator or where run of the mill dealers would have been comfortable, in the words of the great, @jmlanzaf, engaging in retail arbitrage. As prices rose to double, triple and more of those levels, it's hard to believe any dealer who knows what they are doing would risk capital on pure speculation, without knowing they have ready, willing and able buyers lined up.
You're not going to learn whether, or at what level, those after market transactions took place unless you are on one of those dealer lists and receive a solicitation call. Those are not going to be what you see on eBay.
In fact, eBay really does not seem like a viable venue to sell $50K+ modern Mint issues, so I'm not sure what to make of those listings, other than some folks looking for a quick and easy score. I never did understand who would be the buyer on eBay at $50K, rather than at SB for $35K. Still don't, and I'm not sure any reported eBay transactions are real.
@GoldFinger1969 said:
Do I take it that some of the FH's are DCAM's that look jet-black but others look regular gold ? Or is that the lighting in the picture ?
Yes and yes.
All the FHs are DCAM. The color of the fields in each pic depends on what they are reflecting.
@GoldFinger1969 said:
Do I take it that some of the FH's are DCAM's that look jet-black but others look regular gold ? Or is that the lighting in the picture ?
It’s just how the pictures are made. This was mine:
Pop Report as of December 21, 2024.
Only 34 coins graded by PCGS since December 18. 90.2% of the total population is graded PR70DCAM.
With deference to @wondercoin, the population of the Baltimore FDI has added another coin to its population.
.................went from 10 to 11.
Edited to add: When and will the total population hit 2k?
@NJCoin said:
I do agree with you that they don't worry "over a few unhappy campers." I sincerely hope you do not join their ranks if the missing medals and coins make a future appearance in another product. Because I think that is a distinct possibility, as opposed to their leaving money on the table to support the secondary market, and not reducing Mintage Limits to reflect that decision.
Is there any precedent for this being done in the past ?
It's one thing to strike more coins than announced when the item is first released....but to create NEW coins months or years later would seem moronic. The amount of $$$ generated for The Mint relative to the size of the black eye their reputation would get would seem to me to be not worth it.
@MsMorrisine said:
photographic techniques are used to make the fields black
Are you saying they don't look that way in-hand ?
Here's why I asked.....these show NO relectivity/blackness at all. But the labels clearly said DCAM/UCAM so I guess whoever took the pics didn't care about showing the ink-jet black fields.
@NJCoin said:
I do agree with you that they don't worry "over a few unhappy campers." I sincerely hope you do not join their ranks if the missing medals and coins make a future appearance in another product. Because I think that is a distinct possibility, as opposed to their leaving money on the table to support the secondary market, and not reducing Mintage Limits to reflect that decision.
Is there any precedent for this being done in the past ?
It's one thing to strike more coins than announced when the item is first released....but to create NEW coins months or years later would seem moronic. The amount of $$$ generated for The Mint relative to the size of the black eye their reputation would get would seem to me to be not worth it.
The Mint has always struck various medals over the course of years. Of course, those did not have mintage limits,
@NJCoin said:
I do agree with you that they don't worry "over a few unhappy campers." I sincerely hope you do not join their ranks if the missing medals and coins make a future appearance in another product. Because I think that is a distinct possibility, as opposed to their leaving money on the table to support the secondary market, and not reducing Mintage Limits to reflect that decision.
_Is there any precedent for this being done in the past ? _
It's one thing to strike more coins than announced when the item is first released....but to create NEW coins months or years later would seem moronic. The amount of $$$ generated for The Mint relative to the size of the black eye their reputation would get would seem to me to be not worth it.
No. But there is also no precedent to not produce up to the limit when there is demand. As moronic as it might seem to sell more later, it was even more moronic to just leave those $$$ on the table at initial release, yet that's exactly what they seem to have done.
TBD. The reason I think this is a distinct possibility is that the first statement from the Mint to Coin World specifically said all 17.5K gold coins had already been struck. That's important because they cannot go back in subsequent years to strike more.
They later said "never mind, we are sold out at 10K," which is true, as far as the revised Product Limit goes, but did not address the discrepancy between the two statements. Which only told me that they did not want to go there. Not that the missing 7.5K were not minted, and presently sitting in a warehouse.
They made no such statements with respect to the silver medal, other than to say initial sales went so well that they decided to cut them off, which made absolutely no sense. The fact remains that they knew all along they'd only be offering 50K for sale, since that's the amount they made and seeded with the privys.
Why the secrecy? Why not just announce 50K, or revise the announcement to 50K after the decision was made, and before the release date? Same with the 10K gold coins.
A distinct possibility is because they plan to release more in a future product, but are not yet ready to announce it, since it's more than a year away. They can make medals whenever they want, and they presently have unused authorization to make another 25K. So, for now, I'm going with that.
Maybe I'll turn out to be brilliant. Maybe not so much. Time will tell.
But they already have multiple black eyes, and don't seem to care, so I honestly don't think that will enter into the calculus. An unsold 100K of each of 6 different 2024 Morgan and Peace Dollars, after an uncalled for price increase, is not a good look. It didn't occur to them to reduce Mintage or Product Limits there, even after the first 2024 release landed with a thud.
Neither is their recent announcement regarding clad products. If there is negative feedback after the release of a 2026 Best of the Mint set that includes the missing 2024 FH products, we'll be able to add that to the list.
You can make the coin look both black and gold in hand, depending on how you hold it and how the light is reflecting. It’s really stunning. The listing you posted are not actual pictures of the coin, they are computer generated images.
@MsMorrisine said:
photographic techniques are used to make the fields black
Are you saying they don't look that way in-hand ?
Here's why I asked.....these show NO relectivity/blackness at all. But the labels clearly said DCAM/UCAM so I guess whoever took the pics didn't care about showing the ink-jet black fields.
From Greysheet.....the folks that grossly underestimated the auction prices for the Au FH coins.
In the firm’s third collaboration with the United States Mint, Stack’s Bowers Galleries has again made numismatic history with their sale of the Historic 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair High Relief Gold Coins featuring the “230” Privy Mark. The entire mintage of 230 pieces was consigned to the December 12, 2024 sale, and after several hours of intense bidding action, the prices realized totaled $8,230,000.
The coins were struck to commemorate the 230th anniversary of America’s first silver dollar—the 1794 Flowing Hair dollar. The modern pieces serve as a faithful homage to the original dollar, featuring obverse and reverse designs re-sculpted by Mint medallic artists and exquisitely rendered on a 1-ounce planchet of .9999 fine gold. Produced at the United States Mint facility in West Point, these special Privy Mark gold coins were identified and sold in order of their striking, 1 to 230, and the Stack’s Bowers Galleries auction offered collectors their only means to acquire one of these iconic pieces.
"It is an incredible honor for Stack’s Bowers Galleries to work with the United States Mint once again on such a historic project," said Brian Kendrella, President of Stack’s Bowers Galleries. "The 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair High Relief Gold Coins embody the timeless appeal of American numismatics, celebrating both the artistry of the original 1794 design and the craftsmanship of these modern masterpieces. Collectors’ enthusiastic response to this sale, culminating in an astonishing $8.23 million total, highlights the enduring reverence for these iconic designs. We are immensely proud of the role we played in connecting passionate collectors with these extraordinary coins and in celebrating this important milestone in U.S. Mint history."
Stack’s Bowers Galleries has served as auctioneer for the United States Mint twice before. In July 2002 (in conjunction with Sotheby’s), the firm sold the only example of the 1933 double eagle that is legal for private ownership, which at the time set a record for most valuable coin ever sold in auction, realizing $7.59 million. More recently, Stack’s Bowers Galleries was selected to sell the special 35th Anniversary American Eagle at Dusk and at Dawn coins in September 2022, which realized more than $4.6 million.
@Goldbully said:
From Greysheet.....the folks that grossly underestimated the auction pries for the Au FH coins.
In the firm’s third collaboration with the United States Mint, Stack’s Bowers Galleries has again made numismatic history with their sale of the Historic 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair High Relief Gold Coins featuring the “230” Privy Mark. The entire mintage of 230 pieces was consigned to the December 12, 2024 sale, and after several hours of intense bidding action, the prices realized totaled $8,230,000.
The coins were struck to commemorate the 230th anniversary of America’s first silver dollar—the 1794 Flowing Hair dollar. The modern pieces serve as a faithful homage to the original dollar, featuring obverse and reverse designs re-sculpted by Mint medallic artists and exquisitely rendered on a 1-ounce planchet of .9999 fine gold. Produced at the United States Mint facility in West Point, these special Privy Mark gold coins were identified and sold in order of their striking, 1 to 230, and the Stack’s Bowers Galleries auction offered collectors their only means to acquire one of these iconic pieces.
"It is an incredible honor for Stack’s Bowers Galleries to work with the United States Mint once again on such a historic project," said Brian Kendrella, President of Stack’s Bowers Galleries. "The 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair High Relief Gold Coins embody the timeless appeal of American numismatics, celebrating both the artistry of the original 1794 design and the craftsmanship of these modern masterpieces. Collectors’ enthusiastic response to this sale, culminating in an astonishing $8.23 million total, highlights the enduring reverence for these iconic designs. We are immensely proud of the role we played in connecting passionate collectors with these extraordinary coins and in celebrating this important milestone in U.S. Mint history."
Stack’s Bowers Galleries has served as auctioneer for the United States Mint twice before. In July 2002 (in conjunction with Sotheby’s), the firm sold the only example of the 1933 double eagle that is legal for private ownership, which at the time set a record for most valuable coin ever sold in auction, realizing $7.59 million. More recently, Stack’s Bowers Galleries was selected to sell the special 35th Anniversary American Eagle at Dusk and at Dawn coins in September 2022, which realized more than $4.6 million.
I would suspect that Greysheet did not "estimate" anything. That is simply your assumption. That was quite likely the open bid on CDN Exchange prior to the auction
Yes, because the only prices before the 12th would have been dealer bids on the exchange. A lot of Greysheet prices are determined that way.
They could have incorporated a caveat.....*TBD after December 12th Stacks Bowers auctions.
They don't need a "caveat". They could have not published any price, of course. A lot of their pricing is based on open bid/ask prices coupled with auction results.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. My point is that it is NOT a Greysheet "estimate", it's the dealer bids. I could go on the exchange tonight and change the price of a coin sinply by placing a bid significantly higher than any prior sale.
@coiner said:
I'd love to know how many Gold PRIVEY's will actually trade hands at higher prices.
I saw one dealer went out on a limg with at least 10 pieces maybe more.
I wouldnt want to hold that inventory at 35-40k per.
Agreed. I don't know for sure, but my bet would be that they bought them for clients for a pre-arranged commission, or have curated lists of well heeled clients to whom they know they can sell.
There would be no other reason for dealers to tie up so much capital in so many pieces, with such an uncertain resale market above and beyond the retail market being established real-time at the auction, on pure speculation. That's just not how they guys make their money or run their businesses.
The before auction Greysheet indications, which pretty much conformed to where you and @jmlanzaf would have been comfortable taking a shot, is a pretty reliable indicator or where run of the mill dealers would have been comfortable, in the words of the great, @jmlanzaf, engaging in retail arbitrage. As prices rose to double, triple and more of those levels, it's hard to believe any dealer who knows what they are doing would risk capital on pure speculation, without knowing they have ready, willing and able buyers lined up.
You're not going to learn whether, or at what level, those after market transactions took place unless you are on one of those dealer lists and receive a solicitation call. Those are not going to be what you see on eBay.
In fact, eBay really does not seem like a viable venue to sell $50K+ modern Mint issues, so I'm not sure what to make of those listings, other than some folks looking for a quick and easy score. I never did understand who would be the buyer on eBay at $50K, rather than at SB for $35K. Still don't, and I'm not sure any reported eBay transactions are real.
We will eventually see resales of Gold Priveys at the major auction houses. including Great Collections.
@coiner said:
I'd love to know how many Gold PRIVEY's will actually trade hands at higher prices.
I saw one dealer went out on a limg with at least 10 pieces maybe more.
I wouldnt want to hold that inventory at 35-40k per.
Agreed. I don't know for sure, but my bet would be that they bought them for clients for a pre-arranged commission, or have curated lists of well heeled clients to whom they know they can sell.
There would be no other reason for dealers to tie up so much capital in so many pieces, with such an uncertain resale market above and beyond the retail market being established real-time at the auction, on pure speculation. That's just not how they guys make their money or run their businesses.
The before auction Greysheet indications, which pretty much conformed to where you and @jmlanzaf would have been comfortable taking a shot, is a pretty reliable indicator or where run of the mill dealers would have been comfortable, in the words of the great, @jmlanzaf, engaging in retail arbitrage. As prices rose to double, triple and more of those levels, it's hard to believe any dealer who knows what they are doing would risk capital on pure speculation, without knowing they have ready, willing and able buyers lined up.
You're not going to learn whether, or at what level, those after market transactions took place unless you are on one of those dealer lists and receive a solicitation call. Those are not going to be what you see on eBay.
In fact, eBay really does not seem like a viable venue to sell $50K+ modern Mint issues, so I'm not sure what to make of those listings, other than some folks looking for a quick and easy score. I never did understand who would be the buyer on eBay at $50K, rather than at SB for $35K. Still don't, and I'm not sure any reported eBay transactions are real.
We will eventually see resales of Gold Priveys at the major auction houses. including Great Collections.
Then we will see how they perform.
If i had one, I would not risk an open auction. You'd do better with a private sale, in my opinion.
"The value ($40k+) just isn't there."
But it most certainly is for those retail customers that wanted them. Middle men(for the most part) were promptly put in their place that day.
Seems to me that that, is what some folks were saying on 12/11 to @NJCoin . And that includes those greedy Grey Wholesale dealer bidders & eBay flipsters. It would've been a sight to see those 'experts' that were predicting the hammer at $10-15k for those Privies quickly sidelined during bidding, then trying to raise their open jaws off of the floor by days end lol.
@Rc5280 said:
"The value ($40k+) just isn't there."
But it most certainly is for those retail customers that wanted them. Middle men(for the most part) were promptly put in their place that day.
Seems to me that that, is what some folks were saying on 12/11 to @NJCoin . And that includes those greedy Grey Wholesale dealer bidders & eBay flipsters. It would've been a sight to see those 'experts' that were predicting the hammer at $10-15k for those Privies quickly sidelined during bidding, then trying to raise their open jaws off of the floor by days end lol.
I predicted $10 to $15k. I was not at all shocked, however, during the sale as I always believed higher prices were possible. All the dealers i know didn't have their jaws drop, they just shook their heads. Just because they sold for $35k doesn't mean the right number isn't $15k. FOMO is a real thing.
@Rc5280 said:
"The value ($40k+) just isn't there."
But it most certainly is for those retail customers that wanted them. Middle men(for the most part) were promptly put in their place that day.
Seems to me that that, is what some folks were saying on 12/11 to @NJCoin . And that includes those greedy Grey Wholesale dealer bidders & eBay flipsters. It would've been a sight to see those 'experts' that were predicting the hammer at $10-15k for those Privies quickly sidelined during bidding, then trying to raise their open jaws off of the floor by days end lol.
If you think the end consumers actually bought the Gold Privey's - you are dreaming. I would estimate less than 10% went to end retail buyers.
The rest went to dealers hoping to mark up and make their profit.
That is where I think they will get burned. Not the dealer who placed one or two arranged with wealthier clients, but for those speculating and bought 10+.
And there are dealers who bought 10+. Obviously, much of that is on "time" - meaning they were extended credit by Stacks.
I still think these will settle much lower. I wouldnt be surprised to see these trading hands in one year at much lower levels (a loss to the original auction prices); probably in the 20's somewhere - which I still think is too high.
@Rc5280 said:
"The value ($40k+) just isn't there."
But it most certainly is for those retail customers that wanted them. Middle men(for the most part) were promptly put in their place that day.
Seems to me that that, is what some folks were saying on 12/11 to @NJCoin . And that includes those greedy Grey Wholesale dealer bidders & eBay flipsters. It would've been a sight to see those 'experts' that were predicting the hammer at $10-15k for those Privies quickly sidelined during bidding, then trying to raise their open jaws off of the floor by days end lol.
If you think the end consumers actually bought the Gold Privey's - you are dreaming. I would estimate less than 10% went to end retail buyers.
Then where are they? What dealers have them listed for sale? I haven't seen any.
@Rc5280 said:
"The value ($40k+) just isn't there."
But it most certainly is for those retail customers that wanted them. Middle men(for the most part) were promptly put in their place that day.
Seems to me that that, is what some folks were saying on 12/11 to @NJCoin . And that includes those greedy Grey Wholesale dealer bidders & eBay flipsters. It would've been a sight to see those 'experts' that were predicting the hammer at $10-15k for those Privies quickly sidelined during bidding, then trying to raise their open jaws off of the floor by days end lol.
If you think the end consumers actually bought the Gold Privey's - you are dreaming. I would estimate less than 10% went to end retail buyers.
Then where are they? What dealers have them listed for sale? I haven't seen any.
Agreed. Pretty sure the dealers that participated in the auction had buyers lined up, and did not take down 90% of the sale on spec at those prices. This is the fundamental disconnect for those who thought there was not enough money in the world to support 230 of anything modern being able to be sold at anything approaching the prices realized.
Turns out that it was a retail, not wholesale auction. Expertly conducted and marketed on a global basis. And that there is a lot more money in the world than some people think.
Whether it was dealers or individual consumers doing the actual bidding, the bidding represented full retail, not including whatever markup a dealer might charge for auction representation. All that's left now is a few would-be flippers taking their shot on eBay. I doubt they will get anything near what they seek, due to the proximity to the SB auction, the lower end venue (eBay), and the insane markup they seek on what is already a very fully valued super premium modern Mint product.
@Rc5280 said:
"The value ($40k+) just isn't there."
But it most certainly is for those retail customers that wanted them. Middle men(for the most part) were promptly put in their place that day.
Seems to me that that, is what some folks were saying on 12/11 to @NJCoin . And that includes those greedy Grey Wholesale dealer bidders & eBay flipsters. It would've been a sight to see those 'experts' that were predicting the hammer at $10-15k for those Privies quickly sidelined during bidding, then trying to raise their open jaws off of the floor by days end lol.
Other than the fact that the coins sold for far more than the initial CDN bids that were posted, why did you label those who posted the bids, “greedy”?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Rc5280 said:
"The value ($40k+) just isn't there."
But it most certainly is for those retail customers that wanted them. Middle men(for the most part) were promptly put in their place that day.
Seems to me that that, is what some folks were saying on 12/11 to @NJCoin . And that includes those greedy Grey Wholesale dealer bidders & eBay flipsters. It would've been a sight to see those 'experts' that were predicting the hammer at $10-15k for those Privies quickly sidelined during bidding, then trying to raise their open jaws off of the floor by days end lol.
If you think the end consumers actually bought the Gold Privey's - you are dreaming. I would estimate less than 10% went to end retail buyers.
Then where are they? What dealers have them listed for sale? I haven't seen any.
They have been listed on ebay the same day as the auction.
You will see one or two sellers have multiples.
"why did you label those who posted the bids, “greedy”?"
Nothing personal if you are a Grey CDN bidder.
I find it extremely difficult to believe that the exchange was that naive to know that this was a retail auction geared towards collectors, given their wildly conservative bid entries.
How about 'self serving', instead of greedy. Better?
@Rc5280 said:
"why did you label those who posted the bids, “greedy”?"
Nothing personal if you are a Grey CDN bidder.
I find it extremely difficult to believe that the exchange was that naive to know that this was a retail auction geared towards collectors, given their wildly conservative bid entries.
How about 'self serving', instead of greedy. Better?
I’m not a CDN bidder and didn’t take it personally. But posting bids on items with no track record and having them turn out to be way too low, doesn’t make someone greedy or self serving.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes, because the only prices before the 12th would have been dealer bids on the exchange. A lot of Greysheet prices are determined that way.
They could have incorporated a caveat.....*TBD after December 12th Stacks Bowers auctions.
That’s not how the CDN operates, so they had no reason to do that.
Their price levels that were listed prior to the sale of the coins were based on bids, not estimates. And once there was sales data, those sales were taken into account in the updated prices.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Rc5280 said:
"why did you label those who posted the bids, “greedy”?"
Nothing personal if you are a Grey CDN bidder.
I find it extremely difficult to believe that the exchange was that naive to know that this was a retail auction geared towards collectors, given their wildly conservative bid entries.
How about 'self serving', instead of greedy. Better?
How is it self serving? It doesn't change the outcome of the auction.
@Rc5280 said:
"The value ($40k+) just isn't there."
But it most certainly is for those retail customers that wanted them. Middle men(for the most part) were promptly put in their place that day.
Seems to me that that, is what some folks were saying on 12/11 to @NJCoin . And that includes those greedy Grey Wholesale dealer bidders & eBay flipsters. It would've been a sight to see those 'experts' that were predicting the hammer at $10-15k for those Privies quickly sidelined during bidding, then trying to raise their open jaws off of the floor by days end lol.
If you think the end consumers actually bought the Gold Privey's - you are dreaming. I would estimate less than 10% went to end retail buyers.
Then where are they? What dealers have them listed for sale? I haven't seen any.
Agreed. Pretty sure the dealers that participated in the auction had buyers lined up, and did not take down 90% of the sale on spec at those prices. This is the fundamental disconnect for those who thought there was not enough money in the world to support 230 of anything modern being able to be sold at anything approaching the prices realized.
Turns out that it was a retail, not wholesale auction. Expertly conducted and marketed on a global basis. And that there is a lot more money in the world than some people think.
Whether it was dealers or individual consumers doing the actual bidding, the bidding represented full retail, not including whatever markup a dealer might charge for auction representation. All that's left now is a few would-be flippers taking their shot on eBay. I doubt they will get anything near what they seek, due to the proximity to the SB auction, the lower end venue (eBay), and the insane markup they seek on what is already a very fully valued super premium modern Mint product.
The fact that the hammer prices were so similar actually does suggest significant dealer involvement.
@Rc5280 said:
"why did you label those who posted the bids, “greedy”?"
Nothing personal if you are a Grey CDN bidder.
I find it extremely difficult to believe that the exchange was that naive to know that this was a retail auction geared towards collectors, given their wildly conservative bid entries.
How about 'self serving', instead of greedy. Better?
How is it self serving? It doesn't change the outcome of the auction.
@Rc5280 said:
"The value ($40k+) just isn't there."
But it most certainly is for those retail customers that wanted them. Middle men(for the most part) were promptly put in their place that day.
Seems to me that that, is what some folks were saying on 12/11 to @NJCoin . And that includes those greedy Grey Wholesale dealer bidders & eBay flipsters. It would've been a sight to see those 'experts' that were predicting the hammer at $10-15k for those Privies quickly sidelined during bidding, then trying to raise their open jaws off of the floor by days end lol.
If you think the end consumers actually bought the Gold Privey's - you are dreaming. I would estimate less than 10% went to end retail buyers.
Then where are they? What dealers have them listed for sale? I haven't seen any.
Agreed. Pretty sure the dealers that participated in the auction had buyers lined up, and did not take down 90% of the sale on spec at those prices. This is the fundamental disconnect for those who thought there was not enough money in the world to support 230 of anything modern being able to be sold at anything approaching the prices realized.
Turns out that it was a retail, not wholesale auction. Expertly conducted and marketed on a global basis. And that there is a lot more money in the world than some people think.
Whether it was dealers or individual consumers doing the actual bidding, the bidding represented full retail, not including whatever markup a dealer might charge for auction representation. All that's left now is a few would-be flippers taking their shot on eBay. I doubt they will get anything near what they seek, due to the proximity to the SB auction, the lower end venue (eBay), and the insane markup they seek on what is already a very fully valued super premium modern Mint product.
The fact that the hammer prices were so similar actually does suggest significant dealer involvement.
I have no opinion on that one way or the other. Either they bid to a number, after which retail took over, or they bid to a number at which they had buyers.
Seriously doubt they bid to a number to hold hundreds in inventory, hoping for the best. Hammer prices were similar because the lots were similar. Only stands to reason, with or without dealer involvement. Significant or otherwise.
@Rc5280 said:
"why did you label those who posted the bids, “greedy”?"
Nothing personal if you are a Grey CDN bidder.
I find it extremely difficult to believe that the exchange was that naive to know that this was a retail auction geared towards collectors, given their wildly conservative bid entries.
How about 'self serving', instead of greedy. Better?
How is it self serving? It doesn't change the outcome of the auction.
@Rc5280 said:
"The value ($40k+) just isn't there."
But it most certainly is for those retail customers that wanted them. Middle men(for the most part) were promptly put in their place that day.
Seems to me that that, is what some folks were saying on 12/11 to @NJCoin . And that includes those greedy Grey Wholesale dealer bidders & eBay flipsters. It would've been a sight to see those 'experts' that were predicting the hammer at $10-15k for those Privies quickly sidelined during bidding, then trying to raise their open jaws off of the floor by days end lol.
If you think the end consumers actually bought the Gold Privey's - you are dreaming. I would estimate less than 10% went to end retail buyers.
Then where are they? What dealers have them listed for sale? I haven't seen any.
Agreed. Pretty sure the dealers that participated in the auction had buyers lined up, and did not take down 90% of the sale on spec at those prices. This is the fundamental disconnect for those who thought there was not enough money in the world to support 230 of anything modern being able to be sold at anything approaching the prices realized.
Turns out that it was a retail, not wholesale auction. Expertly conducted and marketed on a global basis. And that there is a lot more money in the world than some people think.
Whether it was dealers or individual consumers doing the actual bidding, the bidding represented full retail, not including whatever markup a dealer might charge for auction representation. All that's left now is a few would-be flippers taking their shot on eBay. I doubt they will get anything near what they seek, due to the proximity to the SB auction, the lower end venue (eBay), and the insane markup they seek on what is already a very fully valued super premium modern Mint product.
The fact that the hammer prices were so similar actually does suggest significant dealer involvement.
I have no opinion on that one way or the other. Either they bid to a number, after which retail took over, or they bid to a number at which they had buyers.
Seriously doubt they bid to a number to hold hundreds in inventory, hoping for the best. Hammer prices were similar because the lots were similar. Only stands to reason, with or without dealer involvement. Significant or otherwise.
@MsMorrisine said:
is what is being said is that cac not stickering a coin is considered self-serving?
How did you come up with that?
There was no mention of CAC and the comment pertaining to “self serving” was about initial CDN prices being far lower than what the coins sold for.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Our flagship publications of the Greysheet, and Greensheet represent wholesale market values for U.S. coins.
The pricing editors at CDN rely on a substantial amount of source material to determine valuations... Our team seeks out information from primary data sources like live auctions, CDN Exchange, and input from thousands of dealers with first-hand experience. No other pricing source offers our level of scrutiny.
The pricing of coins and currency in our publications is derived by our team using an informed mix of data from the online dealer-only trading networks of CDN Exchange and Certified Coin Exchange, auction prices realized, specialist dealer feedback, dealer wholesale buy lists, and more. While our system is proprietary, we welcome feedback on prices which we may need to reexamine.
The prices listed in our database are intended to be used as an indication only. Users are strongly encouraged to seek multiple sources of pricing before making a final determination of value.
‘’we welcome feedback on prices …”
‘’No other pricing source offers our level of scrutiny.’’
Dear John F / M Feld: From my interpretation of the myriad comments surrounding the pricing of the FH Gold privy coins - the optics of the situation were not all that flattering to demonstrating the intense level of scrutiny that separates the GS from every other pricing source. What turned out to be the lowball starting prices listed for the gold privy coins out of the box (and ahead of a single coin ever trading) were viewed by some as a ploy by the very dealers the GS relies upon to get “weaker sisters” (and particularly collectors) to be scared to bid much above the GS levels. I can totally understand that sentiment (can you?) whether I agree with it or not. Why not just “own” the fact that the starting pricing was not exactly what the GS had hoped those prices to be (I.e. very accurate) and that the GS has learned from the experience. I’m sure a post like that would have a very high degree of “likes”.
Just my 2 cents
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Wow, I just got an offer to purchase a FH Au w/privy coin #156 in an eBay private offer.
Please don't tell anyone since this is a private offer, only for me. 🤫
Comments
This ^^^. As I said, it's just a piece of paper. It's not made up, but it's also not tied to a specific coin.
Why people are paying crazy premiums for them on eBay is a real mystery to me, since the director will basically sign anything you put in front of her at a show.
I get people getting excited over coins with a provenance and/or an attribution. I don't get people paying for autographs from government bureaucrats.
I get people getting excited over 230 gold privy coins, with a provenance and a specific coin number attribution right on the slab, accompanied by a matching signed, numbered COA. I don't get why anyone would think anyone else would get excited over matching it to a signed, numbered COA from another, albeit related, product, where that piece of paper is not tied to a specific medal.
That said, I've been wrong before and will be again, so, who knows? I am not the target market at $34K for the gold coin, nor for the silver privy at $3K+, or at $7K+ with the signed piece of paper.
So I'm CERTAINLY not the target for the pair at $90K. If someone else thinks it's worth owning at even one half of that price, more power to them, but I just don't see it.
Thank you! I hadn't realized that.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I like the coins and as long as there are two people with deep pockets, that find these coins interesting, there will be a market for them. I’m not someone in that group but the auction numbers speak for themselves.
Do I take it that some of the FH's are DCAM's that look jet-black but others look regular gold ? Or is that the lighting in the picture ?
I'd love to know how many Gold PRIVEY's will actually trade hands at higher prices.
I saw one dealer went out on a limg with at least 10 pieces maybe more.
I wouldnt want to hold that inventory at 35-40k per.
Agreed. I don't know for sure, but my bet would be that they bought them for clients for a pre-arranged commission, or have curated lists of well heeled clients to whom they know they can sell.
There would be no other reason for dealers to tie up so much capital in so many pieces, with such an uncertain resale market above and beyond the retail market being established real-time at the auction, on pure speculation. That's just not how they guys make their money or run their businesses.
The before auction Greysheet indications, which pretty much conformed to where you and @jmlanzaf would have been comfortable taking a shot, is a pretty reliable indicator or where run of the mill dealers would have been comfortable, in the words of the great, @jmlanzaf, engaging in retail arbitrage. As prices rose to double, triple and more of those levels, it's hard to believe any dealer who knows what they are doing would risk capital on pure speculation, without knowing they have ready, willing and able buyers lined up.
You're not going to learn whether, or at what level, those after market transactions took place unless you are on one of those dealer lists and receive a solicitation call. Those are not going to be what you see on eBay.
In fact, eBay really does not seem like a viable venue to sell $50K+ modern Mint issues, so I'm not sure what to make of those listings, other than some folks looking for a quick and easy score. I never did understand who would be the buyer on eBay at $50K, rather than at SB for $35K. Still don't, and I'm not sure any reported eBay transactions are real.
photographic techniques are used to make the fields black
Yes and yes.
All the FHs are DCAM. The color of the fields in each pic depends on what they are reflecting.
It’s just how the pictures are made. This was mine:
Pop Report as of December 21, 2024.
Only 34 coins graded by PCGS since December 18.
90.2% of the total population is graded PR70DCAM.
With deference to @wondercoin, the population of the Baltimore FDI has added another coin to its population.
.................went from 10 to 11.
Edited to add: When and will the total population hit 2k?
Is there any precedent for this being done in the past ?
It's one thing to strike more coins than announced when the item is first released....but to create NEW coins months or years later would seem moronic. The amount of $$$ generated for The Mint relative to the size of the black eye their reputation would get would seem to me to be not worth it.
Are you saying they don't look that way in-hand ?
Here's why I asked.....these show NO relectivity/blackness at all. But the labels clearly said DCAM/UCAM so I guess whoever took the pics didn't care about showing the ink-jet black fields.
Anyway, thanks for clearing it up guys !
deleted
The Mint has always struck various medals over the course of years. Of course, those did not have mintage limits,
No. But there is also no precedent to not produce up to the limit when there is demand. As moronic as it might seem to sell more later, it was even more moronic to just leave those $$$ on the table at initial release, yet that's exactly what they seem to have done.
TBD. The reason I think this is a distinct possibility is that the first statement from the Mint to Coin World specifically said all 17.5K gold coins had already been struck. That's important because they cannot go back in subsequent years to strike more.
They later said "never mind, we are sold out at 10K," which is true, as far as the revised Product Limit goes, but did not address the discrepancy between the two statements. Which only told me that they did not want to go there. Not that the missing 7.5K were not minted, and presently sitting in a warehouse.
They made no such statements with respect to the silver medal, other than to say initial sales went so well that they decided to cut them off, which made absolutely no sense. The fact remains that they knew all along they'd only be offering 50K for sale, since that's the amount they made and seeded with the privys.
Why the secrecy? Why not just announce 50K, or revise the announcement to 50K after the decision was made, and before the release date? Same with the 10K gold coins.
A distinct possibility is because they plan to release more in a future product, but are not yet ready to announce it, since it's more than a year away. They can make medals whenever they want, and they presently have unused authorization to make another 25K. So, for now, I'm going with that.
Maybe I'll turn out to be brilliant. Maybe not so much. Time will tell.
But they already have multiple black eyes, and don't seem to care, so I honestly don't think that will enter into the calculus. An unsold 100K of each of 6 different 2024 Morgan and Peace Dollars, after an uncalled for price increase, is not a good look. It didn't occur to them to reduce Mintage or Product Limits there, even after the first 2024 release landed with a thud.
Neither is their recent announcement regarding clad products. If there is negative feedback after the release of a 2026 Best of the Mint set that includes the missing 2024 FH products, we'll be able to add that to the list.
>
Those last 2 pictures are outstanding!
Don't forget the incused letterings on the edge and the thickness of it. Anyone using it as a pocketpiece?
You can make the coin look both black and gold in hand, depending on how you hold it and how the light is reflecting. It’s really stunning. The listing you posted are not actual pictures of the coin, they are computer generated images.
"The listing you posted are not actual pictures of the coin, they are computer generated images."
Bingo.
From Greysheet.....the folks that grossly underestimated the auction prices for the Au FH coins.
In the firm’s third collaboration with the United States Mint, Stack’s Bowers Galleries has again made numismatic history with their sale of the Historic 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair High Relief Gold Coins featuring the “230” Privy Mark. The entire mintage of 230 pieces was consigned to the December 12, 2024 sale, and after several hours of intense bidding action, the prices realized totaled $8,230,000.
The coins were struck to commemorate the 230th anniversary of America’s first silver dollar—the 1794 Flowing Hair dollar. The modern pieces serve as a faithful homage to the original dollar, featuring obverse and reverse designs re-sculpted by Mint medallic artists and exquisitely rendered on a 1-ounce planchet of .9999 fine gold. Produced at the United States Mint facility in West Point, these special Privy Mark gold coins were identified and sold in order of their striking, 1 to 230, and the Stack’s Bowers Galleries auction offered collectors their only means to acquire one of these iconic pieces.
"It is an incredible honor for Stack’s Bowers Galleries to work with the United States Mint once again on such a historic project," said Brian Kendrella, President of Stack’s Bowers Galleries. "The 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair High Relief Gold Coins embody the timeless appeal of American numismatics, celebrating both the artistry of the original 1794 design and the craftsmanship of these modern masterpieces. Collectors’ enthusiastic response to this sale, culminating in an astonishing $8.23 million total, highlights the enduring reverence for these iconic designs. We are immensely proud of the role we played in connecting passionate collectors with these extraordinary coins and in celebrating this important milestone in U.S. Mint history."
Stack’s Bowers Galleries has served as auctioneer for the United States Mint twice before. In July 2002 (in conjunction with Sotheby’s), the firm sold the only example of the 1933 double eagle that is legal for private ownership, which at the time set a record for most valuable coin ever sold in auction, realizing $7.59 million. More recently, Stack’s Bowers Galleries was selected to sell the special 35th Anniversary American Eagle at Dusk and at Dawn coins in September 2022, which realized more than $4.6 million.
GreySheet Link
I would suspect that Greysheet did not "estimate" anything. That is simply your assumption. That was quite likely the open bid on CDN Exchange prior to the auction
From December 9th..........
From today, December 21st.
Yes, because the only prices before the 12th would have been dealer bids on the exchange. A lot of Greysheet prices are determined that way.
They could have incorporated a caveat.....*TBD after December 12th Stacks Bowers auctions.
They don't need a "caveat". They could have not published any price, of course. A lot of their pricing is based on open bid/ask prices coupled with auction results.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. My point is that it is NOT a Greysheet "estimate", it's the dealer bids. I could go on the exchange tonight and change the price of a coin sinply by placing a bid significantly higher than any prior sale.
We will eventually see resales of Gold Priveys at the major auction houses. including Great Collections.
Then we will see how they perform.
If i had one, I would not risk an open auction. You'd do better with a private sale, in my opinion.
Not everyone can do a private sale. We will see open auctions - and then we will see where these land.
The value ($40k+) just isnt there. I think these suffer in the coming months.
did the mint accomplish its mission?
Of course it did! It created a super premium product, and sold it at a super premium. Mission accomplished.
"The value ($40k+) just isn't there."
But it most certainly is for those retail customers that wanted them. Middle men(for the most part) were promptly put in their place that day.
Seems to me that that, is what some folks were saying on 12/11 to @NJCoin . And that includes those greedy Grey Wholesale dealer bidders & eBay flipsters. It would've been a sight to see those 'experts' that were predicting the hammer at $10-15k for those Privies quickly sidelined during bidding, then trying to raise their open jaws off of the floor by days end lol.
Everyone can do a private sale with the help of a dealer. Thus is a relatively thin market and auction results would likely be volatile.
I predicted $10 to $15k. I was not at all shocked, however, during the sale as I always believed higher prices were possible. All the dealers i know didn't have their jaws drop, they just shook their heads. Just because they sold for $35k doesn't mean the right number isn't $15k. FOMO is a real thing.
If you think the end consumers actually bought the Gold Privey's - you are dreaming. I would estimate less than 10% went to end retail buyers.
The rest went to dealers hoping to mark up and make their profit.
That is where I think they will get burned. Not the dealer who placed one or two arranged with wealthier clients, but for those speculating and bought 10+.
And there are dealers who bought 10+. Obviously, much of that is on "time" - meaning they were extended credit by Stacks.
I still think these will settle much lower. I wouldnt be surprised to see these trading hands in one year at much lower levels (a loss to the original auction prices); probably in the 20's somewhere - which I still think is too high.
Then where are they? What dealers have them listed for sale? I haven't seen any.
Agreed. Pretty sure the dealers that participated in the auction had buyers lined up, and did not take down 90% of the sale on spec at those prices. This is the fundamental disconnect for those who thought there was not enough money in the world to support 230 of anything modern being able to be sold at anything approaching the prices realized.
Turns out that it was a retail, not wholesale auction. Expertly conducted and marketed on a global basis. And that there is a lot more money in the world than some people think.
Whether it was dealers or individual consumers doing the actual bidding, the bidding represented full retail, not including whatever markup a dealer might charge for auction representation. All that's left now is a few would-be flippers taking their shot on eBay. I doubt they will get anything near what they seek, due to the proximity to the SB auction, the lower end venue (eBay), and the insane markup they seek on what is already a very fully valued super premium modern Mint product.
Other than the fact that the coins sold for far more than the initial CDN bids that were posted, why did you label those who posted the bids, “greedy”?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
They have been listed on ebay the same day as the auction.
You will see one or two sellers have multiples.
"why did you label those who posted the bids, “greedy”?"
Nothing personal if you are a Grey CDN bidder.
I find it extremely difficult to believe that the exchange was that naive to know that this was a retail auction geared towards collectors, given their wildly conservative bid entries.
How about 'self serving', instead of greedy. Better?
I’m not a CDN bidder and didn’t take it personally. But posting bids on items with no track record and having them turn out to be way too low, doesn’t make someone greedy or self serving.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That’s not how the CDN operates, so they had no reason to do that.
Their price levels that were listed prior to the sale of the coins were based on bids, not estimates. And once there was sales data, those sales were taken into account in the updated prices.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
How is it self serving? It doesn't change the outcome of the auction.
The fact that the hammer prices were so similar actually does suggest significant dealer involvement.
I have no opinion on that one way or the other. Either they bid to a number, after which retail took over, or they bid to a number at which they had buyers.
Seriously doubt they bid to a number to hold hundreds in inventory, hoping for the best. Hammer prices were similar because the lots were similar. Only stands to reason, with or without dealer involvement. Significant or otherwise.
I think it's probably the former.
is what is being said is that cac not stickering a coin is considered self-serving?
How did you come up with that?
There was no mention of CAC and the comment pertaining to “self serving” was about initial CDN prices being far lower than what the coins sold for.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
From Greysheet website:
Our flagship publications of the Greysheet, and Greensheet represent wholesale market values for U.S. coins.
The pricing editors at CDN rely on a substantial amount of source material to determine valuations... Our team seeks out information from primary data sources like live auctions, CDN Exchange, and input from thousands of dealers with first-hand experience. No other pricing source offers our level of scrutiny.
The pricing of coins and currency in our publications is derived by our team using an informed mix of data from the online dealer-only trading networks of CDN Exchange and Certified Coin Exchange, auction prices realized, specialist dealer feedback, dealer wholesale buy lists, and more. While our system is proprietary, we welcome feedback on prices which we may need to reexamine.
The prices listed in our database are intended to be used as an indication only. Users are strongly encouraged to seek multiple sources of pricing before making a final determination of value.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
‘’we welcome feedback on prices …”
‘’No other pricing source offers our level of scrutiny.’’
Dear John F / M Feld: From my interpretation of the myriad comments surrounding the pricing of the FH Gold privy coins - the optics of the situation were not all that flattering to demonstrating the intense level of scrutiny that separates the GS from every other pricing source. What turned out to be the lowball starting prices listed for the gold privy coins out of the box (and ahead of a single coin ever trading) were viewed by some as a ploy by the very dealers the GS relies upon to get “weaker sisters” (and particularly collectors) to be scared to bid much above the GS levels. I can totally understand that sentiment (can you?) whether I agree with it or not. Why not just “own” the fact that the starting pricing was not exactly what the GS had hoped those prices to be (I.e. very accurate) and that the GS has learned from the experience. I’m sure a post like that would have a very high degree of “likes”.
Just my 2 cents
Wondercoin.
Wow, I just got an offer to purchase a FH Au w/privy coin #156 in an eBay private offer.
Please don't tell anyone since this is a private offer, only for me. 🤫
eBay Link
Edited to add: Looking forward to the value of a PR69DCAM a year from now.