That would qualify if a customer keeps returning the product -a pattern of returns.
But if 10,000 different customers return I don't think that is enough for them to say no we won't accept returns any more in the middle of the game so to speak.
I interpret the first part of the sentence (highlighted in blue) to mean that the Mint has the right to 'limit/refuse' a return under any circumstance. For me, the balance of the sentence introduces a separate concept (i.e., charge a fee for excessive returns).
But, again, I am not a lawyer.
It will be interesting to see how the Mint handles this situation.
The entire paragraph is written in reference to "excessive returns". The mint accepts returns.
Not sure why anyone would have a question regarding this issue. However, if in doubt pick-up your phone and dial 1-800-USA-MINT and have them tell you the same.
I'm off work for two weeks with a bad back. If you tire of reading my posts I'll be back to work on the 21st.
@VanHalen said: Just got off the phone. Returns accepted for any reason (or no reason) with 7 days of receipt.
Me too.
The rep I spoke with said that the Mint had the right to limit or refuse a return under any circumstance. LOL.
NOT trying to start an argument here. In fact, haven't decided if I am going to even buy one of these yet. Just trying to to understand the existing rules, to the best of my ability, and their POTENTIAL application to this release.
@fathom said:
No they are stuck. They have to accept returns. Any discriminating effort to pick and choose who gets to buy product and who does not after following the return rules will not fly legally.
If you say so. I say they can change anything at any time, like they did for the clearance sale a few weeks ago.
I also say the T&Cs posted above already give them the right to refuse returns on these, although I agree it would be sleazy for them to do so as an alternative to giving everyone a clear disclosure ahead of time, again like they did for the clearance sale.
I don't see anything there that gives them the right to refuse returns if the rules are adhered. You will have to point that out specifically.
"The United States Mint reserves the right to limit or refuse a return ... ." Exactly which word in that sentence is giving you trouble? Because all of them together absolutely give them the right to refuse returns, even if the rules are adhered to. I agree it would be bad form, but they very well might feel justified after they see how people end up abusing the privilege with these.
TBD. I still think they might wake up before next Tuesday, and avoid what will be an absolute fiasco.
@fathom said:
No they are stuck. They have to accept returns. Any discriminating effort to pick and choose who gets to buy product and who does not after following the return rules will not fly legally.
If you say so. I say they can change anything at any time, like they did for the clearance sale a few weeks ago.
I also say the T&Cs posted above already give them the right to refuse returns on these, although I agree it would be sleazy for them to do so as an alternative to giving everyone a clear disclosure ahead of time, again like they did for the clearance sale.
I don't see anything there that gives them the right to refuse returns if the rules are adhered. You will have to point that out specifically.
That would qualify if a customer keeps returning the product -a pattern of returns.
But if 10,000 different customers return I don't think that is enough for them to say no we won't accept returns any more in the middle of the game so to speak.
I'm sorry, but I don't see that qualification in there. It seems very broad to me. The clause about charging a fee for excessive returns is separated from the right to refuse returns by the "or."
It doesn't really matter what you think. Or what I think. Or what any of us thinks.
The right to refuse any return, for any reason, is specifically reserved by them. Again, I agree it would be terrible form, and, if they want to do it, they should just say so now.
Maybe they will actually take 30-40K of them back, and give full refunds, after going to all this trouble to create a sell out of an otherwise overpriced product. Maybe not.
I just happen to think they will put their good intentions aside and screw people over after being forced to confront the reality of this being a big fail if they end up making, selling, and then taking back 40K medals in order to set 1794 medals with privy marks free, when they could have done the exact same thing by giving the medals with the privy marks their own product number, absent having to manufacture, ship, process a return, and then having to warehouse 40K medals that will sit unsold indefinitely.
Just wait and see. I'm just telling you what they will point to if they do it. The fact that people did not understand the plain meaning of a sentence written in plain English is not going to be their problem, if the alternative is going to be some mid level manager at the Mint having to explain to Ventris how they failed to take returns into account when coming up with this brilliant lottery.
@VanHalen said:
The entire paragraph is written in reference to "excessive returns". The mint accepts returns.
Not sure why anyone would have a question regarding this issue. However, if in doubt pick-up your phone and dial 1-800-USA-MINT and have them tell you the same.
I'm off work for two weeks with a bad back. If you tire of reading my posts I'll be back to work on the 21st.
Yes, the Mint accepts returns. But it also refuses the right to do so.
If you want to get hyper technical here, when half their sales end up coming back, they very well might consider that to be "excessive returns," even though each customer will only be returning one (or however many they managed to get their hands on through alt accounts).
No matter how you look at this, it makes no sense. Refusing returns after indicating they would not do so will be BS. As is giving people a free shot at a large prize, and accepting returns of losers after setting up this scheme specially to move 75K units in less than 24 hours.
As I've said previously, they could have easily just created a product with a 1794 mintage if all they wanted to do was create a frenzy, and a windfall for the lucky 1794. They also wanted to sell 73,206 overpriced medals, many of which would otherwise sit unsold, or never be made in the first place.
It makes absolutely no sense to take them back after going to all the trouble to create the artificial demand for them in the first place. Not to mention, for those of us that just want a few, the prices will be VERY reasonable of the secondary market if tens of thousands that would otherwise be sitting in a Mint warehouse are dumped on the market by the lottery losers.
@VanHalen said: Just got off the phone. Returns accepted for any reason (or no reason) with 7 days of receipt.
Me too.
The rep I spoke with said that the Mint had the right to limit or refuse a return under any circumstance. LOL.
NOT trying to start an argument here. In fact, haven't decided if I am going to even buy one of these yet. Just trying to to understand the existing rules, to the best of my ability, and their POTENTIAL application to this release.
I hope that your recuperation goes well.
Edited - Bolded a sentence in the quoted passage.
@MetroD -- I strongly advise you to get in anyway. The lottery portion is seriously under priced as compared to the potential upside, even if the medal is overpriced by $30 or so.
It's a no-brainer, which is why it will be a frenzy anyway, no matter they do with returns. I just wish they'd make clear that they won't accept returns, because that will drive away people who don't otherwise have any interest in the medal, and don't want to play a lottery with a 98% chance of them losing. Which would only make the website less nuts for the rest of us.
A lottery with a 0% chance of losing will draw all sorts out of the woodwork, and make the scene on the website far worse than it would otherwise be.
@VanHalen said: Just got off the phone. Returns accepted for any reason (or no reason) with 7 days of receipt.
Me too.
The rep I spoke with said that the Mint had the right to limit or refuse a return under any circumstance. LOL.
NOT trying to start an argument here. In fact, haven't decided if I am going to even buy one of these yet. Just trying to to understand the existing rules, to the best of my ability, and their POTENTIAL application to this release.
I hope that your recuperation goes well.
Edited - Bolded a sentence in the quoted passage.
Thanks for the well wishes. I bought a PCGS MS70 First Day of Issue with the flag label on eBay for $200. Always liked the PCGS stars and stripes First Strike label and this is essentially the same. Now about that sealed box coming next week?
@MetroD -- I strongly advise you to get in anyway. The lottery portion is seriously under priced as compared to the potential upside, even if the medal is overpriced by $30 or so.
[...]
Thanks for the advice.
Have been 'on the fence' regarding this release. Appreciate your perspective.
@MetroD -- I strongly advise you to get in anyway. The lottery portion is seriously under priced as compared to the potential upside, even if the medal is overpriced by $30 or so.
[...]
Thanks for the advice.
Have been 'on the fence' regarding this release. Appreciate your perspective.
Thanks for the well wishes. I bought a PCGS MS70 First Day of Issue with the flag label on eBay for $200. Always liked the PCGS stars and stripes First Strike label and this is essentially the same. Now about that sealed box coming next week?
Here’s what’s up. Gonna order me one and crack that sucker right open. No privy? Ok, fire that overpriced hunk of junk right back to Washington, DC, or wherever the return center is. I guess I’m a bum. That’s cool. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!
It’s not a coin. It’s a medal. And not even a cool old school medal with old world craftsmanship. It’s a modern medal that looks like something sold at a museum gift shop. 🤮
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I wonder if any (or a high percentage, LOL) of the boxes with 1,794 privies are included in the exclusive advanced release medals they sell to the special dealers?
I also see 160 of these flowing hairs on eBay as pre-release graded 70's already and the golds have especially high prices above $5,000 that people should be afraid of with a 17,500 mintage and no indication of a gold privy, yet.
Bullsitter, where are those photos on the graded gold coin came from when the mint website product page for the coin does not have any photo as of today!
@SilverPlatinum said:
Bullsitter, where are those photos on the graded gold coin came from when the mint website product page for the coin does not have any photo as of today!
The pictures do not reflect the gold will be proof.
It is hard to imagine why anyone is paying $6,100 this far ahead of time for one the 17,500 one-ounce proof gold coins, even if they are NGC 70's. No possible upside from that cost level that I can see.
@SilverPlatinum said:
Bullsitter, where are those photos on the graded gold coin came from when the mint website product page for the coin does not have any photo as of today!
I notice the ad at the top of the eBay listing said mintage of only 10k. The Mint says 17.5k. Seems like false and premature advertising. That sale should cancel.
@Goldminers said:
I notice the ad at the top of the eBay listing said mintage of only 10k. The Mint says 17.5k. Seems like false and premature advertising. That sale should cancel.
Agreed. And it will, when it comes time ship, and the buyer sees the real mintage, and the fact they are readily available from the Mint for around $3600. $6100 is probably going to be right around the TV price for a PR70. EBay prices are typically a lot less.
If the buyer is paying attention and doesn't want to get ripped off, eBay will back them because the item is not as described if the mintage is not 10K. The seller's last completed sale is already $5,000, so the market is already adjusting.
Taking a shot and roping someone in is not a crime. But, if the mintage is misstated, that would be a legitimate reason to cancel a purchase if the buyer wakes up and chooses to go that route. And, of course, the problem with these pre-sales more than a month out is that the buyer can always cancel without penalty.
@HATTRICK said:
who is happyservicehappy AKA happy coins more ?
I had attempted to buy a 2019-S ERP from this guy but he claimed he sent the COA to another customer. After about 2 weeks of trying to track down this customer he offered me another one but I was fed up and cancelled the order. Seemed a bit unorganized.
@PeakRarities said:
There’s already bids approaching the 4 figure mark on the silver medal with the privy.
Which is great, because 1794 of anything produced by the Mint will surely garner that level of interest.
Query: How on earth can anyone possibly know they are going to have one to sell at this point in time?
If you are unable to get one directly from the Mint, there is a 50/50 chance of taking a significant bath on anything like this that you sell pre-release, so what's the seller's angle here, even if bidding ends at mid-4 figures?
After all, this is not a product where the seller knows they are going to be able to obtain quantity, and at what price, so they can rope in early suckers at inflated prices! As at least one person is now doing with the gold coin.
Edit: I guess it's possible that the Big Boys are being allowed to buy quantity pursuant to the Advance Release or bulk purchase program.
If so, that is total BS, insofar as it gives them a guaranteed windfall since they will receive around 2.4% of their hundreds or thousands of medals as privys, which, as @PeakRarities has pointed out, will be selling for thousands each when the dust settles.
And, it makes the lottery that much more BS for the rest of us, since fewer medals will be offered, and will sell out that much more quickly. If true, though, this would solve the return issue on a number of these medals in a way none of us considered, so I can see why the Mint would want to go this route.
It is still total BS, though, if a select group is going to be allowed to guarantee themselves a few winning lottery tickets simply by being allowed to buy in bulk when the rest of us are not given that opportunity. In this way, it smells a lot like a VB production.
I really hope this is not the case, but I have a bad feeling, with a 75K offering, that it is. If this ends up happening, I know it's just wishful thinking, but I REALLY hope people boycott the ones with the privy marks, rather than enabling this and being the "marks" themselves, as the Mint rewards its best customers by handing them a windfall at the expense of ordinary collectors, without whom there are no dealers and no hobby.
$4,000 sounds about right for an MS70 privy marked medal. Even at that price selling a sealed box doesn't come out to much of a premium over issue price. $150 or so by the numbers.
[...]
Edit: I guess it's possible that the Big Boys are being allowed to buy quantity pursuant to the Advance Release or bulk purchase program.
[...]
Not sure about the NBPP, but it appears that the Ag medal will be available as part of the ABPP (i.e., 'PCGS Advanced Release/ CAC Advanced Delivery').
[...]
Edit: I guess it's possible that the Big Boys are being allowed to buy quantity pursuant to the Advance Release or bulk purchase program.
[...]
Not sure about the NBPP, but it appears that the Ag medal will be available as part of the ABPP (i.e., 'PCGS Advanced Release/ CAC Advanced Delivery').
Okay, makes sense. So 7500 will be going out to that select group, and it will include 180 with privys. Total BS windfall for them, at the expense of individuals who would have otherwise gobbled up all 75K.
And, if they are doing this, there is no reason they wouldn't also be doing bulk sales, which will take more medals off the market, as well as more with privys.
Bottom line -- this is REALLY going to suck. A very significant number of prizes are going to straight to dealers, which explains how and why there are already listings on eBay.
It's also going to explain how 75K sell out in a few minutes. Because there won't be anywhere near 75K actually offered to us peons. Finally, it explains why returns aren't a huge concern for them.
The dealer sales are non-returnable. And they will be fine with that, because their unit costs are going to be $20-30 after taking into account the winners they are guaranteed to receive.
As far as the rest of us go, some will return while others won't, so the Mint probably thinks it will be manageable. But we should all return, because dealers will be dumping their inventory on the market when the dust settles. Because, as I said, their net cost is going to be a fraction of the Mint's $104 retail price, and there is going to be no reason to sit on them.
Just watch -- a month or two after release, these will be available raw or MS69 for $60-70. I hope the privys crash and burn, although I know they won't, because it's total BS for the Mint to reward its retail partners with a windfall at the expense of suckers induced to pay a monster premium for an artificial mondern rarity steered to a select few, with a few crumbs left for retail customers just so they can say that it wasn't exclusively for the Big Boys.
The issue won't be that the Big Boys get prizes with greater frequency, because they most likely will not. It's that they will be allowed to buy in sufficient quantity to eliminate risk, guaranteeing them a few winners while the rest of us have a 98% chance of getting none with a HHL of 1 before they instantly sell out.
The Mint did not used to have Advance Release or bulk sales of limited mintage releases with HHLs of 1. Things have changed. Clearly for no reason other than to throw a reward to the Big Boys, and maybe a misguided effort to relieve stress on the website, since dealers will have already secured a guaranteed allocation.
But it's going to fail, because plenty of internet buying groups are going to slam the website for a free shot at the prize, since the Mint will be taking returns for full refunds. Not to mention, with far less than 75K being offered for sale, it's still going to be a frustrating experience for many. Dopes.
At the end of the day, the move for collectors is going to be to take their shot at the prize, boycott it from the dealers rather than pay several thousand dollars for a modern rarity the Mint denied them access to while placing them in the hands of dealers, return the losers to the Mint, if they are lucky enough to actually be able to place an order, and then buy a non-privy version on the secondary market for a fraction of the release price when dealers inevitably dump them, if they actually have an interest in securing one for their collection.
That's my plan right now, and I have NEVER before returned anything to the Mint. But eff them for allowing dealers to buy these in bulk while limiting us to one per customer, with a 2% shot at a multi thousand dollar prize.
@coiner said:
I thought I read that the Flowing Hair GOLD is not part of the ABPP program.
I'm sure you read wrong, and, in any event, there would be no reason for that, because the coins are not going to sell out. At least not immediately, at the price they are going to be offered at, and the mintage that is going to be produced.
Since there is no lottery ticket associated with them, there is absolutely no reason not to include it in the program, to allow the Mint to boost its sales, and to feed the market for the special TPG labels.
It's the SILVER medals that should be excluded, and they are not, because including them in any sales channel not available to the general public necessarily entails removing a number of winning lottery tickets from public distribution.
I dont think I read it wrong. It specifically called out the GOLD not included in the ABPP program - unless the USM has decided to change their original stance (which hasnt been the first time)
It was a post made on Sept 16th by a blog following all details from the USM - probably old news now and debunked:
"There is said to be no presales for ABPP, or Numismatic Bulk programs, which makes this release that much tougher to get. The Retail Price has increased due to the large spike in recent gold prices."
@coiner said:
I dont think I read it wrong. It specifically called out the GOLD not included in the ABPP program - unless the USM has decided to change their original stance (which hasnt been the first time)
Fair enough. You didn't read it wrong, but it was simply uninformed speculation.
USM information is published on its own website, and in reputable publications such as Coin World. Not so much on blogs "following all details from the USM." Spreading uninformed BS benefits no one.
@coiner said:
I dont think I read it wrong. It specifically called out the GOLD not included in the ABPP program - unless the USM has decided to change their original stance (which hasnt been the first time)
Fair enough. You didn't read it wrong, but it was simply uninformed speculation.
USM information is published on its own website, and in reputable publications such as Coin World. Not so much on blogs "following all details from the USM." Spreading uninformed BS benefits no one.
In your opinion. But we all have our blogs we follow. Including this one. You just have to double check the details.
Certain authors that posted in the past used to get details from Michael White of the US Mint - and it was good info......sometimes many of the details were slow to show up on the USM site.
@HATTRICK said:
who is happyservicehappy AKA happy coins more ?
.
Seller from Miami, he has already sold 7 of them and has 55 listed right now......55.
Keep on truckin' Hat....
far too many for one seller to claim to be able to fulfill in advance. Would have to be a back door deal with the mint or a
SCAM. Also not safe to deal with an Anonymous seller with big claims.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
the happy coins guy has been out there for a while. seems to run all the auctions in advance, then buys what he needs to fill them. he runs different auctions with all the varieties of labels to see which he has to buy more of to fill orders. he also does the "day of" labels---such as ANA release, FUN show release, etc.
business models is....sell what you can ; collect the proceeds, then fill your orders ---customers knowing its presale....to be filled a month or so later----and keep the profit. seems to work.
@coiner said:
business models is....sell what you can ; collect the proceeds, then fill your orders ---customers knowing its presale....to be filled a month or so later----and keep the profit. seems to work.
Works for the seller if he can buy for less than what he is selling for. have ordered from people like that in the past who have just cancelled order when they could not obtain coins at a cheaper price than his listing. In my opinion preselling coins you don't have to sell is a SCAM.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
Comments
I interpret the first part of the sentence (highlighted in blue) to mean that the Mint has the right to 'limit/refuse' a return under any circumstance. For me, the balance of the sentence introduces a separate concept (i.e., charge a fee for excessive returns).
But, again, I am not a lawyer.
It will be interesting to see how the Mint handles this situation.
The entire paragraph is written in reference to "excessive returns". The mint accepts returns.
Not sure why anyone would have a question regarding this issue. However, if in doubt pick-up your phone and dial 1-800-USA-MINT and have them tell you the same.
I'm off work for two weeks with a bad back. If you tire of reading my posts I'll be back to work on the 21st.
Just got off the phone. Returns accepted for any reason (or no reason) with 7 days of receipt.
Me too.
The rep I spoke with said that the Mint had the right to limit or refuse a return under any circumstance. LOL.
NOT trying to start an argument here. In fact, haven't decided if I am going to even buy one of these yet. Just trying to to understand the existing rules, to the best of my ability, and their POTENTIAL application to this release.
I hope that your recuperation goes well.
Edited - Bolded a sentence in the quoted passage.
"The United States Mint reserves the right to limit or refuse a return ... ." Exactly which word in that sentence is giving you trouble? Because all of them together absolutely give them the right to refuse returns, even if the rules are adhered to. I agree it would be bad form, but they very well might feel justified after they see how people end up abusing the privilege with these.
TBD. I still think they might wake up before next Tuesday, and avoid what will be an absolute fiasco.
I'm sorry, but I don't see that qualification in there. It seems very broad to me. The clause about charging a fee for excessive returns is separated from the right to refuse returns by the "or."
It doesn't really matter what you think. Or what I think. Or what any of us thinks.
The right to refuse any return, for any reason, is specifically reserved by them. Again, I agree it would be terrible form, and, if they want to do it, they should just say so now.
Maybe they will actually take 30-40K of them back, and give full refunds, after going to all this trouble to create a sell out of an otherwise overpriced product. Maybe not.
I just happen to think they will put their good intentions aside and screw people over after being forced to confront the reality of this being a big fail if they end up making, selling, and then taking back 40K medals in order to set 1794 medals with privy marks free, when they could have done the exact same thing by giving the medals with the privy marks their own product number, absent having to manufacture, ship, process a return, and then having to warehouse 40K medals that will sit unsold indefinitely.
Just wait and see. I'm just telling you what they will point to if they do it. The fact that people did not understand the plain meaning of a sentence written in plain English is not going to be their problem, if the alternative is going to be some mid level manager at the Mint having to explain to Ventris how they failed to take returns into account when coming up with this brilliant lottery.
Yes, the Mint accepts returns. But it also refuses the right to do so.
If you want to get hyper technical here, when half their sales end up coming back, they very well might consider that to be "excessive returns," even though each customer will only be returning one (or however many they managed to get their hands on through alt accounts).
No matter how you look at this, it makes no sense. Refusing returns after indicating they would not do so will be BS. As is giving people a free shot at a large prize, and accepting returns of losers after setting up this scheme specially to move 75K units in less than 24 hours.
As I've said previously, they could have easily just created a product with a 1794 mintage if all they wanted to do was create a frenzy, and a windfall for the lucky 1794. They also wanted to sell 73,206 overpriced medals, many of which would otherwise sit unsold, or never be made in the first place.
It makes absolutely no sense to take them back after going to all the trouble to create the artificial demand for them in the first place. Not to mention, for those of us that just want a few, the prices will be VERY reasonable of the secondary market if tens of thousands that would otherwise be sitting in a Mint warehouse are dumped on the market by the lottery losers.
Stay tuned.
Great. Please get back to us next week with an update, after the attempted returns begin.
@MetroD -- I strongly advise you to get in anyway. The lottery portion is seriously under priced as compared to the potential upside, even if the medal is overpriced by $30 or so.
It's a no-brainer, which is why it will be a frenzy anyway, no matter they do with returns. I just wish they'd make clear that they won't accept returns, because that will drive away people who don't otherwise have any interest in the medal, and don't want to play a lottery with a 98% chance of them losing. Which would only make the website less nuts for the rest of us.
A lottery with a 0% chance of losing will draw all sorts out of the woodwork, and make the scene on the website far worse than it would otherwise be.
Thanks for the well wishes. I bought a PCGS MS70 First Day of Issue with the flag label on eBay for $200. Always liked the PCGS stars and stripes First Strike label and this is essentially the same. Now about that sealed box coming next week?
https://ebay.com/itm/326285193130
Thanks for the advice.
Have been 'on the fence' regarding this release. Appreciate your perspective.
My pleasure! Good luck, whatever you decide.
Here’s what’s up. Gonna order me one and crack that sucker right open. No privy? Ok, fire that overpriced hunk of junk right back to Washington, DC, or wherever the return center is. I guess I’m a bum. That’s cool. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!
It’s not a coin. It’s a medal. And not even a cool old school medal with old world craftsmanship. It’s a modern medal that looks like something sold at a museum gift shop. 🤮
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I wonder if any (or a high percentage, LOL) of the boxes with 1,794 privies are included in the exclusive advanced release medals they sell to the special dealers?
I also see 160 of these flowing hairs on eBay as pre-release graded 70's already and the golds have especially high prices above $5,000 that people should be afraid of with a 17,500 mintage and no indication of a gold privy, yet.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
T-minus 6 days and counting.
Bullsitter, where are those photos on the graded gold coin came from when the mint website product page for the coin does not have any photo as of today!
The pictures do not reflect the gold will be proof.
It is hard to imagine why anyone is paying $6,100 this far ahead of time for one the 17,500 one-ounce proof gold coins, even if they are NGC 70's. No possible upside from that cost level that I can see.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
who is happyservicehappy AKA happy coins more ?
.
That would be a good question for the seller.
.
Seller from Miami, he has already sold 7 of them and has 55 listed right now......55.
Keep on truckin' Hat....
He’s also a big seller on the Facebook page “ Modern Morgan and Peace Silver Dollars Only”.He goes by the name of “Andy Andy”.
I notice the ad at the top of the eBay listing said mintage of only 10k. The Mint says 17.5k. Seems like false and premature advertising. That sale should cancel.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Agreed. And it will, when it comes time ship, and the buyer sees the real mintage, and the fact they are readily available from the Mint for around $3600. $6100 is probably going to be right around the TV price for a PR70. EBay prices are typically a lot less.
If the buyer is paying attention and doesn't want to get ripped off, eBay will back them because the item is not as described if the mintage is not 10K. The seller's last completed sale is already $5,000, so the market is already adjusting.
Taking a shot and roping someone in is not a crime. But, if the mintage is misstated, that would be a legitimate reason to cancel a purchase if the buyer wakes up and chooses to go that route. And, of course, the problem with these pre-sales more than a month out is that the buyer can always cancel without penalty.
I had attempted to buy a 2019-S ERP from this guy but he claimed he sent the COA to another customer. After about 2 weeks of trying to track down this customer he offered me another one but I was fed up and cancelled the order. Seemed a bit unorganized.
There’s already bids approaching the 4 figure mark on the silver medal with the privy.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Which is great, because 1794 of anything produced by the Mint will surely garner that level of interest.
Query: How on earth can anyone possibly know they are going to have one to sell at this point in time?
If you are unable to get one directly from the Mint, there is a 50/50 chance of taking a significant bath on anything like this that you sell pre-release, so what's the seller's angle here, even if bidding ends at mid-4 figures?
After all, this is not a product where the seller knows they are going to be able to obtain quantity, and at what price, so they can rope in early suckers at inflated prices! As at least one person is now doing with the gold coin.
Edit: I guess it's possible that the Big Boys are being allowed to buy quantity pursuant to the Advance Release or bulk purchase program.
If so, that is total BS, insofar as it gives them a guaranteed windfall since they will receive around 2.4% of their hundreds or thousands of medals as privys, which, as @PeakRarities has pointed out, will be selling for thousands each when the dust settles.
And, it makes the lottery that much more BS for the rest of us, since fewer medals will be offered, and will sell out that much more quickly. If true, though, this would solve the return issue on a number of these medals in a way none of us considered, so I can see why the Mint would want to go this route.
It is still total BS, though, if a select group is going to be allowed to guarantee themselves a few winning lottery tickets simply by being allowed to buy in bulk when the rest of us are not given that opportunity. In this way, it smells a lot like a VB production.
I really hope this is not the case, but I have a bad feeling, with a 75K offering, that it is. If this ends up happening, I know it's just wishful thinking, but I REALLY hope people boycott the ones with the privy marks, rather than enabling this and being the "marks" themselves, as the Mint rewards its best customers by handing them a windfall at the expense of ordinary collectors, without whom there are no dealers and no hobby.
$4,000 sounds about right for an MS70 privy marked medal. Even at that price selling a sealed box doesn't come out to much of a premium over issue price. $150 or so by the numbers.
T-minus 4 days and counting.
Not sure about the NBPP, but it appears that the Ag medal will be available as part of the ABPP (i.e., 'PCGS Advanced Release/ CAC Advanced Delivery').
Source: https://lcrcoin.com/search-magic.html?query=flow#query=flow&filter_year.filter=2024&items_per_page=24&sort_method=_score/desc&page=1
Per the LCR 'product page' for the coin pictured above:
Source: https://lcrcoin.com/2024-silver-medal-flowing-hair-230th-anniversary-ad-cac-ms70-founders-label/
Okay, makes sense. So 7500 will be going out to that select group, and it will include 180 with privys. Total BS windfall for them, at the expense of individuals who would have otherwise gobbled up all 75K.
And, if they are doing this, there is no reason they wouldn't also be doing bulk sales, which will take more medals off the market, as well as more with privys.
Bottom line -- this is REALLY going to suck. A very significant number of prizes are going to straight to dealers, which explains how and why there are already listings on eBay.
It's also going to explain how 75K sell out in a few minutes. Because there won't be anywhere near 75K actually offered to us peons. Finally, it explains why returns aren't a huge concern for them.
The dealer sales are non-returnable. And they will be fine with that, because their unit costs are going to be $20-30 after taking into account the winners they are guaranteed to receive.
As far as the rest of us go, some will return while others won't, so the Mint probably thinks it will be manageable. But we should all return, because dealers will be dumping their inventory on the market when the dust settles. Because, as I said, their net cost is going to be a fraction of the Mint's $104 retail price, and there is going to be no reason to sit on them.
Just watch -- a month or two after release, these will be available raw or MS69 for $60-70. I hope the privys crash and burn, although I know they won't, because it's total BS for the Mint to reward its retail partners with a windfall at the expense of suckers induced to pay a monster premium for an artificial mondern rarity steered to a select few, with a few crumbs left for retail customers just so they can say that it wasn't exclusively for the Big Boys.
The issue won't be that the Big Boys get prizes with greater frequency, because they most likely will not. It's that they will be allowed to buy in sufficient quantity to eliminate risk, guaranteeing them a few winners while the rest of us have a 98% chance of getting none with a HHL of 1 before they instantly sell out.
The Mint did not used to have Advance Release or bulk sales of limited mintage releases with HHLs of 1. Things have changed. Clearly for no reason other than to throw a reward to the Big Boys, and maybe a misguided effort to relieve stress on the website, since dealers will have already secured a guaranteed allocation.
But it's going to fail, because plenty of internet buying groups are going to slam the website for a free shot at the prize, since the Mint will be taking returns for full refunds. Not to mention, with far less than 75K being offered for sale, it's still going to be a frustrating experience for many. Dopes.
At the end of the day, the move for collectors is going to be to take their shot at the prize, boycott it from the dealers rather than pay several thousand dollars for a modern rarity the Mint denied them access to while placing them in the hands of dealers, return the losers to the Mint, if they are lucky enough to actually be able to place an order, and then buy a non-privy version on the secondary market for a fraction of the release price when dealers inevitably dump them, if they actually have an interest in securing one for their collection.
That's my plan right now, and I have NEVER before returned anything to the Mint. But eff them for allowing dealers to buy these in bulk while limiting us to one per customer, with a 2% shot at a multi thousand dollar prize.
Hey guys what’s the fuss, this isn’t even a coin it’s a medal.
As the moderator would say this is a coin forum.
This thread has been closed😂
Martin
I thought I read that the Flowing Hair GOLD is not part of the ABPP program.
I'm sure you read wrong, and, in any event, there would be no reason for that, because the coins are not going to sell out. At least not immediately, at the price they are going to be offered at, and the mintage that is going to be produced.
Since there is no lottery ticket associated with them, there is absolutely no reason not to include it in the program, to allow the Mint to boost its sales, and to feed the market for the special TPG labels.
It's the SILVER medals that should be excluded, and they are not, because including them in any sales channel not available to the general public necessarily entails removing a number of winning lottery tickets from public distribution.
I dont think I read it wrong. It specifically called out the GOLD not included in the ABPP program - unless the USM has decided to change their original stance (which hasnt been the first time)
It was a post made on Sept 16th by a blog following all details from the USM - probably old news now and debunked:
"There is said to be no presales for ABPP, or Numismatic Bulk programs, which makes this release that much tougher to get. The Retail Price has increased due to the large spike in recent gold prices."
Privy marked piece already offered on eBay: https://ebay.com/itm/116351923952?_skw=2024+230th+anniversary+silver+medal&itmmeta=01JA0R7PV7HRZS005QBK6QKPYJ&hash=item1b171d76f0:g:J6sAAOSwbANnBqH6&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAABAHoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKksa%2B4vvm9KUVgV9TxFslzar%2FxjjgUjdjiksWwI%2BePyaBFzVTlvU7rh2O63S079s1pf%2BDGXWBHAYM4EYevWSXGETA64P3knE5XApviLIrzhzZmF7GfXzUGVxapu1Wz7et89gCqZyzHUtsZDMMYii6XPsnPbK3AFYnpOnWbTla5D4FTVOYhUTEDBVivokHEEsr8ujMMuBQT1w3P8%2FxHTuhuwGSmSBC2cYTJmig3gyin1j4UZxhI%2BuaGOgVBJtUKQhhCOBow2Y0sfk1KPn2HTs1VP1oA6zq9c3ELoHKFhCchUKXKI949AZx%2BWuOu%2B35ZmLIc%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR9jtnpjQZA
147 watching it also!
It seems the U.S. Mint updated some photos for it, here is the packaging photo (looks beautiful and elegant):
Fair enough. You didn't read it wrong, but it was simply uninformed speculation.
USM information is published on its own website, and in reputable publications such as Coin World. Not so much on blogs "following all details from the USM." Spreading uninformed BS benefits no one.
Can't speak to the article, but LCR is offering the GOLD FH coin as a CAC "Advanced Delivery" (i.e., a ABPP release).
Link: https://lcrcoin.com/2024-w-230th-anniversary-flowing-hair-gold-dollar-ad-cac-pr70-founders-label/
In your opinion. But we all have our blogs we follow. Including this one. You just have to double check the details.
Certain authors that posted in the past used to get details from Michael White of the US Mint - and it was good info......sometimes many of the details were slow to show up on the USM site.
Very nice! I'll keep mine even if non-privy. I love the fact that these are ASE size and a special "medal". $100 is not bad for a piece like this.
far too many for one seller to claim to be able to fulfill in advance. Would have to be a back door deal with the mint or a
SCAM. Also not safe to deal with an Anonymous seller with big claims.
the happy coins guy has been out there for a while. seems to run all the auctions in advance, then buys what he needs to fill them. he runs different auctions with all the varieties of labels to see which he has to buy more of to fill orders. he also does the "day of" labels---such as ANA release, FUN show release, etc.
business models is....sell what you can ; collect the proceeds, then fill your orders ---customers knowing its presale....to be filled a month or so later----and keep the profit. seems to work.
FYI: Here is the anticipated waitroom on Tuesday October 15th:
Works for the seller if he can buy for less than what he is selling for. have ordered from people like that in the past who have just cancelled order when they could not obtain coins at a cheaper price than his listing. In my opinion preselling coins you don't have to sell is a SCAM.