I do commend the mint for striking new coinage. I so wish they didn't lack originality and this reverting to allegory with the cheesiest mint marks ( CC to be more specific) . For me, it just took away my desire to complete a series. I think it all started in 2009 when the silver eagle proofs were not available , due to "collector" demand for bullion. How could the collector be so justly rewarded than to interrupt one of the most successful series since '86.
But, I digress. I didn't mind the gold Kennedy fiasco or the gold Mercury dime, Standing Liberty Quarter and Walking Liberty half commemorated in 2016, I just cannot latch on to these collector pieces and that is great news for those who do. No competition makes the hobby most enjoyable.
I'm pretty sure they offer a similar product at that price point. Only problem being that the mintage is in the 10s of millions rather than 100s of thousands, but it's there for you if you want it.
The market for collector coins with these mintages is right around the $80 they charge. Maybe not for you, but they do move over a million a year, in various finishes and two different designs, at those prices.
" Collector coin" implies there will be demand and subsequent value appreciation.
There will be none on these if they keep stamping them out like pringles.
Collector coin does not require value appreciation. It only requires that there be someone who wants to collect them. A lot of "collectibles" don't appreciate including coins during some time frames.
I typically say that anything specifically made for collectors almost never appreciate without a secondary driver like PM. It’s the utilitarian items that disappeared from attrition that have nostalgia for liquid, cash flow people that become appreciating collectibles. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a wide collector base for the made for collectors stuff, it just never disappears at a rate that would drive appreciation. The collectors typically dry up quicker
@knovak1976 said:
Hardly anyone wants these….so they will become the sleeper key/semi key coins….and then we’ll all kick ourselves for not buying them…lol
Nah. Lot of people want them. It's just that people here want mintages to be lower, to drive secondary market demand, and/or want prices to be lower, because the lower the price point, the higher the upside potential for them.
This is not to say that people might not lose interest as the novelty wears off. But, the Mint has seen how many they could sell, and what similar items sell for on the secondary market, so they have a pretty good idea of how many they can sell at a given price point.
They proved it last year, and are simply trying to replicate it now. Us pooping all over these is going to accomplish nothing.
People actually taking a pass, en masse, will. But that's just not going to happen. Sales dipping from 275K to 200K is not going to create a modern rarity. And sales are not going to stall at 35K.
@knovak1976 said:
Hardly anyone wants these….so they will become the sleeper key/semi key coins….and then we’ll all kick ourselves for not buying them…lol
@knovak1976 said:
Hardly anyone wants these….so they will become the sleeper key/semi key coins….and then we’ll all kick ourselves for not buying them…lol
Nah. Lot of people want them. It's just that people here want mintages to be lower, to drive secondary market demand, and/or want prices to be lower, because the lower the price point, the higher the upside potential for them.
This is not to say that people might not lose interest as the novelty wears off. But, the Mint has seen how many they could sell, and what similar items sell for on the secondary market, so they have a pretty good idea of how many they can sell at a given price point.
They proved it last year, and are simply trying to replicate it now. Us pooping all over these is going to accomplish nothing.
People actually taking a pass, en masse, will. But that's just not going to happen. Sales dipping from 275K to 200K is not going to create a modern rarity. And sales are not going to stall at 35K.
I don't know I think we should poop all over them. They have the ordering process down, takes your order and then execute. Its not rocket science. They have the market research or they should to determine mintage based on pre-order demand. They may come up a little long or short who cares? Hold over the blanks for next year, rinse, repeat etc. What am I missing here?
That Rick Tomska has recorded a half hour segment pumping up slabs for 2.5x what my raw ones cost me. Sometimes it 3am and weekend AM TV is lacking. I dvr'd it. These may not be for you but some random aspiring collectors pay a bunch more for these, a gift for their heirs to regret or be happy. I like them for issue $, I really dig reverse proofs as they are just so incredibly odd looking & yet somewhat familiar. I am a full pass on the uncs, so with my luck they will be more "valuable" for for $4 less, why not buy proofs and proof variants ?
Just received the Ancient Membership badge and I am starting to feel "Ancient", however, after two heart failures
"I'm Still Standing" because "Only the good die young".
Less than two weeks until the uncirculated go on sale and I am out. Done with modern mint coins and have sold off almost all of my collection so the grandkids can't sell them for melt and buy video games.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
I changed all my subscriptions to zero just last week as well. I have the first year, and a complete set from last year, and as far as this set is concerned I'm done. Id rather spend my money on the real Morgan and peace dollars. I have a near complete set of ASE, I don't need another set of basically the same thing.
@ndeagles said:
I changed all my subscriptions to zero just last week as well. I have the first year, and a complete set from last year, and as far as this set is concerned I'm done. Id rather spend my money on the real Morgan and peace dollars. I have a near complete set of ASE, I don't need another set of basically the same thing.
Fair enough, but you should realize that these are "real" Morgan and Peace Dollars.
Issued by the US government. Made by the US Mint.
Authorized by Congress. Fully monetized.
Just like the so-called "real" ones from 100+ years ago, that circulated just about as much, given how many of the classic ones were melted down without ever leaving the Treasury, or sat undisturbed in Treasury vaults for 50+ years until numismatic value, and then the rising price of silver, created collector and dealer demand in the late 1950s and early 1960s, causing them to finally fly out of the vaults at $1 each, even though they were worth far more than that, even at the time.
The only difference is that these are made in far lower numbers, and are being sold for far more than $1. Both due to the bullion value, and due to the fact that, unlike in the 1950s and 1960s, the government now understands the collector value of the coins, so they are not giving them away at far below market value. Rather, they are selling them for what the market will bear.
So definitely feel free to spend your money however you see fit. Just understand that a 100+ year old uncirculated Morgan dollar that you buy for $76 is worth exactly as much as a 2024 uncirculated Morgan dollar that I buy from the Mint for $76. No more, no less. And it is nothing more than blind speculation to think that you know which one will be worth more than the other in the future.
@ndeagles said:
I changed all my subscriptions to zero just last week as well. I have the first year, and a complete set from last year, and as far as this set is concerned I'm done. Id rather spend my money on the real Morgan and peace dollars. I have a near complete set of ASE, I don't need another set of basically the same thing.
Fair enough, but you should realize that these are "real" Morgan and Peace Dollars.
Issued by the US government. Made by the US Mint.
Authorized by Congress. Fully monetized.
Just like the so-called "real" ones from 100+ years ago, that circulated just about as much, given how many of the classic ones were melted down without ever leaving the Treasury, or sat undisturbed in Treasury vaults for 50+ years until numismatic value, and then the rising price of silver, created collector and dealer demand in the late 1950s and early 1960s, causing them to finally fly out of the vaults at $1 each, even though they were worth far more than that, even at the time.
The only difference is that these are made in far lower numbers, and are being sold for far more than $1. Both due to the bullion value, and due to the fact that, unlike in the 1950s and 1960s, the government now understands the collector value of the coins, so they are not giving them away at far below market value. Rather, they are selling them for what the market will bear.
So definitely feel free to spend you money however you see fit. Just understand that a 100+ year old uncirculated Morgan dollar that you buy for $76 is worth exactly as much as a 2024 uncirculated Morgan dollar that I buy from the Mint for $76. No more, no less. And it is nothing more than blind speculation to think that you know which one will be worth more than the other in the future.
I've agreed with most of your posts in this thread, but not this one.
There is a big difference to most collectors. The "real" Morgan dollars were intended to circulate. These are not because no coin selling for such a large premium to FV will ever enter circulation intentionally, especially since all current circulating coinage is base metal.
What I am describing is evident to somewhat evident in how coins are viewed in the aggregate as collectibles measured by the same level of rarity.
Circulation strikes > circulation proofs > commemoratives or patterns.
Classic commemoratives were also sold at a premium (much lower premium) but a low proportion did circulate and the FV was consistent with circulating coins of the same denomination. So, in this sense are more "real" coins than modern commemoratives.
@ndeagles said:
I changed all my subscriptions to zero just last week as well. I have the first year, and a complete set from last year, and as far as this set is concerned I'm done. Id rather spend my money on the real Morgan and peace dollars. I have a near complete set of ASE, I don't need another set of basically the same thing.
Fair enough, but you should realize that these are "real" Morgan and Peace Dollars.
Issued by the US government. Made by the US Mint.
Authorized by Congress. Fully monetized.
Just like the so-called "real" ones from 100+ years ago, that circulated just about as much, given how many of the classic ones were melted down without ever leaving the Treasury, or sat undisturbed in Treasury vaults for 50+ years until numismatic value, and then the rising price of silver, created collector and dealer demand in the late 1950s and early 1960s, causing them to finally fly out of the vaults at $1 each, even though they were worth far more than that, even at the time.
The only difference is that these are made in far lower numbers, and are being sold for far more than $1. Both due to the bullion value, and due to the fact that, unlike in the 1950s and 1960s, the government now understands the collector value of the coins, so they are not giving them away at far below market value. Rather, they are selling them for what the market will bear.
So definitely feel free to spend you money however you see fit. Just understand that a 100+ year old uncirculated Morgan dollar that you buy for $76 is worth exactly as much as a 2024 uncirculated Morgan dollar that I buy from the Mint for $76. No more, no less. And it is nothing more than blind speculation to think that you know which one will be worth more than the other in the future.
I've agreed with most of your posts in this thread, but not this one.
There is a big difference to most collectors. The "real" Morgan dollars were intended to circulate. These are not because no coin selling for such a large premium to FV will ever enter circulation intentionally, especially since all current circulating coinage is base metal.
What I am describing is evident to somewhat evident in how coins are viewed in the aggregate as collectibles measured by the same level of rarity.
Circulation strikes > circulation proofs > commemoratives or patterns.
Classic commemoratives were also sold at a premium (much lower premium) but a low proportion did circulate and the FV was consistent with circulating coins of the same denomination. So, in this sense are more "real" coins than modern commemoratives.
@ndeagles said:
I changed all my subscriptions to zero just last week as well. I have the first year, and a complete set from last year, and as far as this set is concerned I'm done. Id rather spend my money on the real Morgan and peace dollars. I have a near complete set of ASE, I don't need another set of basically the same thing.
Fair enough, but you should realize that these are "real" Morgan and Peace Dollars.
Issued by the US government. Made by the US Mint.
Authorized by Congress. Fully monetized.
Just like the so-called "real" ones from 100+ years ago, that circulated just about as much, given how many of the classic ones were melted down without ever leaving the Treasury, or sat undisturbed in Treasury vaults for 50+ years until numismatic value, and then the rising price of silver, created collector and dealer demand in the late 1950s and early 1960s, causing them to finally fly out of the vaults at $1 each, even though they were worth far more than that, even at the time.
The only difference is that these are made in far lower numbers, and are being sold for far more than $1. Both due to the bullion value, and due to the fact that, unlike in the 1950s and 1960s, the government now understands the collector value of the coins, so they are not giving them away at far below market value. Rather, they are selling them for what the market will bear.
So definitely feel free to spend you money however you see fit. Just understand that a 100+ year old uncirculated Morgan dollar that you buy for $76 is worth exactly as much as a 2024 uncirculated Morgan dollar that I buy from the Mint for $76. No more, no less. And it is nothing more than blind speculation to think that you know which one will be worth more than the other in the future.
I've agreed with most of your posts in this thread, but not this one.
There is a big difference to most collectors. The "real" Morgan dollars were intended to circulate. These are not because no coin selling for such a large premium to FV will ever enter circulation intentionally, especially since all current circulating coinage is base metal.
What I am describing is evident to somewhat evident in how coins are viewed in the aggregate as collectibles measured by the same level of rarity.
Circulation strikes > circulation proofs > commemoratives or patterns.
Classic commemoratives were also sold at a premium (much lower premium) but a low proportion did circulate and the FV was consistent with circulating coins of the same denomination. So, in this sense are more "real" coins than modern commemoratives.
That would make all proofs not "real".
You're missing my point.
It's that circulating coins aren't viewed equivalently to others. Yes, proofs are viewed as "real" coins, but the much lower mintage is not viewed equivalently vs. any circulating coin with roughly the same mintage.
@ndeagles said:
I changed all my subscriptions to zero just last week as well. I have the first year, and a complete set from last year, and as far as this set is concerned I'm done. Id rather spend my money on the real Morgan and peace dollars. I have a near complete set of ASE, I don't need another set of basically the same thing.
Fair enough, but you should realize that these are "real" Morgan and Peace Dollars.
Issued by the US government. Made by the US Mint.
Authorized by Congress. Fully monetized.
Just like the so-called "real" ones from 100+ years ago, that circulated just about as much, given how many of the classic ones were melted down without ever leaving the Treasury, or sat undisturbed in Treasury vaults for 50+ years until numismatic value, and then the rising price of silver, created collector and dealer demand in the late 1950s and early 1960s, causing them to finally fly out of the vaults at $1 each, even though they were worth far more than that, even at the time.
The only difference is that these are made in far lower numbers, and are being sold for far more than $1. Both due to the bullion value, and due to the fact that, unlike in the 1950s and 1960s, the government now understands the collector value of the coins, so they are not giving them away at far below market value. Rather, they are selling them for what the market will bear.
So definitely feel free to spend you money however you see fit. Just understand that a 100+ year old uncirculated Morgan dollar that you buy for $76 is worth exactly as much as a 2024 uncirculated Morgan dollar that I buy from the Mint for $76. No more, no less. And it is nothing more than blind speculation to think that you know which one will be worth more than the other in the future.
I've agreed with most of your posts in this thread, but not this one.
There is a big difference to most collectors. The "real" Morgan dollars were intended to circulate. These are not because no coin selling for such a large premium to FV will ever enter circulation intentionally, especially since all current circulating coinage is base metal.
What I am describing is evident to somewhat evident in how coins are viewed in the aggregate as collectibles measured by the same level of rarity.
Circulation strikes > circulation proofs > commemoratives or patterns.
Classic commemoratives were also sold at a premium (much lower premium) but a low proportion did circulate and the FV was consistent with circulating coins of the same denomination. So, in this sense are more "real" coins than modern commemoratives.
That would make all proofs not "real".
You're missing my point.
It's that circulating coins aren't viewed equivalently to others. Yes, proofs are viewed as "real" coins, but the much lower mintage is not viewed equivalently vs. any circulating coin with roughly the same mintage.
I'm not missing your point at all. You threw proofs into the mix. They can be NCLT and still be part of the series, even if less desirable than other parts of the series.
I bought what was flipable in 2021, plus one each (P) to keep for the type set. Then got one each of the proofs in 2023, again for the type set. Couldn’t get the RP’s. So…. this year on those two and likely done, barring a new finish.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
@ndeagles said:
I changed all my subscriptions to zero just last week as well. I have the first year, and a complete set from last year, and as far as this set is concerned I'm done. Id rather spend my money on the real Morgan and peace dollars. I have a near complete set of ASE, I don't need another set of basically the same thing.
Fair enough, but you should realize that these are "real" Morgan and Peace Dollars.
Issued by the US government. Made by the US Mint.
Authorized by Congress. Fully monetized.
Just like the so-called "real" ones from 100+ years ago, that circulated just about as much, given how many of the classic ones were melted down without ever leaving the Treasury, or sat undisturbed in Treasury vaults for 50+ years until numismatic value, and then the rising price of silver, created collector and dealer demand in the late 1950s and early 1960s, causing them to finally fly out of the vaults at $1 each, even though they were worth far more than that, even at the time.
The only difference is that these are made in far lower numbers, and are being sold for far more than $1. Both due to the bullion value, and due to the fact that, unlike in the 1950s and 1960s, the government now understands the collector value of the coins, so they are not giving them away at far below market value. Rather, they are selling them for what the market will bear.
So definitely feel free to spend you money however you see fit. Just understand that a 100+ year old uncirculated Morgan dollar that you buy for $76 is worth exactly as much as a 2024 uncirculated Morgan dollar that I buy from the Mint for $76. No more, no less. And it is nothing more than blind speculation to think that you know which one will be worth more than the other in the future.
I've agreed with most of your posts in this thread, but not this one.
There is a big difference to most collectors. The "real" Morgan dollars were intended to circulate. These are not because no coin selling for such a large premium to FV will ever enter circulation intentionally, especially since all current circulating coinage is base metal.
What I am describing is evident to somewhat evident in how coins are viewed in the aggregate as collectibles measured by the same level of rarity.
Circulation strikes > circulation proofs > commemoratives or patterns.
Classic commemoratives were also sold at a premium (much lower premium) but a low proportion did circulate and the FV was consistent with circulating coins of the same denomination. So, in this sense are more "real" coins than modern commemoratives.
Thank you for saying this. It's okay to disagree from time to time.
I just don't buy into the mythology that Morgan and Peace dollars were made to circulate. Relatively few of them did, outside of casinos in Nevada and a few western states.
They were made as a sop to mining interests, melted down, and then made again. They were never Indian Head cents, Mercury dimes, Buffalo nickels, etc.
Millions of them exist today in uncirculated condition because they literally never circulated. Just like the millions of coins that will be made today. Yes, the modern coins are being made to satisfy a collector demand, at a very large premium to face value.
There was almost no collector demand 100+ years ago, and the coins then were made for a different reason. But, other than the dates, there is absolutely no difference between a classic uncirculated dollar you can get for less than $100 and these.
The older coins don't exist because millions of people socked them away for a century and they are now seeing the light of day. They exist because they never circulated, and were taken out of storage when savvy dealers and collectors recognized the opportunity decades after they were made.
Today the Mint sees the same opportunity, and manufactures them to satisfy the exact same demand. If you want to draw a distinction, it is certainly your right to do so. If all collectors agreed, there would be no market for these at 3-4x bullion value, and they wouldn't be made.
@ndeagles said:
I changed all my subscriptions to zero just last week as well. I have the first year, and a complete set from last year, and as far as this set is concerned I'm done. Id rather spend my money on the real Morgan and peace dollars. I have a near complete set of ASE, I don't need another set of basically the same thing.
Fair enough, but you should realize that these are "real" Morgan and Peace Dollars.
Issued by the US government. Made by the US Mint.
Authorized by Congress. Fully monetized.
Just like the so-called "real" ones from 100+ years ago, that circulated just about as much, given how many of the classic ones were melted down without ever leaving the Treasury, or sat undisturbed in Treasury vaults for 50+ years until numismatic value, and then the rising price of silver, created collector and dealer demand in the late 1950s and early 1960s, causing them to finally fly out of the vaults at $1 each, even though they were worth far more than that, even at the time.
The only difference is that these are made in far lower numbers, and are being sold for far more than $1. Both due to the bullion value, and due to the fact that, unlike in the 1950s and 1960s, the government now understands the collector value of the coins, so they are not giving them away at far below market value. Rather, they are selling them for what the market will bear.
So definitely feel free to spend you money however you see fit. Just understand that a 100+ year old uncirculated Morgan dollar that you buy for $76 is worth exactly as much as a 2024 uncirculated Morgan dollar that I buy from the Mint for $76. No more, no less. And it is nothing more than blind speculation to think that you know which one will be worth more than the other in the future.
I've agreed with most of your posts in this thread, but not this one.
There is a big difference to most collectors. The "real" Morgan dollars were intended to circulate. These are not because no coin selling for such a large premium to FV will ever enter circulation intentionally, especially since all current circulating coinage is base metal.
What I am describing is evident to somewhat evident in how coins are viewed in the aggregate as collectibles measured by the same level of rarity.
Circulation strikes > circulation proofs > commemoratives or patterns.
Classic commemoratives were also sold at a premium (much lower premium) but a low proportion did circulate and the FV was consistent with circulating coins of the same denomination. So, in this sense are more "real" coins than modern commemoratives.
Thank you for saying this. It's okay to disagree from time to time.
I just don't buy into the mythology that Morgan and Peace dollars were made to circulate. Relatively few of them did, outside of casinos in Nevada and a few western states.
I understand your point and collectors who collect the series know it too. The majority still don't seem to consider the two equivalent. There appears to be a lot of financially related buying with Morgan dollars but even with this, I doubt the prices would be so high if my description isn't "directionally accurate".
That was my point in throwing proofs into the mix too. Its apparent collectors view these coins as I described in my last post too, not always but usually.
@NJCoin said:
The older coins don't exist because millions of people socked them away for a century and they are now seeing the light of day. They exist because they never circulated, and were taken out of storage when savvy dealers and collectors recognized the opportunity decades after they were made.
When I put together my Carson City Morgan set, I specifically searched out coins that people did pull from circulation and sock away, because I absolutely did not want the ones that had sat in a vault until being discovered and marketed by the General Services Administration.
@NJCoin said:
The older coins don't exist because millions of people socked them away for a century and they are now seeing the light of day. They exist because they never circulated, and were taken out of storage when savvy dealers and collectors recognized the opportunity decades after they were made.
When I put together my Carson City Morgan set, I specifically searched out coins that people did pull from circulation and sock away, because I absolutely did not want the ones that had sat in a vault until being discovered and marketed by the General Services Administration.
That's great. But, aside from a select few very rare dates, most collectors have no interest in them, and they sell for little more than bullion value.
If you are interested, you should Google the great liquidation of silver dollars in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Many millions of coins flew out the door at $1 each until the Treasury finally woke up and held back the last few million coins that were sold off in the 1970s in the GSA.
As a result, literally tens of millions of uncirculated dollars exist today that also sat in government vaults for decades before release, but were not part of the GSA sale. How and why do you distinguish them from coins that were sold a decade later? Many of them were broken out of their GSA holders. Or do you just stick to coins pulled from junk bins?
@WCC said:
I understand your point and collectors who collect the series know it too. The majority still don't seem to consider the two equivalent. There appears to be a lot of financially related buying with Morgan dollars but even with this, I doubt the prices would be so high if my description isn't "directionally accurate".
Not just collectors, at the LCS near me they all have the new ones in a separate case with their modern bullion and modern commems, at the last few coin shows I've been to the bullion sellers had them, and many of the coin sellers did not. Also the registry sets do not add the moderns into the classic sets at least not that I've seen. I'm not a Morgan collector, I have a date set, but I find other coins more interesting. I am very fond of the peace dollars, but I like the classics, that have history, and I actually prefer lightly circulated coins to unc.
They are beautiful coins, but I don't see the moderns as anything more than a revenue opportunity for the mint. I didn't see them as "real" silver Dollars, I know not everyone shares that opinion.
Thanks for the reminder. I just canceled all my subscriptions. Seems that the mint is now treating these like the numismatic versions of the ASE. I don’t have any interest in collecting those. And if that’s what they are doing with this series, I’m out.
@NJCoin said:
As a result, literally tens of millions of uncirculated dollars exist today that also sat in government vaults for decades before release, but were not part of the GSA sale. How and why do you distinguish them from coins that were sold a decade later? Many of them were broken out of their GSA holders. Or do you just stick to coins pulled from junk bins?
I'm not a hardcore collector, and my belief so far (at least regarding Carson City Morgans) is that the GSA is the one that flooded the market with certain years of CC-marked Morgans. I have no idea if the Mint released CC's in the few decades prior to the GSA.
As for my Carson City set, I focused on PCGS-holdered coins between XF40 and AU50. I was very specific in not wanting grades outside of that range.
@WCC said:
I understand your point and collectors who collect the series know it too. The majority still don't seem to consider the two equivalent. There appears to be a lot of financially related buying with Morgan dollars but even with this, I doubt the prices would be so high if my description isn't "directionally accurate".
Not just collectors, at the LCS near me they all have the new ones in a separate case with their modern bullion and modern commems, at the last few coin shows I've been to the bullion sellers had them, and many of the coin sellers did not. Also the registry sets do not add the moderns into the classic sets at least not that I've seen. I'm not a Morgan collector, I have a date set, but I find other coins more interesting. I am very fond of the peace dollars, but I like the classics, that have history, and I actually prefer lightly circulated coins to unc.
They are beautiful coins, but I don't see the moderns as anything more than a revenue opportunity for the mint. I didn't see them as "real" silver Dollars, I know not everyone shares that opinion.
Yes. "Real" is in the eye of the beholder. Literally everything the Mint sells through its numismatic sales division is a "revenue opportunity." So, I guess, in your eyes, anything that isn't plucked from change, or from rolls at the bank, or from a dealer's case at a show, B&M or auction, is not "real." Correct?
At the end of the day, the Mint is just another dealer. Not having any interest in moderns is one thing. Declaring anything minted after some arbitrary date in the past is not real is another.
@steve_richardson said:
Thanks for the reminder. I just canceled all my subscriptions. Seems that the mint is now treating these like the numismatic versions of the ASE. I don’t have any interest in collecting those. And if that’s what they are doing with this series, I’m out.
They sure are! In fact, they also offer literal numismatic versions of the ASE -- proof and burnished. Demand exists, and they satisfy it.
I'll buy a couple of each; they're pretty, and I like them.
FWIW, I see little (or no) difference between buying these and buying common-date old Morgans. They're a play in the silver market, and a speculation as to what collectors will do with them in the future. But they're not very expensive (relative to most of what I buy these days), so I really don't much care what happens to the market value of these modern Morgans in the future.
The point is not too far down the road very few people will be interested in collecting coins and the value of even the classics
will decline greatly as the supply will far far far far exceed demand. Modern mint coins will crash way sooner.
Stop buying and dump everything before you walk toward the light.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
I was a buyer at $76 a coin like last year. Maybe $80 to factor the increase in silver spot. But $91 per coin and I assume more for the two coin set, I just cancelled all my subscriptions for these. Too much, more for you all!
@DreamingCoins said:
I was a buyer at $76 a coin like last year. Maybe $80 to factor the increase in silver spot. But $91 per coin and I assume more for the two coin set, I just cancelled all my subscriptions for these. Too much, more for you all!
Same, UNC subscriptions deactivated. An increase of $30 for the pair exceeds my OCD/desire to keep the new series going in the collection. I would rather wait until big boys need to unload slabbed MS70s at around that price if I continue.
Plus, I'm a bit ticked that they aren't even following by their own statements. Per the subscription page...
These prices may change during the course of your subscription. Should a change occur, the new price will be listed on your 30-day pre-fulfillment notification. Please review your notification carefully.
My 30-day notice said $76... IMO, prices should be locked at that point. Gov does what gov does though.
Price Update for Morgan and Peace Silver Dollar Uncirculated Coin Subscriptions
Due to the rise of the spot price of silver and other costs, the United States Mint is raising prices on all numismatic silver products effective July 9, 2024, except for our commemorative coin program products.
@smuglr said:
The on sale date on these has changed to July 13.
Where are you seeing this? My e-mail says 7/11. The Mint product schedule says 7/11. The FUN show starts on 7/11, and these will be released there. 7/13 is a Saturday. Nothing is ever released on a Saturday. Nothing has changed other than the price.
@smuglr said:
The on sale date on these has changed to July 13.
Where are you seeing this? My e-mail says 7/11. The Mint product schedule says 7/11. The FUN show starts on 7/11, and these will be released there. 7/13 is a Saturday. Nothing is ever released on a Saturday. Nothing has changed other than the price.
You are correct, for some reason when I opened the site it defaulted to the 2023 schedule with the July 13 date.
Comments
I do commend the mint for striking new coinage. I so wish they didn't lack originality and this reverting to allegory with the cheesiest mint marks ( CC to be more specific) . For me, it just took away my desire to complete a series. I think it all started in 2009 when the silver eagle proofs were not available , due to "collector" demand for bullion. How could the collector be so justly rewarded than to interrupt one of the most successful series since '86.
But, I digress. I didn't mind the gold Kennedy fiasco or the gold Mercury dime, Standing Liberty Quarter and Walking Liberty half commemorated in 2016, I just cannot latch on to these collector pieces and that is great news for those who do. No competition makes the hobby most enjoyable.
Not I
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I typically say that anything specifically made for collectors almost never appreciate without a secondary driver like PM. It’s the utilitarian items that disappeared from attrition that have nostalgia for liquid, cash flow people that become appreciating collectibles. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a wide collector base for the made for collectors stuff, it just never disappears at a rate that would drive appreciation. The collectors typically dry up quicker
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I still have my subscriptions but will reduce and maybe cancel.
Hardly anyone wants these….so they will become the sleeper key/semi key coins….and then we’ll all kick ourselves for not buying them…lol
Nah. Lot of people want them. It's just that people here want mintages to be lower, to drive secondary market demand, and/or want prices to be lower, because the lower the price point, the higher the upside potential for them.
This is not to say that people might not lose interest as the novelty wears off. But, the Mint has seen how many they could sell, and what similar items sell for on the secondary market, so they have a pretty good idea of how many they can sell at a given price point.
They proved it last year, and are simply trying to replicate it now. Us pooping all over these is going to accomplish nothing.
People actually taking a pass, en masse, will. But that's just not going to happen. Sales dipping from 275K to 200K is not going to create a modern rarity. And sales are not going to stall at 35K.
The Morgan and Peace Dollars are popular series so there will always be demand.
beware of the race to the bottom
I don't know I think we should poop all over them. They have the ordering process down, takes your order and then execute. Its not rocket science. They have the market research or they should to determine mintage based on pre-order demand. They may come up a little long or short who cares? Hold over the blanks for next year, rinse, repeat etc. What am I missing here?
Geez what a government operation!
That Rick Tomska has recorded a half hour segment pumping up slabs for 2.5x what my raw ones cost me. Sometimes it 3am and weekend AM TV is lacking. I dvr'd it. These may not be for you but some random aspiring collectors pay a bunch more for these, a gift for their heirs to regret or be happy. I like them for issue $, I really dig reverse proofs as they are just so incredibly odd looking & yet somewhat familiar. I am a full pass on the uncs, so with my luck they will be more "valuable" for for $4 less, why not buy proofs and proof variants ?
Just received the Ancient Membership badge and I am starting to feel "Ancient", however, after two heart failures
"I'm Still Standing" because "Only the good die young".
Less than two weeks until the uncirculated go on sale and I am out. Done with modern mint coins and have sold off almost all of my collection so the grandkids can't sell them for melt and buy video games.
I changed my subscriptions to zero. Mintage is too high.
I changed all my subscriptions to zero just last week as well. I have the first year, and a complete set from last year, and as far as this set is concerned I'm done. Id rather spend my money on the real Morgan and peace dollars. I have a near complete set of ASE, I don't need another set of basically the same thing.
Fair enough, but you should realize that these are "real" Morgan and Peace Dollars.
Issued by the US government. Made by the US Mint.
Authorized by Congress. Fully monetized.
Just like the so-called "real" ones from 100+ years ago, that circulated just about as much, given how many of the classic ones were melted down without ever leaving the Treasury, or sat undisturbed in Treasury vaults for 50+ years until numismatic value, and then the rising price of silver, created collector and dealer demand in the late 1950s and early 1960s, causing them to finally fly out of the vaults at $1 each, even though they were worth far more than that, even at the time.
The only difference is that these are made in far lower numbers, and are being sold for far more than $1. Both due to the bullion value, and due to the fact that, unlike in the 1950s and 1960s, the government now understands the collector value of the coins, so they are not giving them away at far below market value. Rather, they are selling them for what the market will bear.
So definitely feel free to spend your money however you see fit. Just understand that a 100+ year old uncirculated Morgan dollar that you buy for $76 is worth exactly as much as a 2024 uncirculated Morgan dollar that I buy from the Mint for $76. No more, no less. And it is nothing more than blind speculation to think that you know which one will be worth more than the other in the future.
Probably be buyer at 20 pct behind CDN bid.
I'm in for at least 2 of each the 5 issues. I just like them. Each to their own..
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I've agreed with most of your posts in this thread, but not this one.
There is a big difference to most collectors. The "real" Morgan dollars were intended to circulate. These are not because no coin selling for such a large premium to FV will ever enter circulation intentionally, especially since all current circulating coinage is base metal.
What I am describing is evident to somewhat evident in how coins are viewed in the aggregate as collectibles measured by the same level of rarity.
Circulation strikes > circulation proofs > commemoratives or patterns.
Classic commemoratives were also sold at a premium (much lower premium) but a low proportion did circulate and the FV was consistent with circulating coins of the same denomination. So, in this sense are more "real" coins than modern commemoratives.
That would make all proofs not "real".
You're missing my point.
It's that circulating coins aren't viewed equivalently to others. Yes, proofs are viewed as "real" coins, but the much lower mintage is not viewed equivalently vs. any circulating coin with roughly the same mintage.
I'm not missing your point at all. You threw proofs into the mix. They can be NCLT and still be part of the series, even if less desirable than other parts of the series.
I bought what was flipable in 2021, plus one each (P) to keep for the type set. Then got one each of the proofs in 2023, again for the type set. Couldn’t get the RP’s. So…. this year on those two and likely done, barring a new finish.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
Thank you for saying this. It's okay to disagree from time to time.
I just don't buy into the mythology that Morgan and Peace dollars were made to circulate. Relatively few of them did, outside of casinos in Nevada and a few western states.
They were made as a sop to mining interests, melted down, and then made again. They were never Indian Head cents, Mercury dimes, Buffalo nickels, etc.
Millions of them exist today in uncirculated condition because they literally never circulated. Just like the millions of coins that will be made today. Yes, the modern coins are being made to satisfy a collector demand, at a very large premium to face value.
There was almost no collector demand 100+ years ago, and the coins then were made for a different reason. But, other than the dates, there is absolutely no difference between a classic uncirculated dollar you can get for less than $100 and these.
The older coins don't exist because millions of people socked them away for a century and they are now seeing the light of day. They exist because they never circulated, and were taken out of storage when savvy dealers and collectors recognized the opportunity decades after they were made.
Today the Mint sees the same opportunity, and manufactures them to satisfy the exact same demand. If you want to draw a distinction, it is certainly your right to do so. If all collectors agreed, there would be no market for these at 3-4x bullion value, and they wouldn't be made.
I understand your point and collectors who collect the series know it too. The majority still don't seem to consider the two equivalent. There appears to be a lot of financially related buying with Morgan dollars but even with this, I doubt the prices would be so high if my description isn't "directionally accurate".
That was my point in throwing proofs into the mix too. Its apparent collectors view these coins as I described in my last post too, not always but usually.
When I put together my Carson City Morgan set, I specifically searched out coins that people did pull from circulation and sock away, because I absolutely did not want the ones that had sat in a vault until being discovered and marketed by the General Services Administration.
My Carson City Morgan Registry Set
Yes, I am in for 2 of each.
That's great. But, aside from a select few very rare dates, most collectors have no interest in them, and they sell for little more than bullion value.
If you are interested, you should Google the great liquidation of silver dollars in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Many millions of coins flew out the door at $1 each until the Treasury finally woke up and held back the last few million coins that were sold off in the 1970s in the GSA.
As a result, literally tens of millions of uncirculated dollars exist today that also sat in government vaults for decades before release, but were not part of the GSA sale. How and why do you distinguish them from coins that were sold a decade later? Many of them were broken out of their GSA holders. Or do you just stick to coins pulled from junk bins?
I’ll get a slabbed 2024 Peace.
Not just collectors, at the LCS near me they all have the new ones in a separate case with their modern bullion and modern commems, at the last few coin shows I've been to the bullion sellers had them, and many of the coin sellers did not. Also the registry sets do not add the moderns into the classic sets at least not that I've seen. I'm not a Morgan collector, I have a date set, but I find other coins more interesting. I am very fond of the peace dollars, but I like the classics, that have history, and I actually prefer lightly circulated coins to unc.
They are beautiful coins, but I don't see the moderns as anything more than a revenue opportunity for the mint. I didn't see them as "real" silver Dollars, I know not everyone shares that opinion.
Not me, I did 2021 & 2023, that's enough for me...
Thanks for the reminder. I just canceled all my subscriptions. Seems that the mint is now treating these like the numismatic versions of the ASE. I don’t have any interest in collecting those. And if that’s what they are doing with this series, I’m out.
There is a reason Stacks Bowers sells Mint commemoratives in bullion auctions at barely over melt. Nobody wants them anymore.
These are not in that category yet. But there is excellent potential.
Overpromotion and overproduction is a dangerous game
I'm not a hardcore collector, and my belief so far (at least regarding Carson City Morgans) is that the GSA is the one that flooded the market with certain years of CC-marked Morgans. I have no idea if the Mint released CC's in the few decades prior to the GSA.
As for my Carson City set, I focused on PCGS-holdered coins between XF40 and AU50. I was very specific in not wanting grades outside of that range.
My Carson City Morgan Registry Set
Yes. "Real" is in the eye of the beholder. Literally everything the Mint sells through its numismatic sales division is a "revenue opportunity." So, I guess, in your eyes, anything that isn't plucked from change, or from rolls at the bank, or from a dealer's case at a show, B&M or auction, is not "real." Correct?
At the end of the day, the Mint is just another dealer. Not having any interest in moderns is one thing. Declaring anything minted after some arbitrary date in the past is not real is another.
They sure are! In fact, they also offer literal numismatic versions of the ASE -- proof and burnished. Demand exists, and they satisfy it.
I'll buy a couple of each; they're pretty, and I like them.
FWIW, I see little (or no) difference between buying these and buying common-date old Morgans. They're a play in the silver market, and a speculation as to what collectors will do with them in the future. But they're not very expensive (relative to most of what I buy these days), so I really don't much care what happens to the market value of these modern Morgans in the future.
The point is not too far down the road very few people will be interested in collecting coins and the value of even the classics
will decline greatly as the supply will far far far far exceed demand. Modern mint coins will crash way sooner.
Stop buying and dump everything before you walk toward the light.
Per the mint, $91 per coin now. Ouch!
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
I was a buyer at $76 a coin like last year. Maybe $80 to factor the increase in silver spot. But $91 per coin and I assume more for the two coin set, I just cancelled all my subscriptions for these. Too much, more for you all!
Can someone save me the trouble of researching, and let me know if there are any new finishes or versions this year?
Not sure I want to let it ride this year.
The on sale date on these has changed to July 13.
Same, UNC subscriptions deactivated. An increase of $30 for the pair exceeds my OCD/desire to keep the new series going in the collection. I would rather wait until big boys need to unload slabbed MS70s at around that price if I continue.
Plus, I'm a bit ticked that they aren't even following by their own statements. Per the subscription page...
My 30-day notice said $76... IMO, prices should be locked at that point. Gov does what gov does though.
Price Update for Morgan and Peace Silver Dollar Uncirculated Coin Subscriptions
Due to the rise of the spot price of silver and other costs, the United States Mint is raising prices on all numismatic silver products effective July 9, 2024, except for our commemorative coin program products.
Per the current schedule, same as 2023.
Uncirculated (P): separate M&P items
Proof (S): separate M&P items
Reverse Proof (S): two-coin set
Where are you seeing this? My e-mail says 7/11. The Mint product schedule says 7/11. The FUN show starts on 7/11, and these will be released there. 7/13 is a Saturday. Nothing is ever released on a Saturday. Nothing has changed other than the price.
Nothing new, other than the price.
You are correct, for some reason when I opened the site it defaulted to the 2023 schedule with the July 13 date.
$91.00 from the mint.
These coins are toast. Only the hard core addicts will be buying these.
Just got an email from the mint that seems to imply that if you lock in before 7/9, you get the current prices. TC
Morgan Silver Dollar Uncirculated Coin
Current Price…………….….$76
Price Effective July 9……....$91
Peace Silver Dollar Uncirculated Coin
Current Price…………….….$76
Price Effective July 9……....$91
But the new release comes out 7/11, so you will be paying $91.