Dipped Coins
DisneyFan
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Are you more comfortable buying a PCGS over dipped coin without a CAC or buying a CACG Detailed (Cleaned) coin?
Dipped Coins
This is a private poll: no-one will see what you voted for.
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DisneyFan
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Can I say neither?
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
Both sound pretty bad!
Dave
Dipped is not cleaned.
PCGS (and others) rewards luster and a dark toned coin dipped resulting in a brilliant white coin with high luster often gets a higher grade.
Dip a coin multiple times, then you get a flat looking dull coin with no luster and then this coin is deemed 'cleaned'.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
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I believe that the answer would depend upon the coin and the price. Generalities don’t usually tell us much.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think it would be cool to see/buy a PCGS details coin with a CAC sticker on it, any details type would be sufficient.
Mr_Spud
From the CACG website:
Cleaned: These coins exhibit signs of surface manipulation through abrasion or “over-dipping”. Cleaning is generally performed erroneously by someone attempting to improve a coin’s appearance. “Dipping” a coin in a mild acid solution may successfully remove tarnish. However, it can obliterate flow line reflectivity if left in the solution for an extended period. Dipping a coin is not recommended for beginners.
I would generally prefer to avoid dipped coins altogether, instead going for those that have original blast white surfaces or tone.
Coin Photographer.
Maybe someone more experienced than me can confirm but any silver coin is eventually going to have too much toning/corrosion/patina/tarnish/silver oxide (whatever you prefer to call it) to have original blast white surfaces.
Are there any Barbers/Morgans/Peaces with blast white surfaces that have not been put into acid?
I’m assuming we’re talking about the same coin. In that case I would take the PCGS without CAC over a CACG Details grade. The “details” designation screams a “problem” that held the coin back from a straight grade.
CAC still stickers coins that are dipped just as long as the luster is still there.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Choice 3 - Bamboo shoots under the fingernails
A large population of Carson City Morgans.
Coin Photographer.
I’d change “Carson City Morgans” to “Morgans”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
.> @FlyingAl said:
If you have any proof to support your assertion, I'll be happy to consider it.
However, convincing me that a blast white 130+ year old silver coin can have surfaces completely free of silver oxide/silver sulfide (a/k/a corrosion) without being put into acid will not be easy. Obviously, simply posting pics will not be sufficient.
Is there anyone on the board from PCGS Restoration or NCS?
“Dipped” is not the same as “cleaned.” You can’t explain that to some people. A dipped coin can get a CAC sticker, but once more some people will never believe that.
A “details” coin is usually a problem coin. The fact that CACG has graded it does not make it more desirable.
What would serve as adequate “proof” to you? How about statements from numismatists who have examined thousands of Morgan dollars in original bags?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I can't get past or my mind wrapped around a PCGS over dipped coin without a CAC sticker.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Who did you have in mind? 😉
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Are you being facetious or do you want one of us to find an example? There’s plenty to be found.
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I have a hunch Mark himself is among those lucky few 😂.
You could look at any number of the GSA Morgan dollars. I guarantee you the government did not go through the trouble of dipping them. If they are blast white in those holders, that’s how they’ve always been.
Coin Photographer.
Hey Mark,
Just like I wouldn't expect a chemist to grade a coin, I also wouldn't expect a numismatist to teach a chemistry class.
There is an ongoing chemical reaction occurring on the surfaces of ALL silver and copper coins the second they leave the press. Some call the result patina or toning. Others call it corrosion or tarnish. Whatever you call it, it's on your silver and copper coins whether you want it or not (even if you can't see it).
I do acknowledge it is possible that the result of the chemical reaction may be so miniscule that it might not prevent the coin from appearing blast white for a certain amount of time.
I do not know why some coins get more toning than others. I also don't know how long it normally takes for the toning to become visible or what affects the timeframe. That's why I'm not making blanket statements here (outside of discussing basic chemistry).
A statement from a professional coin conservationist who has a working knowledge of chemistry would suffice.
P.S. You've probably noticed that I prefer coins that don't have to worry about toning/patina/corrosion/tarnish (except for the occasional copper spot).
If we can’t see this reaction that’s going on at a molecular level, doesn’t that defeat the purpose of dipping a coin?
An original blast white coin is one that looks white to my eyes and hasn’t been dipped.
Coin Photographer.
Hi Chris and thanks for placing your name at the bottom of your post. I had no idea that was you posting.😀
For the record, I have no desire or ability to try to teach a chemistry class. 😉 But numerous numismatists have seen very large quantities of undipped blast-white Morgan dollars in bags that had just been opened. If that’s not adequate proof, so be it. And by the way, on a practical basis, I don’t see how a chemist could provide better proof, one way or the other.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
No, I'm not being facetious. I suppose there are plenty out there. I just never got into the CAC sticker thing. I shouldn't have even posted or commented. Sorry, I think I’ll go home now.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I believe that PCGS & NGC would only put coins with problematic advanced toning into acid. And then only if they determine that the coin would still straight grade afterwards.
Your definition of original blast white coin is the same as mine.
Maybe the GSA Morgans were stored in a manner which very effectively slowed down the toning process - low humidity, for example.
I thought about calling you a doo doo head but then remembered I like you so I decided on including my name instead haha.
I imagine a chemist could explain why some coins get more toning than others and some develop toning more quickly.
Outside of vacuum sealing a coin, I don't think the toning process can be completely stopped - but I bet a chemist would know.
Maybe the GSA Morgans owe their good luck to low-humidity storage? I'm eager to learn why they seem to have avoided visible toning when others could not.
If you're in the office tomorrow, stop by the viewing room between 10 and noon and say hi if you're free.
I did not see bamboo entering the discussion... but sadly it seems to be a viable option in the context of this thread,
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
No worries, we’re all here to learn. Imo, this one is overdipped. Others could probably provide better examples but this one looks “burned” to me and it suffices as an example I can find upon a quick search. CAC won’t sticker these types of coins, and at CACG they will details it as “cleaned”.
In addition to this MS coin, you’ll see a ton of “white” bust halves, early federal, and seated dollars that are in circulated grades. Generally, circulated coins should not be white. PCGS is tighter about this than they’ve been in the past, but there’s a lot of crap already languishing out there.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/standing-liberty-quarters/1917-d-25c-type-one-ms65-pcgs-pcgs-population-84-29-ngc-census-55-20-cdn-675-whsle-bid-for-problem-free-ngc-pcg/a/1258-7461.s
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Ok, seems like we’re mostly on the same page then.
I vaguely remember reading the vaults the GSA Morgan’s were stored in had no special safeguards intact to preserve the coins. I do know that the mint had to rebag a few coins due to the fibers degrading over the years.
Coin Photographer.
Thanks @DeplorableDan!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I can't grade; but, from the picture this looks like a nice coin. On the other hand, if the coin were in hand, I probably could tell whether it had been overdipped. What do you mean by "burned?"
From what I have learned, Insider, the guy who started NCS is banned from CU. Ask your question on one of the other forums where he will see it.
Anyway, I feel that no matter how old the coin is, if it is white and I cannot tell if is was dipped or not, then it is "original enough" for my collection.
OK, Mark Feld knows Chris Wallace. I never heard of him so 'm going to guess he is a chemist. We both have only three stars so don't mind us. That's the problem with chat forums. Many of us don't have a clue who we are posting with. FAIK, Mr. Wallace could have written the "book" on what he is posting about. However, I'll suggest that Mr. Wallace ignore things that are there yet he cannot see like some degree of oxidation, and alien visitors.
If only my OCD didn't send me down so many rabbit holes haha. For better or worse, unanswered questions tend to gnaw at me.
I'm def not a chemist but chemistry and physics were subjects I really enjoyed and still read about.
So maybe the old time large cent guys were on to something with their shellac, varnish, and God knows what else?
Somebody tell the TGPs to make their holders impermeable to hydrogen sulfide and oxygen, think of all the reholder fees!
It’s quite difficult to put into words what the “burn” effect is, but generally the luster is washed out and dull and the coin is devoid of life, the luster “bloom” is no more, and the coin has a chalky grey appearance.
That example may not be the best because it’s not glaringly obvious, but to my eye it looks a bit over dipped in that photo. To better illustrate the “burn effect”, I’ll show you the Norweb 93-s. Someone had the coin conserved and NCS made a grave mistake during conservation.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1893-s-1-ms67-ngc/a/1158-7332.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
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"The original toning was forever destroyed. The coin became characterized by a nearly uniform, gray-white
chalk color, which appeared unnatural and irritating. Hopefully, it has since naturally retoned to a noticeable
extent. Heritage offered the Norweb 1893-S at auction in April 2008, though it did not then sell. The Norweb 1893-S was last publicly seen when Heritage auctioned it in Aug. 2011 for "$546,250." A very reliable and appropriate source
indicates that NGC was the successful bidder at that Heritage auction, though it may be that NGC purchased the Norweb 1893-S from the successful bidder. Either way, NGC 'bought it back' and reduced its grade from "MS-67" to "MS-66.""
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So in this case, an overdipped can was reduced from a MS67 to an MS66. Rather than be judged as Details (Cleaned), should overdipped coins simply have their grade reduced one notch?
The difficulty for the average collector is determining a "fair" price for any Detailed (Cleaned) coin.
I recall seeing at a recent FUN Show 50 blast white later date Barber dimes offered as a wholesale lot that came from an original roll.
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At this point it might be good to have agreed to definitions of say dipped, over dipped and on. I don't have those definitions but for the purpose here I will assume over dipped refers to a non-market acceptable dipped coin or a details graded coin due to dipping. Now determining when a coin is over-dipped is somewhat like determining when a coin is details graded due to cleaning or the cleaning is not market acceptable. That is there are varying degrees of dipping until it becomes over dipped or not market acceptable. So perhaps if a coin is dipped to having muted luster but not over-dipped, then it might get a reduced grade due to weak or impaired luster but still market acceptable. If the dipping is light it could be basically unnoticeable and not impact the grade.
Here is a previous thread where the Morgan Dollar is over-dipped and not market acceptable and would be details graded (at least in my opinion).
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1077119/1-1883-o-over-dip#latest
So the coin deplorable dan referenced from the heritage auction does not look like this one at least to me. So is it market acceptable (it was to pcgs). The Norweb is another example - is it market acceptable?
For reference here is the Norweb from the 1988 auction and then from a photo of a photo in a book (limited by book quality photo).
From (page 357): https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/auctionlots?AucCoId=4&AuctionId=524012
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
@Baylor8670
On the silver toning, a couple of other things to think about that might help. There are crescent toned Morgan dollars. These are often said to be from one coin resting between another coin a the bag. While these crescent toned Morgans might not be blast white in the 'untoned' area, I think it might demonstrate how much the toning can be reduced just by this. I just did a search and here is one.
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So if a Morgan Dollar is resting in the bag but not against the bag could it remain essentially untoned?
Here is a photo of stacks of Morgan bags (again pulled from a search). This is just to give a reference to them. Probably not a lot of air circulating around those dollars in the bag and perhaps 'protecting' them from the elements.
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A little history on the Morgans is that the Bland act and Sherman act provided for the Morgan dollars to be produced. But this was not for the need to have them in circulation. So there was an abundance of them. Then the Pittman act in 1918 was to melt millions of them. More were melted during WWII. VAM references 333 million melted (most Morgans but not all). Another reference states that the treasury released some 150 million plus dollars between 1960 - 1964. Still there was 'hoards' like the Redfield and then Continental bank release in 1982/83 with circulated and uncirculated bags of dollars. So the point here is that there were millions of Morgans that mostly rested in bags. As noted above the GSA dollars give a glimpse of what they could have looked like.
One other thing, I recall reading that the bags were impregnated (or whatever the best term is) with sulfur. I understand that this was to deter rodents. This might be why those near or touching the bag toned more.
EDIT: I should also mention that a quick dip of a coin used to be maybe more common. I recall a couple of local shops that would do this before putting in 2x2 to sell (this decades ago). I don't know but just seemed like a semi-common practice. I guess to just get any 'stuff' off the coin. So perhaps many dollars (and other) have seen a dip but just not enough to know it because it is simply not enough to be seen.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
That's some great info. Thanks for sharing.
Maybe the best way to put a bow on this discussion is to agree that it almost certainly requires unique storage conditions for a 100 year old silver coin to not have visible toning without being dipped.
I don't like bows. Besides, IMHO 90% of collectors can't tell if a coin was ever dipped or not.
I would absolutely not buy either coin!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Would not take either. Don’t buy problem coins. The poll should have 3rd choice for that.
Presumably, @DisneyFan was interested in finding out what people would prefer (if given just those two options). So he had no need to offer additional choices. And plenty of people buy problem coins.
You're free to start your own poll if you'd like to.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I believe that the four bags laying on the floor in this picture were Lafayette dollars.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
I am a chemist. The surfaces need something to react with. When you pack them tightly in bags and seal them in a vault for 100 years they do not have any humidity and limited oxygen turnover. As a result, they tone MUCH MUCH MUCH more slowly.
Is the price the same? In general, the straight graded coin will cost more, often significantly more.
If you want to buy the coin, I think you want/need it to be properly described. It doesn't really matter whose holder it is in.
Maybe the 14,000 Lafayettes that were melted down in 1945.
From CoinFacts: "The unsold remainder, amounting to 14,000 coins, went to the Treasury Building in Washington, D.C., where unknown to collectors the pieces were stored in cloth bags of 1,000 each in the same vault used to store large bundles of currency (including $5,000 and $10,000 notes). In the meantime Lafayette dollars had become desirable numismatic items.
In 1945 the Treasury Department converted the pieces to silver bullion, not realizing that the coins could have been sold at 10 times face value or more."