@CardGeek said:
Sometiems I feel like im arguing with myself.
the players want to "save" their arms because of cash, not wins. how many pitchers are or were considered great because they start 28 games a year?
since 2000. how many pitchers would you consider great? kershaw? verlander? scherzer?
kershaw has won 206 games, scherzer about the same.
vida blue won 209. mark buehrle 214, reuschel 214. kevin brown 214. these guys are hardly 5 star pitchers, but that's who kershaw and scherzer are historical.
jaime moyer 269 wins and 33 complete games. maddux had 109 complete games. all of your top pitchers of all-time have a lot of complete games and played for a long-time.
you notice kershaw and scherzer are always hurt every year. even though they barely pitch 150 innings a year. and these are your top two or three pitchers historically still playing. pretty sad statistically, but they laugh all the way to the bank.
Blue, Buehrle, and Reuschel were all really good pitchers. Brown was as good as or better than a majority of HoFers. But your 200 game winners also include the likes of Jesse Haines, Tim Wakefield, Jerry Reuss, and Fat Freddy Fitzsimmons, none of whom is likely to be in your top 250, and Joe Niekro and Lew Burdette who aren't in the top 300.
Wins isn't as bad a way to measure pitchers as fielding percentage is to measure shortstops, but there is just a lot more to the story than that. If you want to say Kershaw and Verlander aren't as good as Mussina, Schilling, Jenkins, or Glavine, I'll listen. I'll disagree, but I'll listen. If you'll say that they aren't as good as Don Sutton or Early Wynn, both of whom, you'll note, won 300 games, then we have nothing to talk about.
@olb31 said:
no watch the college world series. they let their pitchers throw 100, 120 plus.
Aside from the college vs MLB comparison, you are still focusing on an arbitrary pitch count metric that someone told you what it should be. You and Roberts are exactly the same. Whether it's 75 or 100, doesn't matter. If you had said NO number, but whether the pitcher is losing his stuff, or game situation, or catcher's opinion, etc., then I'm in agreement. Instead, you're picking a pitch count number and inning number, just like the guy you're complaining about. Would the all time greats be greats if pulled by your 100 pitch number ?
My 13 year old son pitched 102 pitches the other day in a travel game. His pitch count only crossed my mind when my wife said something to me. Roberts is the one that cares about pitch count, I don't. I think the starters should go a minimum of six every night, if things are looking good they should pitch the whole game.
No matter the situation? Sounds even worse managing than Roberts.
First you said 100-120 pitches, now you're saying 6 innings minimum. I still don't see the difference of you using set arbitrary numbers and Roberts doing the same.
I will give you an example. Sheehan had a no hitter through 6 innings and the dodgers were winning. Would you leave him in or take him out? When I grew up in the 70's and 80's, there would be no thought process, he would stay in. But for Roberts he thought he was a good time to take him out. The Dodgers bull pen promptly lost the game.
on June 14, Kershaw pitched six and was winning by 2 runs (4-2). but his pitch count was 97, so based on roberts pitch count rulebook he pulled him. The bullpen promptly gave up 4 runs the next inning and the dodgers lost 8-4.
Kershaw probably would have 20 more wins, maybe more, if it wasn't for the "pitch count' guru Roberts.
So should a MLB manager be the manager of a pitchers career? or should the manager try to win games for the Organization? I think he's paid to win, not to manage Kershaw's career or whomever.
Limiting Kershaw has not lead to more innings or more games, in fact, just the opposite.
@FirstBeard said:
A few days ago, Dodger pitcher making rookie debut had a no hitter in the 6th. Up 4 runs. Their garbage manager pulled him and lost the game. This guy is Dusty Baker Jr.
Ha, Dusty wasn't known for pulling pitchers early!
He famously lost a World Series by pulling the staring pitcher AND handing him the game ball. That said, my comment was really about the sheer talent that Roberts has coached over the years with minimal results. Dusty had similar high caliber teams with SF, the Reds, nationals, etc and never won. These guys are awful managers.
@olb31 said:
no watch the college world series. they let their pitchers throw 100, 120 plus.
Aside from the college vs MLB comparison, you are still focusing on an arbitrary pitch count metric that someone told you what it should be. You and Roberts are exactly the same. Whether it's 75 or 100, doesn't matter. If you had said NO number, but whether the pitcher is losing his stuff, or game situation, or catcher's opinion, etc., then I'm in agreement. Instead, you're picking a pitch count number and inning number, just like the guy you're complaining about. Would the all time greats be greats if pulled by your 100 pitch number ?
My 13 year old son pitched 102 pitches the other day in a travel game. His pitch count only crossed my mind when my wife said something to me. Roberts is the one that cares about pitch count, I don't. I think the starters should go a minimum of six every night, if things are looking good they should pitch the whole game.
No matter the situation? Sounds even worse managing than Roberts.
First you said 100-120 pitches, now you're saying 6 innings minimum. I still don't see the difference of you using set arbitrary numbers and Roberts doing the same.
I will give you an example. Sheehan had a no hitter through 6 innings and the dodgers were winning. Would you leave him in or take him out? When I grew up in the 70's and 80's, there would be no thought process, he would stay in. But for Roberts he thought he was a good time to take him out. The Dodgers bull pen promptly lost the game.
on June 14, Kershaw pitched six and was winning by 2 runs (4-2). but his pitch count was 97, so based on roberts pitch count rulebook he pulled him. The bullpen promptly gave up 4 runs the next inning and the dodgers lost 8-4.
Kershaw probably would have 20 more wins, maybe more, if it wasn't for the "pitch count' guru Roberts.
So should a MLB manager be the manager of a pitchers career? or should the manager try to win games for the Organization? I think he's paid to win, not to manage Kershaw's career or whomever.
Limiting Kershaw has not lead to more innings or more games, in fact, just the opposite.
I'm old school I guess because I say leave him in if he's strong and still has good stuff and input from catcher and pitching coach.
The problem I have is you saying, starters must pitch min 6 innings. What if the pitcher gets rocked in 1st and has no stuff? Leave him in because of some arbitrary 6 inning number?
Roberts blindly pulling a pitcher for "max" pitch count and you saying starters should pitch "min" 100 pitches, is the same to me. Both don't take specific game situations into account.
Roberts pulls them to many times when he doesn't have too, is my point. This includes the bullpen, who he has coming in like a revolving door. Roberts worries about pitch count. I don't think it matters as much. Of course if it's 125 plus, maybe you would take that into consideration. Sheehan's pitch count was 69 and he had no hitter. Roberts took him. This is the type of idiocy I am talking about.
I also do not like bringing in a cold guy out of the pen, especially in meaningful games. Never know you will get. If a starter is cruising, let him go!
@FirstBeard said:
I also do not like bringing in a cold guy out of the pen, especially in meaningful games. Never know you will get. If a starter is cruising, let him go!
LOL. You just defined a closer.
Good thing HOF relievers Hoyt Wilhelm, Rollie Fingers, Goose Gossage, Bruce Sutter, Dennis Eckersley, Lee Smith, Trevor Hoffman, Mariano Riviera didn't have you as a manager.
That is their job and an important team role, despite olb31 thinking relievers are just guys that can't hack it as a starter.
@olb31 said:
Roberts worries about pitch count. I don't think it matters as much. Of course if it's 125 plus, maybe you would take that into consideration.
Of course? Still sounds like you care about pitch count just as much as Roberts. Just your arbitrary number may be a little higher than his. Its still the same approach.
Sometimes the catcher will tell the mgr. in the dugout that so and so is losing curve or fastball etc. and may have x number of pitches left. The mgr. then can decide when to pull based on batters coming up and what pitches they like to hit. Sometimes has nothing to do with pitch count. Pitching coaches have great influence on mgr. deceisions.
@olb31 said:
Roberts worries about pitch count. I don't think it matters as much. Of course if it's 125 plus, maybe you would take that into consideration.
Of course? Still sounds like you care about pitch count just as much as Roberts. Just your arbitrary number may be a little higher than his. Its still the same approach.
Yeah Ron, 69 pitches is the same as 125. I guess you think making $69,000 is the same as making $125,000. It's all just numbers, right?
@olb31 said:
Roberts worries about pitch count. I don't think it matters as much. Of course if it's 125 plus, maybe you would take that into consideration.
Of course? Still sounds like you care about pitch count just as much as Roberts. Just your arbitrary number may be a little higher than his. Its still the same approach.
Yeah Ron, 69 pitches is the same as 125. It's all just numbers, right?
Well yeah. 69 pitches to one pitcher may be the same to 125 pitches to another pitcher.
You keep saying you don't care about pitch count, yet every post of yours includes a pitch count number that you'd abide to.
Why did you choose 125 pitches as your number? (You know, the number you don't care about. LOL)
@olb31 said:
I guess you think making $69,000 is the same as making $125,000.
And since you're being silly...it would depend where that money is spent.
Me spending $69,000US in Bulgaria would be the same as you spending $125,000US in the US.
Millionaire players not doing their job, and the manager gets blamed. If they succeed, suddenly the manager's decision was genius. Always been that way.
@olb31 said:
kershaw 1 hitter through 6. 79 pitches. roberts took him out. lets see what happens.
Looks like it worked last night. Although the bull pen struggled some. I personally believe to keep the bull pen fresh, Have Kershaw go 1 more. But it worked.
@olb31 said:
kershaw 1 hitter through 6. 79 pitches. roberts took him out. lets see what happens.
Looks like it worked last night. Although the bull pen struggled some. I personally believe to keep the bull pen fresh, Have Kershaw go 1 more. But it worked.
Sorry to hear that. I know you were conflicted between seeing your Dodgers win and them blowing the game so you can dump on Roberts some more. LOL
Fair to question why he would ever put in Bickford. How is that guy in the League? Nearly 7 ERA?
What was his pitch count in 2/3 innings with 3 walks and 2 strikeouts? LOL
I think Bickford has been injured a lot of the season. In the past he has been pretty good. I haven't looked at the numbers though. Just watched him pitch. They've been using him as a closer lately. They had more specialized closers before.
Interestingly, I think Pujols hit #700 off Bickford. They blacked out the game that night.
I'd suggest giving Roberts a break. Managing is about anticipating the future - there isn't a single manager I can think of who isn't subject to this kind of criticism.
Of course, second-guessing managers is a national sport in itself.
Mark (amerbbcards)
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
@CardGeek said:
Urias, first day back from injury, struggled today.
A lot of softly hit balls and a couple of close plays at the plate that could have gone either way led to a 5-run first inning for the Royals.
Perez's RBI has to be just about one of the weakest I've ever seen him collect. The second baseman was covering with the runner stealing, and Perez hit a weak little popper that softly landed barely in the grass where the second baseman would have been positioned, and the run scored.
@CardGeek said:
Urias, first day back from injury, struggled today.
A lot of softly hit balls and a couple of close plays at the plate that could have gone either way led to a 5-run first inning for the Royals.
Perez's RBI has to be just about one of the weakest I've ever seen him collect. The second baseman was covering with the runner stealing, and Perez hit a weak little popper that softly landed barely in the grass where the second baseman would have been positioned, and the run scored.
I'm surprised the league allowed the second baseman to cover.
Next rule change: no one can move unless the batter swings. LOL
Did the league say the catcher can no longer block the plate?
That catcher is soft. Those runs would not have scored if Scioscia was behind the plate.
The Dodgers have had 6 starters go down this year, in some form or another. Plus at least 2 bullpen guys. It's either really bad luck or the ORganization isn't "managing" the pitching correctly. Maybe a combination of both. The pitch counts , 5 starters, number of innings, where supposed to help the pitchers longevity, but at least for the Dodgers, it's not.
Walker - 2 tommy's
Dustin - 2 Tommy's
Noah - basically done
Gonsolin - treading water
Kershaw - good but unbelievably fragile (on the IR again)
Julio - hanging in there
They should have kept Anderson.
The bullpen has been great for the last two - three weeks. Maybe Roberts plan of pitching the heck out of them is working. Looks good right now. Still need to find another starter.
dodgers about to go down 2-0. now it's not totally roberts fault that the pitching all had tommy joihn surgeries, but it's a common theme. win 100+ and division and fall flat in the playoffs. looking like bobby cox at the moment.
Back to where we left off last year. 5-0 lead and then go to all the sorry relief pitchers. Starting pitcher gave up 2 hits in 5. He should have gone at least 7. 5 innings out of your starters is pee wee league. That should have been an easy win.
dodgers just dropped back to back home series and have lost 3 out of the last 4 series overall. maybe if they can lose a few more series someone in dodgerville will open their eyes. bordering on horrific, imo. hitting is awful.
dodgers are falling apart .they have lost 7 of the last 9. 2-6 on the current 9 game homestand. hard for people to keep taking up for this total ineptness,
@CardGeek said:
Good one today. Dodgers 10 Mets 0. 8 shutout innings from the starter.
Like the 8 innings. VT had a big league over Duke yesterday in the 7, then the relievers gave up 9 runs in 2 2/3 innings. And VT lost. I am just no a huge bullpen guy. Obviously if you have Sutter or Eck or Rivera -- then its a no brainer, but theses middle relief guys just are not very dependable at any level.
Pro starters should give you at least 6 preferably 7 every outing.
Winning the WS requires multiple factors, injuries, September trades and call ups, hot streaks, especially toward the end of the season, etc. and more other significant factors. One odd one that can really help is when another WS opponent loses a good player and Atlanta losing Strider qualifies.
olb - you are stuck on this one, just ask the Dallas fans with McCarthy.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I dont really understand why they pulled the starter Sunday. He had a 10 run lead. His pitch count wasn't very high. I can see them thinking, it's early in the season, why push him. Maybe he didn't care about the complete game shutout and wanted out? I would think that would be an accomplishment a pitcher would want on the list.
@CardGeek said:
Lux had a good game hitting and fielding at 2nd. Smith 4 for 6. All 3 pitchers did well. The guy who pitched the 9th was interesting to watch.
I missed the ninth, but Knack did well. And the hitting looked much better.
They're getting huge value out of guys they probably didn't expect so much value out of offensively. Every guy in the lineup is crushing it. Firing on all cylinders. Long way to go.
Comments
Blue, Buehrle, and Reuschel were all really good pitchers. Brown was as good as or better than a majority of HoFers. But your 200 game winners also include the likes of Jesse Haines, Tim Wakefield, Jerry Reuss, and Fat Freddy Fitzsimmons, none of whom is likely to be in your top 250, and Joe Niekro and Lew Burdette who aren't in the top 300.
Wins isn't as bad a way to measure pitchers as fielding percentage is to measure shortstops, but there is just a lot more to the story than that. If you want to say Kershaw and Verlander aren't as good as Mussina, Schilling, Jenkins, or Glavine, I'll listen. I'll disagree, but I'll listen. If you'll say that they aren't as good as Don Sutton or Early Wynn, both of whom, you'll note, won 300 games, then we have nothing to talk about.
That's funny!!!
I will give you an example. Sheehan had a no hitter through 6 innings and the dodgers were winning. Would you leave him in or take him out? When I grew up in the 70's and 80's, there would be no thought process, he would stay in. But for Roberts he thought he was a good time to take him out. The Dodgers bull pen promptly lost the game.
on June 14, Kershaw pitched six and was winning by 2 runs (4-2). but his pitch count was 97, so based on roberts pitch count rulebook he pulled him. The bullpen promptly gave up 4 runs the next inning and the dodgers lost 8-4.
Kershaw probably would have 20 more wins, maybe more, if it wasn't for the "pitch count' guru Roberts.
So should a MLB manager be the manager of a pitchers career? or should the manager try to win games for the Organization? I think he's paid to win, not to manage Kershaw's career or whomever.
Limiting Kershaw has not lead to more innings or more games, in fact, just the opposite.
He famously lost a World Series by pulling the staring pitcher AND handing him the game ball. That said, my comment was really about the sheer talent that Roberts has coached over the years with minimal results. Dusty had similar high caliber teams with SF, the Reds, nationals, etc and never won. These guys are awful managers.
I'm old school I guess because I say leave him in if he's strong and still has good stuff and input from catcher and pitching coach.
The problem I have is you saying, starters must pitch min 6 innings. What if the pitcher gets rocked in 1st and has no stuff? Leave him in because of some arbitrary 6 inning number?
Roberts blindly pulling a pitcher for "max" pitch count and you saying starters should pitch "min" 100 pitches, is the same to me. Both don't take specific game situations into account.
Roberts pulls them to many times when he doesn't have too, is my point. This includes the bullpen, who he has coming in like a revolving door. Roberts worries about pitch count. I don't think it matters as much. Of course if it's 125 plus, maybe you would take that into consideration. Sheehan's pitch count was 69 and he had no hitter. Roberts took him. This is the type of idiocy I am talking about.
I also do not like bringing in a cold guy out of the pen, especially in meaningful games. Never know you will get. If a starter is cruising, let him go!
LOL. You just defined a closer.
Good thing HOF relievers Hoyt Wilhelm, Rollie Fingers, Goose Gossage, Bruce Sutter, Dennis Eckersley, Lee Smith, Trevor Hoffman, Mariano Riviera didn't have you as a manager.
That is their job and an important team role, despite olb31 thinking relievers are just guys that can't hack it as a starter.
Of course? Still sounds like you care about pitch count just as much as Roberts. Just your arbitrary number may be a little higher than his. Its still the same approach.
Sometimes the catcher will tell the mgr. in the dugout that so and so is losing curve or fastball etc. and may have x number of pitches left. The mgr. then can decide when to pull based on batters coming up and what pitches they like to hit. Sometimes has nothing to do with pitch count. Pitching coaches have great influence on mgr. deceisions.
Yeah Ron, 69 pitches is the same as 125. I guess you think making $69,000 is the same as making $125,000. It's all just numbers, right?
Well yeah. 69 pitches to one pitcher may be the same to 125 pitches to another pitcher.
You keep saying you don't care about pitch count, yet every post of yours includes a pitch count number that you'd abide to.
Why did you choose 125 pitches as your number? (You know, the number you don't care about. LOL)
And since you're being silly...it would depend where that money is spent.
Me spending $69,000US in Bulgaria would be the same as you spending $125,000US in the US.
Sometimes they change pitchers just because they don't like the matchup. Don't have to wait till your guy gets shelled.
Millionaire players not doing their job, and the manager gets blamed. If they succeed, suddenly the manager's decision was genius. Always been that way.
kershaw 1 hitter through 6. 79 pitches. roberts took him out. lets see what happens.
Looks like it worked last night. Although the bull pen struggled some. I personally believe to keep the bull pen fresh, Have Kershaw go 1 more. But it worked.
Sorry to hear that. I know you were conflicted between seeing your Dodgers win and them blowing the game so you can dump on Roberts some more. LOL
Fair to question why he would ever put in Bickford. How is that guy in the League? Nearly 7 ERA?
What was his pitch count in 2/3 innings with 3 walks and 2 strikeouts? LOL
I think Bickford has been injured a lot of the season. In the past he has been pretty good. I haven't looked at the numbers though. Just watched him pitch. They've been using him as a closer lately. They had more specialized closers before.
Interestingly, I think Pujols hit #700 off Bickford. They blacked out the game that night.
I'd suggest giving Roberts a break. Managing is about anticipating the future - there isn't a single manager I can think of who isn't subject to this kind of criticism.
Of course, second-guessing managers is a national sport in itself.
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
Urias, first day back from injury, struggled today.
A lot of softly hit balls and a couple of close plays at the plate that could have gone either way led to a 5-run first inning for the Royals.
Perez's RBI has to be just about one of the weakest I've ever seen him collect. The second baseman was covering with the runner stealing, and Perez hit a weak little popper that softly landed barely in the grass where the second baseman would have been positioned, and the run scored.
I'm surprised the league allowed the second baseman to cover.
Next rule change: no one can move unless the batter swings. LOL
Did the league say the catcher can no longer block the plate?
That catcher is soft. Those runs would not have scored if Scioscia was behind the plate.
The Dodgers have had 6 starters go down this year, in some form or another. Plus at least 2 bullpen guys. It's either really bad luck or the ORganization isn't "managing" the pitching correctly. Maybe a combination of both. The pitch counts , 5 starters, number of innings, where supposed to help the pitchers longevity, but at least for the Dodgers, it's not.
Walker - 2 tommy's
Dustin - 2 Tommy's
Noah - basically done
Gonsolin - treading water
Kershaw - good but unbelievably fragile (on the IR again)
Julio - hanging in there
They should have kept Anderson.
The bullpen has been great for the last two - three weeks. Maybe Roberts plan of pitching the heck out of them is working. Looks good right now. Still need to find another starter.
Pitching the heck out of them?
So since my last rant before the all-star break, the team has played great. the acquisitions do to. Let's hope the pitchers stay healthy.
dodgers about to go down 2-0. now it's not totally roberts fault that the pitching all had tommy joihn surgeries, but it's a common theme. win 100+ and division and fall flat in the playoffs. looking like bobby cox at the moment.
The Urias situation is a real downer.
Pitching aside, all of the fielders are great.
two 100 hundred win seasons, 1-6 in the playoffs. Not good.
Back to where we left off last year. 5-0 lead and then go to all the sorry relief pitchers. Starting pitcher gave up 2 hits in 5. He should have gone at least 7. 5 innings out of your starters is pee wee league. That should have been an easy win.
I have a feeling Mookie may best Ohtani in the production department. Could be too early to make that view, but I will commit to it.
broken record in LA tonight.
time to try another manager in LA?
We're in 1st.
they are always in first. but not at the end of the playoffs. and right now things look a little dicey. 7 pitchers are hurt.
dodgers just dropped back to back home series and have lost 3 out of the last 4 series overall. maybe if they can lose a few more series someone in dodgerville will open their eyes. bordering on horrific, imo. hitting is awful.
I think a lot of what's going on right now stems from Lux hurting his knee. Well, and all the injured pitchers.
Real early in the season. Maybe guys healing up will give the team some fuel later in the season.
You are definitely an optimistic person, which is good. I usually steer toward the negative a little too much, Still not high on Roberts.
dodgers are falling apart .they have lost 7 of the last 9. 2-6 on the current 9 game homestand. hard for people to keep taking up for this total ineptness,
Good one today. Dodgers 10 Mets 0. 8 shutout innings from the starter.
There’s a 80% chance of slugging when Houser is on the mound. He was a tough spot in the rotation for Brewers fans for years.
Like the 8 innings. VT had a big league over Duke yesterday in the 7, then the relievers gave up 9 runs in 2 2/3 innings. And VT lost. I am just no a huge bullpen guy. Obviously if you have Sutter or Eck or Rivera -- then its a no brainer, but theses middle relief guys just are not very dependable at any level.
Pro starters should give you at least 6 preferably 7 every outing.
Winning the WS requires multiple factors, injuries, September trades and call ups, hot streaks, especially toward the end of the season, etc. and more other significant factors. One odd one that can really help is when another WS opponent loses a good player and Atlanta losing Strider qualifies.
olb - you are stuck on this one, just ask the Dallas fans with McCarthy.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I dont really understand why they pulled the starter Sunday. He had a 10 run lead. His pitch count wasn't very high. I can see them thinking, it's early in the season, why push him. Maybe he didn't care about the complete game shutout and wanted out? I would think that would be an accomplishment a pitcher would want on the list.
the dude tonight is looking ok. knack. of course the bottom of the lineup is hitting so that helps.
Lux had a good game hitting and fielding at 2nd. Smith 4 for 6. All 3 pitchers did well. The guy who pitched the 9th was interesting to watch.
Wow this thread started in 2021 about how bad Dave Roberts is as a manager and nothing has changed. He is consistent
I missed the ninth, but Knack did well. And the hitting looked much better.
Buehler back tonight. Hopefully he can get 5 innings. Roberts starting to pitch the starters longer and it's helping everybody.
They're getting huge value out of guys they probably didn't expect so much value out of offensively. Every guy in the lineup is crushing it. Firing on all cylinders. Long way to go.