@FirstBeard said:
Agree - Roberts is a joke. He has had a decade plus of amazing teams and only one ring. Dusty Baker did the same thing to great SF, CIN, and WAS teams.
just have to see what baker does with the astros this season. they have a real good shot at another world series and this may be the astros last shot as it is only a matter of time before they cannot afford to keep all of there players.
Embarrassing, a team that wins 111 games can only win ONE playoff game, especially againt the team they dominated in the regular season. Roberts needs to go but not happening. 3 100 win teams in the NL and 2 under 90 win teams playing for title.
@FirstBeard said:
Agree - Roberts is a joke. He has had a decade plus of amazing teams and only one ring. Dusty Baker did the same thing to great SF, CIN, and WAS teams.
You could probably say the same about Bobby Cox winning only 1 with the Braves, but there aren’t any epic meltdowns that come to mind with his teams.
@FirstBeard said:
Agree - Roberts is a joke. He has had a decade plus of amazing teams and only one ring. Dusty Baker did the same thing to great SF, CIN, and WAS teams.
You could probably say the same about Bobby Cox winning only 1 with the Braves, but there aren’t any epic meltdowns that come to mind with his teams.
Nice comparison. Bobby Cox took the Braves to 5 World Series in a 9 year span. Roberts has taken the dodgers to 3 in 7. If he can take them to the next 2, he will live up to Bobby.
took 1 game for roberts to f it up again. Dustin may had a 3 hitter and had got 8 straight people out, so the logical thing to do for this idiot is to take him out. They then promptly put in Vesia, who is a below average relief pitcher and they lose. This is the story of Roberts coaching career. It's cost Kershaw about 15 - 20 wins over the years.
Roberts is just a robot. looks at pitch count and who's listed next on the pitch roster and just goes with it. No thought, no manager instincts.
@olb31 said:
took 1 game for roberts to f it up again. Dustin may had a 3 hitter and had got 8 straight people out, so the logical thing to do for this idiot is to take him out. They then promptly put in Vesia, who is a below average relief pitcher and they lose. This is the story of Roberts coaching career. It's cost Kershaw about 15 - 20 wins over the years.
Roberts is just a robot. looks at pitch count and who's listed next on the pitch roster and just goes with it. No thought, no manager instincts.
So today Urias could have/should have pitched. The dodgers had a day off Wednesday. Instead they pitched Grove. He got hammered. Roberts doesn't even pretend to want to win. His handbook on how not to coach said pitch the 5th pitcher and he went with it.
Looks like a long year. Or at least Gonsonlin gets back. Urias and May look sharp. the rest look average or worse.
Agree, gonna be a long year. Small sample size but when you start 3-5 against the D-backs averaging giving up 10 rpg the last 3 it is not good. Dodgers have 3 hitters you can usually depend on. Outside of those 3 the quality goes way down. Way too many inexperienced starters and too many veterans that are just awful. Roberts continues to be a mystery. The other night in a close game he brings in Jackson and lets him get pounded for 5 runs. If not for a baserunning error the D-backs would still be batting. Yesterday he leaves Grove in to get pummeled so no chance of a comeback.
saw a stat last night during the cardinals game that the dodgers had blown 9 leads this season. of course that is tops in MLB. not surprising. kind of goes along with the thread.
Went to a site called dodgersnation and most of the people chiming in are blaming Roberts for the last several games. Roberts blamed the bullpen. But according to the stats, he should have never put a couple of the pitchers in and the columnist said he should leave his relief pitchers in longer, if they have a successful inning.
dodger rookie throws a no-hitter through 6, roberts promply removes him like an idiot, and the dodgers bull pen promptly blows their 5th game out of the last 9.
I don't think they should have traded Jansen 2 years ago.
I have been watching most of the Dodgers games for the past 3 years, this stretch. It seems to me that they're going through a ton of pitchers. It seems to me like a pretty high percentage of pitchers are having surgery relatively early in their careers. It almost seems like they bring these guys in to throw as hard as they can for a pretty short time. Like there is a line out the door of guys who can pitch.
You can't have a scouting report on a guy who you've never seen.
Dodger's lack of a shortstop is probably hurting them pretty bad. They went from having Turner and Lux to having no Turner and injured Lux.
This isn't something I really know about. So, don't flame me bro.
I feel your pain, here in NY Boone does the same thing. The other day Cole was pitching a strong game and the Yanks were winning and sure enough the seventh inning starts and he takes Cole out. Of course the bullpen comes in and blows the game.
Cardinal fans, myself included, say the same things about Marmol. I refer to him as a 'manager by number' - regardless of what is actually occurring on the field he strictly adheres to their analytics book.
@STLKabong said:
Cardinal fans, myself included, say the same things about Marmol. I refer to him as a 'manager by number' - regardless of what is actually occurring on the field he strictly adheres to their analytics book.
Man, don’t get me started. I’ve had to force myself to stop watching. I can’t watch them be winning after 7 just to watch another walk-off loss. It’s the stupidest ever.
A few days ago, Dodger pitcher making rookie debut had a no hitter in the 6th. Up 4 runs. Their garbage manager pulled him and lost the game. This guy is Dusty Baker Jr.
roberts is clearly one of the worst managers of all-time. historic proportions. with a great team, he can't win in playoffs. with a really good team, he can't win in the playoffs. with an above average team, he leads them straight to mediocrity. he has never/rarely over achieved.
and he has been handed some pretty remarkable talent over the years.
Last year the Dodgers won 111 games. 4th most wins in a season in MLB history. You can't really say Roberts is a bad manager when he did that. I think they went in to the playoffs on fumes.
This year they're playing a lot of new and young guys. Martinez, Peralta, Outman, Vargas, Heyward, Rojas. Not all rookies but all newish to the Dodgers. Guys who either weren't with the team last year or who didn't see any play last year. Right now guys hardly have set positions. Rotating all over the field. It's kind of a transition year.
Right now in MLB there isn't an active player close to breaking 3000 hits. Doesn't that seem strange? Cabrera, #1, broke 3000. But, #2 doesn't have 2100 hits.
@CardGeek said:
Right now in MLB there isn't an active player close to breaking 3000 hits. Doesn't that seem strange? Cabrera, #1, broke 3000. But, #2 doesn't have 2100 hits.
And more than 500 RBI more than second place. This is a great stat!
@CardGeek said:
Last year the Dodgers won 111 games. 4th most wins in a season in MLB history. You can't really say Roberts is a bad manager when he did that. I think they went in to the playoffs on fumes.
This year they're playing a lot of new and young guys. Martinez, Peralta, Outman, Vargas, Heyward, Rojas. Not all rookies but all newish to the Dodgers. Guys who either weren't with the team last year or who didn't see any play last year. Right now guys hardly have set positions. Rotating all over the field. It's kind of a transition year.
All good points. But....In LA it's world series or bust the last 5 or 6 years. Now this year, I will agree they stepped back from paying alot of big salaries. But Roberts use of the bullpen has cost his team that night and then cost them the next night by overusing them. Every now and then the starting pitcher needs to go 7 or 8 and a guy out of the bullpen needs to go 2 or 3. What happened to the long relievers? All of them just pitch like they are closers, one inning or less and done?
I agree it sucks that they lost that night. What if the rookie pitcher agreed it was time to leave the game? Roberts went to one of his best middle relievers. I haven't looked it up or anything, but, I think Vesia is the guy who blew the lead. Vesia, who has been good for the past couple years, seems to me to be slumping right now.
These days even the middle relief tends to go 1 inning. Once they pull the starter they tend to use a lot of relievers. Long relief is more like, the starter gets shelled and someone comes in during the 3rd or 4th. I agree when you say they all pitch like they're closers. All of these guys are throwing as hard as they can. And they use a lot of them to keep guys from throwing their arms out.
The Dodger's pitching staff is banged up. They had a pretty solid starting rotation last year. Now Dustin May is injured. He came back from Tommy John and has been on and off the injured list ever since. Walker Buehler is on the 60 day. Urias is on the 15 day. That's 3 of their best starters who are out.
Nelson, Bickford and Treinen are all good injured middle relievers. I think Bickford had been their closer in the absence of anybody better. They traded Jansen. Got Kimbrel. Kimbrel totally sucked last year and got traded away. Now they don't really have a closer.
Also, I think it was last year when they changed a rule and made rosters shorter so teams couldn't have so many pitchers. I wonder what kind of effect that is having.
Nelson, Bickford and Treinen are all good injured middle relievers. I think Bickford had been their closer in the absence of anybody better. They traded Jansen. Got Kimbrel. Kimbrel totally sucked last year and got traded away. Now they don't really have a closer.
Regardless of anything else, there is a huge difference between not re-signing a free agent and trading someone away.
@FirstBeard said:
A few days ago, Dodger pitcher making rookie debut had a no hitter in the 6th. Up 4 runs. Their garbage manager pulled him and lost the game. This guy is Dusty Baker Jr.
Ha, Dusty wasn't known for pulling pitchers early!
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@countdouglas said:
I guess there are no complaints to be had when your team, with its scrub bullpen, pitches 2 consecutive shutouts against the little brothers?
Monday they were off. Tuesday he pitched Kershaw 7. And then Wednesday he pitched all the relievers. Thursday off again. So in this case it made sense. Most of the relievers pitched once and for no more than 2 innings in 4 days. Most only pitched 1 inning.
This is the way it should be. Starter should go 6 or 7. Middle guy pitches 1 or 2 depending and then maybe a closer depending on the situation. Pitching 6 or 7 guys 4 or 5 times a week is killing the relievers arms. Counting all the warm ups these guys are throwing hundreds of pitches a week. I think the rest showed that they have capable arms in the bullpen, just don't over use them.
A MLB pitcher should be able to throw 110-115 pitches per start and go 7 innings. Holding them to 70 or 75 is just not helpful to team nor the bullpen.
@olb31 said:
A MLB pitcher should be able to throw 110-115 pitches per start and go 7 innings. Holding them to 70 or 75 is just not helpful to team nor the bullpen.
You accuse Roberts as being a robot who just looks at pitch count, but by your comment, aren't you doing the same by using arbitrary numbers of pitches and innings that you were told should be the standard?
no watch the college world series. they let their pitchers throw 100, 120 plus. and most big time pitchers are going 7 or 8 innings because they want to win. roberts goal isn't winning, it's managing the pitches, match ups, etc. he thinks it makes him look like he knows what he is doing. he's cost his team at least 8 wins this season with his comical pitching moves.
he has no idea what a complete game is. play to win. keep the bullpen fresh.
if you play 20 minutes a game in basketball and then the playoffs start and they need you to play 35 - 40, you won't be able to do it. play to win all the time and when it's time to step it up innings or playing time wise you will be ready.
the pitcher pitches every 5 days that's enough rest.
@olb31 said:
no watch the college world series. they let their pitchers throw 100, 120 plus.
Aside from the college vs MLB comparison, you are still focusing on an arbitrary pitch count metric that someone told you what it should be. You and Roberts are exactly the same. Whether it's 75 or 100, doesn't matter. If you had said NO number, but whether the pitcher is losing his stuff, or game situation, or catcher's opinion, etc., then I'm in agreement. Instead, you're picking a pitch count number and inning number, just like the guy you're complaining about. Would the all time greats be greats if pulled by your 100 pitch number ?
@olb31 said:
no watch the college world series. they let their pitchers throw 100, 120 plus.
Aside from the college vs MLB comparison, you are still focusing on an arbitrary pitch count metric that someone told you what it should be. You and Roberts are exactly the same. Whether it's 75 or 100, doesn't matter. If you had said NO number, but whether the pitcher is losing his stuff, or game situation, or catcher's opinion, etc., then I'm in agreement. Instead, you're picking a pitch count number and inning number, just like the guy you're complaining about. Would the all time greats be greats if pulled by your 100 pitch number ?
My 13 year old son pitched 102 pitches the other day in a travel game. His pitch count only crossed my mind when my wife said something to me. Roberts is the one that cares about pitch count, I don't. I think the starters should go a minimum of six every night, if things are looking good they should pitch the whole game.
I am not a fan of using the bullpen unless absolutely necessary. The same way LSU and Wake did Thursday. Starters go as long as possible.
The pitchers are bullpen pitchers because they aren't good enough to start.
I don't think you're giving Roberts enough credit.
There have only been 16 complete games thrown this season in all of MLB.
some coaches play to win and some play not too. Pitch counts are more important than victories for a lot of these managers. The starters get four days off after they pitch. That should be enough. In the 70's most teams only had 4 starters, never heard Seaver, Ryan or Carlton complain about it.
No, Guys arms are more important than sticking with the same pitcher. They have 162 games a season plus the postseason. The pitchers also have to live with their arms the rest of their lives.
You may not have heard it. You have seen the result of those guys from the 60s and 70's complaining about it though. You think MLB doesn't listen to those guys?
Some of these pitchers, I look at the way they throw and think to myself, "That guy is going to have a short career." But, this isn't something I know a lot about.
When I was a kid I was told that throwing breaking stuff too early in live would kill your arm. True? I don't know. Just sayin. I think it's pretty obvious that throwing as hard as you can over and over again will kill your arm.
I like to see stats pile up. I think it's cool when these guys break through in to high stat clubs. I don't like change very much. I feel like most everything I liked as a younger person has been destroyed. So, I don't like seeing baseball change. But, if guys are killing their bodies over it, while being only 30%-40% through life, I can understand.
@CardGeek said:
Sometiems I feel like im arguing with myself.
the players want to "save" their arms because of cash, not wins. how many pitchers are or were considered great because they start 28 games a year?
since 2000. how many pitchers would you consider great? kershaw? verlander? scherzer?
kershaw has won 206 games, scherzer about the same.
vida blue won 209. mark buehrle 214, reuschel 214. kevin brown 214. these guys are hardly 5 star pitchers, but that's who kershaw and scherzer are historical.
jaime moyer 269 wins and 33 complete games. maddux had 109 complete games. all of your top pitchers of all-time have a lot of complete games and played for a long-time.
you notice kershaw and scherzer are always hurt every year. even though they barely pitch 150 innings a year. and these are your top two or three pitchers historically still playing. pretty sad statistically, but they laugh all the way to the bank.
LSU pitcher 112 pitches, 8 innings and still going. they aren't interested in seeing how many below average relievers they can put in, they want to win.
@olb31 said:
no watch the college world series. they let their pitchers throw 100, 120 plus.
Aside from the college vs MLB comparison, you are still focusing on an arbitrary pitch count metric that someone told you what it should be. You and Roberts are exactly the same. Whether it's 75 or 100, doesn't matter. If you had said NO number, but whether the pitcher is losing his stuff, or game situation, or catcher's opinion, etc., then I'm in agreement. Instead, you're picking a pitch count number and inning number, just like the guy you're complaining about. Would the all time greats be greats if pulled by your 100 pitch number ?
My 13 year old son pitched 102 pitches the other day in a travel game. His pitch count only crossed my mind when my wife said something to me. Roberts is the one that cares about pitch count, I don't. I think the starters should go a minimum of six every night, if things are looking good they should pitch the whole game.
No matter the situation? Sounds even worse managing than Roberts.
First you said 100-120 pitches, now you're saying 6 innings minimum. I still don't see the difference of you using set arbitrary numbers and Roberts doing the same.
I'm not sure how you measure the success of a middle reliever. I also don't know enough about baseball to say who the great middle relievers were. Usually the starters and the closers get all the attention.
If you're a manager and you have a pitcher who consistantly mows down the opposition for 2 innings but isn't so strong in the 3rd inning. Does that make the guy a below average pitcher? Or a does it make them a great middle relief pitcher or closer? Some closers are absolutely amazing pitchers. But they only go 1 inning. I don't think that makes them below average pitchers.
Comments
just have to see what baker does with the astros this season. they have a real good shot at another world series and this may be the astros last shot as it is only a matter of time before they cannot afford to keep all of there players.
Embarrassing, a team that wins 111 games can only win ONE playoff game, especially againt the team they dominated in the regular season. Roberts needs to go but not happening. 3 100 win teams in the NL and 2 under 90 win teams playing for title.
You could probably say the same about Bobby Cox winning only 1 with the Braves, but there aren’t any epic meltdowns that come to mind with his teams.
Nice comparison. Bobby Cox took the Braves to 5 World Series in a 9 year span. Roberts has taken the dodgers to 3 in 7. If he can take them to the next 2, he will live up to Bobby.
Didn't Roberts promise a WS championship earlier this year?
took 1 game for roberts to f it up again. Dustin may had a 3 hitter and had got 8 straight people out, so the logical thing to do for this idiot is to take him out. They then promptly put in Vesia, who is a below average relief pitcher and they lose. This is the story of Roberts coaching career. It's cost Kershaw about 15 - 20 wins over the years.
Roberts is just a robot. looks at pitch count and who's listed next on the pitch roster and just goes with it. No thought, no manager instincts.
We were at the game. Even worse in person.
So today Urias could have/should have pitched. The dodgers had a day off Wednesday. Instead they pitched Grove. He got hammered. Roberts doesn't even pretend to want to win. His handbook on how not to coach said pitch the 5th pitcher and he went with it.
Looks like a long year. Or at least Gonsonlin gets back. Urias and May look sharp. the rest look average or worse.
Agree, gonna be a long year. Small sample size but when you start 3-5 against the D-backs averaging giving up 10 rpg the last 3 it is not good. Dodgers have 3 hitters you can usually depend on. Outside of those 3 the quality goes way down. Way too many inexperienced starters and too many veterans that are just awful. Roberts continues to be a mystery. The other night in a close game he brings in Jackson and lets him get pounded for 5 runs. If not for a baserunning error the D-backs would still be batting. Yesterday he leaves Grove in to get pummeled so no chance of a comeback.
He was probably saving Urias for the Giants.
saw a stat last night during the cardinals game that the dodgers had blown 9 leads this season. of course that is tops in MLB. not surprising. kind of goes along with the thread.
blew a 5 run lead tonight. took out the rookie on sunday too early. lost that one. please fire roberts, he truly sucks.
another day another loss. 4 in a row. the bullpen is in total shambles because he pitches the crap out of them.
Where's the Trading Cards & Memorabilia ???
there is none when talking about the dodgers manager. he's clearly uncollectible.
now dusty baker may be a card to get. great manager and a good player.
roberts was a below average player and a worse manager. don't buy any.
Went to a site called dodgersnation and most of the people chiming in are blaming Roberts for the last several games. Roberts blamed the bullpen. But according to the stats, he should have never put a couple of the pitchers in and the columnist said he should leave his relief pitchers in longer, if they have a successful inning.
Roberts just burns the bullpen out.
dodger rookie throws a no-hitter through 6, roberts promply removes him like an idiot, and the dodgers bull pen promptly blows their 5th game out of the last 9.
pitch count 89.
Dodgers pitching plauged by injuries.
I don't think they should have traded Jansen 2 years ago.
I have been watching most of the Dodgers games for the past 3 years, this stretch. It seems to me that they're going through a ton of pitchers. It seems to me like a pretty high percentage of pitchers are having surgery relatively early in their careers. It almost seems like they bring these guys in to throw as hard as they can for a pretty short time. Like there is a line out the door of guys who can pitch.
You can't have a scouting report on a guy who you've never seen.
Dodger's lack of a shortstop is probably hurting them pretty bad. They went from having Turner and Lux to having no Turner and injured Lux.
This isn't something I really know about. So, don't flame me bro.
I feel your pain, here in NY Boone does the same thing. The other day Cole was pitching a strong game and the Yanks were winning and sure enough the seventh inning starts and he takes Cole out. Of course the bullpen comes in and blows the game.
Cardinal fans, myself included, say the same things about Marmol. I refer to him as a 'manager by number' - regardless of what is actually occurring on the field he strictly adheres to their analytics book.
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Man, don’t get me started. I’ve had to force myself to stop watching. I can’t watch them be winning after 7 just to watch another walk-off loss. It’s the stupidest ever.
A few days ago, Dodger pitcher making rookie debut had a no hitter in the 6th. Up 4 runs. Their garbage manager pulled him and lost the game. This guy is Dusty Baker Jr.
I wonder how Nolan Ryan's arm feels.
roberts is clearly one of the worst managers of all-time. historic proportions. with a great team, he can't win in playoffs. with a really good team, he can't win in the playoffs. with an above average team, he leads them straight to mediocrity. he has never/rarely over achieved.
and he has been handed some pretty remarkable talent over the years.
Last year the Dodgers won 111 games. 4th most wins in a season in MLB history. You can't really say Roberts is a bad manager when he did that. I think they went in to the playoffs on fumes.
This year they're playing a lot of new and young guys. Martinez, Peralta, Outman, Vargas, Heyward, Rojas. Not all rookies but all newish to the Dodgers. Guys who either weren't with the team last year or who didn't see any play last year. Right now guys hardly have set positions. Rotating all over the field. It's kind of a transition year.
Right now in MLB there isn't an active player close to breaking 3000 hits. Doesn't that seem strange? Cabrera, #1, broke 3000. But, #2 doesn't have 2100 hits.
I miss the 70's and 80's Dodgers.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
And more than 500 RBI more than second place. This is a great stat!
All good points. But....In LA it's world series or bust the last 5 or 6 years. Now this year, I will agree they stepped back from paying alot of big salaries. But Roberts use of the bullpen has cost his team that night and then cost them the next night by overusing them. Every now and then the starting pitcher needs to go 7 or 8 and a guy out of the bullpen needs to go 2 or 3. What happened to the long relievers? All of them just pitch like they are closers, one inning or less and done?
I agree it sucks that they lost that night. What if the rookie pitcher agreed it was time to leave the game? Roberts went to one of his best middle relievers. I haven't looked it up or anything, but, I think Vesia is the guy who blew the lead. Vesia, who has been good for the past couple years, seems to me to be slumping right now.
These days even the middle relief tends to go 1 inning. Once they pull the starter they tend to use a lot of relievers. Long relief is more like, the starter gets shelled and someone comes in during the 3rd or 4th. I agree when you say they all pitch like they're closers. All of these guys are throwing as hard as they can. And they use a lot of them to keep guys from throwing their arms out.
The Dodger's pitching staff is banged up. They had a pretty solid starting rotation last year. Now Dustin May is injured. He came back from Tommy John and has been on and off the injured list ever since. Walker Buehler is on the 60 day. Urias is on the 15 day. That's 3 of their best starters who are out.
Nelson, Bickford and Treinen are all good injured middle relievers. I think Bickford had been their closer in the absence of anybody better. They traded Jansen. Got Kimbrel. Kimbrel totally sucked last year and got traded away. Now they don't really have a closer.
Also, I think it was last year when they changed a rule and made rosters shorter so teams couldn't have so many pitchers. I wonder what kind of effect that is having.
Regardless of anything else, there is a huge difference between not re-signing a free agent and trading someone away.
You're right.
Kershaw pitched a great game tonight.
Ha, Dusty wasn't known for pulling pitchers early!
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I guess there are no complaints to be had when your team, with its scrub bullpen, pitches 2 consecutive shutouts against the little brothers?
Monday they were off. Tuesday he pitched Kershaw 7. And then Wednesday he pitched all the relievers. Thursday off again. So in this case it made sense. Most of the relievers pitched once and for no more than 2 innings in 4 days. Most only pitched 1 inning.
This is the way it should be. Starter should go 6 or 7. Middle guy pitches 1 or 2 depending and then maybe a closer depending on the situation. Pitching 6 or 7 guys 4 or 5 times a week is killing the relievers arms. Counting all the warm ups these guys are throwing hundreds of pitches a week. I think the rest showed that they have capable arms in the bullpen, just don't over use them.
A MLB pitcher should be able to throw 110-115 pitches per start and go 7 innings. Holding them to 70 or 75 is just not helpful to team nor the bullpen.
You accuse Roberts as being a robot who just looks at pitch count, but by your comment, aren't you doing the same by using arbitrary numbers of pitches and innings that you were told should be the standard?
no watch the college world series. they let their pitchers throw 100, 120 plus. and most big time pitchers are going 7 or 8 innings because they want to win. roberts goal isn't winning, it's managing the pitches, match ups, etc. he thinks it makes him look like he knows what he is doing. he's cost his team at least 8 wins this season with his comical pitching moves.
he has no idea what a complete game is. play to win. keep the bullpen fresh.
if you play 20 minutes a game in basketball and then the playoffs start and they need you to play 35 - 40, you won't be able to do it. play to win all the time and when it's time to step it up innings or playing time wise you will be ready.
the pitcher pitches every 5 days that's enough rest.
I don't think you're giving Roberts enough credit.
There have only been 16 complete games thrown this season in all of MLB.
They're trying to save guys arms. So they will be able to sleep at night when they're 50-90 years old. It's not the same game it was 20 years ago.
Koufax is 87 now. There has been a lot of data collected since the 1960s.
As far as the 20 minutes a game goes. These guys are playing baseball all the time. Not just during official games.
Aside from the college vs MLB comparison, you are still focusing on an arbitrary pitch count metric that someone told you what it should be. You and Roberts are exactly the same. Whether it's 75 or 100, doesn't matter. If you had said NO number, but whether the pitcher is losing his stuff, or game situation, or catcher's opinion, etc., then I'm in agreement. Instead, you're picking a pitch count number and inning number, just like the guy you're complaining about. Would the all time greats be greats if pulled by your 100 pitch number ?
My 13 year old son pitched 102 pitches the other day in a travel game. His pitch count only crossed my mind when my wife said something to me. Roberts is the one that cares about pitch count, I don't. I think the starters should go a minimum of six every night, if things are looking good they should pitch the whole game.
I am not a fan of using the bullpen unless absolutely necessary. The same way LSU and Wake did Thursday. Starters go as long as possible.
The pitchers are bullpen pitchers because they aren't good enough to start.
From Cardgeek:
I don't think you're giving Roberts enough credit.
There have only been 16 complete games thrown this season in all of MLB.
some coaches play to win and some play not too. Pitch counts are more important than victories for a lot of these managers. The starters get four days off after they pitch. That should be enough. In the 70's most teams only had 4 starters, never heard Seaver, Ryan or Carlton complain about it.
No, Guys arms are more important than sticking with the same pitcher. They have 162 games a season plus the postseason. The pitchers also have to live with their arms the rest of their lives.
You may not have heard it. You have seen the result of those guys from the 60s and 70's complaining about it though. You think MLB doesn't listen to those guys?
Some of these pitchers, I look at the way they throw and think to myself, "That guy is going to have a short career." But, this isn't something I know a lot about.
When I was a kid I was told that throwing breaking stuff too early in live would kill your arm. True? I don't know. Just sayin. I think it's pretty obvious that throwing as hard as you can over and over again will kill your arm.
I like to see stats pile up. I think it's cool when these guys break through in to high stat clubs. I don't like change very much. I feel like most everything I liked as a younger person has been destroyed. So, I don't like seeing baseball change. But, if guys are killing their bodies over it, while being only 30%-40% through life, I can understand.
Surely you've seen the data that pitchers are much less effective facing the same batter a third time?
Sometiems I feel like im arguing with myself.
the players want to "save" their arms because of cash, not wins. how many pitchers are or were considered great because they start 28 games a year?
since 2000. how many pitchers would you consider great? kershaw? verlander? scherzer?
kershaw has won 206 games, scherzer about the same.
vida blue won 209. mark buehrle 214, reuschel 214. kevin brown 214. these guys are hardly 5 star pitchers, but that's who kershaw and scherzer are historical.
jaime moyer 269 wins and 33 complete games. maddux had 109 complete games. all of your top pitchers of all-time have a lot of complete games and played for a long-time.
you notice kershaw and scherzer are always hurt every year. even though they barely pitch 150 innings a year. and these are your top two or three pitchers historically still playing. pretty sad statistically, but they laugh all the way to the bank.
seaver 16 seasons ryan 14 seasons of 200 IP.
scherzer and kershaw combined have 11.
LSU pitcher 112 pitches, 8 innings and still going. they aren't interested in seeing how many below average relievers they can put in, they want to win.
No matter the situation? Sounds even worse managing than Roberts.
First you said 100-120 pitches, now you're saying 6 innings minimum. I still don't see the difference of you using set arbitrary numbers and Roberts doing the same.
As long as one of you is winning.
I'm not sure how you measure the success of a middle reliever. I also don't know enough about baseball to say who the great middle relievers were. Usually the starters and the closers get all the attention.
If you're a manager and you have a pitcher who consistantly mows down the opposition for 2 innings but isn't so strong in the 3rd inning. Does that make the guy a below average pitcher? Or a does it make them a great middle relief pitcher or closer? Some closers are absolutely amazing pitchers. But they only go 1 inning. I don't think that makes them below average pitchers.