The Roger Burdette Collection

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Zoins
Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited April 4, 2023 7:29PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I was following some of Roger's posts and was pleasantly surprised to see him post a coin of his to share.

RWB said:
Here's a 1-sovereign equivalent disc that I own. Obverse is mostly PL around the inscription and reverse is PL in untextured areas. The "grade" is MS-64, but it's one of the best I've found. I'd love to find an equivalent condition 4-sovereign piece.

Yes, I "overpaid" for the disc because I wanted quality and not merely some paper label. The owner of the 1933 DE will fully understand.



Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
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  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2023 8:27PM
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    I don't know that's his inclination. After all, the Burdette-Leidman Collection of Gould and INCO patterns was slabbed when it was sold by Heritage. The RB numbers on the inserts were a nice touch.

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • Smudge
    Smudge Posts: 10,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I gotta get me one of those.

  • keyman64
    keyman64 Posts: 15,650 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    This was gifted to me by RWB back in the day.

    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner. :smile:
  • Martin
    Martin Posts: 999 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Ok. So what is that. And where do you find one?
    Thanks
    Martin

  • Martin
    Martin Posts: 999 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Ok just looked
    Up the cert. for 4k and a
    Pop of three I think I’m out
    Martin

  • Martin
    Martin Posts: 999 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @TomB
    Thanks for the info
    It is cool looking. I was hoping for more than just a few of them
    Around
    Thanks again Tom

    Martin

  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2023 10:04PM
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    @Martin said:
    It is cool looking. I was hoping for more than just a few of them

    There were 121,364 of these minted in 1947 so it's a numismatic loss that there are so few survivors.

    Read more in this article by John Paul Koning:

    https://www.bullionstar.us/blogs/jp-koning/why-us-mint-once-issued-gold-discs-saudi-arabia/

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @TomB said:

    @Martin said:
    Ok. So what is that. And where do you find one?
    Thanks
    Martin

    They are Saudi Arabia Sovereign and the Philadelphia mint made these at least partially to satisfy the demands of the Saudi government to be paid in gold for oil rights or deliveries. They are post-WWII, but I am not certain if they are only pre-1950 or were also produced in the 1950s. They have slightly less weight in gold content than a US quarter eagle. Nice ones like the one posted in the OP are likely in the $3-6K range.

    You mean Half Eagle.

    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • coinsarefun
    coinsarefun Posts: 21,781 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    That is one of the nicest I’ve ever seen. It drips quality. One day I will own one.
    Not sure it will be as beautiful as his but I will hope to find one as nice!

    CoinsAreFun Pictorials Album FOR SALE SOME will mark final ones before auction
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    CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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    Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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    More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC FOR SALE
  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    These have been discussed often here over the years. I have never owned one, but saw two at coin shows in the Seattle area when I lived there. Cheers, RickO

  • jt88
    jt88 Posts: 3,564 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    It is good to have one of those gold coin in collection. I have been trying to get one with good price. Will get one sooner or later.

  • dcarr
    dcarr Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    There are some pretty good fakes of these out there, so be sure to know what you are looking at before buying one uncertified.

    Moonlight Mint
  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2023 7:14PM
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    @dcarr said:
    There are some pretty good fakes of these out there, so be sure to know what you are looking at before buying one uncertified.

    Good to call out. Here's some info on the counterfeits. Insider provided some nice close up images in the thread below.

    Here's some info on the counterfeits from CoinWeek:

    CoinWeek said:
    In 1947, Aramco contracted for 121,364 smaller bullion coins with the same design, but weighing just 123.27 grains. Those coins actually saw some popular use in Saudi Arabia and traded for about $12, or 40 silver Saudi riyals. But the popularity declined after Swiss and Lebanese counterfeiters began striking coins that were similar but less valuable.

    Photo of a counterfeit from Coin World.

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • BillJones
    BillJones Posts: 35,933 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @TomB said:

    @Martin said:
    Ok. So what is that. And where do you find one?
    Thanks
    Martin

    They are Saudi Arabia Sovereign and the Philadelphia mint made these at least partially to satisfy the demands of the Saudi government to be paid in gold for oil rights or deliveries. They are post-WWII, but I am not certain if they are only pre-1950 or were also produced in the 1950s. They have slightly less weight in gold content than a US quarter eagle. Nice ones like the one posted in the OP are likely in the $3-6K range.

    That odd because when I wrote an essay about these pieces which came to the same conclusion. Roger disagreed with me.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2023 7:20AM
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    Here's another counterfeit from ATS where this is listed as the 21st most popular counterfeit coin:

    https://www.ngccoin.in/resources/counterfeit-detection/top/world/21/

    ATS said:
    Most Common Types of Counterfeits:

    • Transfer-die counterfeit

    Summary:
    These pieces have an extremely interesting history. While not technically considered coins, they were struck by the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia in order to satisfy the debts owed to Saudi Arabia’s Arabian American Oil Company, or ARAMCO. They weigh the exact same amount as the British gold sovereign, which was extremely popular at the time. This interesting history, along with a relatively simplistic design and high value, has made these pieces a popular target for counterfeiters.

    Diagnostic Tips:

    • The genuine examples of this type feature fields that consist of numerous bumps in an almost pebble-like pattern. Fakes also show this design, but it can be weaker and often fades out by the letters. A lack of this texture near the letters is a red flag that the piece could be fake.
    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2023 8:37AM
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    @BillJones said:
    Here are the two pieces that are in my collection. It was illegal to own these before the gold ownership restrictions were lifted in the 1970s. That didn't stop some dealers from selling them.

    These are great looking specimens. Thanks for posting these @BillJones!

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Regarding these pieces in the US today for collectors, did they all come back from Saudi Arabia or were some made available to collectors directly from inside the US?

    Also, when did the collecting community first learn of these?

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • BillJones
    BillJones Posts: 35,933 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Zoins said:
    Regarding these pieces in the US today for collectors, did they all come back from Saudi Arabia or were some made available to collectors directly from inside the US?

    Also, when did the collecting community first learn of these?

    It was not legal for U.S. citizens to own these pieces when they were issued. None were sold to Americans at the time of issue.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2023 8:51PM
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    @BillJones said:

    @Zoins said:
    Regarding these pieces in the US today for collectors, did they all come back from Saudi Arabia or were some made available to collectors directly from inside the US?

    Also, when did the collecting community first learn of these?

    It was not legal for U.S. citizens to own these pieces when they were issued. None were sold to Americans at the time of issue.

    Is it fair to say that anything in collector hands today went to Saudi Arabia first?

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • oreville
    oreville Posts: 12,399 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Interesting!!

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • mvs7
    mvs7 Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Here was the explanation of these disks using some research by Roger, in one of the previous threads on these pieces:

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12851467#Comment_12851467

  • BillJones
    BillJones Posts: 35,933 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Zoins said:

    @BillJones said:

    @Zoins said:
    Regarding these pieces in the US today for collectors, did they all come back from Saudi Arabia or were some made available to collectors directly from inside the US?

    Also, when did the collecting community first learn of these?

    It was not legal for U.S. citizens to own these pieces when they were issued. None were sold to Americans at the time of issue.

    Is it fair to say that anything in collector hands today went to Saudi Arabia first?

    I would say yes, although to be cynical, things can happen when you have the right connections in high places. Still, I doubt that collectors would have been clamoring for these pieces. Their designs were not going to get any awards. You might call them “utilitarian.”

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?

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