The Roger Burdette Collection

Zoins

I was following some of Roger's posts and was pleasantly surprised to see him post a coin of his to share.

RWB said:
Here's a 1-sovereign equivalent disc that I own. Obverse is mostly PL around the inscription and reverse is PL in untextured areas. The "grade" is MS-64, but it's one of the best I've found. I'd love to find an equivalent condition 4-sovereign piece.

Yes, I "overpaid" for the disc because I wanted quality and not merely some paper label. The owner of the 1933 DE will fully understand.

coinbuf

How ironic that one of the most anti TPG people in the world has a PCGS graded item.

Zoins

I don't know that's his inclination. After all, the Burdette-Leidman Collection of Gould and INCO patterns was slabbed when it was sold by Heritage. The RB numbers on the inserts were a nice touch.

Smudge

I gotta get me one of those.

keyman64

This was gifted to me by RWB back in the day.

Martin

Ok. So what is that. And where do you find one?
Thanks
Martin

Martin

Ok just looked
Up the cert. for 4k and a
Pop of three I think I’m out
Martin

TomB

@Martin said:
Ok. So what is that. And where do you find one?
Thanks
Martin

They are Saudi Arabia Sovereign and the Philadelphia mint made these at least partially to satisfy the demands of the Saudi government to be paid in gold for oil rights or deliveries. They are post-WWII, but I am not certain if they are only pre-1950 or were also produced in the 1950s. They have slightly less weight in gold content than a US quarter eagle. Nice ones like the one posted in the OP are likely in the $3-6K range.

Martin

@TomB
Thanks for the info
It is cool looking. I was hoping for more than just a few of them
Around
Thanks again Tom

Martin

Zoins

@Martin said:
It is cool looking. I was hoping for more than just a few of them

There were 121,364 of these minted in 1947 so it's a numismatic loss that there are so few survivors.

Read more in this article by John Paul Koning:

https://www.bullionstar.us/blogs/jp-koning/why-us-mint-once-issued-gold-discs-saudi-arabia/

CaptHenway

@TomB said:

@Martin said:
Ok. So what is that. And where do you find one?
Thanks
Martin

They are Saudi Arabia Sovereign and the Philadelphia mint made these at least partially to satisfy the demands of the Saudi government to be paid in gold for oil rights or deliveries. They are post-WWII, but I am not certain if they are only pre-1950 or were also produced in the 1950s. They have slightly less weight in gold content than a US quarter eagle. Nice ones like the one posted in the OP are likely in the $3-6K range.

You mean Half Eagle.

coinsarefun

That is one of the nicest I’ve ever seen. It drips quality. One day I will own one.
Not sure it will be as beautiful as his but I will hope to find one as nice!

lkeigwin

Here's a PCGS XF40 large cent I bought from RWB in 2011. Nice coin. Fun denomination SNAFU.
Lance.

ricko

These have been discussed often here over the years. I have never owned one, but saw two at coin shows in the Seattle area when I lived there. Cheers, RickO

jt88

It is good to have one of those gold coin in collection. I have been trying to get one with good price. Will get one sooner or later.

dcarr

There are some pretty good fakes of these out there, so be sure to know what you are looking at before buying one uncertified.

Zoins

@dcarr said:
There are some pretty good fakes of these out there, so be sure to know what you are looking at before buying one uncertified.

Good to call out. Here's some info on the counterfeits. Insider provided some nice close up images in the thread below.

Here's some info on the counterfeits from CoinWeek:

CoinWeek said:
In 1947, Aramco contracted for 121,364 smaller bullion coins with the same design, but weighing just 123.27 grains. Those coins actually saw some popular use in Saudi Arabia and traded for about $12, or 40 silver Saudi riyals. But the popularity declined after Swiss and Lebanese counterfeiters began striking coins that were similar but less valuable.

• Thread: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1017188/saudi-arabia-gold-disc-counterfeit-genuine-comparison
• CoinWeek: https://coinweek.com/coins/unique-unusual/unusual-items-us-mint-gold-disks-made-for-oil-payments-to-saudi-arabia/
• Coin World: https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/inside-coin-world-saudi-arabia-gold-disks-are-counterfeited

Photo of a counterfeit from Coin World.

BillJones

@TomB said:

@Martin said:
Ok. So what is that. And where do you find one?
Thanks
Martin

They are Saudi Arabia Sovereign and the Philadelphia mint made these at least partially to satisfy the demands of the Saudi government to be paid in gold for oil rights or deliveries. They are post-WWII, but I am not certain if they are only pre-1950 or were also produced in the 1950s. They have slightly less weight in gold content than a US quarter eagle. Nice ones like the one posted in the OP are likely in the $3-6K range.

That odd because when I wrote an essay about these pieces which came to the same conclusion. Roger disagreed with me.

Zoins

Here's another counterfeit from ATS where this is listed as the 21st most popular counterfeit coin:

https://www.ngccoin.in/resources/counterfeit-detection/top/world/21/

ATS said:
Most Common Types of Counterfeits:

• Transfer-die counterfeit

Summary:
These pieces have an extremely interesting history. While not technically considered coins, they were struck by the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia in order to satisfy the debts owed to Saudi Arabia’s Arabian American Oil Company, or ARAMCO. They weigh the exact same amount as the British gold sovereign, which was extremely popular at the time. This interesting history, along with a relatively simplistic design and high value, has made these pieces a popular target for counterfeiters.

Diagnostic Tips:

• The genuine examples of this type feature fields that consist of numerous bumps in an almost pebble-like pattern. Fakes also show this design, but it can be weaker and often fades out by the letters. A lack of this texture near the letters is a red flag that the piece could be fake.

BillJones

Here are the two pieces that are in my collection. It was illegal to own these before the gold ownership restrictions were lifted in the 1970s. That didn't stop some dealers from selling them.

Zoins

@BillJones said:
Here are the two pieces that are in my collection. It was illegal to own these before the gold ownership restrictions were lifted in the 1970s. That didn't stop some dealers from selling them.

These are great looking specimens. Thanks for posting these @BillJones!

Zoins

Regarding these pieces in the US today for collectors, did they all come back from Saudi Arabia or were some made available to collectors directly from inside the US?

Also, when did the collecting community first learn of these?

BillJones

@Zoins said:
Regarding these pieces in the US today for collectors, did they all come back from Saudi Arabia or were some made available to collectors directly from inside the US?

Also, when did the collecting community first learn of these?

It was not legal for U.S. citizens to own these pieces when they were issued. None were sold to Americans at the time of issue.

Zoins

@BillJones said:

@Zoins said:
Regarding these pieces in the US today for collectors, did they all come back from Saudi Arabia or were some made available to collectors directly from inside the US?

Also, when did the collecting community first learn of these?

It was not legal for U.S. citizens to own these pieces when they were issued. None were sold to Americans at the time of issue.

Is it fair to say that anything in collector hands today went to Saudi Arabia first?

oreville

Interesting!!

mvs7

Here was the explanation of these disks using some research by Roger, in one of the previous threads on these pieces:

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12851467#Comment_12851467

BillJones

@Zoins said:

@BillJones said:

@Zoins said:
Regarding these pieces in the US today for collectors, did they all come back from Saudi Arabia or were some made available to collectors directly from inside the US?

Also, when did the collecting community first learn of these?

It was not legal for U.S. citizens to own these pieces when they were issued. None were sold to Americans at the time of issue.

Is it fair to say that anything in collector hands today went to Saudi Arabia first?

I would say yes, although to be cynical, things can happen when you have the right connections in high places. Still, I doubt that collectors would have been clamoring for these pieces. Their designs were not going to get any awards. You might call them “utilitarian.”